1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Light Backs
Posted by: Adam Walkup (IP Logged)
Date: December 28, 2002 12:47AM
<HTML>After purchasing Edward Lafleur's 1921 Stanley, I am now trying to put it back on the road. With the help of Morris Paley, we have installed a new super heater and assembled the car. We have fired it several times, but about 80% of the time the burner will light back at the jets. Sometime it will even light back while the burner is burning. Any ideas??</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: Jeff Theobald (IP Logged)
Date: December 28, 2002 08:23AM
<HTML>Hi Adam,
Assumimg you are using the correct fuel, ( not to much 32 sec diesel ) and fuel pressure is about correct, (100 psi ) Light backs are nearly always caused by a crack in the burner plate or a hole which is big enough for the flame to burn through into the mixing area, if you drop the burner and check carefully, seal anything suspicious with fire cement, and try again, parting thought, check the flue is clear of any obstruction, hope this helps, Jeff.</HTML>
Assumimg you are using the correct fuel, ( not to much 32 sec diesel ) and fuel pressure is about correct, (100 psi ) Light backs are nearly always caused by a crack in the burner plate or a hole which is big enough for the flame to burn through into the mixing area, if you drop the burner and check carefully, seal anything suspicious with fire cement, and try again, parting thought, check the flue is clear of any obstruction, hope this helps, Jeff.</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: Pat Farrell (IP Logged)
Date: December 28, 2002 02:03PM
<HTML>If the main fuel jets are not perfectly aimed in the center of the mixing tubes, fuel vapor can be easily deflected to a hot spot for ignition. First check as Jeff suggested for the ignition point and then with the main jets shooting into the mixing tubes, see if they are centered and adjust as needed. I attended the Stanley Museum's last auction in Kingfield a couple of years ago. A fellow put his 1910 model 60 into the auction because he finally gave up on try to fight his mixing tube fires. His misalignment of one of his main jets wasn't getting all of his fuel into the mixing tube and the drifiting vapor was sneaking around to the opposite back side of the burner to where his super heater attached. It would fire from a leak there and jump back to the mixing tubes. After two years of fighting tube fires, he sold his car for a song. When I seen the burner fire from the rear and told him how come, he was sorry he sold it. If the burner grate isn't cracked, some times the fire can sneak down between the burner grate and the inter wall to a loosly fitting burner inner pan. This is rare but possible too. I happened to me in the Mt. Washington Steam Car Tour. On the road, I fire my Stanleys' burners at 140 psi. 80 psi would be a minimum when firing up from cold.</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: December 28, 2002 06:36PM
<HTML>Hi,,,Just to point out if you fire below 80#,the air bottles will not have much'ballast' If you fire at say 120-140[+] and do not maintain pressure, ,, WHEN the bottle drops below charged pressure,,,it will blow AIR down the pipe to the burner,and then will probably fire back ,EVEN IF COLD,,,,,This is one situation that will not fit some of the other rules,,,,,#2 Be SURE the pilot peep hole is closed,,[and is a decent fit],,,,Some peeps will go far enough to open on the other side of the flap ,oops ,,#3 the burner relys on cool vapor to keep the grate cool,,If it pops back and heats the grate to 750 [+] the hot iron will ignite any further attempt to fire till it cools again,,,grrr/ patience,,,#4 easy firing cold BUT lite back really awful when hot/classic sign of cracked burner,,, Hope this is[somewhat ]helpful,,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: Alan Woolf (IP Logged)
Date: December 29, 2002 12:34AM
<HTML>Adam,
If the burner nozzles are removable and seal to the heat sink with a pair of copper washers try to make sure you have no leaks at this junction. Also the advice about fuel pressure is good. Generally you will need at least 120 psi of fuel pressure. If you have a copy of a Stanley owners manual you won't go wrong following the startup procedures in the manual.
If you are using straight kersosene that may be part of the problem. I know my experience with kerosene has been that it can be finicky. If the car is allowed to stand and cool off some then relighting it can be sort of difficult (many times resulting in light back) without using the starting valve. You might try adding 5-10% unleaded to straight kerosene. Even though some of the Stanley owners run straight kero I much prefer a gasoline/diesel mix. It lights easier and is much easier to obtain out on the road.
BTW do you know if your fuel pressure gauge is accurate? It may need calibrating.
Also I have to disagree with Pat's advice about centering the nozzles on the mixing tubes. We ran our 1917 for several years with the nozzles and mixing tubes misaligned and had almost zero incidence of light back over several thousand miles of touring. It may contribute but I would rank it as a low probability.
Good luck and keep asking questions.
Alan</HTML>
If the burner nozzles are removable and seal to the heat sink with a pair of copper washers try to make sure you have no leaks at this junction. Also the advice about fuel pressure is good. Generally you will need at least 120 psi of fuel pressure. If you have a copy of a Stanley owners manual you won't go wrong following the startup procedures in the manual.
If you are using straight kersosene that may be part of the problem. I know my experience with kerosene has been that it can be finicky. If the car is allowed to stand and cool off some then relighting it can be sort of difficult (many times resulting in light back) without using the starting valve. You might try adding 5-10% unleaded to straight kerosene. Even though some of the Stanley owners run straight kero I much prefer a gasoline/diesel mix. It lights easier and is much easier to obtain out on the road.
BTW do you know if your fuel pressure gauge is accurate? It may need calibrating.
Also I have to disagree with Pat's advice about centering the nozzles on the mixing tubes. We ran our 1917 for several years with the nozzles and mixing tubes misaligned and had almost zero incidence of light back over several thousand miles of touring. It may contribute but I would rank it as a low probability.
Good luck and keep asking questions.
Alan</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: Adam Walkup (IP Logged)
Date: December 29, 2002 04:14AM
<HTML>I am running 60% diesel 40% gasoline (the same mix as Edward was running) because kersosene is not available in our area. We struggled for a while sealing the branch forks to the end of the vaporizer, but with some new copper crush washers we seem to have that problem fixed. We are starting to think that our problem is either a leak in the burner around the mixing tubes. This car has a fabricated burner that Edward made, and I did not pack around the tubes between the burner and the face plate. I am also starting to think we may have a problem around the pilot peep hole, since it does not fit well. I have ordered a Packard pilot to try in the car which will eliminate the problem of the peep hole.</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: Bill Barnes (IP Logged)
Date: December 31, 2002 11:13PM
<HTML>Between the cast iron grate and the venturi tubes there should be a piece of stainless steel that evens the flow of fuel evenly throughout the cast iron grate. Sometimes through light backs this stainless steel will become distorted--the hotter the fire gets the worse it gets. You might want to check and make sure it's ok. Good luck.</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: Dick Vennerbeck (IP Logged)
Date: January 02, 2003 02:48PM
<HTML>An easy way to check alignment of the jets to the venturi tube is to run water through the vaporizer. The exiting stream of water makes it easy to see exactly where the jets are pointed. On my car, I do this cold with a garden hose on the boiler and then open the steam "enema" on the vaporizer line.</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: January 02, 2003 08:36PM
<HTML>Hi,,,Is this one of Carl's Baker burners that makes the liquid run back out OR a Stanley type that can hold a quart or 2, or 3,, If so please tell us the good way to get the water out,,,,Buck fitted a drain plug to the black racer,,,an I added a drain fawcet !! ,,,To check alignment I run a rod through the jet holder,,,or screw it in,,,,Keep up the good work ,,,,pretty soon I hope John may consider editing and binding all this material,,,,It is certainly a sugnificant collection[[ in spite of [my ]spelli'n,,,.]] Cheers ,,Ben</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: Pat Farrell (IP Logged)
Date: January 03, 2003 05:09AM
<HTML>For a hotter fire out of your burner, you need the best distance between your main jets and the mixing tubes. I have tried many different distances. The one that I have setteled on for a hotter reliable fire is to adjust your jets the distance from your mixing tubes, the same measurment as the diameter of your mixing tube opening. This is very important..."The farther from the tube openings that you move your jets, the more critical their aim is". After the main fuel has cycled off, because the vaporized fuel hasn't much velocity, the fuel can really drift around to a hot spot for ignition then. For the most reliable fuel delivery with less light backs, set the main jet openings the distance of dead even with the face of the mixing tubes. It will give a little less heat, but there will be hardly any stray fuel out sniffing around for ignition, therefore less light backs.</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: Christopher W. Roberts (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2003 02:10AM
<HTML> In 1992 I rode in Ed LaFleur's car. It did well. I rember he had said he had a stainless steel burner grate and stainless steel tubes. The boiler may be also leaking causing a burner lightback. Also if the jets are of different size that will cause a ligt back. The aim of the jets is actually quite critical. You can probally get away with 1-2 degrees but after that it will become un usable. Also if the grate is not sealed to the burner or if there is a crack in the grate or the baffle plate has cracked it will cause problems. As to guel, on my 1922 Stanley with a baker burner I am useing strait gasoline. My vaporizer is 4' exactly. Gasoline is eerywhere and is only 1 fuel for both pilot and the main burner.
Chris</HTML>
Chris</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: Dick Vennerbeck (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2003 03:55AM
<HTML>Ben,
Thanks for the insight. It's a Baker burner....the kind that makes a puddle of burning fuel on the ground when you try to hurry things. Do you think the Stanley burner holds the fuel as a design feature? If so why? I imagine if you had a tube fire it would take a while to burn up two quarts of fuel. I also believe the brothers designed most things on purpose. Maybe I'm being naive.
Dick</HTML>
Thanks for the insight. It's a Baker burner....the kind that makes a puddle of burning fuel on the ground when you try to hurry things. Do you think the Stanley burner holds the fuel as a design feature? If so why? I imagine if you had a tube fire it would take a while to burn up two quarts of fuel. I also believe the brothers designed most things on purpose. Maybe I'm being naive.
Dick</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2003 01:59PM
<HTML>Hi Dick,,,I dont know if the feature ,,fuel to run back out if not vaporized was a Amsley feature or if it was common to original Baker design,,,i have only seen one real Baker burner[so far],,,It's a really good feature,,,I cant immagine a reason for the Stanley to collect fuel in the bottom,,,except to sell more burners,,,like the fragile engines,,,BUT they warn in the owners handbook NOT to abuse[hot rod] the car,,,,Yes a quantity of fuel in the burner is to be avoided at almost any cost,,,including time,, If you can get it lit above the grate and coax it to burn [nicely] it may burn above the boiler up the vent flap [wow] as the mixture will be too rich to burn before it gets to secondary air,,, David Nergaard talked me through this[harrowing] experience HAD my fullest attention the whole while,,,The owners book meerly says lift the hood,,dont burn the paint, prefer to do this BEFORE the 2'
flame singes the arm ,,,I'm not sure if they had nerves of steel,,,or hands on experience w/ the long gone? gasoline cook stove,,,,or was it the GASOLINE house vapor lamp system,, Pat#632376,,,,and,,632377[1899]Sweet memories of milk an'burnt cookies,,Hope i dont ramble too much here,,,we got 1 ft last nite,,,the other half will come before nitefall,,, Sat,a day off?? Cheers Ben in Maine</HTML>
flame singes the arm ,,,I'm not sure if they had nerves of steel,,,or hands on experience w/ the long gone? gasoline cook stove,,,,or was it the GASOLINE house vapor lamp system,, Pat#632376,,,,and,,632377[1899]Sweet memories of milk an'burnt cookies,,Hope i dont ramble too much here,,,we got 1 ft last nite,,,the other half will come before nitefall,,, Sat,a day off?? Cheers Ben in Maine</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: Howard Randall (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2003 08:55PM
<HTML>C.B. – Talk about your backlights! I answered an ad for a “steam engine for sale” in Foxboro, MA (older home), only to find that the unit for sale was a generator for a GASOLINE vapor house lamp (lighting) system. Yes folks, before or concurrent with natural gas lighting, you could have lights that used vaporized gasoline! When they lit back… well, you now the rest of the story.
All I could think of are those folks that dared to run Naptha marine launches. Naptha in the boiler, naptha in the burner. How did we ever survive without OSHA ?</HTML>
All I could think of are those folks that dared to run Naptha marine launches. Naptha in the boiler, naptha in the burner. How did we ever survive without OSHA ?</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2003 11:35PM
<HTML>Launch was non poluti'n,,,,it burned the exhaust,,,,dont tell osha etc Ben</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: Dick Vennerbeck (IP Logged)
Date: January 05, 2003 02:05AM
<HTML>Ben, Thanks for the enlightenment, that was no ramble. I visited my sister in Deerfield Mass during Christmas. I got the old pangs from childhood of holding a snow shovel on a blustery winter night. Fortunately those feelings passed in just a few seconds as I contemplated having to rake up the advocados on my front lawn upon my return to California.
and as Ben would say,
Cheers!
and a Happy New Year to All!
Dick</HTML>
and as Ben would say,
Cheers!
and a Happy New Year to All!
Dick</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: January 05, 2003 02:39PM
<HTML>Two of the Stanley's first patents were for "Carburetors"; gasolene vaporizing home lighting plants! They worked fairly well so long as they were used every day, with the gasolene of 1890. But heaven help you if you tried lighting a gas jet after being away for a week! You might get a large spray of liquid gsaolene.
The Naptha launches were made by Ofeldt & Co. They boiled naptha in a flash boiler, bled off some to work the burner and used the rest in an engine. The engine exhast was condensed and returned to the fuel tank, which was carefully placed at the other end of the boat. Here's the kicker: because they were not "steam", they were exempt from boiler inspections and all the other regulations of the day!</HTML>
The Naptha launches were made by Ofeldt & Co. They boiled naptha in a flash boiler, bled off some to work the burner and used the rest in an engine. The engine exhast was condensed and returned to the fuel tank, which was carefully placed at the other end of the boat. Here's the kicker: because they were not "steam", they were exempt from boiler inspections and all the other regulations of the day!</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: January 06, 2003 12:51AM
<HTML>I still dont think its a good idea to tell osha,,,CB</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: Arnoud Carp (IP Logged)
Date: January 06, 2003 02:05AM
<HTML>Because the naphta launch bled off the fuel for the burner the result of this was that preferably the lighter fractions were burned the risk of back lighting must therefore have been reducing with the time since you last replaced the full content of the fueltank.
Arnoud Carp</HTML>
Arnoud Carp</HTML>
Re: Light Backs
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: January 07, 2003 12:15AM
<HTML>I don't know what kind of burner the Ofeldt launches used, but don't think it was a "blue flame" type. I suspect it was more like a blow torch, so lightr backs were not an issue.</HTML>
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