This winter my priority steam car project was to install rear disc brakes on our 5,500 pound Stanley Mountain Wagon. The car could skid its tires when the brakes were first applied but brake fade has always been a serious problem with its brake shoe and brake band brakes. Disc brakes don't fade like shoe brakes as they are self cooling. I bought rotor hats that were designed for drum parking brakes. That way I had enough rotor hat area for my large hub bolt pattern to be drilled. The 16" diameter brake drums easily fit the finned 13" diameter rotors with in. The outside service brake band will become our emergency brake. The rotors were off of a NASCAR racing car but just about any rotor will work if it will fit inside the drum with about an inch or two to spare. I am using self centering calipers with two 2" diameter pistons in each caliper. The master cylinder is a 1965 Mustang master cylinder with a 7/8" piston. I am very anxious to see how this installation works out. The disc brakes are almost totally concealed and the safety factor is greatly improved.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 06:30PM by SSsssteamer.
Today, while I was installing the master cylinder for the disc brakes on our Mt. Wagon, I also updated our boiler's water level reflex sight glass. In addition to what Gary Hoonsbeen needed, from ductil iron, he had cast up several extra gauge bodies. I made two new gauges out of his castings. My old gauges disrupted their gauge glass gaskets too easily because the bodies were made out of brass and the brass expanded too much with the heat changes. These ductile iron gauges should be good for over 2,000 psi. It is all in making our steamers a bit more reliable. See the attachment. What shop projects did you work on today?
Well not quite today but last weekend I was turning a couple of Stanley cranks down to accept new ball races. Then I was going to turn the bearing housings for the bearings but they were too hard. So I tried a tool post grinder to see if that worked - nope, too hard. Next step is to make some new bearing housings out of bar stock!
I will now make an unashamed plea for help! Does anyone have any hook up dogs for a 20HP Stanley engine they are willing to sell, and does anyone have any internal brake shoes for nominal 12" dia brake drums (1909). And if none to sell, any to loan that I can use to copy??
Before I left for my winter travels I started a new frame for a spare 10 HP engine based on Mike Clarkís design, but added a third plate as near to the crank bearing blocks as I could. The rods are over size except for the threaded part 4340 steel 68500 yield, the plates are 4140 water cut right from my cad drawings.
Dear Jeff, There are a couple of different type of hook up dogs used on the Stanley engines. The first thing to consider is the engine size. Next is what year, 1909 is right hand hook up. I have made several hook up dogs from scratch, but first it is nice to have one in your hand to copy from. Next best would be a photo to copy one from. I purchased a couple of new cast iron Stanley brake drum castings from Alan Kelso in Pennsylvania. I am sure that he could fill your needs. Cast Iron drums are much better than the steel drums than the Stanleys came with.
Thanks Rolly, I'll contact Alan re the brakes - I was going to turn the drums out of steel blanks but it was going to be a tough exercise. It's actually the hook up dog itself I'm not sure about, I have the plate about half made. The engine is for an R so is a 20HP with the plate on the right hand side.
I donít know, Iím not that far along on the rebuilding on my spare engine. I need to build parts for my 10 HP in the spring. The engine I am building the new frame for is an early 1907 engine and has no hookup. I will be adding the hookup to match the 1908 engine. I am also going to make split connecting rods and add new bearings.
Keep us informed on your progress with the R.
Just bought this 1910 Stanley model 60. It is very complete, but in need of full restoration. It has been in a barn since 1958.It was the two previous owners had not run the car since at least 1954.
This is not first restoration project, but is my first steamer. The chassis number is #5298. I would greatly appreciate any help in identifing what items are this car are not original.
Paul Kik Sr
Dear Paul, Welcome to the stanleysteamers.com website. I am sure that your questions when presented, will be well discussed on this forum. SACA, Inc. is a worthwhile steam car club to join with its bi-monthly publication. The Stanley Museum has a quarterly newsletter that is a quality publication well worth reading. The Steam Car Club of Great Britain is also a worthwhile club to join. You have purchased an excellent investment that will test your witts with its steeplearning curve. One will also become well versed in the different trades needed in restoring and maintaining this wonderful old steam car. One never knew that he has so many friends until he has purchased his first steam car. The Stanley car and its owners will be requested at car shows, parades, tours, and more.
Today I took the Mt. Wagon out for a test run. The 30 hp engine with its brand new cylinder performed excellent with no blow by and nice crisp power. The disc brakes worked well but not excellent. I had used a master cylinder with a too small of a cylinder. The giant calipers with twin 2 " pistons in each cannot get enough fluid on each stroke to operate correctly. Two strokes of the pedal and it stops. I will upsize the diameter of the Master cylinder's piston. Maybe 1 1/16" might be a better choice? I will see what is available. I might also try adding a 2 pound pressure retaining valve to the brake line. I did notice, that the hotter that the brakes were, the better that they stopped. That is just the opposite of the old drum brakes.
The disc brake installation on our Mt. Wagon is now completed. I had to change out the 1965 Mustang 7/8" bore master cylinder to a larger Ford master cylinder with a 1" bore. The smaller master cylinder didn't have enough fluid volume to fully energized the four 2" diameter caliper pistons. The disc brakes do stop well. Unlike the drum brakes, the hotter the disc brakes get, the better they stop. The large 13" diameter air cooled NASCAR brake rotors also air cool their surrounding brake drums giving the outside emergency brake a working chance. I like that.
When the snow melts away from in front of my garage door, I will give the Mt. Wagon a good down hill run to see how the new disc brakes work out.
On the last steam car tour at Estes Park, I had some bad down hill experiences that I do not want to repeat. With as many as 12 people aboard the Mountain Wagon, it is a big responsibility to bring them all back alive.
The best part of this disc brake installation is from the outside, the Mt. Wagon still looks like it has the 16" diameter stock drum brakes. I no longer use the Stanley dust cover backing plates though.
I finally have gotten much needed work done on my steam bike machining a new ball for the throttle valve, which is just a homemade ball valve. It is now basically ready to go back on the bike. I have purchased a spare water bypass valve for it which is a Swaglok toggle valve and a bleed valve so I can blow down the boiler. I can't believe the bike has worked without it for 30 years. I still need to unplug the boiler though. I plan to use vinegar to dissolve the plug once I get the bike out of storage for the winter. I suspect its somewhere near the front of the monotube boiler where the steam becomes superheated.
I wanted to install a whistle on the bike, which a friend was kind enough to give me, but I have been unable to find a suitable valve even on Ebay that I really like for under $200. The temperature of the steam is too high to use the conventional pull to activate valves which are really only rated to 450F not 750F.
I plan to install a fuel pressure gauge and build a thermocouple/reader for the bike next. Still have to figure out where to put them
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2011 04:03AM by Stanleyguy101.
An update on my engine rebuild. I sandblasted the frame and painted it. Got the crank assembly in place with all the eccentric straps and linkage connected. Made new guides for the valve stems as this frame design requires. Installed all new 440C balls in all the races. Made up new crosshead guides and sent them out to be hardened. Canít do much more till I get them back.
Dear Rolly, It looks like a fun project that you are working on. Having made many of the same pieces, I measure "four" times and then I cut once. Things like locating the valve guides on the engine frame has always been a crap shoot for me. I have found if I have been off target a few thousands of an inch, they will soon wear them selves in. Keep us updated. Many are reading this, but they are just watching in awe of what you can do in your shop.
I think Stanleyís tolerance was + or - 0.020 or more, nothing on these engines is repetitive.
Itís a learning experience every time. The main bearing block were off by 0.0500 I made the frame square to 0.005 and had to shim the crank assembly 0.0625 to get square with the frame. One hole in the block is off by 0.0500 and is out of square to the others.
Dear Rolly, I know what you are going through with parts out of square, etc. I have bought many Stanley parts, new and vintage for our cars and I have had to weld them up and remachine them just to be able to use them. It has often a head scratcher of "what were they thinking of when they machined them like that?" Everything works so much more smoothly when the parts fit properly.
This morning I took an expansion reamer to the out of aligned hole in the block and pulled it to one side as I hand reamed it a few turns. The frame slipped right on.
The two valve rods aligned with the valve guides on the money. I did something right.
Iím still waiting for the crosshead guides to come back from the harder. The economy has put a crimp in how things get done. The company use to have a pickup and return truck in this area every other day. I could send stuff out one day and get it back on the third day now I have to UPS it out and wait for UPS to return it. Sometime ten to twelve days.
I thought I might mention a simple tool I made up from the scrap box.
These early Stanley engines have one piece connecting rods. To get them on and off you need to spread the fork end to get it separated from the piston rod. I made up this simple little double wedge assembly to do the job. Worked great.
Up date on my engine frame rebuild.
To my surprise UPS came today and dropped off my harden crosshead.
I set up the surface grinder and squared them all off and then re ground the track for the ball. Took most of the afternoon but I got them installed. Tomorrow I will test the engine on air.
Well today I finished the engine. I ran it on air and decided where I wanted the hookup to be and silver brazed the hookup notched plate in place. If its two much Iíll have to put a little heat to it and move it some but it running well and on steam should be very good.
I now have a spare engine for the EX
Well Pat it may have to be. This old mind has lots of projects buried deep down in back.
I started the drawings of the plates for the Stanley 20 HP engine. I have a few blocks and some other parts.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2011 02:04PM by Rolly.
May 7th, 2011, Merrily and I took our 1914 Stanley to the Friendly OK Car Club's annual car show in Omak, Washington. Our 1914 Stanley took home the "Best of class trophy for 1931 and earlier", and also it took home the "People's choice trophy". On May 29th, we took our 1911 Stanley model 85 to the Boulevard Park Show put on by the Bellingham Antique Auto Restorer's Club. in Bellingham, Washington. Beating out 237 other cars, our 1911 Stanley took home the "Best of Show trophy." A professional camera firm came to our house and took over 510 images of our model 85 to be used for their business. Attached is are a couple of photos taken at the different car shows.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2011 05:07PM by SSsssteamer.
When I was waiting for my crosshead to come back from being harden, I made a pattern to cast up grate bars to convert my boiler in my boat to burn wood, from steam atomized oil.
Iíve been machining these up they need to be riveted together with 3/8 rod.
Iím waiting for a shipment of 4340 7/8 rod and some plate to start work on 20 HP engine frames.
Iíve also been cleaning up some of the parts I have for the engines. I am going to have to make a lot of 7/8-18 nuts for the frames. Iím short one on one set. Never counted them before. There are 16 heavy nuts four pale nuts and four long cap nuts.
Rolly, Your shop sounds a lot like mine with round-to-it machining projects looking at you. Though out the years, I have picked up damaged engines with the idea that someday I will fix them up as spare engines. Some of them have been waiting for me to fix them for over 25 years now, and I have often wondered if I will ever get to them in this life time. It is good to see that at least you are one that is eventually getting his machining projects done.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2011 06:28PM by SSsssteamer.
I donít know Pat, I donít have any immediate need for these engines and may not finish them for quite some time. I kind of use some projects as fill stuff.
I finished the boiler grates this morning and installed them.
Another little project I made when I was disassembling what was left of one of the twenty HP engines was a deep socket. I cut a 1-1/8 socket in half and welded each end to a sixteen-inch length of pipe. Iíve been doing this for years but never seem to have the right one when I need it.
The day before yesterday the truck showed up after three weeks from placing the order with 7/8 4340 steel rod. So yesterday I spent the day cutting and threading rod. I now have enough Stanley frame rods for three new 20 HP frames.
When I was waiting for the 7/8 rod to come I made up one set of spacer sleeves that get brazed to the block end of the rod. The only thing I had not done was finish bore the hole, as it needs to be a snug fit to the rod for silver brazing. These took a considerable amount of time. Lots of metal to remove. This morning I finished bored them and sandblaster the end of the rods and silver brazed them on. Now I need to get my tanks refilled with gas and get more silver and wait till I get the steel frame pieces from the water jet cutting.
The Mt Wagon still wears its stock 16" brake drums. The Mt. Wagon looks perfectly stock from the outside. On the outside of the drums, the emergency brake is still there to do its job. On the inside of the drums, hides the powerful 13" NASCAR rotors with their massive dual 2" diameter pistoned calipers. I was out steaming with it last night and I am still amazed that I did not do this conversion years ago. Very light pedal pressure brings the 5,500 pound Mt. Wagon to a predictable, controlled stop. Since installing the disc brakes, the lining has become worn in and it now stops much better than when I first installed the the disc brakes. On long steep down hills, I have not noticed any brake fading. I have yet to experience the huge down hills like they have at Estes Park. On our last visit to Estes Park while still using our stock brake shoes, the long down hills were our mountain wagon's down fall.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2011 02:53AM by SSsssteamer.
Please note that conner061 makes an occasional generic comment just to disguise the fact that he is only here to post advertisements. Don't click on the bizarre links in his post, but hover over them and notice where they would take you.
Hot and muggy today 98F good day to be in the shop.
Yesterday I was cleaning the floor in the shop and stumbled on a nice four inch diameter piece of 6061-T6 just what I needed to make two piston rod packing bushing that go in the baffle plate. I had a project for the day. Wall it took a little longer then the day, thereís a lot of work in these things when hogged out of solid stock.
Now I have to clean the shop again, aluminum chips all over the place.
Good looking bushings Rolly. I also made a couple baffle plate bushings several years back. Not having the billet aluminum to use, I melted down extruded aluminum window frames. For a mould, I used ordinary tin cans to pour the melted aluminum into. I mounted the tin can full of aluminum into my lathe chuck, and whittled out my bushings from the spinning cylinder of aluminum. I quickly found out to not use pop cans for the donor aluminum because it is as soft as lead. I had to cut threads both in the baffle plate that I made and also into the bushing's hex lock nuts. I made my own tap and it worked well too. By having to make most of all my own parts, I really enjoy fixing up the steam cars because they save me $$. All by keeping me out of the Car Quest and NAPA parts stores.
I have the stock over at the water jet shop, I hope to get the pieces next week some time.
I drew the baffle plates ľ less all the way around so as to tig weld a band around the edge. I also made up a tap to do the holes in the plate as there two big to swing in the 16 inch lathe. Fun stuff.
Hi , I could've saved you some work there Rolly, I made a pattern for both the baffle plate and the plugs and cut the hex nuts out of flat bar. I cheated a little with tapping the baffle plate and turned up some locking collars that fit inside the baffle plate so I didn't have to thread the holes in the baffle plate. If you want to borrow the pattern or get me to have one cast you are most welcome.
I have just about got my engine done - I'll post some pics as soon as I take them. The only problem left is the eccentric straps as they have all come from different sources and don't seem to fit the new eccentrics when I put the ball bearings in - all too tight. Need to take a heap of measurements to see where the problem is. Have also just finished milling all my spring shackles which was a very long job and I am glad it is over.
I think a lot of us repeat the same task many times over. When I was involved in the steam boat group for many years I suggested a pattern bank. Everyone list the patterns they had with the secretary, it never flew. I let a few guys use my propeller and stuffing box patterns but that was it.
I water cut my shackles from plate then all I had to do was mill the out side edge and thread them still took a while. Lucky mine did not have the offset in the bolt end.
I plunge cut the round end for the thread with a universal bit, like a hollow end mill.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2011 10:36AM by Rolly.
Wow, That was a neat way of doing the round end. I milled mine with a
round-over end mill slightly oversize and then finished them in the lathe. I made all my shackles from solid bar - I have yet to find somewhere that does good waterjet work at a reasonable price.
A pattern bank sounds like a really good idea as I am sure many of us are off making patterns that already exist somewhere. How about just a list on the forum of who has what although I can see it may cause some hassles trying to get your patterns back, not to mention some abusive foundries that seem to manage to invariably damage patterns. Anyway, I'm off to finish turning my pistons and then fitting them.
Nice work Jeff
I did the threading in the lathe with a die holder that pulls itself in. the holder is on a keyed shaft.
As for the pattern bank, I think some one keeping a published list would be a very good start. Then it would be between the holder of the pattern and the wanting user to make a deal weather the holder has the casting made or lets the pattern out.
Iíve been in the shop. I almost have two 20 HP frames completed I just need to drill a few holes and silver braze them together. I need to get outside for awhile.
I also need to turn up some valve guide hubs that screw into the front plate.
Hi Rolly the drilled feed hole for silver soldering sounds interesting. I've never heard of that before (I've lived a sheltered life) but can see the possibilities straight away. Could you expand on what you do a bit more. Just one hole aimed at the center of the joint?
Yes just a 3/16 hole as close to the center of the joint, on the long spacers that go up against the block I used two holes. Like any solder, silver flows toward the heat. The rod and some of the frame I heat up first till I see the flux flow out of the joint and glaze and then I add a little heat to the joint to get the silver to flow into the hole, then I keep the heat on the end I want it to flow to. Harris 56 needs about 0.005 for clearance. And you need that much to slide the steel over the threads and shafts. I also use the black flux as it can take more heat over a longer time.
I sand blast all the areas to be soldered and flux them right off. Now they can sit around for a while.
Finally got most of my engine assembled after many many setbacks and have attached some pics. The comments in previous postings about variation in Stanley parts is oh so true. This engine has original parts in it from I don't know how many engines and every one of them had to be fitted individually due to variations, and in a lot of cases, it was simpler to make replacement parts. I still have to put the eccentric straps on but that's another problem for which I shall seek advice later on the Forum. It is a little stiff to turn but that seems to be mostly from the rings. Originally I had solid 5/16x3/16 rings but they were very stiff so I made new pistons and put in Clupet rings which seem a lot better. Next major job is to attack the leaf springs which strangely will be a nice change from machining and fitting.
I did everything except the cylinder block, drive gear and the front end covers. I figured at the start that I could build an engine from parts and spread the cost but I think in hindsight, it would have been far easier to buy a complete engine and recondition it. most of the parts I did manage to buy were only really good enough to take measurements off and make from scratch!