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General Steam Car topics
Heating air for cab, where to take it form?
Posted by: Caleb Ramsby (IP Logged)
Date: March 01, 2003 04:42PM
<HTML>Hi all,
I have been trying to figure out where the best place would be to take heat out of the steam system for the cab. The best I can come up with is taking it from the exhaust coming out from the boiler, above the economizer. The gases there should be around 300 deg or lower and I think with the boiler at idle(flame off) there whould be sufficient radiant heat losses from the coils and walls to supply heat to the air heater. There are many cheep options for a heat exchanger for the cab air.
Looking back in the discussions and in my steam car books, I hadn't seen any discussion on this problem.
I have discluded taking heat from the condensor, becuase then when the car isn't moving you wouldn't get any heat.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
I have been trying to figure out where the best place would be to take heat out of the steam system for the cab. The best I can come up with is taking it from the exhaust coming out from the boiler, above the economizer. The gases there should be around 300 deg or lower and I think with the boiler at idle(flame off) there whould be sufficient radiant heat losses from the coils and walls to supply heat to the air heater. There are many cheep options for a heat exchanger for the cab air.
Looking back in the discussions and in my steam car books, I hadn't seen any discussion on this problem.
I have discluded taking heat from the condensor, becuase then when the car isn't moving you wouldn't get any heat.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Re: Heating air for cab, where to take it form?
Posted by: Pat Farrell (IP Logged)
Date: March 02, 2003 04:17AM
<HTML>On our 1922 Stanley 735B touring, we have beveled glass sliding windows that close off the outside chill to help make winter driving real cozy. Here in the State of Washington, the cool winter mornings range around 30 to 40 degrees. Our Stanley carries it's 20 gallon water tank directly below the driver's seat and once that tank has been heated by the returning condensor water, winter driving is very comfortable. The water tank is warm with in two miles and hot with in five miles. The harder you push the Stanley, the faster the tank warms up, and no one in the back seat has ever complained about being cold. I would guess the radiant heat from the Stanley engine adds to the back seat warmth too. Who needs a heater with a condensing Stanley? SSsssteamer</HTML>
Re: Heating air for cab, where to take it form?
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: March 02, 2003 11:25AM
<HTML>I think trying to use flue gases as a heat source is dangerous, even if a steamer does burn much cleaner than an IC engine. If you really need heat, get a normal car heater and run some of the exhaust steam from the engine through it. You will have more heat than you know what to do with before you have driven a block!</HTML>
Re: Heating air for cab, where to take it form?
Posted by: Caleb Ramsby (IP Logged)
Date: March 03, 2003 10:20PM
<HTML>Pat,
Sounds like the Stanley has a good setup. Unfortunatly when I get around to designing a car it will have the feed water tank in the engine compartment, so that wouldn't work.
David,
That would work when the vehicle is moving, but on those cold winter mornings it's nice to be able to let the vehicle warm up and then hop in.
There would be a danger in my idea if the system had a leak, but it would also be unpleasent if there was a bunch of hot exhaust steam going into the cab also(if there were a leak).
I think that if one used a condensor from an airconditioner then it could do the job.
Thinking about the loss of heat through the flue of the boiler when the boiler is at an idle a would think that this would be the biggest loss of heat from the boiler. I like the idea of having a boiler system made so that one could leave it on all day and always have steam when it was neaded. I am thinking that if one had a valve in the flue that closed off the boiler from the atmosphere and one in the air intake that the boiler would hold it's steam much longer. There would need to be a aparatus that opened these valves before the fire turned on again, but this could be easily done.
Well I guese one thing begats another.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Sounds like the Stanley has a good setup. Unfortunatly when I get around to designing a car it will have the feed water tank in the engine compartment, so that wouldn't work.
David,
That would work when the vehicle is moving, but on those cold winter mornings it's nice to be able to let the vehicle warm up and then hop in.
There would be a danger in my idea if the system had a leak, but it would also be unpleasent if there was a bunch of hot exhaust steam going into the cab also(if there were a leak).
I think that if one used a condensor from an airconditioner then it could do the job.
Thinking about the loss of heat through the flue of the boiler when the boiler is at an idle a would think that this would be the biggest loss of heat from the boiler. I like the idea of having a boiler system made so that one could leave it on all day and always have steam when it was neaded. I am thinking that if one had a valve in the flue that closed off the boiler from the atmosphere and one in the air intake that the boiler would hold it's steam much longer. There would need to be a aparatus that opened these valves before the fire turned on again, but this could be easily done.
Well I guese one thing begats another.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Re: Heating air for cab, where to take it form?
Posted by: Terry Williams (IP Logged)
Date: March 04, 2003 03:06PM
<HTML>I agree with David. You are going to have to warm up the engine before you start, so use the waste heat from that for initial warm up of the cab.</HTML>
Re: Heating air for cab, where to take it form?
Posted by: Caleb Ramsby (IP Logged)
Date: March 04, 2003 04:34PM
<HTML>Terry,
Hum, I had forgoten about the heat up cycle. I guese that would solve the stationary car cab heating problem. One would just have to make sure that the steam was down on pressure when doing this other wise there might be a failure in the heat exchanger system. Well, I supose that should work.
Thanks for the help/comments guys.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Hum, I had forgoten about the heat up cycle. I guese that would solve the stationary car cab heating problem. One would just have to make sure that the steam was down on pressure when doing this other wise there might be a failure in the heat exchanger system. Well, I supose that should work.
Thanks for the help/comments guys.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Re: Heating air for cab, where to take it form?
Posted by: Terry Williams (IP Logged)
Date: March 04, 2003 05:12PM
<HTML>>>One would just have to make sure that the steam was down on pressure when doing this other wise there might be a failure in the heat exchanger system.<<
That's easy. Don't put any restriction between your cab heater and your condenser (or wherever it is that you are going to discharge it to).</HTML>
That's easy. Don't put any restriction between your cab heater and your condenser (or wherever it is that you are going to discharge it to).</HTML>
Re: Heating air for cab, where to take it form?
Posted by: Dick Vennerbeck (IP Logged)
Date: March 05, 2003 04:25AM
<HTML>All this talking about trying to heat the cab while standing still made me reminisce about taking my girl out sparkin in my 1960 Corvair with a gas heater. You could run the heater at the drive-in, or where ever without the engine running. Caleb’s car could start a modern trend. No Noise to wake up the folks! That's one way to get the next generation interested in steam (and the following generation!)</HTML>
Re: Heating air for cab, where to take it form?
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: March 06, 2003 05:33PM
<HTML>Automotive heater cores are designed for pressures up to 15 psig. I have never seen my exhaust steam pressure go over 7 psi. You don't need high pressure heat exchangers for this use.</HTML>
Re: Heating air for cab, where to take it form?
Posted by: Caleb Ramsby (IP Logged)
Date: March 06, 2003 11:02PM
<HTML>Terry,
"Don't put any restriction between your cab heater and your condenser (or wherever it is that you are going to discharge it to)."
I don't exactly understand what you meen. For a cab heater I would use a condensor from an air conditioning unit and have proper tubing to take the steam from the normal exhaust or from another source. Then place said unit in a duct, through which air would be pushed via a fan and go into the cab. Do you meen to say leave the smaller condensor in open air and just pull hot air coming off of it into the duct?
Dick,
I had never thought about those particular benefits of a "soundless car". A viable benefit!
David,
I should have made clear that I have had no actual experiance with a steam car and this is all hypothetical thoughts, however my goal is to have a car of my own design going before I am thirty years of age. Right now I have seven years left.
I am wondering, when warming up the engine, does the steam still go into the condensor or is it exhausted into the atmoshpere? My concern over the rupture of a condensor is that of the steam going through the engine and not loosing as much pressure as when it is utalized when the engine is in motion. However thinking about it more throughly I have come to the belief that it is exhausted into the atmosphere.
For the heater deal I think that a good valve that would bring the steam from the boiler way down on pressure and temperature, then admiting it to the smaller condensor when at a stand still would be more that adequate.
I am considering more and more heavily a jet condensor for the engine so that an automotive radiator would be able to work more effeciently. This would give one a more controlable and stable medium to extract heat from.
Say that one needed to heat the car when it is idle, I think that admiting some wire drawn steam into the jet condensor(mabey have a seperate line going straight into the condensor) and then extracting the heat from the water that was used to condense it would be a practical system. Then the heater control at a stand still would be only how much steam was admited to the jet condensor, thus how hot the water in the radiator is. Then at speed the control of heat would be with fan speed, and mabey a slide valve to close off more of the radiator area.
This system would dictate a donkey engine, but this(donkey) has been in my plans the whole time.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
"Don't put any restriction between your cab heater and your condenser (or wherever it is that you are going to discharge it to)."
I don't exactly understand what you meen. For a cab heater I would use a condensor from an air conditioning unit and have proper tubing to take the steam from the normal exhaust or from another source. Then place said unit in a duct, through which air would be pushed via a fan and go into the cab. Do you meen to say leave the smaller condensor in open air and just pull hot air coming off of it into the duct?
Dick,
I had never thought about those particular benefits of a "soundless car". A viable benefit!
David,
I should have made clear that I have had no actual experiance with a steam car and this is all hypothetical thoughts, however my goal is to have a car of my own design going before I am thirty years of age. Right now I have seven years left.
I am wondering, when warming up the engine, does the steam still go into the condensor or is it exhausted into the atmoshpere? My concern over the rupture of a condensor is that of the steam going through the engine and not loosing as much pressure as when it is utalized when the engine is in motion. However thinking about it more throughly I have come to the belief that it is exhausted into the atmosphere.
For the heater deal I think that a good valve that would bring the steam from the boiler way down on pressure and temperature, then admiting it to the smaller condensor when at a stand still would be more that adequate.
I am considering more and more heavily a jet condensor for the engine so that an automotive radiator would be able to work more effeciently. This would give one a more controlable and stable medium to extract heat from.
Say that one needed to heat the car when it is idle, I think that admiting some wire drawn steam into the jet condensor(mabey have a seperate line going straight into the condensor) and then extracting the heat from the water that was used to condense it would be a practical system. Then the heater control at a stand still would be only how much steam was admited to the jet condensor, thus how hot the water in the radiator is. Then at speed the control of heat would be with fan speed, and mabey a slide valve to close off more of the radiator area.
This system would dictate a donkey engine, but this(donkey) has been in my plans the whole time.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Re: Heating air for cab, where to take it form?
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: March 07, 2003 12:53PM
<HTML>ALL condensing steam cars have to deal with the issue of excess steam in the condensor at some times, like when climbing steep hills. Whites were fitted with a safety valve that limited pressure to a few pounds. Stanleys used large pipes connecting the bottom of the condensor to the water tank and a large overflow pipe, excess steam simply blew through the tank into the open.</HTML>
Re: Heating air for cab, where to take it form?
Posted by: Terry Williams (IP Logged)
Date: March 07, 2003 01:39PM
<HTML>>>"Don't put any restriction between your cab heater and your condenser (or wherever it is that you are going to discharge it to)."
I don't exactly understand what you meen. For a cab heater I would use a condensor from an air conditioning unit and have proper tubing to take the steam from the normal exhaust or from another source. Then place said unit in a duct, through which air would be pushed via a fan and go into the cab. Do you meen to say leave the smaller condensor in open air and just pull hot air coming off of it into the duct?<<
No, I just meant to not have any restriction in the discharge steam line from your HX. THen you can only pressurize it to slightly more that the pressure you are discharging it to.</HTML>
I don't exactly understand what you meen. For a cab heater I would use a condensor from an air conditioning unit and have proper tubing to take the steam from the normal exhaust or from another source. Then place said unit in a duct, through which air would be pushed via a fan and go into the cab. Do you meen to say leave the smaller condensor in open air and just pull hot air coming off of it into the duct?<<
No, I just meant to not have any restriction in the discharge steam line from your HX. THen you can only pressurize it to slightly more that the pressure you are discharging it to.</HTML>
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