1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
How much HP?
Posted by: Dan Ullfig (IP Logged)
Date: January 03, 2005 08:53PM
<HTML>Hi All:
How many hosepower would you say you would need for a modern sportscar? Say it looked something like a Lamborghini (I'm actually considering putting together one of those replica kits you can get). Say you wanted to be able to go uphills and still have decent performance, and be able to sustain 120mph on the level. How much power would you gestimate you would need? after all, the power output is what drives the sizing of all the components in the system (and water consumption rate, obviously)
Dan</HTML>
How many hosepower would you say you would need for a modern sportscar? Say it looked something like a Lamborghini (I'm actually considering putting together one of those replica kits you can get). Say you wanted to be able to go uphills and still have decent performance, and be able to sustain 120mph on the level. How much power would you gestimate you would need? after all, the power output is what drives the sizing of all the components in the system (and water consumption rate, obviously)
Dan</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Dan Ullfig (IP Logged)
Date: January 03, 2005 08:57PM
<HTML>Or how does one figure these things out?
Dan</HTML>
Dan</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Graeme Vagg (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2005 01:49AM
<HTML>Dan,
Suggest reading the small section on this topic in Marks Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers. It is in section 11-5 in the 9th edition. The next edition would be more current but it give enough data to get you in the ballpark.
Graeme</HTML>
Suggest reading the small section on this topic in Marks Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers. It is in section 11-5 in the 9th edition. The next edition would be more current but it give enough data to get you in the ballpark.
Graeme</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Ken (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2005 02:15PM
<HTML>Hi Dan:
There is no answer to this question. The amount of horsepower needed is going to be a function of vehicle weight and desired performance. Performance can even be broken down into acceleration, top speed, handling and braking. Not all of these are mutually agreeable...a bigger engine can add more power, but the added weight can detract from braking and handling. Beefed up brakes, suspension and tires can improve the handling and braking, but the added weight can reduce acceleration. And so on. The entire process is a series of design tradeoffs, with the 'correct' solution being the one that most closely fits the designers goals for performance, economy, cost, maintenance, ease of production and so on. As this is a subjective quantity, the correct answer can vary widely from designer to designer.
Regards,
Ken</HTML>
There is no answer to this question. The amount of horsepower needed is going to be a function of vehicle weight and desired performance. Performance can even be broken down into acceleration, top speed, handling and braking. Not all of these are mutually agreeable...a bigger engine can add more power, but the added weight can detract from braking and handling. Beefed up brakes, suspension and tires can improve the handling and braking, but the added weight can reduce acceleration. And so on. The entire process is a series of design tradeoffs, with the 'correct' solution being the one that most closely fits the designers goals for performance, economy, cost, maintenance, ease of production and so on. As this is a subjective quantity, the correct answer can vary widely from designer to designer.
Regards,
Ken</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2005 04:49PM
<HTML>I think one needs start with speed performance. Speed performance is basicly limited by arodynamic drag. That of course is a variable depending mostly on body design.
I seperate the normal driving range out and am trying to figure an engine size to efficiently run in that range. And by efficiency I mean as near as pritical to full expansion at the top normal cruse speed.
You will have more then enough excess power at longer cutoff for more speed and excelleration. You will be limited by you boiler's max steaming rate and the engines steam usage.
Every thing is a balancing act.
As Ken says there is no single answer. But maybe a stratagy. My way is no end all. But an example of ording the priorities to arrive at a soloution.
You may need go through the design steps several times as there usually is a sequiential dependancy. In the above I would come up with an engine size. That woudl dictate the boiler requirments. Don't forget other power consumers like alternator and feed pump. You may come up with non workable impratical sizing. Make comprmizes were neccessary. Figure some fudge factors. There are some rule of thumb guide lines in most enginering books to go form ideal engines to real.
It would be great to have some moden body style drag parameters. Some body designs are tuned to have less drag in the 50 to 70 MPH range and do not follow the square law. Thats a cubic low when it comes to power requirments. Basicly the force of equilibrum to arodynamic drag increasses with the square of the speed.
Andy</HTML>
I seperate the normal driving range out and am trying to figure an engine size to efficiently run in that range. And by efficiency I mean as near as pritical to full expansion at the top normal cruse speed.
You will have more then enough excess power at longer cutoff for more speed and excelleration. You will be limited by you boiler's max steaming rate and the engines steam usage.
Every thing is a balancing act.
As Ken says there is no single answer. But maybe a stratagy. My way is no end all. But an example of ording the priorities to arrive at a soloution.
You may need go through the design steps several times as there usually is a sequiential dependancy. In the above I would come up with an engine size. That woudl dictate the boiler requirments. Don't forget other power consumers like alternator and feed pump. You may come up with non workable impratical sizing. Make comprmizes were neccessary. Figure some fudge factors. There are some rule of thumb guide lines in most enginering books to go form ideal engines to real.
It would be great to have some moden body style drag parameters. Some body designs are tuned to have less drag in the 50 to 70 MPH range and do not follow the square law. Thats a cubic low when it comes to power requirments. Basicly the force of equilibrum to arodynamic drag increasses with the square of the speed.
Andy</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Rolly (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2005 05:04PM
<HTML>The standard use for years is
1-1/2 HP per ton on water.
5 HP per ton on rail
35 HP per ton on road.
We all know there are variables to every thing.
Rolly</HTML>
1-1/2 HP per ton on water.
5 HP per ton on rail
35 HP per ton on road.
We all know there are variables to every thing.
Rolly</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2005 05:34PM
<HTML>Pick a sports car with the sort of performance you want to emulate.
ie Mazda MX5, Corvette series 6, Diablo, etc. That defines your target.
Find out from road tests the 0 to 60 mph or standing quarter mile time. Determine the vehicle weight for that acceleration time.
This will enable you to calculate the horsepower required. There are various programs avaliable to do this. Unless you are building a car with the aerodynamics and cross section of a covered waggon this hp will much greater than the power required to sustain cruising speed at 75mph
This is a rough cut and now you have to look at gearing and the torque characteristic of the steam engine you are building the car around. ie high speed small capacity single acting via a gearbox or direct connected large capacity.
It would be great to have rolling road torque curves for Doble, and the big White and Stanley engines but I have never seen that information.
Cheers
Mark Stacey
www.cncprototyping.co.nz</HTML>
ie Mazda MX5, Corvette series 6, Diablo, etc. That defines your target.
Find out from road tests the 0 to 60 mph or standing quarter mile time. Determine the vehicle weight for that acceleration time.
This will enable you to calculate the horsepower required. There are various programs avaliable to do this. Unless you are building a car with the aerodynamics and cross section of a covered waggon this hp will much greater than the power required to sustain cruising speed at 75mph
This is a rough cut and now you have to look at gearing and the torque characteristic of the steam engine you are building the car around. ie high speed small capacity single acting via a gearbox or direct connected large capacity.
It would be great to have rolling road torque curves for Doble, and the big White and Stanley engines but I have never seen that information.
Cheers
Mark Stacey
www.cncprototyping.co.nz</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Dan Ullfig (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2005 06:10PM
<HTML>Hi Mark:
I tend to agree with Andy: any steam engine that can sustain, say, 80MPH on level road, at 10% cuttoff, will blow the doors off an IC engine, provided the boiler can keep up! I guess one would have to figure out what HP is necessary for level, sustained speed. That would change from car to car, depending on aerodynamics, and rolling friction. Are there any figures on how much HP is put out by different cars? would the highway MPG of a car give you an estimate of how much HP is being produced?
Dan</HTML>
I tend to agree with Andy: any steam engine that can sustain, say, 80MPH on level road, at 10% cuttoff, will blow the doors off an IC engine, provided the boiler can keep up! I guess one would have to figure out what HP is necessary for level, sustained speed. That would change from car to car, depending on aerodynamics, and rolling friction. Are there any figures on how much HP is put out by different cars? would the highway MPG of a car give you an estimate of how much HP is being produced?
Dan</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2005 07:33PM
<HTML>The amount of steam generation is the big thing.
If at 60 MPH you are using x amount of steam/second Say at 20% efficiency
you increase cutoff to get power to go 180 MPH. Say that cutoff increase, decrases efficieny to 15%
Your speed increased 3:1 a 3^3 increase in steam requirement if efficiency didn't change. But efficiency went from 20% to 15% so your steam requirement is on the order of 3^3*20/15 you would need 36 times the amount of steam/second as at 60 MPH.
You could go with more top end at the short cutoff if speed is your thing or settle for less top end, With a reserve type boiler (LaMont for example). You would have great acceleration with less boiler generation capibility required. I would not have the boiler maxed out at normal high way speed in any case. You would have some head room. It's a mater of how much boiler you are willing to put into the car. You do have space limitations.
Lots of very hard decisions.
Andy</HTML>
If at 60 MPH you are using x amount of steam/second Say at 20% efficiency
you increase cutoff to get power to go 180 MPH. Say that cutoff increase, decrases efficieny to 15%
Your speed increased 3:1 a 3^3 increase in steam requirement if efficiency didn't change. But efficiency went from 20% to 15% so your steam requirement is on the order of 3^3*20/15 you would need 36 times the amount of steam/second as at 60 MPH.
You could go with more top end at the short cutoff if speed is your thing or settle for less top end, With a reserve type boiler (LaMont for example). You would have great acceleration with less boiler generation capibility required. I would not have the boiler maxed out at normal high way speed in any case. You would have some head room. It's a mater of how much boiler you are willing to put into the car. You do have space limitations.
Lots of very hard decisions.
Andy</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Dan Ullfig (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2005 10:33PM
<HTML>Andy:
I think I changed my mind on how to go about sizing the engine. After all, if you're trying to put together a sports car, what you're after is acceleration, not economy :) So I think I need to figure out the torque requirement to go from, say, 0-60 in 6 seconds (you want steam to get a good reputation). But you design the powerplant so that it puts out that much power at, say, 80% cutoff (?)(i'm just throwing numbers around). And then you let the cutoff at highway speed be watever it turns out to be...
Dan</HTML>
I think I changed my mind on how to go about sizing the engine. After all, if you're trying to put together a sports car, what you're after is acceleration, not economy :) So I think I need to figure out the torque requirement to go from, say, 0-60 in 6 seconds (you want steam to get a good reputation). But you design the powerplant so that it puts out that much power at, say, 80% cutoff (?)(i'm just throwing numbers around). And then you let the cutoff at highway speed be watever it turns out to be...
Dan</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2005 11:18PM
<HTML>[www.getfaster.com]
OK Andy
Last time pounding my head against a brick wall. See the above url. The horsepower for a Corvette to do 120mph is about 75hp on the flat plus see how little power is required at the legal speed limit.
As the article clearly states this is nothing like the hp the engine produces so all that extra avaliable hp is for accelleration or going up hills.
You cannot rely on any "stored" power in the boiler as there will always be a hill long enough to run it out.
Horsepower calcs set your maximum burner fuel flow. And yes it gets extravagent. Find the wonderfull thread where Jim Crank talks about winding out a Doble in a drag race against a tweaked Duseberg which the Doble walked all over. This was with an estimated 20 gallon per hour fire.
As I have said before I've ridden in about 12 different steam cars, Stanleys, Dobles, Whites. So what am I currently doing? I'm striping all the steam gear out of my 1951 2 tonne Chev and installing it in a 1100kg Sports car because the light powerful cars are more lively and perform better.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
OK Andy
Last time pounding my head against a brick wall. See the above url. The horsepower for a Corvette to do 120mph is about 75hp on the flat plus see how little power is required at the legal speed limit.
As the article clearly states this is nothing like the hp the engine produces so all that extra avaliable hp is for accelleration or going up hills.
You cannot rely on any "stored" power in the boiler as there will always be a hill long enough to run it out.
Horsepower calcs set your maximum burner fuel flow. And yes it gets extravagent. Find the wonderfull thread where Jim Crank talks about winding out a Doble in a drag race against a tweaked Duseberg which the Doble walked all over. This was with an estimated 20 gallon per hour fire.
As I have said before I've ridden in about 12 different steam cars, Stanleys, Dobles, Whites. So what am I currently doing? I'm striping all the steam gear out of my 1951 2 tonne Chev and installing it in a 1100kg Sports car because the light powerful cars are more lively and perform better.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: January 06, 2005 03:24PM
<HTML>Hi Mark.
It sounds like the Corvett needing 75 HP at 120 MPH would need around 12 at 65MPH
1 G (32 feet/sec/sec) of acceleration is equal to 21.818182 MPH/sec. So, on level grand, for 0 to 60 in 6 seconds you would need 0.458 Gs of acceleration. Your engine would have to produce enough torque to make 0.458 times the weight of your car in thrust. A 3000 lb car with 24" diameter wheels would need 0.458 * 3000 torque at the drive wheels. If I remember right, common tires can hold around 0.77 Gs before slipage on a good road surface.
0 to 60 in 6 secinds with a 3000 pound car would take 1374.862 at the drive wheels(24" diameter wheels 1 foot radious). Your wheels would be turning 840.338 RPM at 60 MPH.
You can figure HP at 60. But it's the torque that is producing the acceleration. If you had constant torque from 0 to 60. At 0 you would have 0 HP and at 60 219.978 HP. The HP from 0 to 60 relative to speed would be a line from 0 to 219.978.
(1374.862 lb * 5280 ft/min(at 60 MPH))/33000 = 219.978 HP
(1374.862 lb * (5280/2) ft/min(at 30 MPH))/33000 = 109.989 HP
(1374.862 lb * (5280/4) ft/min(at 15 MPH))/33000 = 54.994 HP
Horsr power doesn't make acceleration.
HP = torque*RPM*2*pi/33000
pi = 3.1415928....
Andy</HTML>
It sounds like the Corvett needing 75 HP at 120 MPH would need around 12 at 65MPH
1 G (32 feet/sec/sec) of acceleration is equal to 21.818182 MPH/sec. So, on level grand, for 0 to 60 in 6 seconds you would need 0.458 Gs of acceleration. Your engine would have to produce enough torque to make 0.458 times the weight of your car in thrust. A 3000 lb car with 24" diameter wheels would need 0.458 * 3000 torque at the drive wheels. If I remember right, common tires can hold around 0.77 Gs before slipage on a good road surface.
0 to 60 in 6 secinds with a 3000 pound car would take 1374.862 at the drive wheels(24" diameter wheels 1 foot radious). Your wheels would be turning 840.338 RPM at 60 MPH.
You can figure HP at 60. But it's the torque that is producing the acceleration. If you had constant torque from 0 to 60. At 0 you would have 0 HP and at 60 219.978 HP. The HP from 0 to 60 relative to speed would be a line from 0 to 219.978.
(1374.862 lb * 5280 ft/min(at 60 MPH))/33000 = 219.978 HP
(1374.862 lb * (5280/2) ft/min(at 30 MPH))/33000 = 109.989 HP
(1374.862 lb * (5280/4) ft/min(at 15 MPH))/33000 = 54.994 HP
Horsr power doesn't make acceleration.
HP = torque*RPM*2*pi/33000
pi = 3.1415928....
Andy</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Dan Ullfig (IP Logged)
Date: January 06, 2005 03:36PM
<HTML>Andy:
Since cruising on the highway under normal conditions wouldn't be done at 120, but rather around 65, then one would aim at having an output of about 12hp with 10% cutoff to get good milage, right? and you would figure out the piston area so that with minimum cutoff you would get the required acceleration.
Dan</HTML>
Since cruising on the highway under normal conditions wouldn't be done at 120, but rather around 65, then one would aim at having an output of about 12hp with 10% cutoff to get good milage, right? and you would figure out the piston area so that with minimum cutoff you would get the required acceleration.
Dan</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: January 06, 2005 05:08PM
<HTML>The Green Monster could make around 30 MPH in full cutoff. You had to back off the cutoff before 30. I don't know all the details of the reasions. Maybe Howard can give the reasions.
Thet thing had a huge B&K type boiler. Had it been in the right hook up at the line it would have won the first SACA drag race hands down. It made a good showing even after stalling off the line. They lost several seconds.
I have no idea what the cutoff points were on the green monster. But you need to look at steam usage valve timming etc. You may have a limit on even short term acceleration at long cutoff. Things like back pressure build up, boiler reserve, valve timming etc.
By the high end sports cars are in 4 second 0 to 60 range. The Dodge stealth could do 0 to 60 in 4.6 seconds with ease.
Andy</HTML>
Thet thing had a huge B&K type boiler. Had it been in the right hook up at the line it would have won the first SACA drag race hands down. It made a good showing even after stalling off the line. They lost several seconds.
I have no idea what the cutoff points were on the green monster. But you need to look at steam usage valve timming etc. You may have a limit on even short term acceleration at long cutoff. Things like back pressure build up, boiler reserve, valve timming etc.
By the high end sports cars are in 4 second 0 to 60 range. The Dodge stealth could do 0 to 60 in 4.6 seconds with ease.
Andy</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Rolly (IP Logged)
Date: January 06, 2005 06:00PM
<HTML>The Green monster had a Derr boiler and a Doble F two cylinder compound engine. Like any compound with 90 degree cranks, even with a simple-ing valve, they don’t always start without rocking the valve gear from forward to reserve. Especially when directly connected to a load.
Rolly</HTML>
Rolly</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: January 07, 2005 03:48AM
<HTML>Dan,
It's a Lamborghini.
It's not a question of how much horsepower you need but how much you can cram in it.
I'd start with the engine compartment size, and maybe alternate locations for the condenser like on the roof or rear deck then see how big an engine/boiler combination would possibly fit.
Can the engine bolt up to a rear end like the corvette's independent even with a transmission to get it out of the engine compartment to make more boiler room?
I think a lot of good information could come out of trying for maximum HP in a auto body of this size.
Thank You------------Bill G.</HTML>
It's a Lamborghini.
It's not a question of how much horsepower you need but how much you can cram in it.
I'd start with the engine compartment size, and maybe alternate locations for the condenser like on the roof or rear deck then see how big an engine/boiler combination would possibly fit.
Can the engine bolt up to a rear end like the corvette's independent even with a transmission to get it out of the engine compartment to make more boiler room?
I think a lot of good information could come out of trying for maximum HP in a auto body of this size.
Thank You------------Bill G.</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Dan Ullfig (IP Logged)
Date: January 07, 2005 04:01AM
<HTML>Bill:
Yep, you're right... :-) (kirk:"scotty, I need more power" scotty:"she's doing all she can captain, she's going to break up")
Dan</HTML>
Yep, you're right... :-) (kirk:"scotty, I need more power" scotty:"she's doing all she can captain, she's going to break up")
Dan</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: January 07, 2005 07:26PM
<HTML>Hi Rolly
I was going by what Howard told me at the SACA meet. He told me it was a B&K type boiler. If I rember corectly the Dear has a central colum with vaporizing coils conected around it's preferial and a seperate super heater that wraps around down to the fire and then out. It's all in a round shell. The Green Monster boiler was box shaped. A good 5 or 6 feet long, three feet high and 3 feet wide. That car was almost all boiler.
It had electric water level sensers(spark plugs) in an external colum which Howard said conected to the water and steam drums. The water level column was valved so he could change the spark plugs with the boiler pressure up to pressure. I was talking to him at the time he was changing plugs.
It was Howard's friend driving. He didn't get it back into full cutoff after backingup to the line. I don't remember why he backed up. May have jumped the gun and restatred. Or maybe a pritice start. Anyway he went about 10 to 20 feet and stalled. It probably could be blamed on the sampling valve. I think on that car the sampling valve is only enabled in full cutoff and reverse. I think the break released pressure in the interstage reciever. As every time he stoped you could hear a release of steam pressure.
Why do you think it was a Derr boiler? Did it maybe have a Derr boiler at one time or was it Howards layout of a dear boiler.
On the origional subject. My Stealth putout 300 HP and a 0 to 60 time of 4.6 seconds. With the HP at 60 MPH from my last post: For a 4600 pound that doesn't sound like enough horse power to get 0 to 60 in 4.6. But then it's torque wasn't comstant and it has a lot acceleration in low gear. At sixt it wouldn't have the same acceleration rate.
Then Bill has a point. How much engine-boiler can you fit into the avialable space.
Andy</HTML>
I was going by what Howard told me at the SACA meet. He told me it was a B&K type boiler. If I rember corectly the Dear has a central colum with vaporizing coils conected around it's preferial and a seperate super heater that wraps around down to the fire and then out. It's all in a round shell. The Green Monster boiler was box shaped. A good 5 or 6 feet long, three feet high and 3 feet wide. That car was almost all boiler.
It had electric water level sensers(spark plugs) in an external colum which Howard said conected to the water and steam drums. The water level column was valved so he could change the spark plugs with the boiler pressure up to pressure. I was talking to him at the time he was changing plugs.
It was Howard's friend driving. He didn't get it back into full cutoff after backingup to the line. I don't remember why he backed up. May have jumped the gun and restatred. Or maybe a pritice start. Anyway he went about 10 to 20 feet and stalled. It probably could be blamed on the sampling valve. I think on that car the sampling valve is only enabled in full cutoff and reverse. I think the break released pressure in the interstage reciever. As every time he stoped you could hear a release of steam pressure.
Why do you think it was a Derr boiler? Did it maybe have a Derr boiler at one time or was it Howards layout of a dear boiler.
On the origional subject. My Stealth putout 300 HP and a 0 to 60 time of 4.6 seconds. With the HP at 60 MPH from my last post: For a 4600 pound that doesn't sound like enough horse power to get 0 to 60 in 4.6. But then it's torque wasn't comstant and it has a lot acceleration in low gear. At sixt it wouldn't have the same acceleration rate.
Then Bill has a point. How much engine-boiler can you fit into the avialable space.
Andy</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Rolly (IP Logged)
Date: January 07, 2005 09:53PM
<HTML>Why do you think it was a Derr boiler?
Because I know Howard and have photos of its construction, and have built a modified Derr my self. The reason the car went backward is because it’s a compound and its not self starting unless you rock the valve gear like most compounds.
Rolly</HTML>
Because I know Howard and have photos of its construction, and have built a modified Derr my self. The reason the car went backward is because it’s a compound and its not self starting unless you rock the valve gear like most compounds.
Rolly</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: January 08, 2005 04:33AM
<HTML>Hi Rolly
I am sure Howard said it was a B&K type boiler at the meet. I am not sure of the Derr design off hand. But I guss you should know. Did I describe the Derr? I think I had it confused with the Baker? I have a hard time remembering names. I can't find the Derr in any of my books. I have to find my Claymer books.
But He didn't take off backwords. I said He backed up to the start line. He had accelerated spining tires, dirt and dust flying, somewhat past the start line and had to back up to the start line. Then when the flag droped they went forward a short distance and stoped. I was about 1/3 of the way down the track from the start line. I don't remember who told me. I think it was Howard when we were loading up the car. But I am certan I heard from somebody that it was in short hook up when the flag droped. It's been four years. My memory is a bit fogy at this distance.
I remember that race. I though the worst when I heard all the scraping and banging sounds after they went out of site under the bridge in a huge cloud of dust. I had been around there and there really wasn't any were for him to go except into the river at that spead. I thought. But some how they managed to turn the car up the underside bridge embackment and there they were At the top with the car wedged against the bridge with the tires spinning. Just stoped spinning as I came around the corner. Oh Yaa. I remember that race. Doubt anyvbody there will forget it.
Andy</HTML>
I am sure Howard said it was a B&K type boiler at the meet. I am not sure of the Derr design off hand. But I guss you should know. Did I describe the Derr? I think I had it confused with the Baker? I have a hard time remembering names. I can't find the Derr in any of my books. I have to find my Claymer books.
But He didn't take off backwords. I said He backed up to the start line. He had accelerated spining tires, dirt and dust flying, somewhat past the start line and had to back up to the start line. Then when the flag droped they went forward a short distance and stoped. I was about 1/3 of the way down the track from the start line. I don't remember who told me. I think it was Howard when we were loading up the car. But I am certan I heard from somebody that it was in short hook up when the flag droped. It's been four years. My memory is a bit fogy at this distance.
I remember that race. I though the worst when I heard all the scraping and banging sounds after they went out of site under the bridge in a huge cloud of dust. I had been around there and there really wasn't any were for him to go except into the river at that spead. I thought. But some how they managed to turn the car up the underside bridge embackment and there they were At the top with the car wedged against the bridge with the tires spinning. Just stoped spinning as I came around the corner. Oh Yaa. I remember that race. Doubt anyvbody there will forget it.
Andy</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: January 08, 2005 10:48AM
<HTML>Andy,
You're thinking of a Baker (vertical central drum with coils around it). Derr has multiple identical grids linked together by horizontal drums at the sides. Water boils in vertical water tubes, with circulation to and from them via horizontal headers at top and bottom. Headers connect to side drums at top and bottom. I too have seen the Green Monster boiler described as a "B&W". Maybe the writer(s) didn't know the difference. Rolly knows, so I consider myself corrected.
Had a ride in a Mitsu Eclipse once (Stealth = US captive import version). Scared the living crap out of me. Hope to duplicate this performance in a steamer. :)
Peter</HTML>
You're thinking of a Baker (vertical central drum with coils around it). Derr has multiple identical grids linked together by horizontal drums at the sides. Water boils in vertical water tubes, with circulation to and from them via horizontal headers at top and bottom. Headers connect to side drums at top and bottom. I too have seen the Green Monster boiler described as a "B&W". Maybe the writer(s) didn't know the difference. Rolly knows, so I consider myself corrected.
Had a ride in a Mitsu Eclipse once (Stealth = US captive import version). Scared the living crap out of me. Hope to duplicate this performance in a steamer. :)
Peter</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2005 04:57PM
<HTML>Hi Peter
The Mitsu equilivant to the Stealth is the 3000 GT VR-4. It as a bit more radical performance then the Eclipse. The 3000 GT and Stealth are almost the same car. I little bit different body styling and one has an active rear spoiler. The Stealth Twin Turbo and the VR4 are all wheel drive and all wheel stearing. The Eclipse only have all wheel drive modles and are about 100 HP shy of what the high end Stealth twin turbne and 3000 GT VR-4. The Stealth twin turbo came out with 300 HP and in 93 or 94 when to 320 HP. There are after market turbos, exhausts and chips that push HP up around 700.
Andy</HTML>
The Mitsu equilivant to the Stealth is the 3000 GT VR-4. It as a bit more radical performance then the Eclipse. The 3000 GT and Stealth are almost the same car. I little bit different body styling and one has an active rear spoiler. The Stealth Twin Turbo and the VR4 are all wheel drive and all wheel stearing. The Eclipse only have all wheel drive modles and are about 100 HP shy of what the high end Stealth twin turbne and 3000 GT VR-4. The Stealth twin turbo came out with 300 HP and in 93 or 94 when to 320 HP. There are after market turbos, exhausts and chips that push HP up around 700.
Andy</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2005 05:14PM
<HTML>Hi Rolly
Thanks for the aditional posts on the SACA forum explaining the Derr boiler. Must of heard B&H type form Howard. Hard to hear standing next to that beast it was. Guss thay are close to the same as a Derr. Thank you for puting me right.
Any way. We have departed a long ways from the thread topic. My origional point and others is that the system needs to be designed to provide the performance desired. That you can not relay on being able to use long cutoff for an extended period and will have to back off cutoff at higher speed. Even when accelerating.
Andy</HTML>
Thanks for the aditional posts on the SACA forum explaining the Derr boiler. Must of heard B&H type form Howard. Hard to hear standing next to that beast it was. Guss thay are close to the same as a Derr. Thank you for puting me right.
Any way. We have departed a long ways from the thread topic. My origional point and others is that the system needs to be designed to provide the performance desired. That you can not relay on being able to use long cutoff for an extended period and will have to back off cutoff at higher speed. Even when accelerating.
Andy</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2005 07:39AM
<HTML>Thanks for the correction Andy, bum info again. The Eclipse was plenty wild for my taste, can only imagine the 3000GT/Stealth. With that kind of vehicle, it's time to seriously consider race driving school. FWIW, we ran some numbers on Lightsteam once and figured a 1500 lb sports car (prob with lots of composites) would need about 250 developed hp @60 mph to go 0-60 in 3 seconds. If that could be maintained, a light aero sports car could go well over 200 mph if my numbers are straight. Good luck shoehorning that kind of "boilerage" and "condenserage" into a small sports car! In the real world, I'm about to install an exhaust system/muffler that adds 10% to hp or mpg (I'll stick with featherfoot mpg to baby the OLD engine, push it = blow it) on the Bug. A std. tuned design, prob a knockoff of an ancient EMPI original. Actually cheaper than the stock muffler (which needed replacement), easier install, and better designed/built. 10%, that's a whopping 3-4 hp increase! :)
Peter</HTML>
Peter</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2005 07:06PM
<HTML>Hi peter
The Stealth is a very easy car to drive. It holds the road like you can't believe. On the other hand the stearing was very sensitive and preciese. You had to be on top of it. The car would respond to the slitest input. The turbo versions only come with standard transmissions. No automatic. So maybe a little bit more complicated. No shift light either. Has a computerized traction control system. Couldn't burn off. Cherp the tires is all you could get. It would glue back in you seat though. Punched it on ice once. Expected it to spin around. But No!! It took off. Not what I was expecting.
The only thing that bothered me was the all wheel stearing kicking in and out at 30 MPH. Below 30 the all wheel stearing kicked out. It made for some touch situations once in a while.
I turned onto a freeway on ramp at about 45 to find a trafic jam. The rear wheel stearing, kicking out when I hit the breaks, almost sent me off the road. Same problem when accelerating in a curve. But after a while you get used to it. They did that to make it easier to parallel park. I think it would have been better to have a manual switch. Having to componsate for the turning radious differance when it switched in and out was not a good idea.
Andy</HTML>
The Stealth is a very easy car to drive. It holds the road like you can't believe. On the other hand the stearing was very sensitive and preciese. You had to be on top of it. The car would respond to the slitest input. The turbo versions only come with standard transmissions. No automatic. So maybe a little bit more complicated. No shift light either. Has a computerized traction control system. Couldn't burn off. Cherp the tires is all you could get. It would glue back in you seat though. Punched it on ice once. Expected it to spin around. But No!! It took off. Not what I was expecting.
The only thing that bothered me was the all wheel stearing kicking in and out at 30 MPH. Below 30 the all wheel stearing kicked out. It made for some touch situations once in a while.
I turned onto a freeway on ramp at about 45 to find a trafic jam. The rear wheel stearing, kicking out when I hit the breaks, almost sent me off the road. Same problem when accelerating in a curve. But after a while you get used to it. They did that to make it easier to parallel park. I think it would have been better to have a manual switch. Having to componsate for the turning radious differance when it switched in and out was not a good idea.
Andy</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Andre' Blanchard (IP Logged)
Date: January 12, 2005 02:44PM
<HTML>I would have thought the four wheel steering would fade in and out over a speed range (say 15 - 30 mph) so as to not suddenly change the turning radius. I hope that traction control can be turned off. I have a friend has it on a 3/4 ton pickup, he says there are times he has to turn it off or the computer will have him slowed down to a crawl, like on a soft gravel road.
I cannot get worked up over a (sports car) with front wheel drive or an auto transmission.
Andre' B.</HTML>
I cannot get worked up over a (sports car) with front wheel drive or an auto transmission.
Andre' B.</HTML>
Re: How much HP?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: January 12, 2005 03:38PM
<HTML>Hi Andre'
The traction control was a full time deal. No it didn't slow you down on dirt roads. Or even icy roads. I don't know much about how it worked. The car just would not spin tires for any length of time. The only time I got the car in truble was on a bottom road here in MO. We have lots clay around here and it is vary slipry when wet. I pulled way over to let a big combine get bay and got into the slipry clay on a bit of a slope. The car just kept inching closer to ditch. I migh have been able to power out but to much trafic so I just stoped. The farmer puled me back on to the gravel. One tire on the gravel and I got the rest of the way out under my own power. That wet clay is slipry as snot.
Andy</HTML>
The traction control was a full time deal. No it didn't slow you down on dirt roads. Or even icy roads. I don't know much about how it worked. The car just would not spin tires for any length of time. The only time I got the car in truble was on a bottom road here in MO. We have lots clay around here and it is vary slipry when wet. I pulled way over to let a big combine get bay and got into the slipry clay on a bit of a slope. The car just kept inching closer to ditch. I migh have been able to power out but to much trafic so I just stoped. The farmer puled me back on to the gravel. One tire on the gravel and I got the rest of the way out under my own power. That wet clay is slipry as snot.
Andy</HTML>
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.