I need to build the steel frame for the wagon style seat for my Stanley R but I think the one I measured may not be original. Could someone with this style of seat on their car possibly do me a favor and measure the diameter of the steel rod it is made from, and also the diameter od the pivot bolts. The one I measured had 3/8"diameter but in photos of other cars, it looks to be larger in diameter. Also, could someone post a photo of the way the vertical supports under the padded back sit on the rear rail. It looks as though they are a U section that just lifts up when you want to fold the seat down??

Any information appreciated.

Thanks

Jeff

Jeff
On Stanley the ones I’ve seen are all wood. On other makes I’ve seen metal.
Rolly

Jeff
Hear is a photo of Steve Baldock’s model R with wood seats.
Rolly

Hi Rolly,
As far as I know , there were three rear seat styles, the single center "mother-in-law" seat, then two similar to the front seats only with lower backs, and the wagon style. I've attached a pic of the latter. The back of the seat can swing up and over into the foot well, pivoting on the pivots on the side rails - I think I have seen a catalog picture showing it in both positions.

Jeff

I should have mentioned that the board behind the seat in the pic was just a sign - not standard!

Jeff

Jeff
This is similar to the seat on my EX also used on E and E2 I never saw a photo of this seat on the R. but there’s a lot I haven’t seen.
The original EX seat I measured is how I built mine.

Rolly

Mike Simpson of Hood, California had an original 1909 Stanley model R with the folding iron framed rear seat. I would assume that Mike's was an original rear seat. The Stanley Museum has on their model R, a rear sear copied from Mike's original rear seat. On this Stanleysteamers.com site, years ago I had posted a photo of Mike's maroon model R with a decent view of his rear seat. It is still lingering there for you to view it. There shouldn't be any obvious differences between Mike's and the Museum's rear seats.

I found it Pat
Rolly

[www.stanleysteamers.com]

here’s another one.

[www.stanleysteamers.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2013 08:26PM by Rolly.

Thanks Guys. The photo I attached was of the Estes Park car. It is a bit hard to see but it does not have the same method of the rear sitting on the back rail. Attached is another photo of an original one (I think) that seems to show a piece with a hole in it which the veticals seem to sit down into?

Jeff

Al Martin's model R and the Stanley museums's model R are both the same Stanley. Loren Burch and Al Martin worked together to create Al's model R and they used Mike's model R for reference. In his will, Al Martin donated his R to the Stanley Museum. The Estes Park Stanley Museum has since used this R for years in their Stanley display. I have toured with both Mike's and Al's model Rs and they both have given me great memories. The best memory of riding in a model R though, is with Steve Richter giving me a speed run at over 80 mph on the level, and it easily maintained 80+ mph.

There appear to have been at least two 1909 catalogs, one of which doesn't mention the Model R. Attached are pages from the other; the text describes the third rear seat option only as "full" and "undivided".

Also attached is a photo of the Mike Simpson car before restoration. It shows a full and undivided rear seat, but not of the open rod framework type. I understand Simpson was a highly skilled fabricator - no doubt he could have created a open framework bench seat that looked exactly right for the period.

In fact, Simpson himself made further changes to his car after the StanleySteamers.com photo was taken, including replacement of the bench seat with a single bucket, which it has today. So the Al Martin replica may be the only remaining record of the Mike Simpson bench seat.

There may be no more than 3 other Model R's, beside the Simpson car, #5002, which have an uninterrupted history from Stanley factory delivery. The Schieffelin car, #4752, had no rear seat when acquired in unrestored condition. George Schieffelin had the single rear seat created, and that one has served as the model for many other reproduction Model R single buckets.

The unrestored photo of the Frank Ewing car, #4973, shows the double bucket seat. I haven't found any unrestored photos of #5003, the Ed Jameson car, but it has the single bucket.

Kit Foster's book has only one non-catalog picture of an R, with Fred Marriott, showing the single bucket. There are some significant privately-held collections of period Stanley photos - perhaps one of these, or the archive in the Stanley Museum, would shed more light on the 1909 Model R's "undivided" seat.

Kelly

I went through my vintage photos and I did not find any original "R" photos with the folding iron back seat. I have about 24 vintage R photos. I did find a photo of Brad Austin's model R with a folding iron back seat. Brad's R was created by Alan Kelso, so for it having an original rear seat, that possibility is out. Maybe Brad Austin's folding iron rear seat was Mike Simpson's rear seat? Which brings to mind that most likely, from what we have found, Mike's folding iron rear seat was probably built by Mike?

From what Kelly posted, I take it, this is a Stanley publication.
Then one had a chose of five seat arrangements for the Model R
Have at it Jeff.

1. A single rumble with folding back. (I take this to be a wagon seat.)
2. A double rumble with folding back.
3. Duplicate of the front seat. (I take this to be two buckets.)
4. A full undivided seat. (I take this to be like most front seats of the 06 to 09 period.
5. A single bucket seat.
The list does not include the single bucket rear bucket seat but the photo does. I imagine the printing was an oversight.

I am not sure about the rumble (wagon seat) where the rear seat goes when folded down. From what I can tell about the pivot points it must go all the way down in front of the seat. Why?

My EX folds forward and closes off the rear compartment, it’s made to tuck under the back of the front seat. You have to be careful laying out the hardware to get this right.
See attachment.

Rolly

I now have my doubt’s if there ever was a wagon seat with folding back offered for the Model R
In Kit Foster’s book page 151 there is a 1909 Model E-2 with a single rear seat with a high back shown. Could this be what was called the Rumble seat with folding back as listed in the Add for the Model R
Rolly

The following information was gleaned from the Stanley Season Catalogs, which were printed and distributed by the Stanley Motor Carriage Company at the beginning of each new model season. Lets sort out the seat descriptions.... There was no mention in the Model "R" sales catalog of a "folding" rumble seat on the rear. They were just rumble seats. In the Stanley 1909 Season Catalog, (1) the single rumble seat was no more than the shallow bucket seat. The (2) double rumble was offered with two short bucket seats or also it could be had with (3) a double rumble which was the duplicate of the divided front seat and at the same height. (4) The rear seat could also be had as a full undivided two passenger seat like what is found on the 1910 model 61 touring. Then the last option was (5) "no rear seat" showing just a neat plain artillery box. The "Wagon seat" that was earlier referred to as the seat in question in the above forum posting and I called a folding iron seat, in the Stanley season catalogs, it was being referred to as the "Flat Rear Seat". With the original information that we have so far, from the Stanley factory, the "Flat Rear Seat" was only available on the 10 HP Stanleys.

Pat is the attached that Kelly posted from the Stanley catalog?
And if so what is the Rumble seat with the folding back?

Look at the E-2 seat on page 151 Kit Foster’s book.
Rolly
[stanleysteamers.com]

Rolly, The photo that Kelly posted is from the Stanley 1909 Season Catalog and the text that goes along with the photo calls the rear bucket seat a "Rumble Seat". The picture on page 151 that you were referring to is the same type of "Rumble Seat" but a taller back rest has been added to it. That E2's added back rest is not listed in the season catalogs.

Wow, as with everything Stanley, there is never a simple answer - I'm going to stick with what I think is a single rumble with a folding back. I just have to figure out how the back fits down when in place!

Jeff

Mike Simpson took off his "flat rear seat" and replaced it with a single low rumble seat. (low bucket) It would be a "good guess" that the reason why he changed seats is that he soon found out that the flat rear seat was not correct for his model R. Mike also removed his folding convertible top too. His seats were not strong enough to keep the top in place. More than once the wind had torn both the top and the seats lose from the model R body. He said that it was quite an experience to have his seats with its top still attached, leave his model R while he was driving the R down the road. Mike held firmly onto the steering wheel and the R only suffered body damage. Memories.... May you rest in peace, Mike.

David Nergaard sent me the attached photo.
Very helpful in my understanding of the specification of the Model R seats.

The Model 62 1911 catalog is the same seat as shown on the 1909 E2 page 151 of Kit Fosters book. Looking closely you can see how the extended back folds down. I think this is the same seat referred to in the specification for the Model R rumble seat with a folding back.
Rolly
Another seat for the Model 62 1911 was the folding bench seat.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2013 02:41PM by Rolly.

Rolly, Your above scan is a good find of a rare (Stanley) item. Thank you for coming up with it.

That last photo is similar to the one I saw Rolly. So I guess what I am building is a folding bench seat. If they were putting them on EX,s and Model 62's, I'm guessing it was an option for the R as well. And more importantly, it saves me having to laminate the back seats - building the front seats was quite enough!

Jeff

Jeff
I don’t think Currier & Cameron & Co would mind. They built all of the Stanley body’s till 1923 when they closed the doors. They started of building horse drawn wagons and ended up building car body’s for over 75 different makes of cars. I would imagine they used the same seat or similar seats on many different body’s and makes of cars.
They were partners with Shields, Leitch, and Briggs. It has been reported that Shields did most of the finished painting. But I know they also built body’s as subcontractors from Currier. I’m not sure of what Leitch and Briggs did.
Good luck with the seat and keep us posted.

Attached is a photo of a steel ¼-20 furniture fastening I used to attach the steel to the wood seat. Better then wood screws. You can’t pull this out without ripping the wood apart using a crowbar and two hands.
Rolly

Thanks Rolly, I'll post a picture when I get it done.

Jeff

Production of a few of the more popular models of 1909 were E2=475, R=100, U=101, Z=33. I have several vintage photos of the 1909 model R and maybe it should not be surprising, but a large number of the model Rs were being used without a rear seat and they were used with only the artillery box being mounted on the back. Most likely they were delivered without a rear seat at all. It would be very interesting to know how many model Rs were using what rear seat types as delivered in 1909. Being over a hundred years ago, today there is just no way to know how many and of what rear seats were delivered. Of the unusual folding back rest used on the single rumble seat of the model E2, I have also seen a similar seat back used on Tom Marshall's 1908 model M's back seat. On Tom's M, there is also a rumble seat lid that covers the M's rumble seat when its not in use.