1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
New steam car engine developed in Germany
Posted by: Martin Werbeck (IP Logged)
Date: September 03, 2002 01:07PM
<HTML>Ever heard from the "Zero-emission-Engine" developed by the IAV GmbH in Berlin ?
This is a new 3 - cyl single acting motor/steam generator unit with a new kind of burner
giving extremely low emissions. To boost thermal efficiency, the cylinder head is heated
by a second burner. Temperatures are very high (900 °Celsius) and lubrication is proposed
to be with a thin water/steam layer. Max thermal efficiency is about 24 %, and does not fall below 18 % at low power outputs, and the fuel consumption is calculated to be not higher than a modern turbo - diesel. Weight of power unit is 120 kg (around 250 lb)and power
output at moment is around 45 hp and should be 75 hp when fully developed. Cut-off and torque is variable - so NO gearbox is used. Anybody`s interested ??
If you want pictures and more information (also in English), look in the Internet at the
IAV GmbH Berlin homepage for the Dampfmotor or steam engine; [www.iav.de]
My personal opinion is that this project is a serious attempt ( not an improvised engine using ic-engine parts) and has been developed to a relatively high standart so far. I am sceptical wether it would stand the high temperatures for long in everyday service, although there is no other way to achieve really high thermal efficiencies. Nevertheless
I think 24 % should be possible with lower Temps., e.g. the Paxton Phoenix achieved
23 % with 1200 °F (650 °C). A disatvantage of the design is the undesirable large clearance volume , because of the superheater- cylinder head, causing perhaps unnessecary high steam consumption rates at short cut-offs.
Martin Werbeck.</HTML>
This is a new 3 - cyl single acting motor/steam generator unit with a new kind of burner
giving extremely low emissions. To boost thermal efficiency, the cylinder head is heated
by a second burner. Temperatures are very high (900 °Celsius) and lubrication is proposed
to be with a thin water/steam layer. Max thermal efficiency is about 24 %, and does not fall below 18 % at low power outputs, and the fuel consumption is calculated to be not higher than a modern turbo - diesel. Weight of power unit is 120 kg (around 250 lb)and power
output at moment is around 45 hp and should be 75 hp when fully developed. Cut-off and torque is variable - so NO gearbox is used. Anybody`s interested ??
If you want pictures and more information (also in English), look in the Internet at the
IAV GmbH Berlin homepage for the Dampfmotor or steam engine; [www.iav.de]
My personal opinion is that this project is a serious attempt ( not an improvised engine using ic-engine parts) and has been developed to a relatively high standart so far. I am sceptical wether it would stand the high temperatures for long in everyday service, although there is no other way to achieve really high thermal efficiencies. Nevertheless
I think 24 % should be possible with lower Temps., e.g. the Paxton Phoenix achieved
23 % with 1200 °F (650 °C). A disatvantage of the design is the undesirable large clearance volume , because of the superheater- cylinder head, causing perhaps unnessecary high steam consumption rates at short cut-offs.
Martin Werbeck.</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine developed in Germany
Posted by: tom ward (IP Logged)
Date: September 04, 2002 08:37PM
<HTML>After checking out their website their engine is an excellent example of engineering overkill. Exotic alloys (which may not be easily obtained by outsiders ) makes any product too expensive. There may not be enough alloy available for mass prodution which limits the market size. The world needs engineers who create products that can be built of locally available materials by common craftsmen of 90% of the world. If this engine broke a small part while touring Mexico it could be months before your part arrives from Deutschland. A Stanley could have a good enough part made by a local blacksmith within 24 hours.
These engineers at IAV design to impress in the boardroom of IAV not to impress customers in the showroom. Don't look for this engine to be on the market anytime soon.</HTML>
These engineers at IAV design to impress in the boardroom of IAV not to impress customers in the showroom. Don't look for this engine to be on the market anytime soon.</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine developed in Germany
Posted by: nagel f.stone jr. (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2002 01:09AM
<HTML>
9-16-02 9:29p
when i was a young lad of ~ 12 yrs. of age my father took
me / us to either newton or watertown mass. to visit with a
fred marriot, the man who set the world' s land speed record
in a stanley steam race car !!! i believe this took place in the
early 1950's . we also had a ride in a steam car. they also
talked at length about steam. he was employed on the B&M
r. r. as a enginehouseman and was very knowledgeable and
interested in steam.[ my father, that is ]
at the round house, in reading, mass. i can remember many
things, such as the locomotives taking on water after thier comm-
uter runs and then moving on to the turntable before backing
in to the roundhouse for the night!! some times the engine crew
would let me ride in the locomotive cab during this exercise!
the engine house had a steam pumping room, which was used
to replenish the depleted water tank and shelter especially dur-
ing the winter months. the water came from a well field beside
the roundhouse the steam to operate the pump and to heat the
engine room was from tapping the locomotive nearest the room!!
i have many other fond memories and gained much knowledge
and insite from these experiences and my father during these years
and even now find it of use and thought provoking these many years
later.
he owned a 10 h. p. stanley steamer engine, which he dreamed
of putting into a car this did not happen and he later sold it !
today i'am a machinist and could have done something with it
nice thought !!
sincerely,
nagel f. stone jr.
33 orange st.
reading mass.
01867-2628</HTML>
9-16-02 9:29p
when i was a young lad of ~ 12 yrs. of age my father took
me / us to either newton or watertown mass. to visit with a
fred marriot, the man who set the world' s land speed record
in a stanley steam race car !!! i believe this took place in the
early 1950's . we also had a ride in a steam car. they also
talked at length about steam. he was employed on the B&M
r. r. as a enginehouseman and was very knowledgeable and
interested in steam.[ my father, that is ]
at the round house, in reading, mass. i can remember many
things, such as the locomotives taking on water after thier comm-
uter runs and then moving on to the turntable before backing
in to the roundhouse for the night!! some times the engine crew
would let me ride in the locomotive cab during this exercise!
the engine house had a steam pumping room, which was used
to replenish the depleted water tank and shelter especially dur-
ing the winter months. the water came from a well field beside
the roundhouse the steam to operate the pump and to heat the
engine room was from tapping the locomotive nearest the room!!
i have many other fond memories and gained much knowledge
and insite from these experiences and my father during these years
and even now find it of use and thought provoking these many years
later.
he owned a 10 h. p. stanley steamer engine, which he dreamed
of putting into a car this did not happen and he later sold it !
today i'am a machinist and could have done something with it
nice thought !!
sincerely,
nagel f. stone jr.
33 orange st.
reading mass.
01867-2628</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine developed in Germany
Posted by: nagel f.stone jr. (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2002 04:33PM
<HTML>
<a href="mailto:http://www.uni-essen.de (no personal e-mail available)?subject=New steam car engine developed in Germany">Martin Werbeck</a> wrote:
>
> Ever heard from the "Zero-emission-Engine" developed by
> the IAV GmbH in Berlin ?
> This is a new 3 - cyl single acting motor/steam generator
> unit with a new kind of burner
> giving extremely low emissions. To boost thermal efficiency,
> the cylinder head is heated
> by a second burner. Temperatures are very high (900 °Celsius)
> and lubrication is proposed
> to be with a thin water/steam layer. Max thermal efficiency
> is about 24 %, and does not fall below 18 % at low power
> outputs, and the fuel consumption is calculated to be not
> higher than a modern turbo - diesel. Weight of power unit is
> 120 kg (around 250 lb)and power
> output at moment is around 45 hp and should be 75 hp when
> fully developed. Cut-off and torque is variable - so NO
> gearbox is used. Anybody`s interested ??
> If you want pictures and more information (also in
> English), look in the Internet at the
> IAV GmbH Berlin homepage for the Dampfmotor or steam engine;
> [www.iav.de]
> My personal opinion is that this project is a serious
> attempt ( not an improvised engine using ic-engine parts) and
> has been developed to a relatively high standart so far. I am
> sceptical wether it would stand the high temperatures for
> long in everyday service, although there is no other way to
> achieve really high thermal efficiencies. Nevertheless
> I think 24 % should be possible with lower Temps., e.g. the
> Paxton Phoenix achieved
> 23 % with 1200 °F (650 °C). A disatvantage of the design is
> the undesirable large clearance volume , because of the
> superheater- cylinder head, causing perhaps unnessecary high
> steam consumption rates at short cut-offs.
> Martin Werbeck.</HTML>
<a href="mailto:http://www.uni-essen.de (no personal e-mail available)?subject=New steam car engine developed in Germany">Martin Werbeck</a> wrote:
>
> Ever heard from the "Zero-emission-Engine" developed by
> the IAV GmbH in Berlin ?
> This is a new 3 - cyl single acting motor/steam generator
> unit with a new kind of burner
> giving extremely low emissions. To boost thermal efficiency,
> the cylinder head is heated
> by a second burner. Temperatures are very high (900 °Celsius)
> and lubrication is proposed
> to be with a thin water/steam layer. Max thermal efficiency
> is about 24 %, and does not fall below 18 % at low power
> outputs, and the fuel consumption is calculated to be not
> higher than a modern turbo - diesel. Weight of power unit is
> 120 kg (around 250 lb)and power
> output at moment is around 45 hp and should be 75 hp when
> fully developed. Cut-off and torque is variable - so NO
> gearbox is used. Anybody`s interested ??
> If you want pictures and more information (also in
> English), look in the Internet at the
> IAV GmbH Berlin homepage for the Dampfmotor or steam engine;
> [www.iav.de]
> My personal opinion is that this project is a serious
> attempt ( not an improvised engine using ic-engine parts) and
> has been developed to a relatively high standart so far. I am
> sceptical wether it would stand the high temperatures for
> long in everyday service, although there is no other way to
> achieve really high thermal efficiencies. Nevertheless
> I think 24 % should be possible with lower Temps., e.g. the
> Paxton Phoenix achieved
> 23 % with 1200 °F (650 °C). A disatvantage of the design is
> the undesirable large clearance volume , because of the
> superheater- cylinder head, causing perhaps unnessecary high
> steam consumption rates at short cut-offs.
> Martin Werbeck.</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine developed in Germany
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2002 07:48PM
<HTML>Martin,
If memory serves me correctly(and that is something to be questioned) believe this engine was discussed on a much earlier thread many pages back under "old messages". Some of those comments may be informative. A modern engine should not weigh 250# to produce 45-75HP but the original publicity pictures were interesting. Forget what old thread this discussion may have been on, keep clicking on older messages page by page if you want to find them.
Best, George</HTML>
If memory serves me correctly(and that is something to be questioned) believe this engine was discussed on a much earlier thread many pages back under "old messages". Some of those comments may be informative. A modern engine should not weigh 250# to produce 45-75HP but the original publicity pictures were interesting. Forget what old thread this discussion may have been on, keep clicking on older messages page by page if you want to find them.
Best, George</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine developed in Germany
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 18, 2002 07:10AM
<HTML>Hi George,
If this is the engine I'm thinking of (Enginion?), the discussion was on the SACA discussion board [www.steamautomobile.com] under "New Steam Powered Skoda?" or title to that effect.
Peter</HTML>
If this is the engine I'm thinking of (Enginion?), the discussion was on the SACA discussion board [www.steamautomobile.com] under "New Steam Powered Skoda?" or title to that effect.
Peter</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine (SAE papers)
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: September 19, 2002 11:20PM
<HTML>From reading the site it appears the car engine was the start of the spin off that became Enigion, now aimed at heat and power generation with a wankel expander rather than a single acting piston engine.
The two PDF's are worth searching out and reading. I could only get to them throught the site map under IAV group/Affilated Companies/TEA.
One of the PDF's lists in the bibliography a huge number of SAE papers refering to steam vehicles such as the Dutcher, SES, Carters, GM.
Any recomendations as to which papers are worth getting copies of?
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
The two PDF's are worth searching out and reading. I could only get to them throught the site map under IAV group/Affilated Companies/TEA.
One of the PDF's lists in the bibliography a huge number of SAE papers refering to steam vehicles such as the Dutcher, SES, Carters, GM.
Any recomendations as to which papers are worth getting copies of?
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine (SAE papers)
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: September 24, 2002 06:51PM
<HTML>Mark,
Believe the Dutcher papers are very therough and technical--worth reviewing. The Jay Carter car actually ran down the highway at possibly 80MPH---he still puts up the majority of prize money for the SACA/NTL time trial prizes. It worked very well and both are worth looking at. I don't think the SES car ever ran on the road and was a 4 cyl simple when under very carefully controlled test conditions performed well, the GM car was destined to prove that Detroit was right about gasoline engines and steam wrong. But again caution any reader that I am rapidly becoming a senior senile.
Papers on the Williams and Prichard cars would be worth study as they were both small high speed engines of rather impressive efficiencies as was the Carter car. Now where are these cars so they can be restored and put back into action??
Best, George</HTML>
Believe the Dutcher papers are very therough and technical--worth reviewing. The Jay Carter car actually ran down the highway at possibly 80MPH---he still puts up the majority of prize money for the SACA/NTL time trial prizes. It worked very well and both are worth looking at. I don't think the SES car ever ran on the road and was a 4 cyl simple when under very carefully controlled test conditions performed well, the GM car was destined to prove that Detroit was right about gasoline engines and steam wrong. But again caution any reader that I am rapidly becoming a senior senile.
Papers on the Williams and Prichard cars would be worth study as they were both small high speed engines of rather impressive efficiencies as was the Carter car. Now where are these cars so they can be restored and put back into action??
Best, George</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine (SAE papers)
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: September 24, 2002 11:22PM
<HTML>George, et al,
There were two G.M. cars. SE-101 the one they built into a stretched Pontiac and it never would work. SA engine designed in England.
SE-124 the Besler car, and it certainly did work. Emeryville to Palm Springs and back with just Bill in the car, no trouble. Emeryville to Los Angeles with four people in the car, and again not one problem.
I got the Dutcher car donated to the Harrah Museum in Reno, also the Besler car. I have no idea what they did with the Dutcher car and the Besler Chevy was sold off and now belongs to Tom Kimmel.
Jim</HTML>
There were two G.M. cars. SE-101 the one they built into a stretched Pontiac and it never would work. SA engine designed in England.
SE-124 the Besler car, and it certainly did work. Emeryville to Palm Springs and back with just Bill in the car, no trouble. Emeryville to Los Angeles with four people in the car, and again not one problem.
I got the Dutcher car donated to the Harrah Museum in Reno, also the Besler car. I have no idea what they did with the Dutcher car and the Besler Chevy was sold off and now belongs to Tom Kimmel.
Jim</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine (SAE papers)
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: September 25, 2002 10:37AM
<HTML>Thanks Jim,
I had only read the papers on the GM SE-101 , never Beslers great car. Hopefully Tom Kimmel can bring it back to life, somebody should!
Best, George</HTML>
I had only read the papers on the GM SE-101 , never Beslers great car. Hopefully Tom Kimmel can bring it back to life, somebody should!
Best, George</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine (SAE papers)
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: September 25, 2002 12:12PM
<HTML>George,
Tried to find out in the SAE library if there is a paper on SE-124; but it does not look as if there is one. Do not recall Besler & Co. ever writing one.
Kimmel seems content to just have the car and not restore it an run it.
If I had known Harrah's were going to sell it, I would probably have bought it myself. Actually the Besler Kaiser conversion was a lot faster. Nice little engine.
Jim</HTML>
Tried to find out in the SAE library if there is a paper on SE-124; but it does not look as if there is one. Do not recall Besler & Co. ever writing one.
Kimmel seems content to just have the car and not restore it an run it.
If I had known Harrah's were going to sell it, I would probably have bought it myself. Actually the Besler Kaiser conversion was a lot faster. Nice little engine.
Jim</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine (SAE papers)
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: September 29, 2002 12:53PM
<HTML>The testing of both the GM SE-101 and the Brobeck SE-124 was described in SAE paper 700670, by staff members of the GM research lab. I suspect the authors had a significant bias against steam.
The Brobeck steam bus was written up in Automotive Engineering vol. 80 #9 Sept. '72 pp. 43-47. which is an abstract of SAE paper 720684, by a Brobeck staff member.</HTML>
The Brobeck steam bus was written up in Automotive Engineering vol. 80 #9 Sept. '72 pp. 43-47. which is an abstract of SAE paper 720684, by a Brobeck staff member.</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine (SAE papers)
Posted by: Graeme Vagg (IP Logged)
Date: October 06, 2002 01:10PM
<HTML>The first Pritchard Steam Car (converted Ford Falcoln) was sold to someone in Western Australia and required little work to get it running again. The second car that was built from scratch was seen at the Dreamworld Theme Park museum in South East Queensland, Australia, a few years ago. An engine was displayed outside the car. Three engines were built and bench testing carried out but funds ran out before the car could be completed.
I understand Carter still has his car.
I heard that the Williams family still had one of two cars a couple of years ago but do not know which models they were. My favourite is the 1960 roadster that was claimed to be able to do 120 mph. Would love to see that one restored and running around. The power plant was quite big compared to Carter's standard, but if you can hoon around in a flashy car without making a noise, who cares how big the hardware under the body shell is. You need considerable resources and interest to keep one off vehicles like this alive so having them as part of a good collection on public display is probably the best outcome.
gv</HTML>
I understand Carter still has his car.
I heard that the Williams family still had one of two cars a couple of years ago but do not know which models they were. My favourite is the 1960 roadster that was claimed to be able to do 120 mph. Would love to see that one restored and running around. The power plant was quite big compared to Carter's standard, but if you can hoon around in a flashy car without making a noise, who cares how big the hardware under the body shell is. You need considerable resources and interest to keep one off vehicles like this alive so having them as part of a good collection on public display is probably the best outcome.
gv</HTML>
Re: New steam car engine (SAE papers)
Posted by: Ted Pritchard (IP Logged)
Date: October 08, 2002 05:59AM
<HTML>Thanks Graeme for supplying some inf on what happened to a couple of my steam car projects. If anyone wants some more inf please check out my web site [link on this web site] or go for [prsteam.inventdata.com.au] and/or e-mail me at address listed on my web site.
Best Wishes to all you enthusiasts! Ted Pritchard</HTML>
Best Wishes to all you enthusiasts! Ted Pritchard</HTML>
request
Posted by: javad neyestani (IP Logged)
Date: April 27, 2004 09:56AM
<HTML>hello
thanks for your information.
if that is possible for you please send a number of gasoline or diesel engine performance and parts endurance test standards for me.
previously I thank you.</HTML>
thanks for your information.
if that is possible for you please send a number of gasoline or diesel engine performance and parts endurance test standards for me.
previously I thank you.</HTML>
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