1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
metal fibre burners
Posted by: Ron Parola (IP Logged)
Date: September 07, 2002 04:55PM
<HTML>Has anyone tried using metal fibre burners in place of the cast iron ones in a Stanley? The burners from Acotech certainly look interesting, Thanks Ron P</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: September 07, 2002 10:00PM
<HTML>Are they blue flame or infrared emitting burners? Stanley boilers won't tolerate much radiant energy to the crown sheet.</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 08, 2002 04:56AM
<HTML>Hi Ron and David,
I wrote to one of these metal fiber flameholder manufacturers for a quote. The material is obscenely expensive, way beyond my project budget anyway. Burners with metal fiber flameholders can burn continuously in either radiant heat mode -- metal fiber matrix glowing red/orange hot with combustion happening entirely within it -- or in blue flame mode. Depends on how much fuel/air is pumped thru. Low firing rates = radiant; higher firing rates = blue flame. Nice material, but personally I will wait until the price comes down to earth, or at least to some planet in this solar system.
Peter</HTML>
I wrote to one of these metal fiber flameholder manufacturers for a quote. The material is obscenely expensive, way beyond my project budget anyway. Burners with metal fiber flameholders can burn continuously in either radiant heat mode -- metal fiber matrix glowing red/orange hot with combustion happening entirely within it -- or in blue flame mode. Depends on how much fuel/air is pumped thru. Low firing rates = radiant; higher firing rates = blue flame. Nice material, but personally I will wait until the price comes down to earth, or at least to some planet in this solar system.
Peter</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Howard Randall (IP Logged)
Date: September 10, 2002 10:46AM
<HTML>Peter, you got further then I did with these folks.
I called the Atlanta branch and got a cold shoulder from the GM.
I think they are looking to get the burner design work as well, and then, only for those applications that have volume potential.
I got a line on them via Arthur D. Little, a Boston based think thank and consulting firm.
I met one of A.D. Little's engineers who works on appliance design. She indicated that this material has a very high heat output per unit area. When I read the first message on the "Hot Head" engine, I immediately thought of this material.
I think this material has great potential for future designs as well as antique steam car restoration. I am going to try to get a small piece to build a pilot or to purchase one of their smaller, existing designs, that might be modified as a pilot. I also hope to talk with Alan Woolf, who is an engineer, and lives near by their Atlanta office. Perhaps a visit might get them to be more flexible working with our interest group.</HTML>
I called the Atlanta branch and got a cold shoulder from the GM.
I think they are looking to get the burner design work as well, and then, only for those applications that have volume potential.
I got a line on them via Arthur D. Little, a Boston based think thank and consulting firm.
I met one of A.D. Little's engineers who works on appliance design. She indicated that this material has a very high heat output per unit area. When I read the first message on the "Hot Head" engine, I immediately thought of this material.
I think this material has great potential for future designs as well as antique steam car restoration. I am going to try to get a small piece to build a pilot or to purchase one of their smaller, existing designs, that might be modified as a pilot. I also hope to talk with Alan Woolf, who is an engineer, and lives near by their Atlanta office. Perhaps a visit might get them to be more flexible working with our interest group.</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: September 10, 2002 02:06PM
<HTML>Gentlemen,
This one firm is not the only one in the business of making surface combustion burners. It's a good one; but there are others.
Porus ceramic and stacked metal rings with spacers are still in the running for a concentric helical construction.
It would be nice to use a commercial source; but this silly pricing won't stop our investigations. Let us continue by all means.
Jim</HTML>
This one firm is not the only one in the business of making surface combustion burners. It's a good one; but there are others.
Porus ceramic and stacked metal rings with spacers are still in the running for a concentric helical construction.
It would be nice to use a commercial source; but this silly pricing won't stop our investigations. Let us continue by all means.
Jim</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: September 10, 2002 02:36PM
<HTML>Bekaert is the company that makes the different types of wire blankets. They have a joint venture with Shell oil for burner development.
Acotech NV is a joint venture between Bekaert and Shell, manufacturing and selling metal fibre burners for environmentally friendly surface combustion.
[www.bekaert.com];
Acotech NV is a joint venture between Bekaert and Shell, manufacturing and selling metal fibre burners for environmentally friendly surface combustion.
[www.bekaert.com];
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 11, 2002 05:01AM
<HTML>Howard: One thing I do is never mention the dreaded "S" word -- "steam" -- to potential suppliers. Even tubing is for a "heat exchanger" rather than a "boiler". I have found that the less info I give to or request from a supplier, the better. More info only gives them the liability willies. I ask for quote on the product, & sometimes briefly mention (not describe) intended use in an "experimental prototype" device (burner in this case), to evaluate the product's suitability. I never mention "steam" or "steam system", and usually don't even mention the intended application at all. Brief requests in writing are more successful than phone calls. I politely mention "can not discuss project details" patent/trade secret considerations _if_ they ask questions about intended use. It is none of a supplier's business what I will use the stuff for anyway. I want a quote, and/or the product, not their advice. Successful quote requests are usually 2-3 short sentences at most. By following these hard-learned guidelines, I have successfully gotten formal written quotes from all sorts of major suppliers -- some have even ended up pestering me to buy even when I thanked them & told them their product was outside of my project's budgetary or technical requirements.
The supplier I wrote to would only sell the material in large sheets (big enough for maybe 2 Stanley-sized burners), and you really don't want to know the price of those, trust me. The quotes were marked "confidential", so I shouldn't disclose the figures or supplier here.
Jim: Well said! There are many, many excellent options in the burner/flameholder department, and if one company wants to be a rock in the river, we can flow right around them. Disks & washers are a great idea, D.A. Warriner's stacked corrugated wood fasteners are cheap and easy, and drilled or slotted sheet metal or castings are still good options too. There is also perforated stainless steel sheet out there, available in a variety of materials, aperture sizes, and opening areas. Not to mention lava disks, ceramic disks, and more. All these things have been used very successfully.
Rolly: GB Gilbert also found makers of metal fiber flameholder material in Korea and India, as I recall. Perhaps he will kick in some url's, time permitting.
Peter</HTML>
The supplier I wrote to would only sell the material in large sheets (big enough for maybe 2 Stanley-sized burners), and you really don't want to know the price of those, trust me. The quotes were marked "confidential", so I shouldn't disclose the figures or supplier here.
Jim: Well said! There are many, many excellent options in the burner/flameholder department, and if one company wants to be a rock in the river, we can flow right around them. Disks & washers are a great idea, D.A. Warriner's stacked corrugated wood fasteners are cheap and easy, and drilled or slotted sheet metal or castings are still good options too. There is also perforated stainless steel sheet out there, available in a variety of materials, aperture sizes, and opening areas. Not to mention lava disks, ceramic disks, and more. All these things have been used very successfully.
Rolly: GB Gilbert also found makers of metal fiber flameholder material in Korea and India, as I recall. Perhaps he will kick in some url's, time permitting.
Peter</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: September 11, 2002 01:08PM
<HTML>Peter,
Tain't my idea. If you can get your hands on a copy of the "Train Shed Encyclopedia" issue that deals with self powered railcars, you will see the article on the "LOCOMOTOR" by International Harvester Co. A big brute of a steam powered railcar.
They used a Lamont steam generator and a central vaporizing burner of very high output. Stack of disks and spacers.
Dave Nergaard has more data references on this system.
Fibrous material is a good way to go; but there are others.
You are totally right, don't ever tell the supplier anything about how you want to use his stuff, ESPECIALLY for a steam car. Make like an FBI agent and use the "National security" dodge they use when they don't want to answer.
Jim</HTML>
Tain't my idea. If you can get your hands on a copy of the "Train Shed Encyclopedia" issue that deals with self powered railcars, you will see the article on the "LOCOMOTOR" by International Harvester Co. A big brute of a steam powered railcar.
They used a Lamont steam generator and a central vaporizing burner of very high output. Stack of disks and spacers.
Dave Nergaard has more data references on this system.
Fibrous material is a good way to go; but there are others.
You are totally right, don't ever tell the supplier anything about how you want to use his stuff, ESPECIALLY for a steam car. Make like an FBI agent and use the "National security" dodge they use when they don't want to answer.
Jim</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Dick Vennerbeck (IP Logged)
Date: September 11, 2002 04:34PM
<HTML>Here is a source of a ceramic burner material made in the UK.
[www.robaxglass.com] This
Robax glass has some very useful properties also and can be checked out at the same site.
[www.robaxglass.com];
[www.robaxglass.com] This
Robax glass has some very useful properties also and can be checked out at the same site.
[www.robaxglass.com];
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Ron Parola (IP Logged)
Date: September 11, 2002 11:37PM
<HTML>Just to stir the sh*t Here is the email address from my new best friend in Belgium... vanderschelden-marie-claire@acotech.be Her name is Marie-Claire Vanderschelden and she is the one who forwarded my request to Peter Janssens in Ga. with even a note for him to contact me. I think the US office is the problem, possibly we could do better overseas? but if the cost is so horrific I guess it really doesn't matter. I do have Acotech's address in Belgium if anyone needs it. Ron P</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: G. B. Gilbert (IP Logged)
Date: September 12, 2002 05:20AM
<HTML>
i wish i had good news, this is going to be a lack-of-progress report;
and that's a damn shame because these surface combustion burners can
give you as much freedom in design as you could want, without worries of
flame length, incomplete combustion, pollutants....
There seem to be several ways to make a surface combustion burner:
the flameless catalytic ceramic types are only available as solid panels
and i have ruled out all the ceramic 'foam' panels as too fragile.
This is a clip from an article:
Burners in Textile Mills
In the winter months, some textile mills switch from natural
gas to a mixture of propane and air to reduce operating
costs. However, ceramic infrared burners are sensitive to
this switch and may be able to handle only a narrow input
band (BTU/ft2). If the burners are under-fired for a few
minutes, they will flashback. Flashback occurs when a
flame front moves through the burner deck or flame holder.
Propane, having a lower ignition point and higher flame
speed than natural gas, increases the risk of flashback in
this situation. Flame speed is the rate at which a flame
progresses into a combustible mixture relative to the speed
of the mixture.
As a result of the shock wave created by a flashback,
ceramic tiles can literally break and fly out of the burner,
resulting in a line shutdown, lost production time and replacement
expenses. By introducing metal fiber gas burners into textile
applications that use ceramic burners, flashbacks and line shutdowns
can be eliminated.
So that seems to leave metal fiber and ceramic fiber.
The Korean site that Peter mentioned is a manufacturer of Fecralloy
which appears to be the best porous surface material available
The English pages of the site seem to be gone;
The Korean front page is here:
[www.acod.co.kr]
i never tried to get a price out of them.
Furious George said he was going to nuke Korea
so it seemed like a bad time to place an order.
The Acotech site starts here:
[www.acotech.com]
The site is great for learning about surface combustion;
watch for links to additional pages at the very bottom of a page.
They have random weave Fecralloy for sale in panels;
the perforated, knitted panels are only available as complete burners.
Go ahead and ask about prices if you want a shock.
[better turn off your voice-recognition software when you see the reply].
Southwest screens & filters also has Fecralloy ... as a filter material ... ok fine ...
It won't have the perforations needed for the higher levels of burner output
but it should work ok as a radiant burner.
[www.swfilters.com]
[www.swfilters.com]
[www.swfilters.com]
The filters look much like the cylindrical rod burners on other pages
except there is a supporting cage on the outside.
They listed these materials available : plain steel - stainless steel - copper - bronze -
- aluminium - Inconel - Monel - Hastelloy - Fecralloy
and there is a wide variety of mesh patterns and densities for the wire filters.
Does Inconel sound like a good choice?
They have offices in Belgium and Indonesia ...
i don't think i want to import the stuff
so i need to try to find the local distributors of their products...
Another interesting find is Ceramat.
It's ceramic fiber coated with silicon carbide, formed into a random weave mat
with the fiber crossings welded together. Comes in perforated and nonperforated.
Best of all, it has none of the health risks associated with ceramic fibers.
Details here:
[www.us.schott.com]
They have an outlet in California.
After four emails i still don't have a price quote,
because
"they only have an email address for an identity,
and they have a policy of never giving a price quote
unless they are certain of the identity of the recipient."
They want me to phone germany and have a chat ....
They can go suck a zeppelin.
Peter, about that 'confidential' price quote, you are not bound by anything they say.
You asked for a price, they gave it, THEN they say there is something 'confidential'
about the information ... bullshorts ... the price is shameful not confidential.
There is an interesting concept at the lower part of this page:
[www.tokyo-gas.co.jp]
a boiler where there are tubes deliberately put into the flame
to reduce the combustion temperature to reduce pollutants.
There is a combustion space beyond these tubes where combustion is completed,
followed by a conventional tube stack...
i've never seen a design like that before.
There is another source of surface combustion material, Alzeta.
[www.alzeta.com]
Their product is a ceramic called Duratherm
[www.alzeta.com]
Jim was going to check this out;
they are 10 miles from his home.
i can't locate the link for the burner manufacturer in India.
I probably have it in archived mail but it's not really worth the search.
The significant thing about the site was the way they made burners;
they used stainless wire [alloy unknown] , not really that exotic.
In some side mail with Jim and Peter, [not Heid ... must be Jeckyl ]
it came out that Coleman made a small radiant burner out of stainless wire screen.
It was formed in a sherical shape and resembled the protective weave on a microphone.
It used a bunsen type air - fuel mixer and you would connect it to a propane source.
You light it, and the flame is on the outside of the screen. You then blow on the flame
to move the flame inside the sphere of wire ...
now the whole sphere glows and emits a lot more infrared.
Point to this is, these things can be home made.
Seems that no matter what material i'm looking at [except catalytic ceramic]
all the burner ratings start at 32000 BTU per square foot and reach the start of
blue flame mode about 150000 to 200000 BTU per square foot whether perforated or not.
This can't be coincidence.
There might be a way to do it with Kaowool and a binder,
but i've already had enough asbestos exposure to last a lifetime,
so i'm not eager to explore the possibility of ceramic mesothelioma.
i'm going to keep looking for more information on metallic mesh burners;
if i find something of interest i'll pass it along.
Anyone have an opinion on Inconel as a suitable metal?
and another concept...
Does it seem reasonable to expect a surface combustion burner to work
with atomized liquid fuel?
.</HTML>
i wish i had good news, this is going to be a lack-of-progress report;
and that's a damn shame because these surface combustion burners can
give you as much freedom in design as you could want, without worries of
flame length, incomplete combustion, pollutants....
There seem to be several ways to make a surface combustion burner:
the flameless catalytic ceramic types are only available as solid panels
and i have ruled out all the ceramic 'foam' panels as too fragile.
This is a clip from an article:
Burners in Textile Mills
In the winter months, some textile mills switch from natural
gas to a mixture of propane and air to reduce operating
costs. However, ceramic infrared burners are sensitive to
this switch and may be able to handle only a narrow input
band (BTU/ft2). If the burners are under-fired for a few
minutes, they will flashback. Flashback occurs when a
flame front moves through the burner deck or flame holder.
Propane, having a lower ignition point and higher flame
speed than natural gas, increases the risk of flashback in
this situation. Flame speed is the rate at which a flame
progresses into a combustible mixture relative to the speed
of the mixture.
As a result of the shock wave created by a flashback,
ceramic tiles can literally break and fly out of the burner,
resulting in a line shutdown, lost production time and replacement
expenses. By introducing metal fiber gas burners into textile
applications that use ceramic burners, flashbacks and line shutdowns
can be eliminated.
So that seems to leave metal fiber and ceramic fiber.
The Korean site that Peter mentioned is a manufacturer of Fecralloy
which appears to be the best porous surface material available
The English pages of the site seem to be gone;
The Korean front page is here:
[www.acod.co.kr]
i never tried to get a price out of them.
Furious George said he was going to nuke Korea
so it seemed like a bad time to place an order.
The Acotech site starts here:
[www.acotech.com]
The site is great for learning about surface combustion;
watch for links to additional pages at the very bottom of a page.
They have random weave Fecralloy for sale in panels;
the perforated, knitted panels are only available as complete burners.
Go ahead and ask about prices if you want a shock.
[better turn off your voice-recognition software when you see the reply].
Southwest screens & filters also has Fecralloy ... as a filter material ... ok fine ...
It won't have the perforations needed for the higher levels of burner output
but it should work ok as a radiant burner.
[www.swfilters.com]
[www.swfilters.com]
[www.swfilters.com]
The filters look much like the cylindrical rod burners on other pages
except there is a supporting cage on the outside.
They listed these materials available : plain steel - stainless steel - copper - bronze -
- aluminium - Inconel - Monel - Hastelloy - Fecralloy
and there is a wide variety of mesh patterns and densities for the wire filters.
Does Inconel sound like a good choice?
They have offices in Belgium and Indonesia ...
i don't think i want to import the stuff
so i need to try to find the local distributors of their products...
Another interesting find is Ceramat.
It's ceramic fiber coated with silicon carbide, formed into a random weave mat
with the fiber crossings welded together. Comes in perforated and nonperforated.
Best of all, it has none of the health risks associated with ceramic fibers.
Details here:
[www.us.schott.com]
They have an outlet in California.
After four emails i still don't have a price quote,
because
"they only have an email address for an identity,
and they have a policy of never giving a price quote
unless they are certain of the identity of the recipient."
They want me to phone germany and have a chat ....
They can go suck a zeppelin.
Peter, about that 'confidential' price quote, you are not bound by anything they say.
You asked for a price, they gave it, THEN they say there is something 'confidential'
about the information ... bullshorts ... the price is shameful not confidential.
There is an interesting concept at the lower part of this page:
[www.tokyo-gas.co.jp]
a boiler where there are tubes deliberately put into the flame
to reduce the combustion temperature to reduce pollutants.
There is a combustion space beyond these tubes where combustion is completed,
followed by a conventional tube stack...
i've never seen a design like that before.
There is another source of surface combustion material, Alzeta.
[www.alzeta.com]
Their product is a ceramic called Duratherm
[www.alzeta.com]
Jim was going to check this out;
they are 10 miles from his home.
i can't locate the link for the burner manufacturer in India.
I probably have it in archived mail but it's not really worth the search.
The significant thing about the site was the way they made burners;
they used stainless wire [alloy unknown] , not really that exotic.
In some side mail with Jim and Peter, [not Heid ... must be Jeckyl ]
it came out that Coleman made a small radiant burner out of stainless wire screen.
It was formed in a sherical shape and resembled the protective weave on a microphone.
It used a bunsen type air - fuel mixer and you would connect it to a propane source.
You light it, and the flame is on the outside of the screen. You then blow on the flame
to move the flame inside the sphere of wire ...
now the whole sphere glows and emits a lot more infrared.
Point to this is, these things can be home made.
Seems that no matter what material i'm looking at [except catalytic ceramic]
all the burner ratings start at 32000 BTU per square foot and reach the start of
blue flame mode about 150000 to 200000 BTU per square foot whether perforated or not.
This can't be coincidence.
There might be a way to do it with Kaowool and a binder,
but i've already had enough asbestos exposure to last a lifetime,
so i'm not eager to explore the possibility of ceramic mesothelioma.
i'm going to keep looking for more information on metallic mesh burners;
if i find something of interest i'll pass it along.
Anyone have an opinion on Inconel as a suitable metal?
and another concept...
Does it seem reasonable to expect a surface combustion burner to work
with atomized liquid fuel?
.</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Howard Randall (IP Logged)
Date: September 12, 2002 10:31AM
<HTML>G.B., It may be a great time to place an order with Washington. If furious George does nuke them, there will be plenty of sintered metal for all!
Re:Does it seem reasonable to expect a surface combustion burner to work
with atomized liquid fuel?
Our friends at Acotech, under Applications: Residential Appliances, shows a circular metal fibre burner in a diesel fuel fired kitchen stove; under Automotive, they show metal fibre burner technology being used for the stationary heating of personal cars and trucks. The system burns the fuel of the car, heating up the engine block and the cockpit before starting to drive. Can atomized liquid fuel be powering both?
I do hope we can get their attention to work with us.
Peter: If we all promise to be seated and have EMT's by our side, with defibs at the ready, will you supply the price quote details?</HTML>
Re:Does it seem reasonable to expect a surface combustion burner to work
with atomized liquid fuel?
Our friends at Acotech, under Applications: Residential Appliances, shows a circular metal fibre burner in a diesel fuel fired kitchen stove; under Automotive, they show metal fibre burner technology being used for the stationary heating of personal cars and trucks. The system burns the fuel of the car, heating up the engine block and the cockpit before starting to drive. Can atomized liquid fuel be powering both?
I do hope we can get their attention to work with us.
Peter: If we all promise to be seated and have EMT's by our side, with defibs at the ready, will you supply the price quote details?</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: September 12, 2002 01:50PM
<HTML>Howard,
I too am asking about using a liquid fuel for this type of burner.
While they do provide the output we need, just how to handle the use of a liquid fuel is the big question.
I don't think they will work with just atomized fuel, my thinking says that it must be in gas form. Probably start up as an atomizing and let it switch automatically to post mix vaporizing. Hot gas recirculating is sure one way to go, as are the J tube type of jet engine vaporizers.
Nothing wrong with feeding the mixture in with a carburetor or throttle body injector.
There is a question in my mind about blowing a small amount of mixture into the burner drum with a spark plug inside to get it going and to warm it up, and then let the porus mat do the vaporizing.
Probably have to buy a commercial burner and experiment before making one for the car.
Who do we all know in Georgia who would be willing to go to them and buy some test burners for us? Definitely do not tell they what we are working on! Just that a research group is looking at their burner mats to see if an application is possible and NOTHING else.
The LOCOMOTOR burner had a separately fired vaporizer and the only drawing of it shows it to be a pot type, I think. Such is not suitable for a modern steam car, we need something a lot better.
Jim</HTML>
I too am asking about using a liquid fuel for this type of burner.
While they do provide the output we need, just how to handle the use of a liquid fuel is the big question.
I don't think they will work with just atomized fuel, my thinking says that it must be in gas form. Probably start up as an atomizing and let it switch automatically to post mix vaporizing. Hot gas recirculating is sure one way to go, as are the J tube type of jet engine vaporizers.
Nothing wrong with feeding the mixture in with a carburetor or throttle body injector.
There is a question in my mind about blowing a small amount of mixture into the burner drum with a spark plug inside to get it going and to warm it up, and then let the porus mat do the vaporizing.
Probably have to buy a commercial burner and experiment before making one for the car.
Who do we all know in Georgia who would be willing to go to them and buy some test burners for us? Definitely do not tell they what we are working on! Just that a research group is looking at their burner mats to see if an application is possible and NOTHING else.
The LOCOMOTOR burner had a separately fired vaporizer and the only drawing of it shows it to be a pot type, I think. Such is not suitable for a modern steam car, we need something a lot better.
Jim</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 13, 2002 05:37AM
<HTML>Hi Howard,
I mentioned in a side post to Jim the idea of spraying fuel into the flameholder at start-up, with excess air to burn out the temporary carbon buildup. The fibers might catch the carbon so it doesn't go out the stack or foul the tubes or fins, but that is a Karl Popper "testable hypothesis". Generally, spraying fuel onto a cold surface is bad practice. Igniting it in mid-air behind the flameholder, then blowing the fire into/thru it, would be better.
Okay, get the defib paddles handy and gelled/powered up.
The sintered Fecralloy quote was $500 a square foot.
Now, does anybody still care who the supplier was?
:)
Hope Furious George doesn't read that and decide it is a casus belli.
Fecralloy prices may not be lower from other suppliers, as many exotic alloys are quite expensive regardless of source. For more fun with the defibrillator (or for practice with your Fred Sanford "it's The Big One!" routine), try pricing Inconel sometime. Or titanium nitride. Fabulous materials, shocking prices.
I'm currently looking at slotted channel-section stainless sheet, cut with a screw-indexed slotting jig. This looks really lightweight and cheap.
Peter</HTML>
I mentioned in a side post to Jim the idea of spraying fuel into the flameholder at start-up, with excess air to burn out the temporary carbon buildup. The fibers might catch the carbon so it doesn't go out the stack or foul the tubes or fins, but that is a Karl Popper "testable hypothesis". Generally, spraying fuel onto a cold surface is bad practice. Igniting it in mid-air behind the flameholder, then blowing the fire into/thru it, would be better.
Okay, get the defib paddles handy and gelled/powered up.
The sintered Fecralloy quote was $500 a square foot.
Now, does anybody still care who the supplier was?
:)
Hope Furious George doesn't read that and decide it is a casus belli.
Fecralloy prices may not be lower from other suppliers, as many exotic alloys are quite expensive regardless of source. For more fun with the defibrillator (or for practice with your Fred Sanford "it's The Big One!" routine), try pricing Inconel sometime. Or titanium nitride. Fabulous materials, shocking prices.
I'm currently looking at slotted channel-section stainless sheet, cut with a screw-indexed slotting jig. This looks really lightweight and cheap.
Peter</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 13, 2002 06:53AM
<HTML>GB: thanks for the report; tireless and extensive research as usual. Yes, the India burner manufacturer was nothing special, just another example of this technology going 'round the world, and perhaps suggesting that a lower-tech approach is possible. As I recall, they said their fibers were plain stainless. On the "confidential" quote, inquiring minds wanted to know, so I spilled a few of the beans. At that price, who needs the cook. Inconel is excellent, probably the best for hi-temp burner use, but very pricey. Sounds like Schott Glass really "Schott" their bolt. I always wondered where those mini liquor tumblers in bars came from. I can't imagine running a business this way; if you want to sell something, heck, post the prices on your website. This is the 21st Century. Maybe some of these secretive companies don't want to end up explaining why their government/military sales are 8x the price charged to private parties? I say the heck with all of it; I'm going cheap slotted sheetmetal, which is pretty standard now for flameholders in stoves, water heaters, etc.. The backfire-projectile problems with ceramics may explain why Stanleys and others have those thick burner plates.
Jim: Thanks for the reference; I will see if I can locate a copy of the railroad book. That radial-outflow Lamont sounds like a great design. Yep, National Security forbids disclosure of our top-secret applications. "I could tell you, but then I'd have to terminate you". :) I had quite a few problems with getting quotes and other info, before I learned the "National Security" approach. But really, it is standard trade secret/patent related R&D practice, and probably appears more professional & business-like to suppliers because of that. If you're for real, you don't divulge much info. And the secrecy may be intriguing to them. Get more attention by whispering, and all that.
Besides liability concerns, lots of sales engineers & others seem to think that steam cars, or steam anything, is strictly for outdated kooks. It is like telling suppliers that you plan to install their product in a flying saucer for your Space Brother friends; they just won't bother dealing with you. Early on, I also ran into (and was warned about) antiquers who wouldn't even talk to modern steam car developers, and vice versa, but judging by this forum, that seems very happily to be a thing of the past.
Another thing that helps is briefly mentioning that I am "evaluating design options", "shopping around", or words to that effect. Suppliers are more helpful when they know that I don't depend on their product and will take my business elsewhere if they give me the short end of the stick. They have to compete for my business; I don't have to beg or weasel around for theirs. If they won't be competitive, then they can blow it out their flameholder.
Peter</HTML>
Jim: Thanks for the reference; I will see if I can locate a copy of the railroad book. That radial-outflow Lamont sounds like a great design. Yep, National Security forbids disclosure of our top-secret applications. "I could tell you, but then I'd have to terminate you". :) I had quite a few problems with getting quotes and other info, before I learned the "National Security" approach. But really, it is standard trade secret/patent related R&D practice, and probably appears more professional & business-like to suppliers because of that. If you're for real, you don't divulge much info. And the secrecy may be intriguing to them. Get more attention by whispering, and all that.
Besides liability concerns, lots of sales engineers & others seem to think that steam cars, or steam anything, is strictly for outdated kooks. It is like telling suppliers that you plan to install their product in a flying saucer for your Space Brother friends; they just won't bother dealing with you. Early on, I also ran into (and was warned about) antiquers who wouldn't even talk to modern steam car developers, and vice versa, but judging by this forum, that seems very happily to be a thing of the past.
Another thing that helps is briefly mentioning that I am "evaluating design options", "shopping around", or words to that effect. Suppliers are more helpful when they know that I don't depend on their product and will take my business elsewhere if they give me the short end of the stick. They have to compete for my business; I don't have to beg or weasel around for theirs. If they won't be competitive, then they can blow it out their flameholder.
Peter</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: September 13, 2002 01:51PM
<HTML>Peter,
For sure, "Our client wishes total silence about the research we are doing for them, I am sure you understand."
While porus ceramics are such are nice and spaceagey, we really don't need this. I love just buying the components off the shelf; but when the thing gets to the rediculous stage, it just isn't worth my time.
I think I will stick with the stacked ring and spacer idea and do it myself. Laser cut rings of Inconel-Hastaloy X-stainless and spacer washers of the same material. Then it is to my spec and I don't have to adapt to someones diminsions that are not optimum for me. And, not that expensive at all.
LOCOMOTOR made it work easily with a 7,000 (?) lb/hr Lamont, so I can do the same with 2500 lb/hr. Coleman stove flame holders again, on steroids.
Your slotted stainless is the same approach to this, really.
Concentrate on the vaporizer question for this type of burner.
This little group of ours really does produce results, doesn't it.
Jim</HTML>
For sure, "Our client wishes total silence about the research we are doing for them, I am sure you understand."
While porus ceramics are such are nice and spaceagey, we really don't need this. I love just buying the components off the shelf; but when the thing gets to the rediculous stage, it just isn't worth my time.
I think I will stick with the stacked ring and spacer idea and do it myself. Laser cut rings of Inconel-Hastaloy X-stainless and spacer washers of the same material. Then it is to my spec and I don't have to adapt to someones diminsions that are not optimum for me. And, not that expensive at all.
LOCOMOTOR made it work easily with a 7,000 (?) lb/hr Lamont, so I can do the same with 2500 lb/hr. Coleman stove flame holders again, on steroids.
Your slotted stainless is the same approach to this, really.
Concentrate on the vaporizer question for this type of burner.
This little group of ours really does produce results, doesn't it.
Jim</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: September 13, 2002 03:46PM
<HTML>Has any one thought of just pilling up a bunch of layers of fine stainless wire screen? You could cross the different layers at angles.
Hear is a site with a price sheet and the size of hole openings.
[www.twpinc.com];
Hear is a site with a price sheet and the size of hole openings.
[www.twpinc.com];
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Ron Parola (IP Logged)
Date: September 14, 2002 07:52PM
<HTML>Went to said site, they have a stainless 3 layer mesh that goes down to 74 microns, any thoughts? Ron P</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: September 15, 2002 02:51PM
<HTML>Ron,
A balance between flow losses due to friction and the narrow passages to at least try to stop flashback, and still flow enough to get the firing rate.
White grates had .026" slots, some now corroded up to .028" And they really went into burner engineering then. When my old White backfired it was always because of a new crack opening up or from the pilot igniting the mixture in the venturi. When I got my new grate and REALLY sealed up the pilot light, backfires were only a memory.
Just what it takes to stop the flame front from going through the slot into the venturi chamber is a delicate question.
Take it for what it's worth.
Jim</HTML>
A balance between flow losses due to friction and the narrow passages to at least try to stop flashback, and still flow enough to get the firing rate.
White grates had .026" slots, some now corroded up to .028" And they really went into burner engineering then. When my old White backfired it was always because of a new crack opening up or from the pilot igniting the mixture in the venturi. When I got my new grate and REALLY sealed up the pilot light, backfires were only a memory.
Just what it takes to stop the flame front from going through the slot into the venturi chamber is a delicate question.
Take it for what it's worth.
Jim</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Ron Parola (IP Logged)
Date: September 15, 2002 04:04PM
<HTML>Jim, backfireing for me isn't a BIG problem, yes it does occur mostly when not quite warmed up, but my grate is cracked (in three places yet). It is held together with plates and screws and since it is a new casting (well 6 years now but it did crack within a few months) I was just thinking about alteratives rather than another iron one. This is from England and it is a drilled burner, possible the casing was flawed or maybe it should have been normalized before use, who knows . Ron P</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 16, 2002 04:34AM
<HTML>Hi Jim,
Laser-cut Inconel/Hastelloy, wow. Sounds bulletproof. Rings could be split, with ID/OD curves identical/nested to cut material waste. Wish I could afford one of those industrial lasers, but I do know a company in town that does laser cutting to spec..
I have also considered chromoly for the flameholder. I know where to get chromoly tube, but still looking for a good source of sheet.
The vaporizer is the thing. It has gotten 90% of my burner design work, and will probably get almost all of the testing/design modification/rework too. Coleman stove on steroids is an apt description!
This discussion forum never fails to amaze me. Lots of the top steam car guys in the world weigh in from time to time, and the information flow is large and incredibly useful. The intensive discussion puts both newbies and old-timers on an accelerated learning curve. Wish this internet forum had been around 23 years ago when I started studying this stuff. Everybody seems to have a lot of fun here, too.
Peter</HTML>
Laser-cut Inconel/Hastelloy, wow. Sounds bulletproof. Rings could be split, with ID/OD curves identical/nested to cut material waste. Wish I could afford one of those industrial lasers, but I do know a company in town that does laser cutting to spec..
I have also considered chromoly for the flameholder. I know where to get chromoly tube, but still looking for a good source of sheet.
The vaporizer is the thing. It has gotten 90% of my burner design work, and will probably get almost all of the testing/design modification/rework too. Coleman stove on steroids is an apt description!
This discussion forum never fails to amaze me. Lots of the top steam car guys in the world weigh in from time to time, and the information flow is large and incredibly useful. The intensive discussion puts both newbies and old-timers on an accelerated learning curve. Wish this internet forum had been around 23 years ago when I started studying this stuff. Everybody seems to have a lot of fun here, too.
Peter</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Pat Farrell (IP Logged)
Date: September 16, 2002 05:06AM
<HTML>Ron, In my 735, my 26" burner casting is a two piece slotted Baker Burner that is bolted together in the middle. I have been using it for two years without any problems at all. Allen Kelso is the supplier. I think that the two piece casting makes all the difference in helping prevent cracking. I am happy with it's performance. All except that my 26" boiler now takes almost twice the time to heat from cold as my 23" boiler did. There is a lot more water to heat in the 26" 30 H.P. boiler than the smaller 23" 20 H.P. boiler. The extra water reserve for the long hills makes it worth it. I am sure that you run your 740 harder and hotter than I have ever ran my 735. The higher temperatures are harder on the grates. Tube fires? I think that I can count on one hand the tube fires that I have had while on the road.</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: G. B. Gilbert (IP Logged)
Date: September 16, 2002 05:06AM
<HTML>These are the best spex i can find so far:
The Alzeta 'Nanostar' document lists the thickness of the metal fiber mats as
ranging from 1 to 4 mm.
The figures i recall for effective porosity of burner mats of all types
ranges around 80% to 90%.
Ceramat was listed as having a porosity of 95%, its thickness was 3.5mm, and the
additional perforations, when present, were 1.4mm to 1.5mm in size.
The Duratherm rigid ceramic burner listed an air filtration requirement:
> 99% @ 1µm
i'm thinking that the pore size of a burner should be no smaller than necessary
or it will be plugged up with dust.
From Acotech:
-----------
The surface temperature of an upward fired metal fibre burner in open air increases
with the firing rate from 750°C (1380°F) at 100 kW/m² (32 MBtu/h.ft²) up to 1000°C
(1830°F) at 500 kW/m² (160 MBtu/h.ft²). After transition to the high-intensity blue flame
mode, the combustion layer becomes thinner and the surface temperature drops to
about 800°C (1470°F) at 1000 kW/m² (317 MBtu/h.ft²)
------------
There's a chart at:
[www.acotech.com]
Another document, based on Alzeta's Pyromat metal fiber mats in radiant mode,
said that the cold side of the burner stayed at inlet air temperature until
about half the thickness of the mat where it would rise sharply to 1500 to 2000F.
i'm wondering if it's alright to make a layered burner out of different materials;
put the cheaper low temperature stuff on the cold side of the mesh.
Kinda depends on how you run the burner;
at first, i thought that the burner mat would clean itself of combustable dust
when the heat traveled through the mat at shutdown, but i got nervous about backfires so
i plan on purging the burner with air when it cycles on, and again when it cycles off.
Doing that blows heat up the chimney, but i can waste a bit of heat if it helps to prevent backfires.
When purged, these burners cool down in 3 to 5 seconds,
but when the car is shut down, heat can travel into the inner layers,
and they can have heat added to them by radiation from the firebox ...
Air purging can help to keep the inner layers cool while running,
but high temperature conditions at shutdown might destroy low temperature materials.</HTML>
The Alzeta 'Nanostar' document lists the thickness of the metal fiber mats as
ranging from 1 to 4 mm.
The figures i recall for effective porosity of burner mats of all types
ranges around 80% to 90%.
Ceramat was listed as having a porosity of 95%, its thickness was 3.5mm, and the
additional perforations, when present, were 1.4mm to 1.5mm in size.
The Duratherm rigid ceramic burner listed an air filtration requirement:
> 99% @ 1µm
i'm thinking that the pore size of a burner should be no smaller than necessary
or it will be plugged up with dust.
From Acotech:
-----------
The surface temperature of an upward fired metal fibre burner in open air increases
with the firing rate from 750°C (1380°F) at 100 kW/m² (32 MBtu/h.ft²) up to 1000°C
(1830°F) at 500 kW/m² (160 MBtu/h.ft²). After transition to the high-intensity blue flame
mode, the combustion layer becomes thinner and the surface temperature drops to
about 800°C (1470°F) at 1000 kW/m² (317 MBtu/h.ft²)
------------
There's a chart at:
[www.acotech.com]
Another document, based on Alzeta's Pyromat metal fiber mats in radiant mode,
said that the cold side of the burner stayed at inlet air temperature until
about half the thickness of the mat where it would rise sharply to 1500 to 2000F.
i'm wondering if it's alright to make a layered burner out of different materials;
put the cheaper low temperature stuff on the cold side of the mesh.
Kinda depends on how you run the burner;
at first, i thought that the burner mat would clean itself of combustable dust
when the heat traveled through the mat at shutdown, but i got nervous about backfires so
i plan on purging the burner with air when it cycles on, and again when it cycles off.
Doing that blows heat up the chimney, but i can waste a bit of heat if it helps to prevent backfires.
When purged, these burners cool down in 3 to 5 seconds,
but when the car is shut down, heat can travel into the inner layers,
and they can have heat added to them by radiation from the firebox ...
Air purging can help to keep the inner layers cool while running,
but high temperature conditions at shutdown might destroy low temperature materials.</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: September 16, 2002 10:40AM
<HTML>G.B.,
Amazing technical information on the Acotech material, 30-300 million BTU's per sqare foot/hour!!!
A poor drilled Stanley would be lucky, when forced, to do 600K per hour for its entire burner surface. I wonder what the pressure differential in inches of water would be to even achieve 30 million BTU's/hr/ftsq, this is about what a Doble with exhaust turbine draft booster burns full out, 20+GPH fuel.
Thanks for such interesting info.
George</HTML>
Amazing technical information on the Acotech material, 30-300 million BTU's per sqare foot/hour!!!
A poor drilled Stanley would be lucky, when forced, to do 600K per hour for its entire burner surface. I wonder what the pressure differential in inches of water would be to even achieve 30 million BTU's/hr/ftsq, this is about what a Doble with exhaust turbine draft booster burns full out, 20+GPH fuel.
Thanks for such interesting info.
George</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: September 16, 2002 12:36PM
<HTML>Peter,
FUN is the key word. Years ago both Besler and Warren Doble told me in no uncertain terms to consider steam car projects to be fun first and don't take them seriously, because Detroit will never adopt them. Today, Detroit won't even recognize the steam car as a serious powerplant alternative, mainly because they know even less about them than they did thirty years ago, and even then their knowledge was pathetic. The not invented here syndrome.
You just gave me an idea. In place of laser cutting rings out, why not precision slot a tube of suitable metal? Same thing. Only problem I see is it cracking due to stresses.
OK, the Doble book gets finished first, only two chapters to go and my publisher is gearing up for the big job of layout and photo selections right now. Will be done with the manuscript in about two weeks.
Then I concentrate on the XKE roadster steamer. One thing at a time.
This website is more than just handy, John has given us the exact tool to make interchange of information on steamers a reality. It took the internet to get it going; but now we all have this. Thanks John.
Jim</HTML>
FUN is the key word. Years ago both Besler and Warren Doble told me in no uncertain terms to consider steam car projects to be fun first and don't take them seriously, because Detroit will never adopt them. Today, Detroit won't even recognize the steam car as a serious powerplant alternative, mainly because they know even less about them than they did thirty years ago, and even then their knowledge was pathetic. The not invented here syndrome.
You just gave me an idea. In place of laser cutting rings out, why not precision slot a tube of suitable metal? Same thing. Only problem I see is it cracking due to stresses.
OK, the Doble book gets finished first, only two chapters to go and my publisher is gearing up for the big job of layout and photo selections right now. Will be done with the manuscript in about two weeks.
Then I concentrate on the XKE roadster steamer. One thing at a time.
This website is more than just handy, John has given us the exact tool to make interchange of information on steamers a reality. It took the internet to get it going; but now we all have this. Thanks John.
Jim</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners : typo
Posted by: G. B. Gilbert (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2002 12:58AM
<HTML>Sorry to dissapoint you, that's a typo in their document, i should have corrected their mistake after the cut+paste. 100 kW/m² should be 32kBtu not 32 MBtu/h.ft².
Just inflated things a couple of orders of magnitude;
same thing happened to their prices.</HTML>
Just inflated things a couple of orders of magnitude;
same thing happened to their prices.</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners : pressure fired
Posted by: G. B. Gilbert (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2002 02:50AM
<HTML>There is a way to get the maximum blue flame output increased by an order of magnitude. If you pressure fire the burner at 10 times the current pressure, (and 10 times the air - fuel mass) the burners can be made stable at 10 times the previous firing rate.
There's a PDF document at the Alzeta site:
[www.alzeta.com]
You need to watch out for the term MBtu. To me it looks like Mega Btu, but it should be thought of as Kilo Btu. ... is this some obscure boiler term? [or the Metric Btu ?]
i thought that 100 kilowatts per square meter worked out to 32000 Btu per square foot per hour.
i checked the conversion factor:
100 kilowats = 341,517.9 Btu/hour
1 sq meter = 10.76391 sq feet
341517.9 / 10.76391 = 31728.05 roughly 32k</HTML>
There's a PDF document at the Alzeta site:
[www.alzeta.com]
You need to watch out for the term MBtu. To me it looks like Mega Btu, but it should be thought of as Kilo Btu. ... is this some obscure boiler term? [or the Metric Btu ?]
i thought that 100 kilowatts per square meter worked out to 32000 Btu per square foot per hour.
i checked the conversion factor:
100 kilowats = 341,517.9 Btu/hour
1 sq meter = 10.76391 sq feet
341517.9 / 10.76391 = 31728.05 roughly 32k</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2002 04:49AM
<HTML>Hi Jim,
Yeah, the heck with Detroit. If they want steamers, we can deal with them; if not, we need to get this stuff to market ourselves, at least on a limited-production basis. That's when they might take an interest. Though a really hot prototype might turn some corporate heads.
Slotted chromoly tube was my previous flameholder idea. Slots on top, big holes drilled in bottom, ends of tubes flattened/angle-bent/drilled/screwed into burner pan. Dropped this for the Baker approach, with flat grate & slots running clear across. Seems like this might give better flame propagation during firing rate changes. When it comes to drilled, slotted, or built-up flameholders, the possibilities are limited only by imagination, assuming correct materials, opening areas, and opening sizes. For your radial-fired app, how about a corrugated sheet drum (star cross section) with slots lasered across the points/peaks?
Currently having "fun" painting one of my properties, another "one thing" to do at a time. The steam angle is that I picked up a 6 hp (B&S Quantum), 2300 psi, 2.1 gpm DeVilbiss pressure washer for the prep work. Only $300, a cheap way to get an off the shelf steamcarable (~960 lbs/hr) water pump, with a small gas engine left over for other projects. Some 1800 psi 2.1 gpm gas engine pressure washers are only $200, so the pump alone should be cheaper. Still plan to build my own pumps though.
Safety note: at these pressures, water streams can cause nasty "injection injuries", which are "trip to hospital" occasions. Yet another thing to look out for with this high-pressure stuff; I learn something new every day. Not hard to believe, after seeing what this puppy does to wood siding unless handled carefully. High pressure pumps seem to rank somewhere between power tools and firearms in the level of caution required -- they're not just "water movers".
Peter</HTML>
Yeah, the heck with Detroit. If they want steamers, we can deal with them; if not, we need to get this stuff to market ourselves, at least on a limited-production basis. That's when they might take an interest. Though a really hot prototype might turn some corporate heads.
Slotted chromoly tube was my previous flameholder idea. Slots on top, big holes drilled in bottom, ends of tubes flattened/angle-bent/drilled/screwed into burner pan. Dropped this for the Baker approach, with flat grate & slots running clear across. Seems like this might give better flame propagation during firing rate changes. When it comes to drilled, slotted, or built-up flameholders, the possibilities are limited only by imagination, assuming correct materials, opening areas, and opening sizes. For your radial-fired app, how about a corrugated sheet drum (star cross section) with slots lasered across the points/peaks?
Currently having "fun" painting one of my properties, another "one thing" to do at a time. The steam angle is that I picked up a 6 hp (B&S Quantum), 2300 psi, 2.1 gpm DeVilbiss pressure washer for the prep work. Only $300, a cheap way to get an off the shelf steamcarable (~960 lbs/hr) water pump, with a small gas engine left over for other projects. Some 1800 psi 2.1 gpm gas engine pressure washers are only $200, so the pump alone should be cheaper. Still plan to build my own pumps though.
Safety note: at these pressures, water streams can cause nasty "injection injuries", which are "trip to hospital" occasions. Yet another thing to look out for with this high-pressure stuff; I learn something new every day. Not hard to believe, after seeing what this puppy does to wood siding unless handled carefully. High pressure pumps seem to rank somewhere between power tools and firearms in the level of caution required -- they're not just "water movers".
Peter</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2002 05:00AM
<HTML>Erratum: 2.1 gpm = 1052.1 lbs/hr.. Are off-the-shelf pumps at this delivery rate & 1800-2300 psi available for under $200?
Peter</HTML>
Peter</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2002 01:58PM
<HTML>Peter,
No, not at $200.00, more like $300-$400. But; consider that they are a proven product, off the shelf and with spare parts available with one phone call.
CAT pumps are, in my humble opinion, the best on the market. They make both piston and plunger pumps, with the plunger type having a friction operated inlet valve in the end of the plunger. Good for hot feed water. Suitable up to 3,000 psi and now probably over that. My race car had one, F-30 has two and my Jag car project will have one also. Install them and forget them, they always worked.
My way of working has not changes for years, if a suitable unit is available off the shelf, it is well worth the price. I spend my time on things I cannot buy. The engine, throttle and the steam generator and burner. The rest including the controls are off the shelf
Contacted several laser/high pressure water cutting firms around here and they have no problem at all cutting either slots or holes in a refractory metal tube.
However, from a thermal stress cracking viewpoint, I am still leaning towards the ring and spacer idea. It can wiggle all over the place and not open up.
But; I am definitely going for the concentric helical coil assembly, radial outflow. After three Doble type coil stacks, they are just too hard to make and really the very devil to get apart, if a leak shows up.
Detroit, couldn't agree more with you. Build the car, develop it quietly and then shove it in their faces.
Jim</HTML>
No, not at $200.00, more like $300-$400. But; consider that they are a proven product, off the shelf and with spare parts available with one phone call.
CAT pumps are, in my humble opinion, the best on the market. They make both piston and plunger pumps, with the plunger type having a friction operated inlet valve in the end of the plunger. Good for hot feed water. Suitable up to 3,000 psi and now probably over that. My race car had one, F-30 has two and my Jag car project will have one also. Install them and forget them, they always worked.
My way of working has not changes for years, if a suitable unit is available off the shelf, it is well worth the price. I spend my time on things I cannot buy. The engine, throttle and the steam generator and burner. The rest including the controls are off the shelf
Contacted several laser/high pressure water cutting firms around here and they have no problem at all cutting either slots or holes in a refractory metal tube.
However, from a thermal stress cracking viewpoint, I am still leaning towards the ring and spacer idea. It can wiggle all over the place and not open up.
But; I am definitely going for the concentric helical coil assembly, radial outflow. After three Doble type coil stacks, they are just too hard to make and really the very devil to get apart, if a leak shows up.
Detroit, couldn't agree more with you. Build the car, develop it quietly and then shove it in their faces.
Jim</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: j s harker (IP Logged)
Date: December 13, 2004 07:06PM
<HTML>Slightly off the subject as I am new to it, but can anyone tell me when porus ceramic blocks were first used as a source of fuel for a burner ?
Many thanks, and good luck with a fascinating technology.
John Harker</HTML>
Many thanks, and good luck with a fascinating technology.
John Harker</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Roberty Carlson (IP Logged)
Date: February 19, 2005 12:20AM
<HTML>We are a small company in Lake Bluff, Illinois, that has sucessfully produced 40 micron fiber from DIN 1.4767 metal (Fecroloy). Our process seems to allow us to make a burner face that is very competitive and is very tight and uniform. We have only begun testing and are seeking applications and partners.</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Santosh Kumar (IP Logged)
Date: February 23, 2005 05:16AM
<HTML>Dear Sir,
I am interested in your mat burners. Please, explain more about your company and products.
What kind of prices , can you offer to us.
thank you.
Santosh Kumar
Sigma AG</HTML>
I am interested in your mat burners. Please, explain more about your company and products.
What kind of prices , can you offer to us.
thank you.
Santosh Kumar
Sigma AG</HTML>
Re: metal fibre burners
Posted by: Ronald Fossum (IP Logged)
Date: April 15, 2005 02:11AM
<HTML>How does one get in touch with you?
Ron Fossum, artemis 'at' pcez.com</HTML>
Ron Fossum, artemis 'at' pcez.com</HTML>
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.