1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 10, 2002 11:51PM
<HTML>Does anybody know anything about the Fischer steam engine, which operated by injecting hot, high-pressure water directly into the engine cylinders? Supposedly the water flashed into steam, propelling the piston.
Doesn't sound like a good idea to me, but a friend keeps bugging me about it, and I can't find any info on this to refute him. Supposedly the engine was built and ran efficiently.
The part I don't buy is the claim that the engine could condense all the steam inside the cylinders, with no condenser, and still run efficiently.
The few references I could find sound related to perpetual-motion machines. Apparently some fans of this engine think that liquid water containing all the latent heat of vaporization can be pumped right back into the boiler without the heat loss of a condenser.
Anyway, does anyone know about an actual running "Fischer" (Fisher?) steam engine that runs by injecting high pressure hot water into the cylinders? Okay, my friend (who is sitting here) says the original engine did have a condenser, but it was much smaller than in a conventional steam engine. He also says this engine was built for submarines and was much more efficient than a standard steam engine.
Peter</HTML>
Doesn't sound like a good idea to me, but a friend keeps bugging me about it, and I can't find any info on this to refute him. Supposedly the engine was built and ran efficiently.
The part I don't buy is the claim that the engine could condense all the steam inside the cylinders, with no condenser, and still run efficiently.
The few references I could find sound related to perpetual-motion machines. Apparently some fans of this engine think that liquid water containing all the latent heat of vaporization can be pumped right back into the boiler without the heat loss of a condenser.
Anyway, does anyone know about an actual running "Fischer" (Fisher?) steam engine that runs by injecting high pressure hot water into the cylinders? Okay, my friend (who is sitting here) says the original engine did have a condenser, but it was much smaller than in a conventional steam engine. He also says this engine was built for submarines and was much more efficient than a standard steam engine.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: tony Peterson (IP Logged)
Date: October 11, 2002 08:02PM
<HTML>Yes the engine works perfectly. Dont argue with him he is smarter than you.</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: tony Peterson (IP Logged)
Date: October 11, 2002 08:07PM
<HTML>
<a href="mailto:ashenfern@webtv.net?subject=Fischer Steam Engine">Peter Brow</a> wrote:
>
> Does anybody know anything about the Fischer steam
> engine, which operated by injecting hot, high-pressure water
> directly into the engine cylinders? Supposedly the water
> flashed into steam, propelling the piston.
>
> Doesn't sound like a good idea to me, but a friend keeps
> bugging me about it, and I can't find any info on this to
> refute him. Supposedly the engine was built and ran
> efficiently.
>
> The part I don't buy is the claim that the engine could
> condense all the steam inside the cylinders, with no
> condenser, and still run efficiently.
>
> The few references I could find sound related to
> perpetual-motion machines. Apparently some fans of this
> engine think that liquid water containing all the latent heat
> of vaporization can be pumped right back into the boiler
> without the heat loss of a condenser.
>
> Anyway, does anyone know about an actual running "Fischer"
> (Fisher?) steam engine that runs by injecting high pressure
> hot water into the cylinders? Okay, my friend (who is
> sitting here) says the original engine did have a condenser,
> but it was much smaller than in a conventional steam engine.
> He also says this engine was built for submarines and was
> much more efficient than a standard steam engine.
>
> Peter</HTML>
<a href="mailto:ashenfern@webtv.net?subject=Fischer Steam Engine">Peter Brow</a> wrote:
>
> Does anybody know anything about the Fischer steam
> engine, which operated by injecting hot, high-pressure water
> directly into the engine cylinders? Supposedly the water
> flashed into steam, propelling the piston.
>
> Doesn't sound like a good idea to me, but a friend keeps
> bugging me about it, and I can't find any info on this to
> refute him. Supposedly the engine was built and ran
> efficiently.
>
> The part I don't buy is the claim that the engine could
> condense all the steam inside the cylinders, with no
> condenser, and still run efficiently.
>
> The few references I could find sound related to
> perpetual-motion machines. Apparently some fans of this
> engine think that liquid water containing all the latent heat
> of vaporization can be pumped right back into the boiler
> without the heat loss of a condenser.
>
> Anyway, does anyone know about an actual running "Fischer"
> (Fisher?) steam engine that runs by injecting high pressure
> hot water into the cylinders? Okay, my friend (who is
> sitting here) says the original engine did have a condenser,
> but it was much smaller than in a conventional steam engine.
> He also says this engine was built for submarines and was
> much more efficient than a standard steam engine.
>
> Peter</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: October 11, 2002 11:21PM
<HTML>Peter and Tony,
Alright, where is this information printed? Where is the article/story about it being designed for use in submarines and who ran what efficiency tests, when and how long ago? How about some definitive references.
Jim</HTML>
Alright, where is this information printed? Where is the article/story about it being designed for use in submarines and who ran what efficiency tests, when and how long ago? How about some definitive references.
Jim</HTML>
red hot Steam Engine
Posted by: c benson (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2002 12:50AM
<HTML>Hi,,From my experience water cools hot iron faster than anything,,,,an it would seem to keep this thing working the piston should remain red hot,,,say1100to1400 d,,let me know what oil works on this,,,i'm having trouble at 750d ,,,Suggest corvett rear susp' if target is over 100 mph [unsprung wt 1problem Add a countershaft w/ out of fase c/weights,,to keep it all on the ground,,,,,anyone who has been over 80 or 90 will have noticed this,,,The rail boys say the wheels almost leave the rail,,,I dont studu rail problems BUT I do recall HUGE counters on our local locos back 1937---1947,,,the mainline steamers dissapeared about then,,###Dave I think has a small orfice in the steam guage line to keep the oil in,,,All for now Ben</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2002 09:34AM
<HTML>Hi Tony,
Do you know any sources of Fischer information? If possible, I would like to read up and become as smart as my friend about this engine. Unfortunately he doesn't know of any info sources, he just "heard about it somewhere".
Peter</HTML>
Do you know any sources of Fischer information? If possible, I would like to read up and become as smart as my friend about this engine. Unfortunately he doesn't know of any info sources, he just "heard about it somewhere".
Peter</HTML>
Re: red hot Steam Engine
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2002 10:02AM
<HTML>Hi Ben,
80 is plenty for now; countershaft for higher speeds sounds good if the engine starts "pounding the rails". I read that Howard Langdon's Green Monster, with 2200 rpm Doble F engine, hit over 100 with no traction/float problems, at least none reported -- but with mysterious extra counterweight on crankshaft, hmm. I heard of Vettes with fiberglass springs, and am looking into composite axle housing to cut unsprung weight. Do Vipers have solid rear axles? They get up there in the speed dept; wonder what they have.
Peter</HTML>
80 is plenty for now; countershaft for higher speeds sounds good if the engine starts "pounding the rails". I read that Howard Langdon's Green Monster, with 2200 rpm Doble F engine, hit over 100 with no traction/float problems, at least none reported -- but with mysterious extra counterweight on crankshaft, hmm. I heard of Vettes with fiberglass springs, and am looking into composite axle housing to cut unsprung weight. Do Vipers have solid rear axles? They get up there in the speed dept; wonder what they have.
Peter</HTML>
Re: red hot Steam Engine
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2002 10:33AM
<HTML>Peter,
Langdon's "F" Doble engine was the one reworked by Besler and had extra counterweighting applied as(according to JIM) the original "F" had some real balance problems, not mysterious at all. It also had extra rings on the piston valve to cut down on valve leakage. I doubt if it could obtain 2200RPM, its horsepower curve was already dropping off at 1500RPM/piston speed over 1200FPM.
George</HTML>
Langdon's "F" Doble engine was the one reworked by Besler and had extra counterweighting applied as(according to JIM) the original "F" had some real balance problems, not mysterious at all. It also had extra rings on the piston valve to cut down on valve leakage. I doubt if it could obtain 2200RPM, its horsepower curve was already dropping off at 1500RPM/piston speed over 1200FPM.
George</HTML>
Re: red hot Steam Engine
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2002 02:55PM
<HTML>Peter,
I seriously doubt 2200 rpm, 1200-1500 yes.
Besler did add two counterweights to this one engine, as he said: "It shook the windshield back and forth 3/4" when you stepped on it at 70, (Long pause here) and that was a sedan."
This Fisher engine sounds like another fairy tale, unless someone comes up with documented proof it even existed. So many are like that.
What is it with these hot head engines?
Jim</HTML>
I seriously doubt 2200 rpm, 1200-1500 yes.
Besler did add two counterweights to this one engine, as he said: "It shook the windshield back and forth 3/4" when you stepped on it at 70, (Long pause here) and that was a sedan."
This Fisher engine sounds like another fairy tale, unless someone comes up with documented proof it even existed. So many are like that.
What is it with these hot head engines?
Jim</HTML>
Re: red hot Steam Engine
Posted by: c benson (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2002 04:36PM
<HTML>2 points to clear ,,corvette Gears are mounted on chassis frame w/universals to wheel,, wheel on A frame = lo unsprung wt' item2,,Some briggs/stratton also Poulin anti vibe chainsaws have a 2nd shaft w/WEIGHTS at90 deg to counter the crank wt phase anl,,,,stanley has lots of heavy stuff going all at once,,back an fourth bad enuff but add the rocking couple at 90 ,,,,,an the up an down Its really not that smooth,,,A counter shaker+independent suspension I think would be worth it on a modern,,,,easy mod when its on paper Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: red hot Steam Engine
Posted by: Ron Parola (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2002 06:02PM
<HTML>Just so happens I have a Jag rear end assembly lying under foot at the shop, missing only the shocks. It's got a 353 rear end and if you don't realize, they are self contained; everything lives in a cage which is then hung from the chassis. They can be found out of 69 through 87 XJ series cars and any XJS to 93/94. You can get up to a 288 rear end and the last years XJS had outboard brakes and ABS. You can also buy an aftermarket Jag suspension knockoff with a Ford 9 inch diff (TORQUE) for $4000. The point of all this is if someone needs an assembly you're welcome to this one, or call Jag Heaven in Stockton Cal, THEY'VE got plenty! Ron P</HTML>
Re: red hot Steam Engine
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2002 11:24PM
<HTML>George & Jim: Thanks for the corrections on the now not so mysterious Doble F. Don't know where I read 2200 (The Steam Automobile?), maybe it was a typo for 1200, which sounds more realistic considering the engine design. Saw pix of the Green Monster engine innards, with 6 or so rings on each end of valves & only one extra counterweight visible; two weights makes more sense. Somebody on the Lightsteam List figured the added weight was to balance the eccentrics; another thought it was to balance the different-sized pistons. How smooth did it run after the rework?
The Fisher sounds fishy to me too, but I did find some vague references to it on the web -- no solid info on who Fisher/Fischer was, when or if the engine was actually built/tested, etc.. Probably just a concept, patent, or at most an experimental prototype. Maybe that will provoke somebody to pony up some URLs that we can check out.
I don't know what it is about hot-head type engines. Perhaps boilerphobia.
Peter</HTML>
The Fisher sounds fishy to me too, but I did find some vague references to it on the web -- no solid info on who Fisher/Fischer was, when or if the engine was actually built/tested, etc.. Probably just a concept, patent, or at most an experimental prototype. Maybe that will provoke somebody to pony up some URLs that we can check out.
I don't know what it is about hot-head type engines. Perhaps boilerphobia.
Peter</HTML>
Re: red hot Steam Engine
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2002 11:48PM
<HTML>Hi Ben,
A counter-shaker and IRS would be great on a modern steam car, but I have set these ideas aside for now after spending mucho hours trying to sort them out. Too much design work for me, and I'd like to get this built some time this century. The old way is simpler and easier, and this is no race car anyway; will probably rarely run over 65 mph (910 rpm). Also, the countershaft adds size, $100s, friction, fabrication work, & weight to the engine. Maybe for the next (sports car) project.
Peter</HTML>
A counter-shaker and IRS would be great on a modern steam car, but I have set these ideas aside for now after spending mucho hours trying to sort them out. Too much design work for me, and I'd like to get this built some time this century. The old way is simpler and easier, and this is no race car anyway; will probably rarely run over 65 mph (910 rpm). Also, the countershaft adds size, $100s, friction, fabrication work, & weight to the engine. Maybe for the next (sports car) project.
Peter</HTML>
Re: red hot Steam Engine
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 13, 2002 12:17AM
<HTML>Hi Ron,
Thanks for the offer, a Jag rear would be fantastic. I know what you mean about things underfoot in the shop, though; have 2 complete VW transaxle/suspensions and a couple other trannies to trip over. If I were to go IRS, I'd probably just drop a "super diff" (extra spider gears) in one of these, or use the stock diff with a light foot on the throttle (the planned engine is only 3.36 x 4, 2 cyl DA, for a light car).
The downside with IC transaxles for steam engines is the extra friction loss, both stepping up and stepping down the drive ratio through redundant gears. Best would be to pull the diff, CVJ's, axles, etc and fit them with a custom housing, with spur ring gear & flanges to direct-drive engine and carframe.
Peter</HTML>
Thanks for the offer, a Jag rear would be fantastic. I know what you mean about things underfoot in the shop, though; have 2 complete VW transaxle/suspensions and a couple other trannies to trip over. If I were to go IRS, I'd probably just drop a "super diff" (extra spider gears) in one of these, or use the stock diff with a light foot on the throttle (the planned engine is only 3.36 x 4, 2 cyl DA, for a light car).
The downside with IC transaxles for steam engines is the extra friction loss, both stepping up and stepping down the drive ratio through redundant gears. Best would be to pull the diff, CVJ's, axles, etc and fit them with a custom housing, with spur ring gear & flanges to direct-drive engine and carframe.
Peter</HTML>
Re engine/axle/unit/performence
Posted by: c benson (IP Logged)
Date: October 13, 2002 08:46PM
<HTML>Hey GREAT i got U guys on track again////News update,I had the old Black beast up to 70 on friday ,,still shakes some but i give er 'a toot to get oil into all the corners,,We both felt good,,,Don Mains a airplane guy [tester a'n certified ] is my witness,,,,,After a incident at dead horse hill I think maybe need a credible witness now an again haha,,[grrrr in disguise] xxxxxClarence Marshall put a Stanley engine into a 41 Packard,,,it's in Clymers,, He used Packard housing etc In fact there was a conversion of this type at the last[?] S' museum auction xxxx The major problem I see w/the shaker countershaft is finding the room for it,,,,But its no more complicated than mounting a generator,,,maybee less,, John ,,heads up,,U really should charge a fee for advertising stuff ,,, this site is absolutely priceless,,an' It also teaches to sppell i thunk' oops,,,anyhow I have 2 spare stanley axles I could be convinced 2 part wth BOTH are converted to a JUCE set up an by now most of [this]world should know my regard for this horrid design!! Now if this thing had a key for that backwards C w a line / through indicating new paragraph,,,,If its on here I bont see it,,,,,These comp' people should get hold of the BLIKENSDERFER typrt'r people in Ct[1895] AAAh i get it they traded that key for erase now labled backspace ,,,too many letters,,,,,,,xxxxFiring up valve,,,Don Randall always called it Prime''XXX 5 letters,,,n these lil . ya cant see anyhow,,,,Cheers OOOps Has anybody got any drive chain 1,25 pitchX5/8wide X3/4 roller dia ,,The new stuff is3/4wide Suggestions appreciated Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Re engine/axle/unit/performence
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: October 14, 2002 01:46AM
<HTML>All this talk of vibration has gotten me shaking. I like a balanced by design engines, not adding balancers as after thoughts. So many balance designs have been tried, the first coming to mind is the early 4 cylinder dodge caravan 2.6L engine. The single balance shaft would fail because the bushing would spin in the block. It was coustly to repair as resleeving was done in a blind hole inside the block. After several years and many repairs someone came out with a kit to block the oil holes with a fake shaft and leave the balancer out. End result being a much cheaper repair and a bit of vibration when going down the road, but thats ok cause they are usually selling it when it gets fixed. Some engines use a shaft to balance the engine being geared to the crankshaft and used as the output shaft. Most diesels and other industrial engines of the 4 cylinder configuration use 2 balance shafts geared directly to the crankshaft and spinning in oppsite directions. many small engines such as the single cylinder ATV engines use a single balance shaft hidden in the case with everything else. The bearings on balance shafts take a huge load and should be replaced when the engine is apart every time.
With the extra load imposed by spinning balance shafts, it would seem easier to start with a design exhibiting a high degree of primary balance. The effort to rotate an unbalanced shaft can be very high and even though the engines balance may be improved with balance shafts, each one is still an unbalanced mass as well as the rest of the engine. If you have any doubt as to the extra effort required, coast down a hill with a bicycle with balanced wheels then try it with even somewhat un balanced wheels and you will notice a lower top speed.
Peter Heid</HTML>
With the extra load imposed by spinning balance shafts, it would seem easier to start with a design exhibiting a high degree of primary balance. The effort to rotate an unbalanced shaft can be very high and even though the engines balance may be improved with balance shafts, each one is still an unbalanced mass as well as the rest of the engine. If you have any doubt as to the extra effort required, coast down a hill with a bicycle with balanced wheels then try it with even somewhat un balanced wheels and you will notice a lower top speed.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: engine/axle/unit/performance
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: October 14, 2002 03:48AM
<HTML>Hi Peter
Black Betty Just has her standard 51 Chev axle with the crown wheel removed and replaced by a spur gear. The axle was fitted with bosses to take the engine frame rods and the engine is mounted on the cover face of the rear axle as the drive shaft side has all the diff bearing and mounts.
This left the engine pointing rearward with the the cylinder heads right behind the rear bumper. A bit much weight in the rear so the whole unit was rotated 180 degrees in a horisontal plane and it is now in the traditional Stanley Doble location.
Yes the hand brake cables are a bit "interesting"
To fix this I only have to remove the engine to get access to the c washers, remove the half shafts, swap the brake assemblies left to right and then reverse the dissasembly.............One day.
Hope this gives you some ideas. It really was done by the builder Athol Jonas on his own in his 70's in a very modest workshop.
If you need pictures I can scan a couple and send them to you.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Black Betty Just has her standard 51 Chev axle with the crown wheel removed and replaced by a spur gear. The axle was fitted with bosses to take the engine frame rods and the engine is mounted on the cover face of the rear axle as the drive shaft side has all the diff bearing and mounts.
This left the engine pointing rearward with the the cylinder heads right behind the rear bumper. A bit much weight in the rear so the whole unit was rotated 180 degrees in a horisontal plane and it is now in the traditional Stanley Doble location.
Yes the hand brake cables are a bit "interesting"
To fix this I only have to remove the engine to get access to the c washers, remove the half shafts, swap the brake assemblies left to right and then reverse the dissasembly.............One day.
Hope this gives you some ideas. It really was done by the builder Athol Jonas on his own in his 70's in a very modest workshop.
If you need pictures I can scan a couple and send them to you.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: Mike Bennett (IP Logged)
Date: October 14, 2002 07:06PM
<HTML>Peter
I ran acrossed a Fischer Cycle some time ago. Supposedly the work of a scientist named Victor Fischer, who had found a "chink" in the armor of the Carnot Cycle. The person who was promoting this (as part of a free electricity scheme) was one Dennis Lee. Do a search for him and you will see the only references to Fischer that I could find. Everthing that the guy was saying sounded like TECNOBABLE to me, but who knows.
regards,
MIke</HTML>
I ran acrossed a Fischer Cycle some time ago. Supposedly the work of a scientist named Victor Fischer, who had found a "chink" in the armor of the Carnot Cycle. The person who was promoting this (as part of a free electricity scheme) was one Dennis Lee. Do a search for him and you will see the only references to Fischer that I could find. Everthing that the guy was saying sounded like TECNOBABLE to me, but who knows.
regards,
MIke</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: October 14, 2002 09:13PM
<HTML>Peter, Mike,
I think you are right, not reality. Sounds like the numerous "investment" schemes.
So where is the editor for the SACA website when we need him. Plastic parts indeed, PVC cylinders.
Tell the guy I always use pre-stressed gutta percha for anything over atmospheric.
Jim</HTML>
I think you are right, not reality. Sounds like the numerous "investment" schemes.
So where is the editor for the SACA website when we need him. Plastic parts indeed, PVC cylinders.
Tell the guy I always use pre-stressed gutta percha for anything over atmospheric.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: Terry Williams (IP Logged)
Date: October 14, 2002 10:46PM
<HTML>Several years ago, I was a consultant to a venture capital group that was looking at just such an engine. An actual engine was built and was running on air. The company was selling investment "pods" for $440,000 each. I looked at the brochure and it looked fishy to me, claims of 800 horsepower with an engine that one man could change by himself in an 18 wheeler truck, etc. I got hold of an engineering analysis that had been done by a firm in Minniapolis. The numbers balanced at a glance, which I thought was rather interesting. The problem was that they were assuming a decrease in entropy across the engine. I called the engineer who's name was on the paper and he started backtracking rapidly, saying that someone else had actually done the work. I pointed out that his name was on the analysis and the implications of that. Apparently he called the company immediately after our conversation and had his name removed from all company paperwork. I had a conference call with and investor and the inventor, who lives in Oregon. He was very slick but full of crap. We didn't invest $440,000 and in fact sent the company a registered letter stating that they would be charged with fraud if they proceded. They are now peddling a ground breaking compound archery bow and some sort of fishing reel.</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: October 15, 2002 02:57AM
<HTML>Oh dear, Mr Dennis Lee's notoritity has reached even New Zealand ccare of www.google.com.
A huckster selling dealerships in perpetuaul motion machines who has given up on the Fisher engine after 10 years and is now selling a electrical generator that makes more power than is put in.
Check out [www.phact.org]
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
A huckster selling dealerships in perpetuaul motion machines who has given up on the Fisher engine after 10 years and is now selling a electrical generator that makes more power than is put in.
Check out [www.phact.org]
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: Re engine/axle/unit/performence
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 15, 2002 03:45AM
<HTML>Hi Peter,
Too much stuff popping up in this string, can't keep track of it all. The beefy mounts & bearings for the countershaft are one problem, lots of stress there and beating the heck out of the bearings. Still, with the right design it would run smoother.
For a good inherently-balanced engine design, check out Jerry Peoples' valveless double-acting Lanchester crank flat-four, or was it a flat-six. It is in his S.P.A.T. paper ("The Steam Powered Automobile of the Twenty-first century"). No shaking there! My only beef with it is my usual pet peeve, the old internal surface/volume ratio, but it does have theoretical advantages which would compensate to some extent. I would really love to see this running, and see how it works out. It would sure be smooth.
One of the things I am looking into to deal with the shake thing is polymer composite materials for moving parts in the cold end of the engine (crankcase). Fiberglass- and carbon-fiber-reinforced epoxy conrods, cranks, eccentrics, & valve gear (all ~1/5 the weight of steel parts) could cut the shake & higher-rpm friction losses by quite a bit. Pistons, piston rods, & crossheads have to be iron & steel, though. Definitely not PVC, though there are some advanced light plastics now (fiber-reinforced polyimides) that are tantalizingly & frustratingly close (500°F) to the temperature resistance needed in the hot end of a decent steam engine. If only the chemists could squeak these materials' continuous operating temperatures up by a mere 100-200°F ...
Peter B</HTML>
Too much stuff popping up in this string, can't keep track of it all. The beefy mounts & bearings for the countershaft are one problem, lots of stress there and beating the heck out of the bearings. Still, with the right design it would run smoother.
For a good inherently-balanced engine design, check out Jerry Peoples' valveless double-acting Lanchester crank flat-four, or was it a flat-six. It is in his S.P.A.T. paper ("The Steam Powered Automobile of the Twenty-first century"). No shaking there! My only beef with it is my usual pet peeve, the old internal surface/volume ratio, but it does have theoretical advantages which would compensate to some extent. I would really love to see this running, and see how it works out. It would sure be smooth.
One of the things I am looking into to deal with the shake thing is polymer composite materials for moving parts in the cold end of the engine (crankcase). Fiberglass- and carbon-fiber-reinforced epoxy conrods, cranks, eccentrics, & valve gear (all ~1/5 the weight of steel parts) could cut the shake & higher-rpm friction losses by quite a bit. Pistons, piston rods, & crossheads have to be iron & steel, though. Definitely not PVC, though there are some advanced light plastics now (fiber-reinforced polyimides) that are tantalizingly & frustratingly close (500°F) to the temperature resistance needed in the hot end of a decent steam engine. If only the chemists could squeak these materials' continuous operating temperatures up by a mere 100-200°F ...
Peter B</HTML>
Re: engine/axle/unit/performance
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 15, 2002 04:22AM
<HTML>Hi Mark,
Thanks; yes, the scans would be interesting and I could drop them on a new graphics-intensive website I am developing if that is ok.
I have read of Stanley & Stanley-like engines being mated to slightly-modified Ford, Chevy, Packard, and Dodge rear axles; very doable. I even took a look at a newer Dana unit-carrier axle (really bulletproof), and got some ideas for fitting a classic-style steam car engine to it. There is also a custom axle maker who will take your plans and cut/weld a rugged new custom steel plate axle housing from scratch for $400. He advertizes in some of the hot rod magazines. I bet he could work in mounts for steam car engine frame rods without batting an eye.
For independent rear suspension, I think a custom diff housing would be needed. Current plan is for a solid axle with aircooled VW innards (now in the shop), in a custom housing made from chromoly- and fiberglass-reinforced epoxy, laid up around the working goodies in a jig/mold. The fabrication would probably drive some folks cuckoo, but I have some tricks up my sleeve. In theory, this should give a featherweight axle with relatively low unsprung weight, possibly lower than many independent suspensions with steel arms/links. IMO, a lot of the bad rap on solid axles comes from dummies installing massive steel truck axles in featherweight hot rods. I once drove a solid-axled '66 Dodge Dart which had better roadholding & less wheel float than an '88 Honda Accord which I drove, with independent suspension.
IRS can always be made with lower unsprung weight, but IMO with proper design solid axles can do the job fine in 99% of driving. For a super-sports machine in the hands of the very few drivers who can safely push them to their limits, IRS is probably a must, except maybe with some wild active suspension design.
Peter</HTML>
Thanks; yes, the scans would be interesting and I could drop them on a new graphics-intensive website I am developing if that is ok.
I have read of Stanley & Stanley-like engines being mated to slightly-modified Ford, Chevy, Packard, and Dodge rear axles; very doable. I even took a look at a newer Dana unit-carrier axle (really bulletproof), and got some ideas for fitting a classic-style steam car engine to it. There is also a custom axle maker who will take your plans and cut/weld a rugged new custom steel plate axle housing from scratch for $400. He advertizes in some of the hot rod magazines. I bet he could work in mounts for steam car engine frame rods without batting an eye.
For independent rear suspension, I think a custom diff housing would be needed. Current plan is for a solid axle with aircooled VW innards (now in the shop), in a custom housing made from chromoly- and fiberglass-reinforced epoxy, laid up around the working goodies in a jig/mold. The fabrication would probably drive some folks cuckoo, but I have some tricks up my sleeve. In theory, this should give a featherweight axle with relatively low unsprung weight, possibly lower than many independent suspensions with steel arms/links. IMO, a lot of the bad rap on solid axles comes from dummies installing massive steel truck axles in featherweight hot rods. I once drove a solid-axled '66 Dodge Dart which had better roadholding & less wheel float than an '88 Honda Accord which I drove, with independent suspension.
IRS can always be made with lower unsprung weight, but IMO with proper design solid axles can do the job fine in 99% of driving. For a super-sports machine in the hands of the very few drivers who can safely push them to their limits, IRS is probably a must, except maybe with some wild active suspension design.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 15, 2002 04:51AM
<HTML>I think that the Dennis Lee related pages were where I saw mention of the Fischer engine, hence the caveats in my first post. As I recall, the friend who asked me about the Fischer, went to a Dennis Lee free-energy revival meeting, asked some skeptical questions about the free energy ideas, and ended up hated & almost kicked out of the room by the assembled suckers. But he did wonder if there might be something to the original Fischer engine idea which he heard about at the meeting. I figured it was worth a try mentioning it here, in case anybody knew something about it. Lots of kooks also sometimes mention workable ideas as part of their sales pitch, and maybe the Fischer engine isn't just a product of Dennis Lee's fertile imagination.
I once did an April Fools Day post to the Lightsteam List about my amazing new idea for a steam car with an electric boiler, with the engine both driving the car and running a generator to heat the boiler. No takers, though; apparently everybody either remembered their thermodynamics or noted the posting date.
Hey, with a big boiler, say a 30" Stanley with electric heat elements in some of the firetubes and a hidden switch, you actually could take prospective investors for a ride, in more ways than one. :)
Peter</HTML>
I once did an April Fools Day post to the Lightsteam List about my amazing new idea for a steam car with an electric boiler, with the engine both driving the car and running a generator to heat the boiler. No takers, though; apparently everybody either remembered their thermodynamics or noted the posting date.
Hey, with a big boiler, say a 30" Stanley with electric heat elements in some of the firetubes and a hidden switch, you actually could take prospective investors for a ride, in more ways than one. :)
Peter</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: Mike Bennett (IP Logged)
Date: October 15, 2002 06:57PM
<HTML>Peter,
Sounds like you are a practical joker. Build a faux control box complete with nuclear battery and over-unity oscillator.
Have Fun,
Mike</HTML>
Sounds like you are a practical joker. Build a faux control box complete with nuclear battery and over-unity oscillator.
Have Fun,
Mike</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 16, 2002 06:53AM
<HTML>Hi Mike,
Well, I'd never actually pull a prank like that, but it would also need a zero-point vortex generator, quantum foam diode, and Maxwellian Demon Nanomatrix, and don't forget the flux capacitor to run the time circuits and program the Brownian Motion Rectifier. :)
Peter</HTML>
Well, I'd never actually pull a prank like that, but it would also need a zero-point vortex generator, quantum foam diode, and Maxwellian Demon Nanomatrix, and don't forget the flux capacitor to run the time circuits and program the Brownian Motion Rectifier. :)
Peter</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: tom ward (IP Logged)
Date: October 16, 2002 07:20AM
<HTML>The Fischer page I found did mention an external heat source but didn't describe it. If he had only pushed the operating temp a bit higher he would have passed the triple critical point of water thereby eliminating all latent heat of evaporation. As the pressure mentioned, over 3000 psi, an expansion ratio of over 200:1 could be achieved. The claim of a self condending expander is the part I find find ludicrius. The piston top would need to go through a 500 F change every stroke sapping much of the heat supplied. Didn't James Watt discover something like that in the 1770's ?</HTML>
Re: Fischer Steam Engine
Posted by: mr.bee (IP Logged)
Date: January 06, 2005 11:41AM
<HTML>you are a goddam retard, u diserve a painful death that involves dildos and gasoline. ps i fingerd ur sister</HTML>
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