1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: Brian Drake (IP Logged)
Date: October 15, 2002 08:49AM
<HTML>I saw this mentioned in the Fischer Steam Engine thread, and I'm wondering where I can find a copy of it. I've clicked around the site and not seen it. Thanks.</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: October 15, 2002 10:25AM
<HTML>Brian,
I believe Jerry has the paper for sale in the SACA website store room.
George</HTML>
I believe Jerry has the paper for sale in the SACA website store room.
George</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: October 15, 2002 11:15AM
<HTML>I was in Danville when Jerry gave that paper at a SACA meet. The engine is a rehash of a "valveless" design that was a failure in the 1880s. It uses solid pistons with ports through them to act as inlet valves for an adjacent cylinder, thus has only one cutoff, cannot reverse, and has enourmous surfaces for steam to condense on. In addition to which, he proposed a very complicated piston linkage in the name of engine balance. He had a wood and plastic mockup on display. I very much doubt any thing more will come of it. Putting you money in Enron would be a better investment!</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 16, 2002 06:35AM
<HTML>In Jerry's engine concept, reversing would be accomplished by a control valve switching inlet steam to a second set of ports. Cutoff control would be by the "blocked port phenomenon", in which pressure pulses in the small, specially-tuned inlet passages used for long-cutoff starting, would block steam flow thru those passages once the engine speed exceeded a certain level. This phenomenon has already been observed in steam engines. Above that rpm, only the short-cutoff ports would admit steam to the cylinders. Thus the engine automatically switches from long cutoff at starting and low rpm, to short cutoff at higher rpm.
Jerry's Lanchester crank mechanism uses two connecting rods per cylinder, each connected to a separate crankshaft. The two crankshafts are geared together and counterrotate. Visualize a cross-section of a horizontally-opposed engine. Between the two opposing cylinders (one to each side), 2 crankshafts are stacked vertically. At the end of each piston rod (it is double acting), one conrod runs to the top crankshaft, and the other to the bottom crankshaft. At any point in the cycle, the 2 conrods are at the same angle to their piston rod, balancing each other out, while the opposed pistons counter-reciprocate, balancing their masses too.
I share David's concern about the large internal surface area of the engine. However, it is inherently balanced, and I would like to see running tests of the occultation/blocked flow valve system. Jerry's very advanced valve concept is not easily understood or designed, but it requires no extra moving parts (except for a single reverse control valve) and is directionally biased and theoretically workable.
I purchased my copy of Jerry's SPAT paper directly from him, when he was advertizing it in the SACA Bulletin. His email address is elsewhere in this phorum, under a discussion thread he started some time back.
Peter</HTML>
Jerry's Lanchester crank mechanism uses two connecting rods per cylinder, each connected to a separate crankshaft. The two crankshafts are geared together and counterrotate. Visualize a cross-section of a horizontally-opposed engine. Between the two opposing cylinders (one to each side), 2 crankshafts are stacked vertically. At the end of each piston rod (it is double acting), one conrod runs to the top crankshaft, and the other to the bottom crankshaft. At any point in the cycle, the 2 conrods are at the same angle to their piston rod, balancing each other out, while the opposed pistons counter-reciprocate, balancing their masses too.
I share David's concern about the large internal surface area of the engine. However, it is inherently balanced, and I would like to see running tests of the occultation/blocked flow valve system. Jerry's very advanced valve concept is not easily understood or designed, but it requires no extra moving parts (except for a single reverse control valve) and is directionally biased and theoretically workable.
I purchased my copy of Jerry's SPAT paper directly from him, when he was advertizing it in the SACA Bulletin. His email address is elsewhere in this phorum, under a discussion thread he started some time back.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: Jerry Peoples (IP Logged)
Date: October 24, 2002 06:39PM
<HTML>Dave Nervaard
From you assessment of the SPAT engine, I have concluded that you have not read the SPAT document. I offer three cases in point:
a. The proposed design does not offer solid pistons.
b. The cutoff is not fixed at one value. The design offers variable cutoff as the transition is made from the start value of cutoff to the run value of cutoff via blocked port flow phenomenon.
c. The justification for the Lanchester crank is not balancing but rather to avoid the application of a crosshead to achieve straight line motion for a double active configuration.
All of the above arguments are presented in the SPAT document. You have done the discussion a disfavor by erroneously characterizing the SPAT design.
Jerry Peoples</HTML>
From you assessment of the SPAT engine, I have concluded that you have not read the SPAT document. I offer three cases in point:
a. The proposed design does not offer solid pistons.
b. The cutoff is not fixed at one value. The design offers variable cutoff as the transition is made from the start value of cutoff to the run value of cutoff via blocked port flow phenomenon.
c. The justification for the Lanchester crank is not balancing but rather to avoid the application of a crosshead to achieve straight line motion for a double active configuration.
All of the above arguments are presented in the SPAT document. You have done the discussion a disfavor by erroneously characterizing the SPAT design.
Jerry Peoples</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 25, 2002 05:34AM
<HTML>Hi Jerry,
I think I started the balance thing here by focusing on it, though I did not mean to suggest that balance was the main reason for the Lanchester configuration. I do think that excellent balance would be a major advantage, along with eliminating the crossheads. I think it's a great design.
How is the SPAT project going? I am very much looking forward to seeing it running!
It may also be of interest here that the SPAT boiler concept develops the Lamont circulation principle to the ultimate in light weight and compactness. Maybe the "T" in SPAT should stand for Twenty-_second_ century. :)
Peter</HTML>
I think I started the balance thing here by focusing on it, though I did not mean to suggest that balance was the main reason for the Lanchester configuration. I do think that excellent balance would be a major advantage, along with eliminating the crossheads. I think it's a great design.
How is the SPAT project going? I am very much looking forward to seeing it running!
It may also be of interest here that the SPAT boiler concept develops the Lamont circulation principle to the ultimate in light weight and compactness. Maybe the "T" in SPAT should stand for Twenty-_second_ century. :)
Peter</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: Jerry Peoples (IP Logged)
Date: October 25, 2002 07:16PM
<HTML>Hi Peter
Thanks for your support and positive comments. I have moved completely beyond the analyses phase of the SPAT design. Engineering drawings are in progress. However, attention to details at the drawing level has revealed that casting and machining will be expensive. Also, assembly is a little tricky. We are now trying to find ways to reduce the manufacturing cost while preserving the SPAT concept.
Performance is equal to Williams. It does embrace high compression operation with two discrete values of auxillary clearance. In combination with the cylinder clearance, six run combinations are available including start purge. Optimum performance extends 90% of the speed range. I do have a new configuration for an infinitely variable auxillary clearance but will not try it on the first prototype.
At first leakage was a problem. However, by studying the works of Shaprio, I have been able to demonstrate that inhibitors and restrictors will have sufficient influence to control leakage well within acceptable limits.
Jerry</HTML>
Thanks for your support and positive comments. I have moved completely beyond the analyses phase of the SPAT design. Engineering drawings are in progress. However, attention to details at the drawing level has revealed that casting and machining will be expensive. Also, assembly is a little tricky. We are now trying to find ways to reduce the manufacturing cost while preserving the SPAT concept.
Performance is equal to Williams. It does embrace high compression operation with two discrete values of auxillary clearance. In combination with the cylinder clearance, six run combinations are available including start purge. Optimum performance extends 90% of the speed range. I do have a new configuration for an infinitely variable auxillary clearance but will not try it on the first prototype.
At first leakage was a problem. However, by studying the works of Shaprio, I have been able to demonstrate that inhibitors and restrictors will have sufficient influence to control leakage well within acceptable limits.
Jerry</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 26, 2002 04:57AM
<HTML>Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the progress report. Glad to hear that the project is moving ahead. Yes, the drawing stage is crucial; I have weeded out (and discovered) all sorts of ideas at that stage, and changes there can be surprising.
I was wondering if the long-cutoff passages, where the blocked-flow phenomenon occurs, are planned to be removeable/replaceable for tuning, or if calculations alone are reliable enough to dimension them for inclusion in cylinder castings? For precision here, I'd use cores made in stereolithographed molds (depending on budget, of course!). Even without need for tuning, separable passages might simplify fabrication. They could just bolt or clamp onto the turned OD of cylinders.
The six operating modes should give great flexibility with minimal throttling. These, to hazard a guess, would be(?):
No auxilary clearance/long cutoff
No aux clearance/short cutoff
Aux clearance 1/long
Aux clearance 1/short
Aux clearance 2/long
Aux clearance 2/short
(not in order of selection while running).
Are you planning poppet valves for the auxiliary clearance volumes?
Timing the compression release/purge while changing modes (mainly starting from a stop) is an interesting challenge! It would be fascinating to watch this run.
I am not familiar with Shapiro's work. Sealing around (and machining) the occultation ports does look tricky, but it should be doable, perhaps with labyrinth-seal principles.
Any developments in the boiler department?
Peter</HTML>
Thanks for the progress report. Glad to hear that the project is moving ahead. Yes, the drawing stage is crucial; I have weeded out (and discovered) all sorts of ideas at that stage, and changes there can be surprising.
I was wondering if the long-cutoff passages, where the blocked-flow phenomenon occurs, are planned to be removeable/replaceable for tuning, or if calculations alone are reliable enough to dimension them for inclusion in cylinder castings? For precision here, I'd use cores made in stereolithographed molds (depending on budget, of course!). Even without need for tuning, separable passages might simplify fabrication. They could just bolt or clamp onto the turned OD of cylinders.
The six operating modes should give great flexibility with minimal throttling. These, to hazard a guess, would be(?):
No auxilary clearance/long cutoff
No aux clearance/short cutoff
Aux clearance 1/long
Aux clearance 1/short
Aux clearance 2/long
Aux clearance 2/short
(not in order of selection while running).
Are you planning poppet valves for the auxiliary clearance volumes?
Timing the compression release/purge while changing modes (mainly starting from a stop) is an interesting challenge! It would be fascinating to watch this run.
I am not familiar with Shapiro's work. Sealing around (and machining) the occultation ports does look tricky, but it should be doable, perhaps with labyrinth-seal principles.
Any developments in the boiler department?
Peter</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: Jerry Peoples (IP Logged)
Date: October 27, 2002 03:09PM
<HTML>Hi Peter
I will try to answer your questions in the following bullet format:
1. I have simulated the dynamics of secondary cutoff as a first order log. The 63% time constant occurs at 500 rpm, At 1000 rpm long cutoff decreases by 86%. When primary cutoff is unmasked, cutoff cannot fall below 7%. All of this must be nullified by experiments.
2. Auxillary clearances are swithed in and out by a manual five postiton stop cock. If VE, V1,& V2 are the engine clearance, auxillary one and auxillary two: the six operation modes are as follws:
Pre-start purge: VE; vent
Start: VE + V1 + V2; 60% cutoff
Run (1): VE + V1 : Transition to 7% cutoff
Run (2) : VE + V2 ; Transitiopn to 7% cutoff
Run (3) : VE ; Transition to 7% cutoff
Run (4) : VE + V1 + V2 ; Transition to 7% cutoff
Run (4) allows the engine to operate with reduced compression pressure. Since this mode operation is not optimized it sacrifices efficiency for power and is intended for hot dog operators. Note that it is identical to the start mode. No switching will automatically put the engine in the run (4) mode. This is why five positions yield six modes. Note also that in the start mode, compression pressure is limited.
3. I still perfer the Archimdian generator configuration but have given up the tube wall structure in favor of a plate-fin structure outward, it looks the same, 8 inches in diameter and about 7 feet long.
4. Ascher Shariro is the author of The Dyanmics and Thermodynamics of Compressible Fluid Flow published in 1953 by the Ronald Press Company. It is the cornerstsone for flow phenonomen.
Jerry</HTML>
I will try to answer your questions in the following bullet format:
1. I have simulated the dynamics of secondary cutoff as a first order log. The 63% time constant occurs at 500 rpm, At 1000 rpm long cutoff decreases by 86%. When primary cutoff is unmasked, cutoff cannot fall below 7%. All of this must be nullified by experiments.
2. Auxillary clearances are swithed in and out by a manual five postiton stop cock. If VE, V1,& V2 are the engine clearance, auxillary one and auxillary two: the six operation modes are as follws:
Pre-start purge: VE; vent
Start: VE + V1 + V2; 60% cutoff
Run (1): VE + V1 : Transition to 7% cutoff
Run (2) : VE + V2 ; Transitiopn to 7% cutoff
Run (3) : VE ; Transition to 7% cutoff
Run (4) : VE + V1 + V2 ; Transition to 7% cutoff
Run (4) allows the engine to operate with reduced compression pressure. Since this mode operation is not optimized it sacrifices efficiency for power and is intended for hot dog operators. Note that it is identical to the start mode. No switching will automatically put the engine in the run (4) mode. This is why five positions yield six modes. Note also that in the start mode, compression pressure is limited.
3. I still perfer the Archimdian generator configuration but have given up the tube wall structure in favor of a plate-fin structure outward, it looks the same, 8 inches in diameter and about 7 feet long.
4. Ascher Shariro is the author of The Dyanmics and Thermodynamics of Compressible Fluid Flow published in 1953 by the Ronald Press Company. It is the cornerstsone for flow phenonomen.
Jerry</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: October 27, 2002 04:40PM
<HTML>Peter,
Jerrys designg does not appear to use the Lamont system but a "spillover" system as used by Besler to cure the oil deposit problem on a pure monotube. In the "spillover" about 20% more water is pumped than can be evaporated so that there is always wetness to the steam. The much higher circulation rates of the Lamont always force very turbulent flow and boundary layer heat transfer problems on the ID of the tubes would not occure(unless the pump failed). The excess water coming out of the plenum on a "spillover" has a very high enthalpy and a feedwater heater or some other cooling device is used so it does not turn to steam at pump inlet pressure. This heat is mostly lost so it is required to keep this excess amount under control as it decreases the overall boiler efficiency. A good system, as Besler made it, for boilers that were more of a steady state nature. Jerry, good to have you back!! By the way Lamont received a patent in 1917 for an automotive boiler that ran the length of the car inside the chassis, its all been done before.
Best, George</HTML>
Jerrys designg does not appear to use the Lamont system but a "spillover" system as used by Besler to cure the oil deposit problem on a pure monotube. In the "spillover" about 20% more water is pumped than can be evaporated so that there is always wetness to the steam. The much higher circulation rates of the Lamont always force very turbulent flow and boundary layer heat transfer problems on the ID of the tubes would not occure(unless the pump failed). The excess water coming out of the plenum on a "spillover" has a very high enthalpy and a feedwater heater or some other cooling device is used so it does not turn to steam at pump inlet pressure. This heat is mostly lost so it is required to keep this excess amount under control as it decreases the overall boiler efficiency. A good system, as Besler made it, for boilers that were more of a steady state nature. Jerry, good to have you back!! By the way Lamont received a patent in 1917 for an automotive boiler that ran the length of the car inside the chassis, its all been done before.
Best, George</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 28, 2002 10:11AM
<HTML>Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the fascinating details. Run (4) sounds analogous to the "Rankine Cam" mode in the later Williams engine; excellent adaptation to road demands (passing & hot dogging). Also, manual mode switching is interesting. I had assumed automatic switching, but this is still easier than shifting gears (no clutch pedal) and should become intuitive to drivers very quickly. It is simpler to develop and could be automated without too much trouble in later versions.
The 5-position stop cock for mode switching sounds very simple mechanically, though I am having trouble visualizing it. I am thinking of one such valve unit per cylinder end -- tapered and ported like a multiport plug cock?
Glad to hear about the plate/fin boiler construction. I have been pricing tubing recently, and the prices/sqft on the very small stuff were disturbing. A couple times I caught myself thinking of your archimedean tube wall (agree, much more elegant) and wondering "how is Jerry going to get his boiler affordable with these tube prices?". The plate/fin type can easily be made affordable & compact with the right fabrication tooling; materials cost is mainly sheetmetal. Are you looking at welding or brazing? I am guessing the former, at least for the higher-temp sections.
I didn't realize that your boiler control was like the Besler spill-over system. For some reason, I thought it was more like the Lamont. I don't remember seeing any mention of a spill-over heat exchanger, but that may be faulty memory. I remember the float valve and (I thought) a dual-function circulation/feed pump. Now I can't find my copy of the SPAT paper. Have to dig that up. My files got mixed up recently during research & paperwork sprees, and they were none too well-organized to begin with.
Thanks for the info on Shapiro; I will keep an eye out for this book. Fluid dynamics and other advanced theory is extremely challenging to me. Never a dull moment.
Peter</HTML>
Thanks for the fascinating details. Run (4) sounds analogous to the "Rankine Cam" mode in the later Williams engine; excellent adaptation to road demands (passing & hot dogging). Also, manual mode switching is interesting. I had assumed automatic switching, but this is still easier than shifting gears (no clutch pedal) and should become intuitive to drivers very quickly. It is simpler to develop and could be automated without too much trouble in later versions.
The 5-position stop cock for mode switching sounds very simple mechanically, though I am having trouble visualizing it. I am thinking of one such valve unit per cylinder end -- tapered and ported like a multiport plug cock?
Glad to hear about the plate/fin boiler construction. I have been pricing tubing recently, and the prices/sqft on the very small stuff were disturbing. A couple times I caught myself thinking of your archimedean tube wall (agree, much more elegant) and wondering "how is Jerry going to get his boiler affordable with these tube prices?". The plate/fin type can easily be made affordable & compact with the right fabrication tooling; materials cost is mainly sheetmetal. Are you looking at welding or brazing? I am guessing the former, at least for the higher-temp sections.
I didn't realize that your boiler control was like the Besler spill-over system. For some reason, I thought it was more like the Lamont. I don't remember seeing any mention of a spill-over heat exchanger, but that may be faulty memory. I remember the float valve and (I thought) a dual-function circulation/feed pump. Now I can't find my copy of the SPAT paper. Have to dig that up. My files got mixed up recently during research & paperwork sprees, and they were none too well-organized to begin with.
Thanks for the info on Shapiro; I will keep an eye out for this book. Fluid dynamics and other advanced theory is extremely challenging to me. Never a dull moment.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: October 28, 2002 10:52AM
<HTML>Hi George,
It has been a while since I have looked at the SPAT paper, and I may have been off base on the nature of the boiler control system. Your mention of the spillover system jogged my memory, and I looked up H.D. Garner's article "Control of the Monotube Boiler" in Vol. 13 #4 (1971) of The Steam Automobile. Oddly, I remembered that this article discussed the spill-over system, but had forgotten its reference to the "La Mont" boiler. Good diagrams of both are given, and all sorts of other control systems are discussed too. Since the spill-over heat exchanger is water-to-water and relatively low flow, it shouldn't be too large, though the extra heat loss from spillover is a downside.
It should be interesting to see how the SPAT boiler deals with varying loads.
Interesting on Lamont's steam car design. I didn't know that he had also considered boilers for steam cars. The main downside with the "long and low" boiler shape/location is increased external surface to volume ratio/heat loss, but lower vehicle center of gravity is a plus. Lots of new ideas have old roots -- if we're lucky, they come back in highly refined and improved forms. Some ideas are just ahead of their time the first time around.
One thing I just noticed is that Roy Ferrier (SACA) used a Lamont boiler some time prior to 1971, according to the above article. Does anybody know more about this? Was it used in a car?
Peter</HTML>
It has been a while since I have looked at the SPAT paper, and I may have been off base on the nature of the boiler control system. Your mention of the spillover system jogged my memory, and I looked up H.D. Garner's article "Control of the Monotube Boiler" in Vol. 13 #4 (1971) of The Steam Automobile. Oddly, I remembered that this article discussed the spill-over system, but had forgotten its reference to the "La Mont" boiler. Good diagrams of both are given, and all sorts of other control systems are discussed too. Since the spill-over heat exchanger is water-to-water and relatively low flow, it shouldn't be too large, though the extra heat loss from spillover is a downside.
It should be interesting to see how the SPAT boiler deals with varying loads.
Interesting on Lamont's steam car design. I didn't know that he had also considered boilers for steam cars. The main downside with the "long and low" boiler shape/location is increased external surface to volume ratio/heat loss, but lower vehicle center of gravity is a plus. Lots of new ideas have old roots -- if we're lucky, they come back in highly refined and improved forms. Some ideas are just ahead of their time the first time around.
One thing I just noticed is that Roy Ferrier (SACA) used a Lamont boiler some time prior to 1971, according to the above article. Does anybody know more about this? Was it used in a car?
Peter</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: October 28, 2002 01:23PM
<HTML>Peter,
Boy, did you bring up old memories!!
No car. Roy made a very nice and professionally finished gas fired power system that had one of his V-4 engines on it. If I recall, it was made for the Southern California Gas Board, or someone like that. It was a totally self contained unit and the engine ran a generator. It was on public display in the organization's headquarters and it was running too.
Now that you bring Roy Ferrier up, I wonder what happened to all his engine patterns and castings and all the stuff he had in his shop?
Roy was a neat guy and always fun and informative to talk to back in the early days of SACA on the West Coast.
Any old SACA members out there that know where all Roy's engines went and what happened to that generator unit?
Jim</HTML>
Boy, did you bring up old memories!!
No car. Roy made a very nice and professionally finished gas fired power system that had one of his V-4 engines on it. If I recall, it was made for the Southern California Gas Board, or someone like that. It was a totally self contained unit and the engine ran a generator. It was on public display in the organization's headquarters and it was running too.
Now that you bring Roy Ferrier up, I wonder what happened to all his engine patterns and castings and all the stuff he had in his shop?
Roy was a neat guy and always fun and informative to talk to back in the early days of SACA on the West Coast.
Any old SACA members out there that know where all Roy's engines went and what happened to that generator unit?
Jim</HTML>
Re: Jerry Peoples S.P.A.T. paper
Posted by: G. B. Gilbert (IP Logged)
Date: October 29, 2002 03:35AM
<HTML>Do you have the patent number for the Lamont automotive boiler?</HTML>
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