1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Dake Engine Co.
Posted by: Arnoud Carp (IP Logged)
Date: January 03, 2003 01:52PM
<HTML>A friend of mine recently bought asmall steam engine built by the Dake Engine Co. from Grand Haven Mich. The nameplate further reads 3 HP and 6oo rpm and serial 40168. from the looks it must be some sort of a rotary engine. it is a flat rectangular shallow box bolted along the edge standing on its edge with a horzontal shaft running across. the main features are a reversing? handle on the top whre the steam inlet is also located an two draincocks on the bottom edges. Does anybody have any furher information on these engines?
Arnoud Carp</HTML>
Arnoud Carp</HTML>
Re: Dake Engine Co.
Posted by: EARL C. LEAVEY (IP Logged)
Date: January 03, 2003 03:03PM
<HTML>lLINKS FOR DAKE ENGINE: www.westmichigantricities.org/history0027.asp THE COMPANY CONTINUES TO BE IN BUSINESS www.dake-div-jsjcorp.com</HTML>
Re: Dake Engine Co. & Square Piston Engines
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2003 10:25AM
<HTML>Arnoud & Earl,
Interesting! Earl, your historical link (thanks) mentions a "square piston engine". Arnoud, your description sounds like this might be "Root's double-reciprocating or square piston engine", an intriguing oddball expander design illustrated on page 102 of "Mechanical Movements", an 1868 book by Henry T. Brown, of uncertain provenance, of which I have a revised/augmented reprint by W.M. Clark of South Orange, New Jersey, published in connection with Clark's "Mechanical Wonderland" exhibit at the "Century Of Progress" International Exposition at Chicago in 1933. Clark built working models of all the machines illustrated in the 1868 book, put them on display, and reprinted the book with a new foreword and a section of photos of his models added. I find the oddest things on the back shelves of old book stores.
There are several other incredibly bizarre 19th century oddball steam engine designs in that book too.
Anyway, this is an interesting engine design. If you take it apart, I think you will find a vertical rectangular piston reciprocating inside of a hollow horizontal rectangular piston. Both pistons should be double-acting, and there should be no piston rods, stuffing boxes, etc.. The crank bearing should be integral with the inner piston, which acts like the "slipper" in some Scotch yoke engines. It is an engine design which I once considered building and testing, but despite its extreme mechanical simplicity & compactness, a real nightmare to work out buildable & workable drawings. This led me to sketch up a round-piston engine with better sealing and similar operating principle but horrid reciprocating weight. The square piston design would have been better. I am not sure how these were valved, but I suspect some kind of occulting valve arrangement as the sides of the square pistons could easily double as D-slide valves.
The Dake engine may be modified from the original 2-cyl DA Roots design, however. Perhaps there is only one piston inside. And it may not be this type of engine after all. However, from your description and the mention of a Dake "square piston" engine, I would guess that this is a reciprocating rather than rotary design. Please update us on what you find inside if you take it apart.
The only use I had previously seen reported for square-piston engines was in marine steering gear, and I have only seen one other published report of such an engine, which as I recall was incomplete and "considerably mysterious" to its owner. A photo of that engine, with a brief caption, appeared in a 1960s issue of The Steam Automobile, which I have somewhere. I vaguely recall figuring out how it worked from careful study of the none-too-clear photo. I could look this up & provide reference if anybody is interested.
Neat find!
Peter</HTML>
Interesting! Earl, your historical link (thanks) mentions a "square piston engine". Arnoud, your description sounds like this might be "Root's double-reciprocating or square piston engine", an intriguing oddball expander design illustrated on page 102 of "Mechanical Movements", an 1868 book by Henry T. Brown, of uncertain provenance, of which I have a revised/augmented reprint by W.M. Clark of South Orange, New Jersey, published in connection with Clark's "Mechanical Wonderland" exhibit at the "Century Of Progress" International Exposition at Chicago in 1933. Clark built working models of all the machines illustrated in the 1868 book, put them on display, and reprinted the book with a new foreword and a section of photos of his models added. I find the oddest things on the back shelves of old book stores.
There are several other incredibly bizarre 19th century oddball steam engine designs in that book too.
Anyway, this is an interesting engine design. If you take it apart, I think you will find a vertical rectangular piston reciprocating inside of a hollow horizontal rectangular piston. Both pistons should be double-acting, and there should be no piston rods, stuffing boxes, etc.. The crank bearing should be integral with the inner piston, which acts like the "slipper" in some Scotch yoke engines. It is an engine design which I once considered building and testing, but despite its extreme mechanical simplicity & compactness, a real nightmare to work out buildable & workable drawings. This led me to sketch up a round-piston engine with better sealing and similar operating principle but horrid reciprocating weight. The square piston design would have been better. I am not sure how these were valved, but I suspect some kind of occulting valve arrangement as the sides of the square pistons could easily double as D-slide valves.
The Dake engine may be modified from the original 2-cyl DA Roots design, however. Perhaps there is only one piston inside. And it may not be this type of engine after all. However, from your description and the mention of a Dake "square piston" engine, I would guess that this is a reciprocating rather than rotary design. Please update us on what you find inside if you take it apart.
The only use I had previously seen reported for square-piston engines was in marine steering gear, and I have only seen one other published report of such an engine, which as I recall was incomplete and "considerably mysterious" to its owner. A photo of that engine, with a brief caption, appeared in a 1960s issue of The Steam Automobile, which I have somewhere. I vaguely recall figuring out how it worked from careful study of the none-too-clear photo. I could look this up & provide reference if anybody is interested.
Neat find!
Peter</HTML>
Re: Dake Engine Co. & Square Piston Engines
Posted by: EARL C. LEAVEY (IP Logged)
Date: January 05, 2003 09:10PM
<HTML>HI! PETER, I WOULD LIKE TO LEARN MORE ON THE DAKE ENGINE, BUT WAS THINKING THAT THE SQUARE PISTON ENGINE MIGHT BE A GOOD DESIGN FOR A WOBBLER LAUNCH ENGINE 3X3 SIZE. NO CASTINGS, FLAT PLATE CONSTRUCTION, MINNIMUM MACHINING, BOLT TOGETHER KIT, PILLOW BLOCK BEARINGS, HEAVY DUTY SHAFT AND FLYWHEEL. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THIS STYLE ENGINE IS NOT PRACTICAL FOR MUCH OVER A 100LB STEAM PRESSURE, BUT WERE USED IN LARGER SIZES IN THE LATE 1800'S FOR STEAMBOATING. I THOUGHT THAT FORTAL ALUMINUM WOULD BE A GOOD CHOICE FOR THE PLATE, STRENGTH OF STEEL AND EASE OF MACHINING. THERE WOULD BE A MARKET FOR A SET OF PLANS FOR THOSE INTERESTED IN STEAMBOATING, BUT I'M NOT CAPABLE OF BLUEPRINTING. BEST REGARDS, EARL NOTE! A SOURCE FOR FORTAL ALUMINUM IS ON A EBAY STORE AUCTIONS.</HTML>
Re: Dake Engine Co. & Square Piston Engines
Posted by: Arnoud Carp (IP Logged)
Date: January 06, 2003 01:36AM
<HTML>Hi Peter thanks for your information I will psaa this on to the owner of the engine. a nice thing about the nameplate is that a miniture drawing if the engine surrounds the capital "D" of the name Dake. I guess the dimensions are some 20 inch wide and 15 inch high and only 3 or 4 inch thick outside the engine is a light flywheel and on top there is a bracket with a probably non original oiler.</HTML>
Re: Dake Engine Co. & Square Piston Engines
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2003 08:59AM
<HTML>Hi Earl,
From what I've read, aluminum is not a good material for the steamy innards of a steam engine. It expands/contracts a lot at steam temps, corrodes, etc.. I considered something similar to what you mention, a minimal-machining version of this engine. At the time, I was thinking cold-rolled steel stock, which as Dave Gingery notes in his lathe book, comes in very close tolerances (I was amazed when miking some pieces I bought recently, within .001" of nominal size!). Best would be cast-iron stock, like the excellent stuff from McMaster-Carr, but I would expect foundry tolerances, and grinding or milling needed.
Yes, interesting idea for an engine project. The valving would have to be worked out. I wonder if they really did use occulted ports in the pistons, or if there was some kind of separate valve system in there?
Also, the pistons should probably be sized to give about the same displacement, for even running. This is a 3D geometry/math project that I didn't get too far into. Then there is sealing. Probably straight strips (steel key stock) with wavy phosphor-bronze wire springs beneath them, and overlapping stepped corner seals, to form segmented rectangular "rings". To minimize machining, these could go under removeable piston crowns. With some tricky detail design work, rolled factory flat edges could do all the bearing work, so nothing has to be milled. Countersunk machine screws or hucks to hold the plates together.
Run it with some lapping compound in there for a while, then disassemble, clean real good, pre-oil/graphite, and reassemble. Not recommended with soft metals! I was assisting in rebuild/replacement of a '65 'Cuda axle the other day. Mechanic, cleaning the stuck diff cover gasket off the pumpkin, sez git me the emery cloth. Owner, an old school mechanic, gives me all kinds of weird face signals, which I finally interpreted -- Uh, okay, can't find any emery cloth, guess we'll just have to scrape. I loaned him my knife. LOL. Owner didn't want emery in his bearings, gears, etc.. Then the guy drops U-joint bearing cap open-end-down in dirt ("ground cloth, what's that?"), & we send him for gasoline, newspaper, & grease, out come the wee rollers, & I get to wash, regrease, & re-position rollers by flashlight (& grease none too sticky, & this is 3AM in a dark Stephen King junkyard in the boonies with wolf-mix junkyard dogs circling us, & the disassembled car is our ride home, & 10 hrs of such screwups, whew). There's the difference between a grease monkey and a mechanic. Yeesh. Anyway ...
The journal in the inner piston could be an eccentric instead of a crank, for more bearing surface. This would probably run too hot for roller bearings, but grease or cylinder oil & prob an oil pump could do the job. Maybe 660 bronze bearing could be pressed in, but at that temperature?
Definitely a design challenge!
Peter
PS: why do they use roller bearings on the ends of U-joint tees? Outer races start to brinnell after a couple hundred miles! Lousy gas cars ...</HTML>
From what I've read, aluminum is not a good material for the steamy innards of a steam engine. It expands/contracts a lot at steam temps, corrodes, etc.. I considered something similar to what you mention, a minimal-machining version of this engine. At the time, I was thinking cold-rolled steel stock, which as Dave Gingery notes in his lathe book, comes in very close tolerances (I was amazed when miking some pieces I bought recently, within .001" of nominal size!). Best would be cast-iron stock, like the excellent stuff from McMaster-Carr, but I would expect foundry tolerances, and grinding or milling needed.
Yes, interesting idea for an engine project. The valving would have to be worked out. I wonder if they really did use occulted ports in the pistons, or if there was some kind of separate valve system in there?
Also, the pistons should probably be sized to give about the same displacement, for even running. This is a 3D geometry/math project that I didn't get too far into. Then there is sealing. Probably straight strips (steel key stock) with wavy phosphor-bronze wire springs beneath them, and overlapping stepped corner seals, to form segmented rectangular "rings". To minimize machining, these could go under removeable piston crowns. With some tricky detail design work, rolled factory flat edges could do all the bearing work, so nothing has to be milled. Countersunk machine screws or hucks to hold the plates together.
Run it with some lapping compound in there for a while, then disassemble, clean real good, pre-oil/graphite, and reassemble. Not recommended with soft metals! I was assisting in rebuild/replacement of a '65 'Cuda axle the other day. Mechanic, cleaning the stuck diff cover gasket off the pumpkin, sez git me the emery cloth. Owner, an old school mechanic, gives me all kinds of weird face signals, which I finally interpreted -- Uh, okay, can't find any emery cloth, guess we'll just have to scrape. I loaned him my knife. LOL. Owner didn't want emery in his bearings, gears, etc.. Then the guy drops U-joint bearing cap open-end-down in dirt ("ground cloth, what's that?"), & we send him for gasoline, newspaper, & grease, out come the wee rollers, & I get to wash, regrease, & re-position rollers by flashlight (& grease none too sticky, & this is 3AM in a dark Stephen King junkyard in the boonies with wolf-mix junkyard dogs circling us, & the disassembled car is our ride home, & 10 hrs of such screwups, whew). There's the difference between a grease monkey and a mechanic. Yeesh. Anyway ...
The journal in the inner piston could be an eccentric instead of a crank, for more bearing surface. This would probably run too hot for roller bearings, but grease or cylinder oil & prob an oil pump could do the job. Maybe 660 bronze bearing could be pressed in, but at that temperature?
Definitely a design challenge!
Peter
PS: why do they use roller bearings on the ends of U-joint tees? Outer races start to brinnell after a couple hundred miles! Lousy gas cars ...</HTML>
Re: Dake Engine Co. & Square Piston Engines
Posted by: EARL C. LEAVEY (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2003 08:07PM
<HTML>HI! PETER, I THOUGHT THAT THE WOBBLER/ OSCILLATOR ENGINE,LOW TEMP,LOW PRESSURE WAS A GOOD STYLE FOR FLAT PLATE, BOLT TOGETHER CONSTRUCTION. A TAIG MILLING MACHINE WITH COMPUTER CONTROL COULD CUT ENGINE PARTS SEMI PRODUCTION. www.taigtool.com WHAT ABOUT SQUARE PISTON RINGS BEING MADE OF BRASS, CORNER MITRED AND SILVER SOLDERED AND FILE FITTED. I KEPT THING ABOUT A STEAMBOAT AND AN A INEXPENSIVE LAUNCH ENGINE. CHECK OUT BECKMANN FOR A GREAT ENGINE SELECTION. www.steamboating.net EARL VAUGHN'S STEAM BIKE, WHAT A NICE JOB HE DID ON THAT OSCILLATOR ENGINE. I KNOW YOUR INVOLVED IN AUTOMOTIVE DEVELOPEMENT AND I WAS WONDERING WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF THE DELLING BOILER? MY COPY OF THE OLD ADVERTISEMENT DOES'T GIVE THAT MUCH DETAIL. COULD THIS TYPE OF WATER TUBE BOILER BE PRACTICAL FOR A STEAM BIKE? THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY, EARL</HTML>
Re: Dake Engine Co. & Square Piston Engines & Delling
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2003 12:22PM
<HTML>Hi Earl,
Oscillator engines are real steam hogs, but they sure are easy to design & build, and great for small vehicles & other applications where fuel economy is not crucial. My first (built) engine design was a 1-cyl SA oscillator, designed as a scaled-up semi-copy of my Mamod steamroller engine. 1/2" bore x ~1.25" stroke. Silver-soldered the yellow brass valve plate onto copper tube cylinder, drilled ports with a 3/8 VSR hand drill, and used leather washers for rings. Lapped the valve faces with toothpaste. Built entirely with simple hand tools. John Mahler reworked a few bits and got it running nicely. The boiler was inadequate, though; just a pot boiler made from like 2" thick-wall copper pipe with caps soldered on. It would only produce enough steam to run the engine with a propane torch as burner.
One oddity of self-valving oscillator engines is that steam is inlet at beginning of stroke, then cutoff/expansion occurs, then more steam is inlet right before the exhaust valve opens. This became apparent when laying out the valve ports. Hence the steam hogging.
Your ideas for a nicely-machined oscillator (& square piston rings) sound a lot better. With saturated steam and low pressure, aluminum might work out OK. Thanks for the links; I'll check them out. Yes, that steam bike is a beauty. Really nice workmanship. Amazing, a bicycle with 3 wheels. How dey do dat, w/o making it a tricycle? :)
The Delling boiler was unusual, and little info is available. The burner was a vaporizing unit with a fine metal screen ("like a miner's lamp") as flameholder, and the flameholder was vertical, firing sideways. Single fuel jet & mixing tube were aimed downward from the top, and there was a pilot light of some kind, at the bottom I think. Burner (claimed backfire-proof) fired sideways into an array of closely-spaced ~1/2" vertical water tubes. The tops of the water tubes were secured into a flattish water-level steam drum, and the bottoms into a flattish water drum. Tubes closest to burner had water & steam bubbles rising into top drum, while those furthest from burner acted as downcomers. Nice natural circulation, with loads of flowpath area. Top drum had perforated separator to screen out entrained water droplets. Feedwater control by water-level-sensing expansion-tube bypass valve, similar to Stanley.
There were some neat tricks in the Delling condensing & plumbing system, too, as I recall. I ordered a Delling booklet from the SACA Storeroom a few years ago, and got a few intriguing xeroxed pages with tech details, piping diagrams, boiler schematics, etc.. I sent them back as they were incomplete, requesting the full booklet, but the booklet I got in return was completely different, just a sales book, and didn't have those diagrams or anywhere near as much info on the Delling powerplant, just some photos and stock market boosterism. The Storeroom guy at the time didn't know where the other pages came from or went to. So I wonder if there is more complete Delling data lurking somewhere in the SACA collection than the rather vague sales brochure which is currently listed for sale.
The Delling is an interesting design, but I haven't been able to locate any info on how well it actually ran or lasted under road conditions. Making those drums might be tricky, and I am not sure how Delling did it. Reportedly he did build a few dozen of these cars, though, and sources report he was still at it as late as 1934-35. The boiler was probably pretty heavy, with its flat squarish drums. Jim Crank once tried to track down a Delling car without success. None of them seem to have survived. A real steam car mystery!
An article in The Steam Automobile recalled a visit to Eric Delling by some steam car fans sometime in the 1950s. I have the article somewhere, & could dig it up. Delling told them that he had complete blueprints and production plans for a new steam car, ready to go, awaiting financing. And there the story ends. Wonder what happened to Delling's blueprints and papers?
Peter</HTML>
Oscillator engines are real steam hogs, but they sure are easy to design & build, and great for small vehicles & other applications where fuel economy is not crucial. My first (built) engine design was a 1-cyl SA oscillator, designed as a scaled-up semi-copy of my Mamod steamroller engine. 1/2" bore x ~1.25" stroke. Silver-soldered the yellow brass valve plate onto copper tube cylinder, drilled ports with a 3/8 VSR hand drill, and used leather washers for rings. Lapped the valve faces with toothpaste. Built entirely with simple hand tools. John Mahler reworked a few bits and got it running nicely. The boiler was inadequate, though; just a pot boiler made from like 2" thick-wall copper pipe with caps soldered on. It would only produce enough steam to run the engine with a propane torch as burner.
One oddity of self-valving oscillator engines is that steam is inlet at beginning of stroke, then cutoff/expansion occurs, then more steam is inlet right before the exhaust valve opens. This became apparent when laying out the valve ports. Hence the steam hogging.
Your ideas for a nicely-machined oscillator (& square piston rings) sound a lot better. With saturated steam and low pressure, aluminum might work out OK. Thanks for the links; I'll check them out. Yes, that steam bike is a beauty. Really nice workmanship. Amazing, a bicycle with 3 wheels. How dey do dat, w/o making it a tricycle? :)
The Delling boiler was unusual, and little info is available. The burner was a vaporizing unit with a fine metal screen ("like a miner's lamp") as flameholder, and the flameholder was vertical, firing sideways. Single fuel jet & mixing tube were aimed downward from the top, and there was a pilot light of some kind, at the bottom I think. Burner (claimed backfire-proof) fired sideways into an array of closely-spaced ~1/2" vertical water tubes. The tops of the water tubes were secured into a flattish water-level steam drum, and the bottoms into a flattish water drum. Tubes closest to burner had water & steam bubbles rising into top drum, while those furthest from burner acted as downcomers. Nice natural circulation, with loads of flowpath area. Top drum had perforated separator to screen out entrained water droplets. Feedwater control by water-level-sensing expansion-tube bypass valve, similar to Stanley.
There were some neat tricks in the Delling condensing & plumbing system, too, as I recall. I ordered a Delling booklet from the SACA Storeroom a few years ago, and got a few intriguing xeroxed pages with tech details, piping diagrams, boiler schematics, etc.. I sent them back as they were incomplete, requesting the full booklet, but the booklet I got in return was completely different, just a sales book, and didn't have those diagrams or anywhere near as much info on the Delling powerplant, just some photos and stock market boosterism. The Storeroom guy at the time didn't know where the other pages came from or went to. So I wonder if there is more complete Delling data lurking somewhere in the SACA collection than the rather vague sales brochure which is currently listed for sale.
The Delling is an interesting design, but I haven't been able to locate any info on how well it actually ran or lasted under road conditions. Making those drums might be tricky, and I am not sure how Delling did it. Reportedly he did build a few dozen of these cars, though, and sources report he was still at it as late as 1934-35. The boiler was probably pretty heavy, with its flat squarish drums. Jim Crank once tried to track down a Delling car without success. None of them seem to have survived. A real steam car mystery!
An article in The Steam Automobile recalled a visit to Eric Delling by some steam car fans sometime in the 1950s. I have the article somewhere, & could dig it up. Delling told them that he had complete blueprints and production plans for a new steam car, ready to go, awaiting financing. And there the story ends. Wonder what happened to Delling's blueprints and papers?
Peter</HTML>
Re: Dake Engine Co. & Square Piston Engines
Posted by: Robert Pace (IP Logged)
Date: December 07, 2004 07:35PM
<HTML>Hello
DAKE made the square steam engine from 1887 till 1987 when they made the last one , it was less then 1% of the sales then .
they were from 3/4 hose power thru 100 hp.</HTML>
DAKE made the square steam engine from 1887 till 1987 when they made the last one , it was less then 1% of the sales then .
they were from 3/4 hose power thru 100 hp.</HTML>
Re: Dake Engine Co. & Square Piston Engines
Posted by: Steve Bratina (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2005 12:20AM
<HTML>I have a Dake engine in my collection. It came off the Charles Dick. This was a sand sucker that instead of being scrapped, was towed up towards Tobermory to be sunk as a home for fish. John Leonard was its captain at one time and he was the one who sold me the engine. He was a good marine and steam man who is unfortunately no longer with us.</HTML>
Re: Dake Engine Co. & Square Piston Engines
Posted by: Devin (IP Logged)
Date: May 16, 2006 04:04AM
<HTML>Hello, I read your article on the Dake Engine Co. & Square Piston Engines and am incredibly interested in the furure of using the square piston, as opposed to circular for a number of reasons. At the end of the article you had said you could provide a picture for any one who is interested, so please im looking for more pictures and it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.
Devin</HTML>
Devin</HTML>
Re: Dake Engine Co. & Square Piston Engines
Posted by: Devin (IP Logged)
Date: May 16, 2006 04:05AM
<HTML>Hello, I read your article on the Dake Engine Co. & Square Piston Engines and am incredibly interested in the furure of using the square piston, as opposed to circular for a number of reasons. At the end of the article you had said you could provide a picture for any one who is interested, so please im looking for more pictures and it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.
Devin</HTML>
Devin</HTML>
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