1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Flash boilers
Posted by: Ron Parola (IP Logged)
Date: February 01, 2002 12:14AM
<HTML>I was cruising an Australian steam web site and the host mentioned a Stanley flash boiler in a car. I asked about it and he said it belongs to a friend of his and it was the original boiler, he also said it was mentioned in a 1920's Dykes( I think thats what he said) motor manual ,any ideas on this one. Thanks Ron P</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: February 01, 2002 11:58AM
<HTML>The Stanley Motor Carriage Co. never used any boiler other than the wire wrapped upright fire tube type.
I have several editions of Dyke's "Automobile Encyclopedia", including the 8th. (1918) and 12th. (1921). They have identical brief descriptions of condensing Stanleys and the Doble-Detroit, neither of which used flash boilers. The 2nd. edition (1912) mentions Whites and Serpollets, which both used monotube boilers, but gives very little data, only three pages to cover all types of steam cars.
The boiler in question cannot be "original". Indeed, the Stanley pumps are not suitable for use with a flash boiler, so major changes to the car are needed to make such a boiler successful.</HTML>
I have several editions of Dyke's "Automobile Encyclopedia", including the 8th. (1918) and 12th. (1921). They have identical brief descriptions of condensing Stanleys and the Doble-Detroit, neither of which used flash boilers. The 2nd. edition (1912) mentions Whites and Serpollets, which both used monotube boilers, but gives very little data, only three pages to cover all types of steam cars.
The boiler in question cannot be "original". Indeed, the Stanley pumps are not suitable for use with a flash boiler, so major changes to the car are needed to make such a boiler successful.</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: February 01, 2002 12:39PM
<HTML>Ron, David,
Correct David, Stanley never used a monotube steam generator, only a fire tube.
Do you suppose this was really a Baker boiler?
With the smokebox off, it does look like one from the top. I had one in my 1918.
Or maybe someone had wound up a coil for a feedwater heater and put it in the smokebox.
Jim</HTML>
Correct David, Stanley never used a monotube steam generator, only a fire tube.
Do you suppose this was really a Baker boiler?
With the smokebox off, it does look like one from the top. I had one in my 1918.
Or maybe someone had wound up a coil for a feedwater heater and put it in the smokebox.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: coburn benson (IP Logged)
Date: February 01, 2002 09:10PM
<HTML>No mention of DATE for this mistery car,,,Could it be early ,,,,and the coils are the early gasoline vaporizer on top of the boiler,,,,There WAS a patent however , assigned TO STANLEY,,,by A L Riker #868012,,,,app/5 Jan 03 for a steam generator ,,,sort of,,,,,similar ,,to a White,,,Dave will tell me it's not even close ,,I know ,,,But to the untrained eye its a copy,,,,As far as I know this was just to protect themseves from White,,,,and was never carried into the experimental arena for testing or other,,,,,,,### THE water tube boiler patent was issued to F O Stanley # 1,342,606 ,,,app18 Jan 1919 and assigned to Unit Rail Car ,,,,CAMBRIDGE ,MASS ,, They went to water tube for this job,,,as the fire tube boiler didnt like what they were doing for fire!!!The Unit Co was Stanleys other side door,,making a steam ""Budliner"" This effort is coverd in a Stanley Museum Bulitan not to long ago......Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: February 02, 2002 02:26AM
<HTML>Ron a little more information about the car and when this was all mentioned would be helpful.
As a long shot it might be either of the following
Recently a Stanley was sold from Australia to Richard Burke in New Zealand with the boiler miss identified as a monotube. This car actually has a genuine Derr watertube plus all the modifications Thomas Derr's company added. (The boiler has a plaque on the casing)
The Prichards had a Stanley with a Pritchard designed monotube fitted.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
As a long shot it might be either of the following
Recently a Stanley was sold from Australia to Richard Burke in New Zealand with the boiler miss identified as a monotube. This car actually has a genuine Derr watertube plus all the modifications Thomas Derr's company added. (The boiler has a plaque on the casing)
The Prichards had a Stanley with a Pritchard designed monotube fitted.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Jeff Theobald (IP Logged)
Date: February 02, 2002 08:33PM
<HTML>Hi all, while you are all thinking about flash boilers, I was given some information that one or two of the last Brooks steamers were fitted with experimental Doble style boilers! has anyone heard about this before.</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: February 03, 2002 03:07PM
<HTML>Jeff,
Nothing in the Doble factory files about this.
Should you find written proof, I sure would like to know about it.
Jim</HTML>
Nothing in the Doble factory files about this.
Should you find written proof, I sure would like to know about it.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: George K. Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: February 03, 2002 06:04PM
<HTML>Ron,
Before this interesting topic keeps expanding would you define "flash"?? Usually it is confined to once through monotube type boilers but others may have a differing opinion. The Baker boiler, having a central drum and natural recirculation would not be a "flash" boiler although it had a tube section where "flashing" may have gone on.
May we all keep our clothes on during this discussion so we are not called flashers ;>) . The Lamont could be considered a "flash" boiler as the Lamont section does almost all of the conversion of water to steam but is not a totally monotube boiler. And Jeff I picked up on your "Doble type" boiler, not Doble produced. A strict monotube "flash" boiler would not work very well in a Stanley as the water pump capacity, especially at lower speeds is pitifully unprepared to provide enough water or quickly enough to the boiler to protect sections of it from overheating. The Lamont, with its central recirculation drum
would work in a Stanley due to its reserve water capacity and forced circulation.
Best, George</HTML>
Before this interesting topic keeps expanding would you define "flash"?? Usually it is confined to once through monotube type boilers but others may have a differing opinion. The Baker boiler, having a central drum and natural recirculation would not be a "flash" boiler although it had a tube section where "flashing" may have gone on.
May we all keep our clothes on during this discussion so we are not called flashers ;>) . The Lamont could be considered a "flash" boiler as the Lamont section does almost all of the conversion of water to steam but is not a totally monotube boiler. And Jeff I picked up on your "Doble type" boiler, not Doble produced. A strict monotube "flash" boiler would not work very well in a Stanley as the water pump capacity, especially at lower speeds is pitifully unprepared to provide enough water or quickly enough to the boiler to protect sections of it from overheating. The Lamont, with its central recirculation drum
would work in a Stanley due to its reserve water capacity and forced circulation.
Best, George</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Jeff Theobald (IP Logged)
Date: February 03, 2002 10:48PM
<HTML>Hi Jim & all,
I have gone through all the papers I have on Brooks, and have found this story which was printed in "The Beacon Herald" Dec 8th 1967 this is the local newspaper for Sratford, Ontario, (where the Brooks steamer were built) it's a full page account on Brooks Steam Motors Ltd towards the end of the story is this snippit... " The cars were noted for their power and quite running, but the type of boiler could not supply enough steam to sustain a steady speed of 55 miles an hour which was a good speed in those days, in veiw of this the company made a couple of new boilers with a coil running through a dome-shaped cover and an atomized spray burning around the coil. by the time the water went through the coil it was steam in a matter of seconds " this is the only time I have seen reference to this and wondered if there was any other info to back it up.
Jeff.</HTML>
I have gone through all the papers I have on Brooks, and have found this story which was printed in "The Beacon Herald" Dec 8th 1967 this is the local newspaper for Sratford, Ontario, (where the Brooks steamer were built) it's a full page account on Brooks Steam Motors Ltd towards the end of the story is this snippit... " The cars were noted for their power and quite running, but the type of boiler could not supply enough steam to sustain a steady speed of 55 miles an hour which was a good speed in those days, in veiw of this the company made a couple of new boilers with a coil running through a dome-shaped cover and an atomized spray burning around the coil. by the time the water went through the coil it was steam in a matter of seconds " this is the only time I have seen reference to this and wondered if there was any other info to back it up.
Jeff.</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: February 04, 2002 02:53PM
<HTML>Jeff,
Sounds like the usual ignorant reporter who doesn't know what he/she is looking at, and also doesn't care one bit. A "sound bite" and on to the next assignment.
I demand a review when they want to write about the Dobles and as they usually won't do that, so no story.
Jim</HTML>
Sounds like the usual ignorant reporter who doesn't know what he/she is looking at, and also doesn't care one bit. A "sound bite" and on to the next assignment.
I demand a review when they want to write about the Dobles and as they usually won't do that, so no story.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Jeff Theobald (IP Logged)
Date: February 04, 2002 08:58PM
<HTML>Hi Jim and all,
There may be some water in the story so to speak, as I have also found in a report that came from the Stratford-Perth Archives, in which a former employee of Brooks Steam Motors a Mr R Cossey who was forman of the valves and automatics department and the paint shop, states that Brooks Steam Motors built two complete bus chassis, ( I only though there was one) one being built up to a complete bus and run up to the second W.W. athough fitted with a diesel engine in the last years, but it also talks about the mono tube boiler fitted to experimental cars!! it goes on to say....
" Two bus boilers were patterned along these lines and 750 pounds pressure could be built from cold in 40 seconds, The safety valve was set at 1,250 pounds pressure as a precautionary measure. One boiler was installed in a 22-passenger bus with an all-aluminum body and blue morocco leather seats".
Having now looked more carefully through the pictures that I have I can see that I have pictures of the two buses which are very different, one being long nosed ( you can see the boiler through the bonnet (hood) louvers), but no other clues to the type, while the other is forward control, and I think a picture of the completed 22 seater.
Maybe there is more info about, I would certainly like to hear about it if anyone has anything about this, Jeff.</HTML>
There may be some water in the story so to speak, as I have also found in a report that came from the Stratford-Perth Archives, in which a former employee of Brooks Steam Motors a Mr R Cossey who was forman of the valves and automatics department and the paint shop, states that Brooks Steam Motors built two complete bus chassis, ( I only though there was one) one being built up to a complete bus and run up to the second W.W. athough fitted with a diesel engine in the last years, but it also talks about the mono tube boiler fitted to experimental cars!! it goes on to say....
" Two bus boilers were patterned along these lines and 750 pounds pressure could be built from cold in 40 seconds, The safety valve was set at 1,250 pounds pressure as a precautionary measure. One boiler was installed in a 22-passenger bus with an all-aluminum body and blue morocco leather seats".
Having now looked more carefully through the pictures that I have I can see that I have pictures of the two buses which are very different, one being long nosed ( you can see the boiler through the bonnet (hood) louvers), but no other clues to the type, while the other is forward control, and I think a picture of the completed 22 seater.
Maybe there is more info about, I would certainly like to hear about it if anyone has anything about this, Jeff.</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Christopher W. Roberts (IP Logged)
Date: February 08, 2002 12:06AM
<HTML> First I think it is important to outline the three "basic types of boilers:
1) Firetube (Stanley) The boiler is a shell with tubes going the complete length of the boiler from the crown sheet to the top tube sheet. Water sourounds the tube and the fire and heat is transfered through the tube thus heating the water and making steam.
2) Water tube (Baker) A central drum with tubes or coils sourounding the central drum. The tubes and central drum are filled with water to about 1/2 way. The fire/heat is applied to the tubes, thus making steam.
3) Monotube (White) Several coils are stacked on top of one another. these tubes are connected to each other in an out of order, ie: coil 1 to coil 6 to coil2 to coil5 to coil3 to coil 4 to superheater. Water is injected at one end and passes through the coils. At one point the water will turn or "flash" into steam.
Most will conclude that a monotube boiler is of a flash type. The monotube boiler is also called by White a "steam generator". Monotube boilers need advanced systems to controll the fire and water going into the system.</HTML>
1) Firetube (Stanley) The boiler is a shell with tubes going the complete length of the boiler from the crown sheet to the top tube sheet. Water sourounds the tube and the fire and heat is transfered through the tube thus heating the water and making steam.
2) Water tube (Baker) A central drum with tubes or coils sourounding the central drum. The tubes and central drum are filled with water to about 1/2 way. The fire/heat is applied to the tubes, thus making steam.
3) Monotube (White) Several coils are stacked on top of one another. these tubes are connected to each other in an out of order, ie: coil 1 to coil 6 to coil2 to coil5 to coil3 to coil 4 to superheater. Water is injected at one end and passes through the coils. At one point the water will turn or "flash" into steam.
Most will conclude that a monotube boiler is of a flash type. The monotube boiler is also called by White a "steam generator". Monotube boilers need advanced systems to controll the fire and water going into the system.</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: February 10, 2002 03:20PM
<HTML>Jeff,
Does this Brooks bus have anything to do with that Curran steam bus that was made in New York and is in Clymer's steam car edition?
I also read that the bus was actually built by Empire, the Cruban burner people, and not actually by Brooks.
I never could quite see if they were one and the same. Clymer never did a thorough job of it.
Alic Clarkson told me about his father's involvement with Brooks; but I never thought about that until lately. Was he the chief engineer at Brooks? Any information about that?
Just curious.
Jim</HTML>
Does this Brooks bus have anything to do with that Curran steam bus that was made in New York and is in Clymer's steam car edition?
I also read that the bus was actually built by Empire, the Cruban burner people, and not actually by Brooks.
I never could quite see if they were one and the same. Clymer never did a thorough job of it.
Alic Clarkson told me about his father's involvement with Brooks; but I never thought about that until lately. Was he the chief engineer at Brooks? Any information about that?
Just curious.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: February 11, 2002 08:22PM
<HTML>I have noticed that some books first make a distinction between forced circulation and natural circulation before they go on to define boilers any further. I have yet to see a hierachal tree showing the the families and members but it would be an interesting list.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Jeff Theobald (IP Logged)
Date: February 11, 2002 09:17PM
<HTML>Hi Jim,
In some of the papers I have they refur to the bus as if there was only one bus built, but I have one picture of a bus chassis outside the doors of the Stratford factory, another of the same chassis being loaded on a Canadian National Railways flat car, the other picture's that I have of the other bus show it standing outside their Factory in Buffalo N.Y. which is where Oland Brooks made off to as things went wrong in Stratford, at one stage he tried to buy the Stratford bus, but the director's returned his cheque and refused to sell it to him, so maybe the bus shown in Buffalo was built for Oland Brooks by another company, certainly Brooks used controls and accessories made by Cruban in his cars, at the moment I cannot find any reference to anyone named Clarkson, I have a booklet which lists a Mr E.H. Delling as Chief Engineer, it's not dated but must be early as Mr W.A. Dover is listed as General Manager, a letter dated May 12th 1927 to the shareholders refer's to the "recent elimination of W.A. Dover and his private secretary" I think he wrote to the local paper warning of what was going on with the finances of the company, there is also reference to the factory in Buffalo in that letter, so I'm still as confused as ever as to what they did or didn't build. regards, Jeff.</HTML>
In some of the papers I have they refur to the bus as if there was only one bus built, but I have one picture of a bus chassis outside the doors of the Stratford factory, another of the same chassis being loaded on a Canadian National Railways flat car, the other picture's that I have of the other bus show it standing outside their Factory in Buffalo N.Y. which is where Oland Brooks made off to as things went wrong in Stratford, at one stage he tried to buy the Stratford bus, but the director's returned his cheque and refused to sell it to him, so maybe the bus shown in Buffalo was built for Oland Brooks by another company, certainly Brooks used controls and accessories made by Cruban in his cars, at the moment I cannot find any reference to anyone named Clarkson, I have a booklet which lists a Mr E.H. Delling as Chief Engineer, it's not dated but must be early as Mr W.A. Dover is listed as General Manager, a letter dated May 12th 1927 to the shareholders refer's to the "recent elimination of W.A. Dover and his private secretary" I think he wrote to the local paper warning of what was going on with the finances of the company, there is also reference to the factory in Buffalo in that letter, so I'm still as confused as ever as to what they did or didn't build. regards, Jeff.</HTML>
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Karl Petersen (IP Logged)
Date: December 28, 2010 04:55AM
I have a correspondent trying to put the Brooks bus information together. He seems to have closely cropped the field and may have some noxious weeds besides.
Besides our late friend Jeff Theobald, the pictures in Scientific American of the Curran chassis with the Cruban ads photos (which do not seem to go together at all), and the Brooks Buffalo brochure, does anyone have photos or data?
If Eric Delling was the consultant at one time, and Crank says Alick Clarkson said his dad was consultant too, we can tell the V engine was in Delling's style and the flat eight was in Clarkson's style. The Cruban/Empire chassis is very different with a 3-cyl compound. I am concerned that the data will be mixed between all these and a muddle is not valuable.
Besides our late friend Jeff Theobald, the pictures in Scientific American of the Curran chassis with the Cruban ads photos (which do not seem to go together at all), and the Brooks Buffalo brochure, does anyone have photos or data?
If Eric Delling was the consultant at one time, and Crank says Alick Clarkson said his dad was consultant too, we can tell the V engine was in Delling's style and the flat eight was in Clarkson's style. The Cruban/Empire chassis is very different with a 3-cyl compound. I am concerned that the data will be mixed between all these and a muddle is not valuable.
Re: Flash boilers
Posted by: Brian McMorran (IP Logged)
Date: December 29, 2010 10:27PM
Hi Karl
I have around 45 Brooks' pictures bought off ebay. I was in correspondance with Jeff about them and he confirmed their origin as he had copies of some of them.I will try and find the emails and scan the pictures if you want.
There seems to be two different bus or commercial vehicle chassis shown. One has a V2 auxiliary engine between the boiler and condensor. Another shows what looks to be a V4. There are a number of pictures of an inline 4 crankcase.
A couple of pictures show a failed Derr boiler under inspection.
On another subject I had Richard O'Rourke contact me about Stumpf. I emailed a reply but have heard nothing back.Can you confirm his email address
Cheers
Brian
I have around 45 Brooks' pictures bought off ebay. I was in correspondance with Jeff about them and he confirmed their origin as he had copies of some of them.I will try and find the emails and scan the pictures if you want.
There seems to be two different bus or commercial vehicle chassis shown. One has a V2 auxiliary engine between the boiler and condensor. Another shows what looks to be a V4. There are a number of pictures of an inline 4 crankcase.
A couple of pictures show a failed Derr boiler under inspection.
On another subject I had Richard O'Rourke contact me about Stumpf. I emailed a reply but have heard nothing back.Can you confirm his email address
Cheers
Brian
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