1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: January 07, 2003 10:54PM
<HTML>I am restarting this topic out front again. In my copy of The Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers - Transactions Volume 56, 1948, there is a paper on the trial of 4 vessels that were converted to electric feed pump from steam turbine driven centrifugal pumps. The paper states that a savings of about 1% was had by the change. This might not seem like much savings and infact it might not be recoverable in the life of the vessel but to start a fresh design it might be well advised to consider electrically driven feed pumps. The paper was written from information gathered in the early 1940's and there have been tremendous strides taken in electric motor efficiency since then. The marine installations were around 10,000 hp running over 600 psi and 800 degrees from which this data was derived. I had been wondering about the use and efficiency of electric drive as stationary plants have long ago adopted the idea and those huge installations realize a massive savings from a 1% gain.
Has anyone else seen comparisons of electric vs steam feed pumps ?
Peter Heid</HTML>
Has anyone else seen comparisons of electric vs steam feed pumps ?
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: January 08, 2003 11:20AM
<HTML>Peter,
There certainly would be a gain if the steam pumps were "donkey" pumps and not main engine driven. Steam donkey pumps are otoriously inefficient and may use 40-50# steam per pump horsepower developed. It would seem it this case that electrically driven pumps would be more efficient if electrical power were developed off the main engine even with the electrical losses.</HTML>
There certainly would be a gain if the steam pumps were "donkey" pumps and not main engine driven. Steam donkey pumps are otoriously inefficient and may use 40-50# steam per pump horsepower developed. It would seem it this case that electrically driven pumps would be more efficient if electrical power were developed off the main engine even with the electrical losses.</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: January 08, 2003 01:26PM
<HTML>Peter,
Of course large power plants use either electric or turbine drive for the feed pumps and all the rest of the parasitic loads, how else would they drive them? They were comparing electric vs steam turbine drive. Electric was certainly more efficient if it was a big plant and had the necessary surplus electric capacity to also drive the feed systems. All the big utility power plants I have been in use electric drive on the new ones and steam turbine on the older power plants. Electric is more reliable is what I was told.
Consider in a 150 hp car system: 8 hp for the feed pump, 1 hp for the vacuum pump, 1-2 hp for the burner air blower, 5-7 hp for the condenser fan, etc. Even with a 48 volt system, you are talking about one BIG electrical system and a heavy one for use in an automobile.
An independent donkey pump, as George said, is inefficient; but what about a two cylinder compound or even triple expansion donkey pump? All done a hundred years ago, nothing new here. And, certainly one GOOD feedwater heater on the donkey pump exhaust, something Dobles really didn't get into using very well on the F cars. Sentinels, Price and Besler used a small compound engine in place of the donkey pump. Better; but still needs heat recovery to boost the efficiency.
All this is certainly food for thought if you stick with a monotube; but the Lamont neatly sidesteps this issue of needing a constant water feed, or a variable rate one. Do a complete and through energy balance chart for the car system with, mechanical drive, electric and independent steam driven.
JC</HTML>
Of course large power plants use either electric or turbine drive for the feed pumps and all the rest of the parasitic loads, how else would they drive them? They were comparing electric vs steam turbine drive. Electric was certainly more efficient if it was a big plant and had the necessary surplus electric capacity to also drive the feed systems. All the big utility power plants I have been in use electric drive on the new ones and steam turbine on the older power plants. Electric is more reliable is what I was told.
Consider in a 150 hp car system: 8 hp for the feed pump, 1 hp for the vacuum pump, 1-2 hp for the burner air blower, 5-7 hp for the condenser fan, etc. Even with a 48 volt system, you are talking about one BIG electrical system and a heavy one for use in an automobile.
An independent donkey pump, as George said, is inefficient; but what about a two cylinder compound or even triple expansion donkey pump? All done a hundred years ago, nothing new here. And, certainly one GOOD feedwater heater on the donkey pump exhaust, something Dobles really didn't get into using very well on the F cars. Sentinels, Price and Besler used a small compound engine in place of the donkey pump. Better; but still needs heat recovery to boost the efficiency.
All this is certainly food for thought if you stick with a monotube; but the Lamont neatly sidesteps this issue of needing a constant water feed, or a variable rate one. Do a complete and through energy balance chart for the car system with, mechanical drive, electric and independent steam driven.
JC</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: January 08, 2003 03:05PM
<HTML>George,
The pumps used on marine vessels must be driven by aux power as the main engine might be off for days in port while much steam driven machinery is used. These vessels of which I am refering are turbine driven and consume less than 8 lb of steam per shp/hr under full load conditions. I anticipate a need for road vehicles to run the boiler at times when the vehicle is not driving and it is much easier to control the feed if it is not ground driven. Mechanical drive might be a consideration but it might need suplementation when the vehicle is on a hard pull at low speeds such as steep hills. The weight would seem prohibitive to use both systems on a road vehicle.
Jim,
The implementation of electrically driven pumps on a vessel requires a new generator set, power panel, controls and wiring; the electrical power is not as freely (no surplus) available as the steam they are already generating at about 88% efficiency but still consumption is less. If a stationary power plant uses electric pumps this leads me to believe that it costs less than steam driven as initial cost is higher for electric. Sure the electric power they have is cheap but their steam is cheaper with no conversion losses. I don't know what costs more initially, heavy wiring or steam piping but it is easier to keep wires from leaking. Yes, it requires a large electrical power system but tiny compaired to electric vehicles and regenerative braking is most efficient as a conversion to electricity. My first Lamont will have a 4 inch diameter drum about a foot long and there is little room for deviation of water level. The superiority of electronic controls will allow other components to be reduced in size. I have the heat balance charts for 1 of the test vessels in the papers, boy was that a lot of work on a complex ship. I would like to just have their losses to work with.
Peter Heid</HTML>
The pumps used on marine vessels must be driven by aux power as the main engine might be off for days in port while much steam driven machinery is used. These vessels of which I am refering are turbine driven and consume less than 8 lb of steam per shp/hr under full load conditions. I anticipate a need for road vehicles to run the boiler at times when the vehicle is not driving and it is much easier to control the feed if it is not ground driven. Mechanical drive might be a consideration but it might need suplementation when the vehicle is on a hard pull at low speeds such as steep hills. The weight would seem prohibitive to use both systems on a road vehicle.
Jim,
The implementation of electrically driven pumps on a vessel requires a new generator set, power panel, controls and wiring; the electrical power is not as freely (no surplus) available as the steam they are already generating at about 88% efficiency but still consumption is less. If a stationary power plant uses electric pumps this leads me to believe that it costs less than steam driven as initial cost is higher for electric. Sure the electric power they have is cheap but their steam is cheaper with no conversion losses. I don't know what costs more initially, heavy wiring or steam piping but it is easier to keep wires from leaking. Yes, it requires a large electrical power system but tiny compaired to electric vehicles and regenerative braking is most efficient as a conversion to electricity. My first Lamont will have a 4 inch diameter drum about a foot long and there is little room for deviation of water level. The superiority of electronic controls will allow other components to be reduced in size. I have the heat balance charts for 1 of the test vessels in the papers, boy was that a lot of work on a complex ship. I would like to just have their losses to work with.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: January 09, 2003 07:22AM
<HTML>Hi Peter,
On a home-shop practical level, I looked into electric feedwater pumps while considering a Scott-Newcomb type steam system (really neat concept, that). Even with relatively modest main engine hp rating, an electric motor for a steam car main feedwater pump needs to be in about the 1-2 hp range (minimum). I could not find any reliable/affordable sources for a good 1-2 hp 12VDC electric motor, and there were several electrical engineering problems which I didn't want to tackle. Comparable 110VAC motors are pricey, esp with a 12VDC-to-110VAC converter, and there are cost/durability problems with that.
A separate steam engine to run the pumps offers advantages, but would be small, and therefore probably difficult to get decent steam efficiency out of. It might cost almost as much in money or fabrication labor as the main drive engine for the car, and (like electric pump) almost certainly would cost more than any reasonable mechanical pump drive system connected to the main engine. I'm not sure if any fuel savings would pay for it over the life of the vehicle, but it looks doubtful.
There is a possibility that one of these ideas would be affordable for a much smaller (eg, steam bike) steam system, but even there the cost/efficiency comparison with main-engine pump drive looks doubtful.
That said, I do like Andy Patterson's donkey-pump concept, in which steam leaving the boiler runs donkey pump, and donkey pump exhaust steam (with low expansion/pressure drop), plus steam bypassing the donkey pump as needed, goes on to run main engine. The pumps can be tiny, and the internal surface/volume ratio is little problem due to the low/nonexistent expansion. The pump could be of free-piston type. Not sure about costs, but maybe okay for a premium/spendy system. Looking forward to seeing Andy's results with that.
Lots of steam power system design options look great in theory or concept, but not so good in the detail design, parts acquisition, or fabrication stages.
Peter</HTML>
On a home-shop practical level, I looked into electric feedwater pumps while considering a Scott-Newcomb type steam system (really neat concept, that). Even with relatively modest main engine hp rating, an electric motor for a steam car main feedwater pump needs to be in about the 1-2 hp range (minimum). I could not find any reliable/affordable sources for a good 1-2 hp 12VDC electric motor, and there were several electrical engineering problems which I didn't want to tackle. Comparable 110VAC motors are pricey, esp with a 12VDC-to-110VAC converter, and there are cost/durability problems with that.
A separate steam engine to run the pumps offers advantages, but would be small, and therefore probably difficult to get decent steam efficiency out of. It might cost almost as much in money or fabrication labor as the main drive engine for the car, and (like electric pump) almost certainly would cost more than any reasonable mechanical pump drive system connected to the main engine. I'm not sure if any fuel savings would pay for it over the life of the vehicle, but it looks doubtful.
There is a possibility that one of these ideas would be affordable for a much smaller (eg, steam bike) steam system, but even there the cost/efficiency comparison with main-engine pump drive looks doubtful.
That said, I do like Andy Patterson's donkey-pump concept, in which steam leaving the boiler runs donkey pump, and donkey pump exhaust steam (with low expansion/pressure drop), plus steam bypassing the donkey pump as needed, goes on to run main engine. The pumps can be tiny, and the internal surface/volume ratio is little problem due to the low/nonexistent expansion. The pump could be of free-piston type. Not sure about costs, but maybe okay for a premium/spendy system. Looking forward to seeing Andy's results with that.
Lots of steam power system design options look great in theory or concept, but not so good in the detail design, parts acquisition, or fabrication stages.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: January 09, 2003 11:02AM
<HTML>On my big boat I use an engine driven feed and vacuum pump for normal running, but I also put together an electric feed pump. I used a 1200-PSI Teel three-piston pump and a permanent magnet DC 1675 RPM sealed continuous duty motor. Its only ½ HP and at 300 PSI I have no problem feeding the boiler very fast. More then fifty gal per hour. I have used this pump to Hydro the Stanley at 1000 PSI. About 750 PSI it starts to slow down, and stalls out at 1100 PSI. At 300 PSI it draws about 16 Amp at 12V
The setup is belt driven with a two-inch pulley on the motor and six on the pump. I bought two of these motors and use one on the 12V oil burner. I think they cost around two hundred and twenty dollars at the time. A one HP would do a 1000PSI car boiler with at least 50 gal per Hr, or say 400 Lb of steam per HR
Rolly
[ourworld.cs.com];
The setup is belt driven with a two-inch pulley on the motor and six on the pump. I bought two of these motors and use one on the 12V oil burner. I think they cost around two hundred and twenty dollars at the time. A one HP would do a 1000PSI car boiler with at least 50 gal per Hr, or say 400 Lb of steam per HR
Rolly
[ourworld.cs.com];
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: January 09, 2003 12:04PM
<HTML>Rolly,
I think your setup is the ideal way to go, there should be no need for the electric pump to provide full pumping capacity. On Rod's Lamont the feedwater pump is driven off the main engine via an electric clutch. When starting the boiler from cold a small .1HP electric motor can also drive this same pump thru a bendix drive and provide enough water to keep the economiser coils happy.
George</HTML>
I think your setup is the ideal way to go, there should be no need for the electric pump to provide full pumping capacity. On Rod's Lamont the feedwater pump is driven off the main engine via an electric clutch. When starting the boiler from cold a small .1HP electric motor can also drive this same pump thru a bendix drive and provide enough water to keep the economiser coils happy.
George</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: January 09, 2003 01:38PM
<HTML>Peter
Some of the steam boaters running around 150 PSI have started using small 12 Volt, 220 PSI Sprayer Pump for their feed water. They seem to work very well. They would work on small vehicles like steam bikes.
Rolly
[www.northerntool.com];
Some of the steam boaters running around 150 PSI have started using small 12 Volt, 220 PSI Sprayer Pump for their feed water. They seem to work very well. They would work on small vehicles like steam bikes.
Rolly
[www.northerntool.com];
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: January 09, 2003 02:10PM
<HTML>Rolly,
Your numbers are very good. My steam race car used a CAT 16gpm pump at 1200 psi and took 16 hp to run at full pressure, about 5,000 lbs/hr.
The new car design is based on an estimated 2500 lbs/hr pump rate. So we are both using the same calculations, and I estimated 7-8 hp to run the pump.
Jim</HTML>
Your numbers are very good. My steam race car used a CAT 16gpm pump at 1200 psi and took 16 hp to run at full pressure, about 5,000 lbs/hr.
The new car design is based on an estimated 2500 lbs/hr pump rate. So we are both using the same calculations, and I estimated 7-8 hp to run the pump.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: chuk williams (IP Logged)
Date: January 09, 2003 02:22PM
<HTML>Greetings All!
I use the Pumptec 12v-500 psi pump on my car and it does
the job very well. It's only on at startup or when the car is moving
slowly in traffic, etc. It's rated at 4 gpm......
Cheers---Chuk</HTML>
I use the Pumptec 12v-500 psi pump on my car and it does
the job very well. It's only on at startup or when the car is moving
slowly in traffic, etc. It's rated at 4 gpm......
Cheers---Chuk</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: January 09, 2003 02:23PM
<HTML>Jim
We have a few in SACA-NE members thinking 200 MPH +, but I’d like to just get to a steady 50 with my Stanley. I’m building a modified Derr boiler now to replace the existing welded steel 23” one that has starter loosing tubes. A lighter forced circulation boiler would weight less and be cheaper to build but I don’t want to change the Stanley two much. The Derr was a good replacement boiler. I have increased the heating surface from 50 Sq feet to around 74 Sq feet with out changing the overall size.
Rolly</HTML>
We have a few in SACA-NE members thinking 200 MPH +, but I’d like to just get to a steady 50 with my Stanley. I’m building a modified Derr boiler now to replace the existing welded steel 23” one that has starter loosing tubes. A lighter forced circulation boiler would weight less and be cheaper to build but I don’t want to change the Stanley two much. The Derr was a good replacement boiler. I have increased the heating surface from 50 Sq feet to around 74 Sq feet with out changing the overall size.
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: January 09, 2003 05:09PM
<HTML>Chuck They list them up to 1500 PSI at 60 Amp 12 volts I have never used Pumptec my self. Just Teel and Hypro.
Rolly
[www.pumptec.com];
Rolly
[www.pumptec.com];
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2003 07:08AM
<HTML>Hi Rolly,
Thanks for the link; electric pumps sound great for a smaller, lower pressure system, esp if steam is needed for some reason with the main engine stopped. Also, there are quite a few small electric pumps for 500-1000 psi that would be fine for running small steam-powered auxiliaries with the main engine not running, or for the main engine when running at low output. For boiler feed with the main engine running at or near full HP, an engine-driven pump seems best, at least in a steam car, and a good idea as in your steamboat.
A 2 hp, 12VDC pump motor would pull about 133 amps at full load if very efficient, probably more. I'd need about 84 gph @ 500-600 psi; don't have the exact hp figure handy now. A modern version of the Scott-Newcomb steam car system, or other system with electric main feedwater pump, is possible, but looks tricky to work out, esp for most home shop guys.
Engine pump drive seems lots cheaper & easier than an electric feedwater pump.
A small electric pump operating at very low pressure would be fine for filling a vented, empty steam car boiler before firing up from cold (in case it hasn't siphoned full for some reason, eg dry storage). I am keeping this in mind as an option for automatic fireup, with a small peristaltic pump as a manual backup. Such pumps are very cheap & easy to source.
Peter</HTML>
Thanks for the link; electric pumps sound great for a smaller, lower pressure system, esp if steam is needed for some reason with the main engine stopped. Also, there are quite a few small electric pumps for 500-1000 psi that would be fine for running small steam-powered auxiliaries with the main engine not running, or for the main engine when running at low output. For boiler feed with the main engine running at or near full HP, an engine-driven pump seems best, at least in a steam car, and a good idea as in your steamboat.
A 2 hp, 12VDC pump motor would pull about 133 amps at full load if very efficient, probably more. I'd need about 84 gph @ 500-600 psi; don't have the exact hp figure handy now. A modern version of the Scott-Newcomb steam car system, or other system with electric main feedwater pump, is possible, but looks tricky to work out, esp for most home shop guys.
Engine pump drive seems lots cheaper & easier than an electric feedwater pump.
A small electric pump operating at very low pressure would be fine for filling a vented, empty steam car boiler before firing up from cold (in case it hasn't siphoned full for some reason, eg dry storage). I am keeping this in mind as an option for automatic fireup, with a small peristaltic pump as a manual backup. Such pumps are very cheap & easy to source.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2003 11:38AM
<HTML>We have one member in SACA-NE who uses the 200-PSI pump on the Stanley fuel system to build up fuel pressure in lieu of hand pumping when firing up. He has a 12V electrical system. I still have the original 6 V system. I have found some permanent magnet DC motors from the surplus catalogs that run fine on 6V but I have not tested them under load yet.
Rolly</HTML>
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2003 02:04PM
<HTML>Peter,
Forget using an electric driven main feedwater pump. Just too many amps, even with a 48 volt system. Also very expensive, not as efficient, and do you want to carry four or five batteries in parallel, just so you can run in traffic when the generator is not charging? Either mechanical drive from the main engine or steam driven via an auxiliary engine or pump.
As a priming pump at no more than 200 psi and one or two gallons per minute, that is one thing and it works well; but not for the main feed.
Add the feed pump electrical load to the blower load and you are going to see 4-0 welding cable in your car, and contactors of industrial strength.
Jim</HTML>
Forget using an electric driven main feedwater pump. Just too many amps, even with a 48 volt system. Also very expensive, not as efficient, and do you want to carry four or five batteries in parallel, just so you can run in traffic when the generator is not charging? Either mechanical drive from the main engine or steam driven via an auxiliary engine or pump.
As a priming pump at no more than 200 psi and one or two gallons per minute, that is one thing and it works well; but not for the main feed.
Add the feed pump electrical load to the blower load and you are going to see 4-0 welding cable in your car, and contactors of industrial strength.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2003 07:51PM
<HTML>Hi
I have an auxilary 3 cylinder water blaster pump in Black Betty driven by a 12 volt motor via a 7 to 1 gearbox for use intermitently when first firing up, momentarily caught at the lights, etc.
I've been told that similar pumps driven by a geared starter motor are used on a few Stanleys (well concealed of course). What IC make/model of geared starter motor would be suitable?
Our car dismantlers here are full of 1980's Japanese vehicles so and sugestions from that type of vehicle would be the cheapest option.
The existing motor hasn't failed but as it was obtained off a P40 Kittyhawk in a scrapyard on Guadalcanal during WW2 it may have reached it's use by date.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
I have an auxilary 3 cylinder water blaster pump in Black Betty driven by a 12 volt motor via a 7 to 1 gearbox for use intermitently when first firing up, momentarily caught at the lights, etc.
I've been told that similar pumps driven by a geared starter motor are used on a few Stanleys (well concealed of course). What IC make/model of geared starter motor would be suitable?
Our car dismantlers here are full of 1980's Japanese vehicles so and sugestions from that type of vehicle would be the cheapest option.
The existing motor hasn't failed but as it was obtained off a P40 Kittyhawk in a scrapyard on Guadalcanal during WW2 it may have reached it's use by date.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2003 08:40PM
<HTML>It sounds as though a ground driven pump would be best for the main feed but an electric feed pump might also be needed for low speed, high torque work and when the vehicle is idle but steam is required. This would seem to apply more on larger applications as I am building a pump for my first project that only needs to supply up to 50 lbs per hour at about 400 psi. In a vehicle this small there seems to be no need for ground driven pumps as the electrical system on my 24 volt design will hardly be taxed and it requires little more wiring, batteries or alternator than what would normally be run with a ground drive pump system. It is also easier to locate the pump anywhere I want (at the bottom of the water tank) when wires feed the power and the rear wheel acts as the crankshaft. With my pump gravity feed I can pump higher temperature feed water than if the feed was piped to the pump. Also, with the pump hooked to the tank, any pump leakage is feed back to the water tank by the leakage pressure and the tank can be the lowest point on the vehicle to lower the center of gravity. The control is far superior and I believe more efficient than ground drive especially with the super low power consumption of mosfet speed controls and permanant magnet motors. The 400 watts of full throttle power consumed by my pump will run on the tiny motorcycle batteries for more than 15 minutes without dipping the battery voltage to low continue down the road. There should never be a time when it needs even half pumping power when the alternator is not charging and for very short durations. At between 3 and 5 mph the alternator will be charging and around 12 mph it should reach it's maximum output.
There is of course a point where the size of the electrical system required grows beyond the size of normal automotive electrical system. When you reach this point it would seem very careful consideration would be a prerequsite to low initial cost and high overall efficiency.
Life is full of trade offs
Peter Heid</HTML>
There is of course a point where the size of the electrical system required grows beyond the size of normal automotive electrical system. When you reach this point it would seem very careful consideration would be a prerequsite to low initial cost and high overall efficiency.
Life is full of trade offs
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2003 09:55AM
<HTML>Hi Rolly,
An electric fuel pump is a good app for a steam car. Some IC fuel injection pumps handle 80-100 psi & up. I ordered the Borg-Warner Fuel Pump catalog a couple years ago, just about every gas car fuel pump ever made is in there, with full specs, quite an educational book. This is very doable.
Personally I prefer mechanical shop-built pumps, just piggyback these onto the engine pump drive. I have finished (still untested) blueprints for practically zero-machining pumps, water, fuel, cyl oil, and a tiny air pump, with std bronze bearings as pump cylinder liners & stuffing box glands, matching precision shaft stock for plungers, etc.. All linked together with epoxy/fiberglass layup, beefy construction, with parts located in precision jigs for layup/molding job. Can't wait to get my disaster area shop cleared/sorted out and get building on them.
The air & oil pumps are tiny, and machined from small metal stock on drill press, inspired by John Wetz's ingenious pump designs. Fuel & water use the other construction, and await rigorous testing before decision on "ingenious" designation. :) Dimensions and ordering parts numbers all worked out. Maybe I'll just dynamite/bulldoze the existing junkshop building off a cliff and start fresh with a new empty steel shed, ye gods what a ball-and-chain mountain of worthless junk & trash to clear out, arrrgh ... :)
Peter</HTML>
An electric fuel pump is a good app for a steam car. Some IC fuel injection pumps handle 80-100 psi & up. I ordered the Borg-Warner Fuel Pump catalog a couple years ago, just about every gas car fuel pump ever made is in there, with full specs, quite an educational book. This is very doable.
Personally I prefer mechanical shop-built pumps, just piggyback these onto the engine pump drive. I have finished (still untested) blueprints for practically zero-machining pumps, water, fuel, cyl oil, and a tiny air pump, with std bronze bearings as pump cylinder liners & stuffing box glands, matching precision shaft stock for plungers, etc.. All linked together with epoxy/fiberglass layup, beefy construction, with parts located in precision jigs for layup/molding job. Can't wait to get my disaster area shop cleared/sorted out and get building on them.
The air & oil pumps are tiny, and machined from small metal stock on drill press, inspired by John Wetz's ingenious pump designs. Fuel & water use the other construction, and await rigorous testing before decision on "ingenious" designation. :) Dimensions and ordering parts numbers all worked out. Maybe I'll just dynamite/bulldoze the existing junkshop building off a cliff and start fresh with a new empty steel shed, ye gods what a ball-and-chain mountain of worthless junk & trash to clear out, arrrgh ... :)
Peter</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2003 10:23AM
<HTML>Hi Jim,
Consider it forgotten! Electric main pumps are nice in concept, nightmare in practice. Maybe for a very small powerplant or low-power auxiliaries. See previous vent/post on shop junk. Whew. Room for a small factory, but can barely walk in there, let alone work. I need to make up/post a National Lampoon/WW2 style propaganda poster: "Messy Shops Sink Ships -- Don't let PACKRATTING happen to YOU!". Add graphics of Uncle Sam pointing finger, mountain of junk impeding vital defense project, and some gloating Bad Guys in the background. :)
I did some calcs on wiring for this a few years back and ended up thinking shrink-wrapped copper rod and oil-bath knife switch relays. Ay carumba. Wonder how many _6V_ batteries Messrs. Scott & Newcomb needed?
Peter</HTML>
Consider it forgotten! Electric main pumps are nice in concept, nightmare in practice. Maybe for a very small powerplant or low-power auxiliaries. See previous vent/post on shop junk. Whew. Room for a small factory, but can barely walk in there, let alone work. I need to make up/post a National Lampoon/WW2 style propaganda poster: "Messy Shops Sink Ships -- Don't let PACKRATTING happen to YOU!". Add graphics of Uncle Sam pointing finger, mountain of junk impeding vital defense project, and some gloating Bad Guys in the background. :)
I did some calcs on wiring for this a few years back and ended up thinking shrink-wrapped copper rod and oil-bath knife switch relays. Ay carumba. Wonder how many _6V_ batteries Messrs. Scott & Newcomb needed?
Peter</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2003 10:56AM
<HTML>Hi Mark,
The bigger the engine displacement, the better its starter would be for this app. Alas, '80s rice burners have pretty small engines, and my experience is mostly with ancient VW engines/starters that are even smaller. Finding an equivalent for a P40 engine starter(?) sounds tricky! Those things must have taken quite a bit of power to turn over. How many amps does it pull? I recently got one of those water blasters, and it has a 6 hp engine; smaller ones are about 3 hp..
Maybe an industrial or truck diesel starter, if you can find one? Or the old motor might be rebuildable if/when it goes out; new brushes, redo commutator, bearings, maybe rewinding if it shorts. Occasionally this stuff shows up on US-DOD surplus sales lists; in the '80s I saw a huge WW2 18cyl radial aircooled fighter plane engine, complete, unused & crated in factory cosmoline, listed on one. Toyed with the idea of putting it in a car, but sanity prevailed. That is, if building a steam car qualifies as "sanity".
Just a few ideas. Best of luck with this!
Peter</HTML>
The bigger the engine displacement, the better its starter would be for this app. Alas, '80s rice burners have pretty small engines, and my experience is mostly with ancient VW engines/starters that are even smaller. Finding an equivalent for a P40 engine starter(?) sounds tricky! Those things must have taken quite a bit of power to turn over. How many amps does it pull? I recently got one of those water blasters, and it has a 6 hp engine; smaller ones are about 3 hp..
Maybe an industrial or truck diesel starter, if you can find one? Or the old motor might be rebuildable if/when it goes out; new brushes, redo commutator, bearings, maybe rewinding if it shorts. Occasionally this stuff shows up on US-DOD surplus sales lists; in the '80s I saw a huge WW2 18cyl radial aircooled fighter plane engine, complete, unused & crated in factory cosmoline, listed on one. Toyed with the idea of putting it in a car, but sanity prevailed. That is, if building a steam car qualifies as "sanity".
Just a few ideas. Best of luck with this!
Peter</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2003 11:34AM
<HTML>Hi Peter
To clarify, the existing motor pulls approximately 15 amps and was suposedly a propeller pitch control motor. By using one of the newer geared starter motors from a Toyota or Nissan 6 I should have enough torque to direct drive the pump, but should is a very big word. The motor wiring will need to be up rated to starter motor cabling of course.
Thanks for your sugestions, I've looked at after market geared V8 starters but I was hoping for something a bit lighter on the pocket.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
To clarify, the existing motor pulls approximately 15 amps and was suposedly a propeller pitch control motor. By using one of the newer geared starter motors from a Toyota or Nissan 6 I should have enough torque to direct drive the pump, but should is a very big word. The motor wiring will need to be up rated to starter motor cabling of course.
Thanks for your sugestions, I've looked at after market geared V8 starters but I was hoping for something a bit lighter on the pocket.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, Scott Newcomb
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2003 12:08PM
<HTML>Dont forget Scott Newcomb was working on this in 1903,,,took him 20 years to get to the state of things shown in Clymers,,,,This can be verified by Pat appl' Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Roland Evans (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2003 12:30PM
<HTML>Peter
Engine driven auxiliary are great as long as the engine is running and you have a lot of reserve in the boiler. But with Mono tube and Lamont type boilers you need auxiliary all the time. This is when you either need a support engine driving auxiliary or all electric auxiliaries. On a prototype car I would prefer all electric auxiliary and a disengagement clutch of some kind. The fuel in the tank still has to do all the work. Lamont and Mono tube boilers can be controlled very nicely with electronics available today.
It all depends on the overall plant design.
Rolly</HTML>
Engine driven auxiliary are great as long as the engine is running and you have a lot of reserve in the boiler. But with Mono tube and Lamont type boilers you need auxiliary all the time. This is when you either need a support engine driving auxiliary or all electric auxiliaries. On a prototype car I would prefer all electric auxiliary and a disengagement clutch of some kind. The fuel in the tank still has to do all the work. Lamont and Mono tube boilers can be controlled very nicely with electronics available today.
It all depends on the overall plant design.
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2003 02:18PM
<HTML>Peter,
Right on!! With a small steam system, an electric pump drive is OK; but for a 100 hp car, totally hopeless.
The geared starter people are asking about, that was also used for the Hypro priming pump in F-30, was from a Chrysler. Burned out after about three tries, because it took 15 minutes to fill the coils. People don't understand that starter motors are extremely short duty, like 10 seconds, then they burn up. F-30's motor was replaced by a proper new DC motor with belt reduction and now it works.
I rat pack with the best of them!
Jim</HTML>
Right on!! With a small steam system, an electric pump drive is OK; but for a 100 hp car, totally hopeless.
The geared starter people are asking about, that was also used for the Hypro priming pump in F-30, was from a Chrysler. Burned out after about three tries, because it took 15 minutes to fill the coils. People don't understand that starter motors are extremely short duty, like 10 seconds, then they burn up. F-30's motor was replaced by a proper new DC motor with belt reduction and now it works.
I rat pack with the best of them!
Jim</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2003 04:29PM
<HTML>Mark,
I wouldn't use any starter motor as they are made for very infrequent use without any motor efficiency in mind, just built for short duration very high torque. A way out in a small system is to get your hands on a hefty 12 volt PM windshiell wiper motor with its reduction gearbox attached, plenty of torque and usually very efficient PM motors. The Surplus Center has them for sate for $25-$30. Designed for high torque output and long life without draining the battery. Certainly not for a main water feed pump but a damn good auxilary to keep things happy.
By the way a Lamont boiler has several gallons of water in its recirculating drum and does not require controls and more sophisticated than a Stanley type water level controller, no high tech needed on the Lamont part of the boiler. The monotube economiser would like a very small drink/dribble when firing up.
Best, George</HTML>
I wouldn't use any starter motor as they are made for very infrequent use without any motor efficiency in mind, just built for short duration very high torque. A way out in a small system is to get your hands on a hefty 12 volt PM windshiell wiper motor with its reduction gearbox attached, plenty of torque and usually very efficient PM motors. The Surplus Center has them for sate for $25-$30. Designed for high torque output and long life without draining the battery. Certainly not for a main water feed pump but a damn good auxilary to keep things happy.
By the way a Lamont boiler has several gallons of water in its recirculating drum and does not require controls and more sophisticated than a Stanley type water level controller, no high tech needed on the Lamont part of the boiler. The monotube economiser would like a very small drink/dribble when firing up.
Best, George</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Dick Vennerbeck (IP Logged)
Date: January 13, 2003 01:47AM
<HTML>I'm not completely up on this thread. Here is something that may work on a continuous mode. [216.17.87.246].
A while ago John sent me an email and reminded me to inclose the url's in < > brackets to meke them "Hot"
Dick</HTML>
A while ago John sent me an email and reminded me to inclose the url's in < > brackets to meke them "Hot"
Dick</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Peter Widgery (IP Logged)
Date: April 18, 2005 10:08AM
<HTML>Chuk,
We are an Engineering Company based in Daventry, Northamptonshire, UK.
We sell large scale engineered models in kit form. Our current project is a full size replica of a 1901 Stanley Steam Car(Spindle Runabout) which we are marketing as a "Likamobile" We already have deposits for 25 Kits and hope to produce 50 or 100 vehicles in total. We are currently looking to source a 12 Volt Motor Driven Pump to supply Boiler Feed Water. Your comments about the Pumptec Pump look very encouraging. Can you please give more details of the pump, model No., motor rating, etc., so that we can investigate further. Can you also please advise where I might contact Pumptec as I am having problems locating them on the Web.
Many Thanks for your assistance,
Best Regards,
Peter Widgery.
for:
ModelWorks International (Sales) Ltd.,
3 Riley Close,
Royal Oak,
Daventry,
Northants.,
NN11 5QT.
UK.
www.modelworks-int.com</HTML>
We are an Engineering Company based in Daventry, Northamptonshire, UK.
We sell large scale engineered models in kit form. Our current project is a full size replica of a 1901 Stanley Steam Car(Spindle Runabout) which we are marketing as a "Likamobile" We already have deposits for 25 Kits and hope to produce 50 or 100 vehicles in total. We are currently looking to source a 12 Volt Motor Driven Pump to supply Boiler Feed Water. Your comments about the Pumptec Pump look very encouraging. Can you please give more details of the pump, model No., motor rating, etc., so that we can investigate further. Can you also please advise where I might contact Pumptec as I am having problems locating them on the Web.
Many Thanks for your assistance,
Best Regards,
Peter Widgery.
for:
ModelWorks International (Sales) Ltd.,
3 Riley Close,
Royal Oak,
Daventry,
Northants.,
NN11 5QT.
UK.
www.modelworks-int.com</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: Peter Widgery (IP Logged)
Date: April 18, 2005 10:08AM
<HTML>Chuk,
We are an Engineering Company based in Daventry, Northamptonshire, UK.
We sell large scale engineered models in kit form. Our current project is a full size replica of a 1901 Stanley Steam Car(Spindle Runabout) which we are marketing as a "Likamobile" We already have deposits for 25 Kits and hope to produce 50 or 100 vehicles in total. We are currently looking to source a 12 Volt Motor Driven Pump to supply Boiler Feed Water. Your comments about the Pumptec Pump look very encouraging. Can you please give more details of the pump, model No., motor rating, etc., so that we can investigate further. Can you also please advise where I might contact Pumptec as I am having problems locating them on the Web.
Many Thanks for your assistance,
Best Regards,
Peter Widgery.
for:
ModelWorks International (Sales) Ltd.,
3 Riley Close,
Royal Oak,
Daventry,
Northants.,
NN11 5QT.
UK.
www.modelworks-int.com</HTML>
We are an Engineering Company based in Daventry, Northamptonshire, UK.
We sell large scale engineered models in kit form. Our current project is a full size replica of a 1901 Stanley Steam Car(Spindle Runabout) which we are marketing as a "Likamobile" We already have deposits for 25 Kits and hope to produce 50 or 100 vehicles in total. We are currently looking to source a 12 Volt Motor Driven Pump to supply Boiler Feed Water. Your comments about the Pumptec Pump look very encouraging. Can you please give more details of the pump, model No., motor rating, etc., so that we can investigate further. Can you also please advise where I might contact Pumptec as I am having problems locating them on the Web.
Many Thanks for your assistance,
Best Regards,
Peter Widgery.
for:
ModelWorks International (Sales) Ltd.,
3 Riley Close,
Royal Oak,
Daventry,
Northants.,
NN11 5QT.
UK.
www.modelworks-int.com</HTML>
Re: Driving pumps, generators, etc
Posted by: GIRISH BHAVE (IP Logged)
Date: April 26, 2006 03:59PM
<HTML>i want to know the comparision between turbine driven & motor driven boiler feed pump?</HTML>
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