1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Gotaverken System
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: January 13, 2003 08:00PM
<HTML>In the 1981,12th edition of MacGibbon's M.o.T. Orals and Marine Engineering Knowledge I ran across apon what is called the "Gotaverken System". It is included in the study of reciprocating engines of improved economy. The engine is a triple expansion that employs a low pressure turbine compressor, driven by the LP exhaust and feeding the IP cylinder. The compressor pressurizes / heats the HP exhaust to improve the IP and LP performance without a reheater in the boiler. Except that lost to the enviroment, all the energy given up by the compressor is put into the steam, there are no electrical conversions, extra shafts or gearing to eat away at the gains. There is a bypass valve for starting and the savings with superheated steam is claimed at 17% over a normal triple expansion engine.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Gotaverken System
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2003 06:19AM
<HTML>Hi Peter,
Gotaverken system? Vell, yumpin' yiminy, dat's good fer you! Vish I had a verken system, ya shure, you betcha. :)
I wonder if the same principle could be applied to a single-expansion engine, with an exhaust turbine adding pressure to the steam entering the valve chest from the throttle? This could be done by recompressing some exhaust steam back into the valve chest, perhaps via a reheat loop in the boiler?
Then again, if an exhaust steam turbine is to be added, it would probably be better to have it run some powerplant auxiliaries, or at least assist in running them.
Katzenjammer Pete</HTML>
Gotaverken system? Vell, yumpin' yiminy, dat's good fer you! Vish I had a verken system, ya shure, you betcha. :)
I wonder if the same principle could be applied to a single-expansion engine, with an exhaust turbine adding pressure to the steam entering the valve chest from the throttle? This could be done by recompressing some exhaust steam back into the valve chest, perhaps via a reheat loop in the boiler?
Then again, if an exhaust steam turbine is to be added, it would probably be better to have it run some powerplant auxiliaries, or at least assist in running them.
Katzenjammer Pete</HTML>
Re: Gotaverken System
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2003 11:03AM
<HTML>This was a fairly widely used system. It could be added to an existing "Stumping three legger", did not have to be disconnected when reversing and the turbine was well matched to the turbocompressor.
An alternative scheme was the Baurer-Wach which used an exhaust tubine geared down through an hydraulic clutch to the propeller shaft. During manuevering, the turbine was bypassed and the oil was drained out of the clutch so it could free wheel. The main reason for using the hydraulic clutch was to isolate the less than smooth engine torque from the high speed gearing of the turbine. Efficiency improvements of 18-20 % were claimed.</HTML>
An alternative scheme was the Baurer-Wach which used an exhaust tubine geared down through an hydraulic clutch to the propeller shaft. During manuevering, the turbine was bypassed and the oil was drained out of the clutch so it could free wheel. The main reason for using the hydraulic clutch was to isolate the less than smooth engine torque from the high speed gearing of the turbine. Efficiency improvements of 18-20 % were claimed.</HTML>
Re: Gotaverken System
Posted by: Ted Pritchard (IP Logged)
Date: January 16, 2003 03:32AM
<HTML>From memory, the triple expansion steam engine with turbine driving through fluid coupling system was used on a number of "Yarra" class Australian coastal freighters run post WW2 for BHP.
Another reason for disconnecting during manoeuvring [Aussie spelling!] was that the steam engine can change from forward running to reverse much more rapidly than with a turbine engaged. I was on a Sydney steam ferry about 35 years ago - 3000 tons, 3000 HP. Triple expansion but no turbine. It headed for the Manly wharf in Sydney harbour at around 17 knots. I seemed that at the last moment - I was in the engine room - the engineer shoved the engine into reverse and used reverse propellor thrust to knock the speed off so she came alongside the wharf and stopped. Great "driving."
I could not help imagining that if he did not get the engine running backwards at the right time, the 3000 tons of ship might have gone up the beach amongst the houses!! Personally give me two high pressure cylinders to make things less worrying when you want a definite reverse!
Best Wishes, Ted Pritchard.</HTML>
Another reason for disconnecting during manoeuvring [Aussie spelling!] was that the steam engine can change from forward running to reverse much more rapidly than with a turbine engaged. I was on a Sydney steam ferry about 35 years ago - 3000 tons, 3000 HP. Triple expansion but no turbine. It headed for the Manly wharf in Sydney harbour at around 17 knots. I seemed that at the last moment - I was in the engine room - the engineer shoved the engine into reverse and used reverse propellor thrust to knock the speed off so she came alongside the wharf and stopped. Great "driving."
I could not help imagining that if he did not get the engine running backwards at the right time, the 3000 tons of ship might have gone up the beach amongst the houses!! Personally give me two high pressure cylinders to make things less worrying when you want a definite reverse!
Best Wishes, Ted Pritchard.</HTML>
Re: Gotaverken System
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: January 16, 2003 08:24AM
<HTML>I wonder if one of these systems could be applied to a steam car, for improved fuel mileage. Improvements in the 17-20% range could probably pay for the system, if they could be achieved with an automobile-sized powerplant.
Alas, efficient steam turbines seem to exceed the design/fabrication capabilities (&/or budgets) of most home-shop guys and independent steam developers. But if steam cars are successfully commercialized in the future, this might become a possibility.
Peter</HTML>
Alas, efficient steam turbines seem to exceed the design/fabrication capabilities (&/or budgets) of most home-shop guys and independent steam developers. But if steam cars are successfully commercialized in the future, this might become a possibility.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Gotaverken System
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: January 16, 2003 12:31PM
<HTML>Remember that steam turbines are very inefficient in small sizes. In the typical Gotaverken installation one is talking about a thousand horsepower turbine, running at full power most of the time. In a car one would have to deal with trying to make a fifty horsepower turbine running at ten percent or less power most of the time. My guess is the resulting system would be LESS efficient than the straight engine.</HTML>
Re: Gotaverken System
Posted by: Tom Ward (IP Logged)
Date: January 21, 2003 02:19PM
<HTML>It appears to be nothing more complex than a turbocharger. As simple as a visit to a junkyard for the experimenter.</HTML>
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