1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: April 10, 2003 08:41PM
<HTML>Steamers,
Returned last week from the 100th anniversary of the first automobile race in the USA at Ormond Beach, a great bunch of old cars and 5 Stanleys took part in the festivities. I have several pictures to post and possibly comments on the many original cars at this occassion could be added. The three Stanley Vanderbilts did themselves proud and were probably the most spectacular cars at this event. I believe the owner of Barney Oldfied's PEERLESS GREEN DRAGON challanged a Vanderbilt Stanley to a race and got his ass whooped in the process. A great collection of old cars in running/racing form.
George</HTML>
Returned last week from the 100th anniversary of the first automobile race in the USA at Ormond Beach, a great bunch of old cars and 5 Stanleys took part in the festivities. I have several pictures to post and possibly comments on the many original cars at this occassion could be added. The three Stanley Vanderbilts did themselves proud and were probably the most spectacular cars at this event. I believe the owner of Barney Oldfied's PEERLESS GREEN DRAGON challanged a Vanderbilt Stanley to a race and got his ass whooped in the process. A great collection of old cars in running/racing form.
George</HTML>
<b>Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL</b>
Posted by: JW (IP Logged)
Date: April 10, 2003 10:05PM
<HTML>That sounds like a great trip George!
Send in the photos, and we will post'em.
JW</HTML>
Send in the photos, and we will post'em.
JW</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: April 11, 2003 03:16PM
<HTML>JW,
Will do so and thanks for getting the site back up. Some very rare cars at Ormond Beach on26-28 March 2003. Some very rare and amazing cars. It was interesting to see the clouds of steam hang on the beach(it was high humidity) when the steamers went by. Please remind this old mind as to what address to send the pictures to.
George</HTML>
Will do so and thanks for getting the site back up. Some very rare cars at Ormond Beach on26-28 March 2003. Some very rare and amazing cars. It was interesting to see the clouds of steam hang on the beach(it was high humidity) when the steamers went by. Please remind this old mind as to what address to send the pictures to.
George</HTML>
<b>Re: Send photos here</b>
Posted by: JW (IP Logged)
Date: April 11, 2003 05:36PM
<HTML>I bet it was wonderful to be among all those veterans!!!
Thanks for being there, and sharing the news.
Send prints here:
John Woodson
PO Box 442
Alamo, Ca. 94507
send digital here:
jw@stanleysteamers.com
JW</HTML>
Thanks for being there, and sharing the news.
Send prints here:
John Woodson
PO Box 442
Alamo, Ca. 94507
send digital here:
jw@stanleysteamers.com
JW</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: Bill Barnes (IP Logged)
Date: April 13, 2003 11:06PM
<HTML>George,
I'd like to borrow the negatives of the pictures that you took in Ormond Beach.
If you took digital images, please send me a copy of the disk.
Were you there for the last race of the day? What did you think?
Bill Barnes</HTML>
I'd like to borrow the negatives of the pictures that you took in Ormond Beach.
If you took digital images, please send me a copy of the disk.
Were you there for the last race of the day? What did you think?
Bill Barnes</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: April 14, 2003 10:12AM
<HTML>Bill,
My shots are digital, I will send you e-mail copies. Richard Dickey and I left at what was supposed to be the end---at about 2PM, but there were still cars going back and forth. Did you have an exciting last race, have a real go at it with another car? We all want to know.
George</HTML>
My shots are digital, I will send you e-mail copies. Richard Dickey and I left at what was supposed to be the end---at about 2PM, but there were still cars going back and forth. Did you have an exciting last race, have a real go at it with another car? We all want to know.
George</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: Bill Barnes (IP Logged)
Date: April 15, 2003 12:01AM
<HTML>Hello George,
The race that you missed was the best one of the day! It was the last one on the beach that day--my Stanley against the 1921 Mercedes. I had the fastest time of the day and finished first against the Mercedes.
Unfortunately, the tide came in and we had to leave the beach.
I'm glad I had the opportunity to participate. It was a great historic event.
Hope to see you in June at the SACA Northeast meet. Looking forward to the pictures.
Bill Barnes</HTML>
The race that you missed was the best one of the day! It was the last one on the beach that day--my Stanley against the 1921 Mercedes. I had the fastest time of the day and finished first against the Mercedes.
Unfortunately, the tide came in and we had to leave the beach.
I'm glad I had the opportunity to participate. It was a great historic event.
Hope to see you in June at the SACA Northeast meet. Looking forward to the pictures.
Bill Barnes</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: April 15, 2003 10:13AM
<HTML> John Woodson has just posted several pictures of the "Cars at Ormond 2003" on the main website. Possibly some of you may have information on the big straight eight and the white car(not white steamer). Thanks JW
George</HTML>
George</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: jim reed (IP Logged)
Date: April 26, 2003 11:54PM
<HTML>I was also there. A friend had his chain drive Mercedes there with an 18.5 liter WW I Fokker aircraft engine in it. It ran for speed records back in the 20's at Fanoe. The Stanleys were definitely the class act of the whole affair. Especially F.O. Stanleys great great grandaughter driving one of the Vanderbilt Cup cars. The other neat car was the Wisconsin Special with a 6 cyl Wisconsin aircraft engine in it. It was the first car to go 180 mph. It was in original unrestored condition. I also have a bunch of photos. Regards, Jim Reed</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: April 27, 2003 11:31AM
<HTML>Jim,
Thanks for the input, where you there until the very last race? We must have left just before Bill Barnes in his red Vanderbilt was challenged by that big 18.5 liter Mercedes, last race of the day. The Stanley museum has a good shot of it in its Quarterly, appears Bill Barnes won handily!! Hope some of your pictures are better than mine during the trials. My digital camera has no optical view finder and I couldn't see a thing on the digital screen due to thw brightness of the sun---many of my race pictures came out small and blurred. Although it was not a time trial or race it was great to see so many great cars and the Stanleys do so well.
George</HTML>
Thanks for the input, where you there until the very last race? We must have left just before Bill Barnes in his red Vanderbilt was challenged by that big 18.5 liter Mercedes, last race of the day. The Stanley museum has a good shot of it in its Quarterly, appears Bill Barnes won handily!! Hope some of your pictures are better than mine during the trials. My digital camera has no optical view finder and I couldn't see a thing on the digital screen due to thw brightness of the sun---many of my race pictures came out small and blurred. Although it was not a time trial or race it was great to see so many great cars and the Stanleys do so well.
George</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: jim reed (IP Logged)
Date: April 27, 2003 08:57PM
<HTML>One big white car was the 180 mph Wisconsin Special. The other was a recreation of the Bob Burman 1911 record car. The Packard Grey Ghost was there. Is that the straight eight cae? Also the Reno to LA Franklin was there. Completely original. I think that was 1912. It looked like something out of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. My friend who was involved in the overhaul of the 18.5 liter Mercedes said the restoration was a real bear. The car was bought out of a museum and had suffered greately from decades of neglect. One funny point was that in search for material to use as cylinder base gaskets they found that toilet tank gaskets worked just fine. I inquired as to the car top speed of the car. Said he didn't know but that he a driven it out to the local airport to do some testing. Upon arrival the guy following him asked why he was going so fast. He replied that the engine was only turning 750 rpm in top. How fast was I going? He replied 80 mph!
My friend said it felt like he was walking. Ah yes! Cars built when men were men and the women knew it. Regards, Jim</HTML>
My friend said it felt like he was walking. Ah yes! Cars built when men were men and the women knew it. Regards, Jim</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: Mark Dill (IP Logged)
Date: April 27, 2003 11:18PM
<HTML>I'm writing a novel about autoracing in the first decade of the 20th century. It's a story rooted in historical events, and is certainly not technical. Frequently, steam cars are in the backdrop to the events and interactions of the characters. I don't know a darn thing about them, nor have I ever even seen one operate. I have a few basic questions.
1) Did they make a lot of noise, or were they relatively quite?
2) Did they cast off much smoke?
3) Was most of the "smoke" actually condensation escaping from the boiler?
4) If you were driving them, or near them, would you feel much heat?
5) Would you feel much humidity?
6) Does anyone know anything about a competition driver by the name of Jay Webb? I believe he was injured in a bad accident in a White steamer in 1904 or 1905. A history professor at the University of Toledo indicated to me that Webb was severely burned when the boiler was peirced in the accident and Webb was scalded. Can anyone corroborate or provide details?
7) Were there many scalding injuries, and just how severe would such injuries likely be?
8) Does anyone know anything about Windsor T. White?
As you can see, I need a mentor. Someone to take me to school! Any help out there?</HTML>
1) Did they make a lot of noise, or were they relatively quite?
2) Did they cast off much smoke?
3) Was most of the "smoke" actually condensation escaping from the boiler?
4) If you were driving them, or near them, would you feel much heat?
5) Would you feel much humidity?
6) Does anyone know anything about a competition driver by the name of Jay Webb? I believe he was injured in a bad accident in a White steamer in 1904 or 1905. A history professor at the University of Toledo indicated to me that Webb was severely burned when the boiler was peirced in the accident and Webb was scalded. Can anyone corroborate or provide details?
7) Were there many scalding injuries, and just how severe would such injuries likely be?
8) Does anyone know anything about Windsor T. White?
As you can see, I need a mentor. Someone to take me to school! Any help out there?</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: bill Barnes (IP Logged)
Date: April 27, 2003 11:58PM
<HTML>Hello Jim,
I'd like to see your pictures. Please mail to billb5467@yahoo.com.
Thanks,
Bill Barnes</HTML>
I'd like to see your pictures. Please mail to billb5467@yahoo.com.
Thanks,
Bill Barnes</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: bill Barnes (IP Logged)
Date: April 27, 2003 11:59PM
<HTML>Hello Geoge,
Please mail the pictures to billb5467@yahoo.com.
Thanks,
Bill Barnes</HTML>
Please mail the pictures to billb5467@yahoo.com.
Thanks,
Bill Barnes</HTML>
Re: racing trivia
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: April 28, 2003 01:07AM
<HTML>Hi Mark,,,,Forget the novel,,,,,The real accounts are at least as good [my opinion ya know]] Where are you,,,,,To find a good library w/ auto mags of the period would be a good start,,,,,,,Buying them is a uphill battle these days,,,,,,there's lots of details that have never been printed in the newer books,,,,, Lautenslauger [1908----] played piano,tho he had lost his ? thumb ,,,, 'an the Italian drivers made the rest a merry party,,,,nite before VC Race 1908 .... Did anyone know it started to rain on lap 2 and they pulled a pit stop an changed all #16 car tires,,,,,only to find the mud tires didnt work,,,,so changed em again,,,,,no mention in the newer accounts,,,,,F E Stanley planned to go[I dont know if he made it] He was assigned a box seat,,,XXXXXX Re racing steamers,,,There is little sound til the car moves,,in my case,25'' to the first sound,,,,,,90 deg= 25'' therefore,,foreward travel 100''= 4 puts /[or poofs if U wish],,,,,,The fellow withn the camera will wait for me to rev my engine,,,,I wait for the flag,,,,flag goes down,,,I open throttle,,,,put, put, put, put,put pyt put, put, an I have moved 200'' the fellow has his camera pointed where I WAS,,,,XXXX Steam emmitted is not leakage,,its exhaust,,, some drivers will blow steam through the engine to warm the cylinders etc,, The sound of the exhaust is as varied ,as in gas engines,,,,I find the steamers similar re hot--cold as a gas car of same period,,good blanket if U plan to return after dark ,,,AND PLEASE be sure to have a full gas bottle for the lamps,,, Dont also forget most of these cars were driven over the road to the race,, One of the early classes was a 1,000 Kg class,,= 2204 lbs,,,,1909 I think was the beginning of small class,,,some of these cars were over 1000 cu ins and under 2204 lbs,,,AND the weigh ins are worth the read,,,,Some were so close that the mechanic washed the dirt out of the tires, an off the body,,,I would also like to find someone who has a list of what the rules were for each year// race,,There is lots to look for,,,,Baldwin had 2 different Stanleys at St Louis race in Nov 08,,,probably shipped these,,,,its a bit late in the season,,,, Was a 3day meet does anyone know of photos,,,,Re burns,,,not usually steam,,,but touching a hot piece of tubing across the back of your hand while under the hood,,,been there done that too,,,Cheers for now Ben</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: April 28, 2003 05:43PM
<HTML>Bill,
Originals have been sent, have a few more of lesser quality.
George</HTML>
Originals have been sent, have a few more of lesser quality.
George</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: chuk williams (IP Logged)
Date: April 30, 2003 07:43PM
<HTML>For those of us who didn't know--check out [www.birthplaceofspeed2003.com] they have quite
a few photos.......</HTML>
a few photos.......</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: jim reed (IP Logged)
Date: April 30, 2003 10:07PM
<HTML>Mark: I have recently finished a history of the World's Land Speed Record: The first 100 years. It is 93K words long and as such is quite detailed in reference to both the technical and the human side of the equation regarding those involved. The purpose of the book was to recognize in one volume all those involved in one of the most amazing stories of the last 100 years.
I am currently seeking another publisher after my original publisher and I went our seperate ways since the final draft was twice the contracted amount of words. I refused to shorten the book. He just felt he could not afford to publish such a tome and make a profit. Plus I uncoverd new info here-to-fore ignored regarding where and by whom the first LSR event was organized and record set. I will simply say it was in America and not in France and by a steamer and not an electric.
I have thought about writing a novel based upon my research but as I'm really not imaginative enough to be a fiction writer I have passed on the idea. I think you idea is great. After writing my book I have often wondered how such an amazing story has not been done as a novel and as a movie. Each one of the eras of the LSR alone would make a fantastic book. I have 37 years experience in professional motor racing. If I can be of any help you can reach me at reedspeed1@aol.com. Regards, Jim</HTML>
I am currently seeking another publisher after my original publisher and I went our seperate ways since the final draft was twice the contracted amount of words. I refused to shorten the book. He just felt he could not afford to publish such a tome and make a profit. Plus I uncoverd new info here-to-fore ignored regarding where and by whom the first LSR event was organized and record set. I will simply say it was in America and not in France and by a steamer and not an electric.
I have thought about writing a novel based upon my research but as I'm really not imaginative enough to be a fiction writer I have passed on the idea. I think you idea is great. After writing my book I have often wondered how such an amazing story has not been done as a novel and as a movie. Each one of the eras of the LSR alone would make a fantastic book. I have 37 years experience in professional motor racing. If I can be of any help you can reach me at reedspeed1@aol.com. Regards, Jim</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: jim reed (IP Logged)
Date: April 30, 2003 10:10PM
<HTML>Bill: I still have a role of film in my camera. As soon as it is done I will get all the photos off to you. Regards, Jim Reed</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: May 01, 2003 01:29PM
<HTML>Jim,
I am so glad that another one of us was at Ormond and you friends with the owner of the big Mercedes(that was beaten by Bill Barnes's Vanderbilt).
One of the most incredible and also most forgotten feat was that of the Stanley Racer in 1906. Everyone talks about the world speed record set by this car but the forgotten run(s) was the mind boggling performance it accomplished in the "one mile in competition", known as the Dewars Cup race. In this race the cars would do an all out acceleration run of one mile with a rolling start in competition. The Stanley was in the first and last race, did I believe four all out acceleration runs that day in competition. The mind boggling part of it was it did this race in only 2+ seconds more than its record setting flying mile. This rolling start could have been at 30-40mph and then all out! I have crunched thousands of numbers on this one(plus all the others) and to get a all up 2000# car to go from 30mph to ?, cover one mile in 31-2/5" is unheard of performance. Each time the Stanley ran against a huge European car it won by 6-8 seconds, or in another perspective won the one mile race by 1/4 mile! This very light car was considered fragile but not so fragile to hold together that day with 3000'# of stall engine torque put upon it. There is only one way to do this and that is brutal acceleration and gobs of torque/thrust. Can you imagine the utter disbelief of these great European owners and there drivers in getting beaten so badly by this upside down canoe? Talk about complete demoralization of the European crews---they had come over to beat each other. Now before any one takes me to task on the numbers please mathmatically crunch the numbers and find out what it takes to move a 2000# car over that mile from 30mph in 31-2/5".
My results, utilizing all the engine and boiler/wind resistance data is that the car would have been doing 145mph at the end---and then I am still 2/5" slow.
A new 2001 Corvette would be very hard pressed to duplicate this feat. That is why I believe the Dewars Cup was the forgotton race(s) of 1906. The car had to deliver upwards of 180 horsepower to accomplish this and carry a steam chest pressure of 600psi for all of the 31 seconds, but then they started with 800psi.
George</HTML>
I am so glad that another one of us was at Ormond and you friends with the owner of the big Mercedes(that was beaten by Bill Barnes's Vanderbilt).
One of the most incredible and also most forgotten feat was that of the Stanley Racer in 1906. Everyone talks about the world speed record set by this car but the forgotten run(s) was the mind boggling performance it accomplished in the "one mile in competition", known as the Dewars Cup race. In this race the cars would do an all out acceleration run of one mile with a rolling start in competition. The Stanley was in the first and last race, did I believe four all out acceleration runs that day in competition. The mind boggling part of it was it did this race in only 2+ seconds more than its record setting flying mile. This rolling start could have been at 30-40mph and then all out! I have crunched thousands of numbers on this one(plus all the others) and to get a all up 2000# car to go from 30mph to ?, cover one mile in 31-2/5" is unheard of performance. Each time the Stanley ran against a huge European car it won by 6-8 seconds, or in another perspective won the one mile race by 1/4 mile! This very light car was considered fragile but not so fragile to hold together that day with 3000'# of stall engine torque put upon it. There is only one way to do this and that is brutal acceleration and gobs of torque/thrust. Can you imagine the utter disbelief of these great European owners and there drivers in getting beaten so badly by this upside down canoe? Talk about complete demoralization of the European crews---they had come over to beat each other. Now before any one takes me to task on the numbers please mathmatically crunch the numbers and find out what it takes to move a 2000# car over that mile from 30mph in 31-2/5".
My results, utilizing all the engine and boiler/wind resistance data is that the car would have been doing 145mph at the end---and then I am still 2/5" slow.
A new 2001 Corvette would be very hard pressed to duplicate this feat. That is why I believe the Dewars Cup was the forgotton race(s) of 1906. The car had to deliver upwards of 180 horsepower to accomplish this and carry a steam chest pressure of 600psi for all of the 31 seconds, but then they started with 800psi.
George</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: Howard Randall (IP Logged)
Date: May 01, 2003 04:02PM
<HTML>What a great novel/ movie this story would (will) make! I whished I could have been there this year George. I almost jumped into the Porsche and drove down. My loving wife had different thought of me driving 24 hours in a high speed automobile without her guiding hand! I will be there in 06, if only to fulfill my father's dream of celebrating these accomplishments 50 years ago!
My friend, who move to Ormond Beach from Boston a few years ago, sent me literature / newspaper articles. Most had an "explosion / gas car" spin to them. I was disappointed to see that the official brochure featured a picture of early beauty queens for 06 and a picture of the Stanley Rocket for 07. The narrative of the 07 photo seemed very non flattering to the Stanley achievements, and to me, stress the 07 accident rather than the 06 achievements! From what I read, you would hardly know that steam ruled the day. With your help, we will see that the record is set straight in 06!!!!
I think that many in the hobby and certainly most gas car writers do not really understand the whole power strokes/rev, torque, and get up and go capability of a two cylinder compound steam engine. Talk about your Hemi's and Ft-lb/ Hp. No comparison. Say it again! 3000' lbs off the line! Even my little 10Hp impresses most to dare to ride.
Thank goodness it was rolling start or they would have buried the thing in the sand or spun the spokes out of the rear wheels trying to get down the beach. Had it been a standing mile, the Stanley would have been ½ mile or more ahead, waiting for the explosion machines to climb up their torque curves.</HTML>
My friend, who move to Ormond Beach from Boston a few years ago, sent me literature / newspaper articles. Most had an "explosion / gas car" spin to them. I was disappointed to see that the official brochure featured a picture of early beauty queens for 06 and a picture of the Stanley Rocket for 07. The narrative of the 07 photo seemed very non flattering to the Stanley achievements, and to me, stress the 07 accident rather than the 06 achievements! From what I read, you would hardly know that steam ruled the day. With your help, we will see that the record is set straight in 06!!!!
I think that many in the hobby and certainly most gas car writers do not really understand the whole power strokes/rev, torque, and get up and go capability of a two cylinder compound steam engine. Talk about your Hemi's and Ft-lb/ Hp. No comparison. Say it again! 3000' lbs off the line! Even my little 10Hp impresses most to dare to ride.
Thank goodness it was rolling start or they would have buried the thing in the sand or spun the spokes out of the rear wheels trying to get down the beach. Had it been a standing mile, the Stanley would have been ½ mile or more ahead, waiting for the explosion machines to climb up their torque curves.</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: May 01, 2003 04:40PM
<HTML>Howard,
Aahh---you have the fever/excitement of what a feat was accomplished. By the way it was 3000'# of engine torque not 3000# of thrust. even with the back gearing and 1000# thrust at the tires(I can't find the paper I did for Coburn years ago so don't trust my numbers) it would be .5G and that would be 0-30mph in 2.7 seconds. I think the starting thrust could be more in the order of 1200# or .6G. I can only tell you, that after doing all the other runs many years ago--and each one reveals important information in itself-- to grind thru all these numbers and try to get to this run. Pumps off, boiler screaming hot and at 800psi, manually controlled 4 venturi burner with no pilot, Marriot was well taught by Stanley on how to play automotive chess.
In this one mile run the water level could be rather low so great acceleration would not slosh water in the 30" boiler into the superheater and have enough head room to prevent this great rising/fomenting water level from doing the same. I forget how many pounds of water it took theoretically to do this but it was somewhere between 1-2 inches of water level. This huge 30" boiler was ideal for its purpose, much better than any monotube as its thermal storage was so great, and could be overdrawn 3-4X its steady state output of 900-1000#/hr, that is almost 4000#/hr on overdraw. I get goosebumps thinking about Marriot sitting a few inches in front of this caldron knowing if the pressure automatic ever shut down the fire it would not come back on again, his absolute trust in the makers that it would work and was safe, the piano wire would hold, all the while trying to keep the pressure up and holding a steering tiller between his legs. He certainly was the man for the job.
Great stuff-may we make 1906! George</HTML>
Aahh---you have the fever/excitement of what a feat was accomplished. By the way it was 3000'# of engine torque not 3000# of thrust. even with the back gearing and 1000# thrust at the tires(I can't find the paper I did for Coburn years ago so don't trust my numbers) it would be .5G and that would be 0-30mph in 2.7 seconds. I think the starting thrust could be more in the order of 1200# or .6G. I can only tell you, that after doing all the other runs many years ago--and each one reveals important information in itself-- to grind thru all these numbers and try to get to this run. Pumps off, boiler screaming hot and at 800psi, manually controlled 4 venturi burner with no pilot, Marriot was well taught by Stanley on how to play automotive chess.
In this one mile run the water level could be rather low so great acceleration would not slosh water in the 30" boiler into the superheater and have enough head room to prevent this great rising/fomenting water level from doing the same. I forget how many pounds of water it took theoretically to do this but it was somewhere between 1-2 inches of water level. This huge 30" boiler was ideal for its purpose, much better than any monotube as its thermal storage was so great, and could be overdrawn 3-4X its steady state output of 900-1000#/hr, that is almost 4000#/hr on overdraw. I get goosebumps thinking about Marriot sitting a few inches in front of this caldron knowing if the pressure automatic ever shut down the fire it would not come back on again, his absolute trust in the makers that it would work and was safe, the piano wire would hold, all the while trying to keep the pressure up and holding a steering tiller between his legs. He certainly was the man for the job.
Great stuff-may we make 1906! George</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: Caleb Ramsby (IP Logged)
Date: May 01, 2003 04:42PM
<HTML>Mabey some of you guys can help me understand something.
I can't read modern magazines about cars or even off road trucks any more, because they are infatuated with the almost irrelevent horsepower number. They almost never mention the effect that torque has on the performance of a vehicle. I think that the trains with their "tractive effort" numbers come the closest to being legitimate with the real performance of a vehicle.
What my question is, is how did the automobile industry get into the horsepower swing of things. It is my understanding(which may be incorrect) that when motorized conveyances first came into use they were measured more in how much torque was availiable at a given speed/rpm. How in the world did we get to people slobering over high horsepower numbers that don't mean a thing in real world driving?
I was telling one of my buddies, who loves the 454, that the Dobles made around 2000 pounds per foot of torque and he almost passed out. Most people have a grave misunderstanding of how well the old steamers performed.
Speaking of such, are there any prints availiable for the Vanderbuilt engine? If so, does it have the same notorous weak frame that I have heard most Stanley engines have? How reliable do you think it would be in everyday use? 3000 pounds per foot is a LOT of power!
Jim,
I am very glad to hear that you arn't condensing such a marvelous work! It's people like you who make history come alive, without access to information about history, it might as well not have happened.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
I can't read modern magazines about cars or even off road trucks any more, because they are infatuated with the almost irrelevent horsepower number. They almost never mention the effect that torque has on the performance of a vehicle. I think that the trains with their "tractive effort" numbers come the closest to being legitimate with the real performance of a vehicle.
What my question is, is how did the automobile industry get into the horsepower swing of things. It is my understanding(which may be incorrect) that when motorized conveyances first came into use they were measured more in how much torque was availiable at a given speed/rpm. How in the world did we get to people slobering over high horsepower numbers that don't mean a thing in real world driving?
I was telling one of my buddies, who loves the 454, that the Dobles made around 2000 pounds per foot of torque and he almost passed out. Most people have a grave misunderstanding of how well the old steamers performed.
Speaking of such, are there any prints availiable for the Vanderbuilt engine? If so, does it have the same notorous weak frame that I have heard most Stanley engines have? How reliable do you think it would be in everyday use? 3000 pounds per foot is a LOT of power!
Jim,
I am very glad to hear that you arn't condensing such a marvelous work! It's people like you who make history come alive, without access to information about history, it might as well not have happened.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: Caleb Ramsby (IP Logged)
Date: May 01, 2003 04:49PM
<HTML>George,
That certianly is an intense story! I wonder if he even had a seat belt? Probably not! On his second run in 07 didn't he get the boiler pressure above that of 06? He must have deciced that it wasn't intense enough in 06.grin
I didn't even know about the rolling start race, that is an achievement, even by todays standards! I used to have a lawn mower that had tiller steer, it is amazing how quike their response is. I can only imagine using one at 100 mph plus!
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
That certianly is an intense story! I wonder if he even had a seat belt? Probably not! On his second run in 07 didn't he get the boiler pressure above that of 06? He must have deciced that it wasn't intense enough in 06.grin
I didn't even know about the rolling start race, that is an achievement, even by todays standards! I used to have a lawn mower that had tiller steer, it is amazing how quike their response is. I can only imagine using one at 100 mph plus!
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: May 01, 2003 09:15PM
<HTML>Fred Mariott was a bicycle rarer,,,,many of the earlier racers were,,,so fast steering was the norm,,,the 1904 Napier was 4:1 ratio,,,,,200deg of steering wheel to 50 deg at the wheel spindle,,,,That 1min 1sec =1mi at the Worcester hill climb still gives me goosebumps and WOW It was FUN Baldwin had done it in 54sec in 08,,, ON DIRT Now that takes technique,,,,,For the fellows that dont know,,,,vertical climb is 130' Does anyone know the time for the 4cyl Napier on this hill,,,There is a photo of it in the parking lot 1905 I think,,,,Cant miss that radiator filler,,,about 5''d x 8''tall engine was 796 cid,,,,,6.5 x 6'',,,,Good competition eh? Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: May 02, 2003 02:55PM
<HTML>Coburn,
With the excitement of 2003 Ormond Beach in back of us what about someone building a sorta replica of the 06' Racer for 1906? Couldn't cost too much to find a canoe maker and make a replica body, use a good Bryan engine and make a 30" biler, the rest of the car should be relatively easy. Imagine duplicating(in part) the phenomenal performance of the car in the Dewars Cup race. You know more about all this stuff and have more information than anyone else I know. Something to ponder on a cold, rainy(but no ice) day in Maine. I can see it now--
"there once was a man from Limerick Maine"
"whe created a Stanley Steamer of very great fame"
"He blew the doors off of every car at Ormond Beach 06' "
"and on the way down everything else betwixt!"
George in New Hampsha</HTML>
With the excitement of 2003 Ormond Beach in back of us what about someone building a sorta replica of the 06' Racer for 1906? Couldn't cost too much to find a canoe maker and make a replica body, use a good Bryan engine and make a 30" biler, the rest of the car should be relatively easy. Imagine duplicating(in part) the phenomenal performance of the car in the Dewars Cup race. You know more about all this stuff and have more information than anyone else I know. Something to ponder on a cold, rainy(but no ice) day in Maine. I can see it now--
"there once was a man from Limerick Maine"
"whe created a Stanley Steamer of very great fame"
"He blew the doors off of every car at Ormond Beach 06' "
"and on the way down everything else betwixt!"
George in New Hampsha</HTML>
Re: ORMOND BEACH-2003 CENTENNIAL
Posted by: jim reed (IP Logged)
Date: May 03, 2003 12:48AM
<HTML>Just a note about "the beach". After I read all the tales of running on the beach while researching my book I just had to drive it myself. I arrived at dawn one morning and proceeded south to the inlet on the beach passing through the pier at Daytona. Now I've raced at Daytona Speedway for over a decade on bikes as large as Yamaha TZ-750 two strokes, so I am used to going quickly. As the beach was completely deserted I couldn't help but put my foot in it. Driving my Toyota with five speeds, OHC engine, disc brakes and rack and pinion steering the best speed my courage would allow me to muster was 60-70 mph. At that speed the dips in the hard flat beach become extremely pronounced and things felt decidedly hairy. Running 100-150 in an inverted canoe is unbelieveable. Then doing twice that as Campbell did is staggering. Threading the eye of the needle at the pier going 200 mph speaks volumes about the kind of men who used to run on the beach and their dedication to developing the new technology of the automobile. Campbell was very frank in stating that what he did was more for the "Empire" than for himself. Being at the Centenial gave me for the first time a glimpse of what it must have been like. I definitely plan on going back in November. In all my research, except for Roper, I have never come across anyone who has ever run a steam motorcycle for a recorded speed or speed record. Does anyone know of anybody else? Regards, Jim</HTML>
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