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Hydraulic Brakes -yes or no?
Posted by: Peter Turvey (IP Logged)
Date: November 27, 2001 12:12PM
<HTML>The question is, should I fit hydraulic internal drum brakes to our Stanley Model 607 #7644 during the restoration?
On the one hand its a shame to do this to such an orignal car - but the other Model 607 and the Model 65 over here in the UK have both had this done, and their breaking performance is just about adequate.
I don't want to spend a lot on a brake rebuild of the orignal and then find the braking performance is so poor we have to do a second rebuild to add hydraulics. I'd keep the orignal brake drum size so not to spoil the look of the car too much. It will also be interesting to see what the Veteran car Club of Great Britain have ot say on this, and how it afects our dating application..
Can anyone give us any advice?
Peter Turvey
London
England</HTML>
On the one hand its a shame to do this to such an orignal car - but the other Model 607 and the Model 65 over here in the UK have both had this done, and their breaking performance is just about adequate.
I don't want to spend a lot on a brake rebuild of the orignal and then find the braking performance is so poor we have to do a second rebuild to add hydraulics. I'd keep the orignal brake drum size so not to spoil the look of the car too much. It will also be interesting to see what the Veteran car Club of Great Britain have ot say on this, and how it afects our dating application..
Can anyone give us any advice?
Peter Turvey
London
England</HTML>
Re: Hydraulic Brakes -yes or no?
Posted by: Pat Farrell (IP Logged)
Date: November 28, 2001 01:16PM
<HTML>Dear Peter, Your question has merit. The only advantage that hydraulic brakes have, is even braking pressure. You still only have two wheel brakes. And hydraulics will still over heat and have brake fade. I have about 25 cars and about half of them have hydraulic brakes. After sitting all winter, the cars with mechanical brakes always work. Those with hydraulic brakes often have stuck and leaking wheel cylinders. Some say that the mechanical brakes are harder to push than hydraulic brakes. If that is a problem then changing the length of leverage on you brake pedal would aid your effort. The biggest improvement that you can do to your 607 is to change out your steel brake drums for cast iron drums. With that and good lining, you look stock and will not have the brake fade often found in the old steel drums. Many sources are available for cast iron drums. I have put over 20,000 miles on our 606 without any problems with mechanical brakes. Do not change to hydraulic brakes.</HTML>
Re: Hydraulic Brakes - no ! ! !
Posted by: coburn benson (IP Logged)
Date: November 28, 2001 03:43PM
<HTML>It has botherd me for some time that otherwise intellegent people will spend time and $ to fit juce brakes when they had perhaps done a nearly a nearly criminaly neglent fix up on the old system....There ARE a few early cars that have problems BUT the linkage is not usually the culpert....ie the cars w/brake drums inside oil cases!! [T Ford ,,early Stanley etc , and the ones w/ wood block lining !! My most exciting moments in on the edge of existance,, have been TOO many and w/ juce brakes, the old style w/no #2 backup cylender,,,, this is the one I have seen in most car up[BACK] dates,,,,,Ihave only had ONE failure on mechanical brakes AND I shall NEVER again forget a cotter pin....That was around middle of Sept 1951 I recall it vividly even now but the hand brake was inperfect order so none of my 6 passengers noticed.....Among things to see to ::: :The drums should be round by measure not by eye;;;;the drums should be concentric ,,,measure again :::The shoes should be the same dia as the drum [or - .003 or so ]] {suggest using slightly oversize lining ,,+turning it to fit ]] I have done this on 20 yo motorcycle and competed succesfully against new 2 leading shoe stuff ,,but this was a few years ago,,,we gained CONTROL that the new boys didnt have,,,and my rider oout braked em and they went off the track...FUN! Control is the real issue I think AND ultimate braking is coefficient of friction X Weight on REAR BRAKING wheels !!! If and only IF,,,U hav a 2 wb car w/ lo center of gravity Big object looms ahead and U have side room Henry Keyes told me the technique is lock the rear wheels and bring e/r round CUT hard over get all 4 to dig in ,,,after practice .,,u'll be able to straitn out n'not look to stupid an n' not tag anuthing too costly,,,,Bear in mind he had fliped 4 Simplex 's !!Personally I recall doing this just once w/a Ghost Rolls ,,,threw out my shoulder gettin it ''round again''and developed a verry special appreciation for those VERRY deep finger groves at the bottom of the Ghost steering wheel Oh yes, MY favorate brakes of all time is theRolls mechanical power servo Now /THERE is a braking system to copy .. it has a power winch to pull the brake on But only a boost so it still has FEEL as on ICE...XXXXX If U need to use reverse on steamers be sure to throw the links to foreward once in a while on long grades to pass steam AND OIL to the VALVES.....From the FLAT EARTH racers in w/ Maine Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Hydraulic Brakes - no ! ! !
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: November 29, 2001 06:04PM
<HTML>Coburn,
Greatly appreciate your Maine(USA) humor, reminds me of the old joke about a lost tourist asking someone from the backwoods of Maine for directions---the response was "Can't Get Thea From Heea", no "R"s of course.
Didn't Bugatti use mechanical brakes until the end of their racing days??
I would think they were damn good for their time. I also wonder whatever happened to his beautiful big steam poppet valve engine he built, you are the historian---any idea?
George</HTML>
Greatly appreciate your Maine(USA) humor, reminds me of the old joke about a lost tourist asking someone from the backwoods of Maine for directions---the response was "Can't Get Thea From Heea", no "R"s of course.
Didn't Bugatti use mechanical brakes until the end of their racing days??
I would think they were damn good for their time. I also wonder whatever happened to his beautiful big steam poppet valve engine he built, you are the historian---any idea?
George</HTML>
Re: Hydraulic Brakes - maybe
Posted by: Ron Parola (IP Logged)
Date: December 01, 2001 06:40PM
<HTML>Well for whatever its worth I've got juice brakes on my '22 740 seven passenger touring. The car was missing one side brakes altogether. I'm using a system based on a Ford 600 truck front brake. They are the same diameter but were wider than the Stanley brake and also they are double leading shoe. The original service brake is now the ebrake. I have driven other cars with original brakes and these do work better, However no matter what type of brake they are still on only on the rear wheels, the front brakes do 80% of the work on a newer car. The main advantage is more even braking (no adjusting for worn clevis's) and in my case I am using iron drums, which don't expand as easely and have a better coifficent of friction, and they don"t fade as quickly. But on a lighter car that isn't as much a problem, with good drums (they can be plasma sprayed to make them round again) and modern linings they should be OK. Ron P</HTML>
Re: Hydraulic Brakes - yes!
Posted by: Alan Woolf (IP Logged)
Date: December 02, 2001 11:45AM
<HTML>I am a convert to hydraulic brakes for a couple of reasons. Number one is that our 17 Model 730 Stanley is a heavy car and it needs all of the help it can get to stop with a full load. Internal hydraulic brakes work in the rain. Externals are iffy at best when wet. I live in an area where the traffic is very heavy and being able to stop reliably is important. And for me they provide peace of mind while driving because they do work. This is from over 15k miles behind steam in the last few years.
On our car we made the change in such a manner that everything can be restored to its original function. We based ours on 3/4 ton Ford truck parts.
If you plan to drive it a lot carefully consider changing to hydraulics and do it in a manner that can be reversed.
Alan</HTML>
On our car we made the change in such a manner that everything can be restored to its original function. We based ours on 3/4 ton Ford truck parts.
If you plan to drive it a lot carefully consider changing to hydraulics and do it in a manner that can be reversed.
Alan</HTML>
Re: Hydraulic Brakes - yes!
Posted by: Christopher W. Roberts (IP Logged)
Date: December 03, 2001 11:15PM
<HTML> My own openion for what it is worth is if you have all the parts to make the original mecanical breaks work...use them. Modern lineing is far supperior and works just fine on my 1922. If you are missing some parts then go ahead and replace with modern hydrolic breaks. Also rember as what has been said before you are still stopping with only the 2 rear wheels.</HTML>
Re: Hydraulic Brakes - No!
Posted by: Kobus van Jaarsveld (IP Logged)
Date: December 05, 2001 06:21PM
<HTML>I have had the pleasure of getting the brakes on our 735A so hot that they ignited and had to be put out with a fire extinguisher. The brake drums cracked as a result. The modern brake linings did not fade under these conditions.
The linkage is pretty good and can be adjusted easily at the wheel to make actuation fairly equal. Hydraulic brakes will apply pressure more evenly but will in no way overcome the basic problem which is heat build-up. Pouring water on the bands by means of a watercooling arrangement many cars now carry and going downhill sedately keeps things under control. I have opted not to use steam on the brakes of a condensing car for fear of getting oil on the linings. I installed a seperate clear water tank for this purpose. I have also cut 3x2 inch dia holes in each backing plate to help with air circulation inside the drum.</HTML>
The linkage is pretty good and can be adjusted easily at the wheel to make actuation fairly equal. Hydraulic brakes will apply pressure more evenly but will in no way overcome the basic problem which is heat build-up. Pouring water on the bands by means of a watercooling arrangement many cars now carry and going downhill sedately keeps things under control. I have opted not to use steam on the brakes of a condensing car for fear of getting oil on the linings. I installed a seperate clear water tank for this purpose. I have also cut 3x2 inch dia holes in each backing plate to help with air circulation inside the drum.</HTML>
Re: Hydraulic Brakes -yes or no?
Posted by: Mike Zerega (IP Logged)
Date: December 08, 2001 09:05PM
<HTML>Absolutely and definitively yes. You would think that a hobby that readily accepted safety glass as essential would think also that the ability to stop a two ton truck filled with high-pressure steam and pressurized fuel equally as important.
Among my many steam memories is my father in his 735 standing off the seat - right foot on the break, left foot with the engine in full reverse and left hand straining on the hand break with the whistle chain, as we rapidly fly through a red light in Washington, DC.
Look, you have enough to think about operating a steamer without factoring in whether you're going to kill some kid stepping of the curb (kerb?) or some jagoff cutting you off in traffic, as they so often will do because your car will not stop.
I think that all antique car clubs should amend their guidelines to require that ALL cars be able to at least stop.
Mike Zerega</HTML>
Among my many steam memories is my father in his 735 standing off the seat - right foot on the break, left foot with the engine in full reverse and left hand straining on the hand break with the whistle chain, as we rapidly fly through a red light in Washington, DC.
Look, you have enough to think about operating a steamer without factoring in whether you're going to kill some kid stepping of the curb (kerb?) or some jagoff cutting you off in traffic, as they so often will do because your car will not stop.
I think that all antique car clubs should amend their guidelines to require that ALL cars be able to at least stop.
Mike Zerega</HTML>
Re: Hydraulic Brakes,not likely
Posted by: coburn benson (IP Logged)
Date: December 12, 2001 01:05AM
<HTML>As I said above,,,the issue is control ,,,A mechanical brake should slide the wheels on dry pavement,,Period,,If not fix em,,,If you preffer internal brake swop the rods as some of the Pierce drivers did! I am beginning to feel as we venture into modern traffic we will be [forced] convinced to adopt 4 wheel brakes. At this point ,stress on the perch poles will be a peoblem.....I recall a article on getti'n a ''good'' break on a 99 loco The best material to get a grip,,wet or dry [wet w /oil!] was DRY ELM WOOD!! It seems it got such a good grip that it wound up the steel tubular purch rods !! I have seen a few,,very few Stanley pre 15 w/f brakes fitted ,,,Could we hear from anyone how they like this ,and if there were any UNFORSEEN problems,,, To cool the rear brake [2w] is it water or steam to the drum,,,,,,,,XXXX If the lining is to catch fire the brake fluid will almost certainly BOIL,,,, a common failing before hi temp fluid,,,,,An yes, been there done that,,,and even once on these failings is once too much,,,,Can ruin a whole day [year]!!While i'm up,,,,,IF THE drums get seriously overheated check the spokes ,,they will usually loosten if burned a little,,,and a colapsed wheel is no joke either ,, One final dig Have any of you out there driven that wonderful modern 4w/b front DISK HYDRULIC the,,,,,,,,XK 120M Jag in the RAIN, so you lived ,,,we should start a sub-club an tell all these guys what real juce brakes CAN be and how very agile we were back then,, I can almost remember,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Hydraulic Brakes -yes or no?
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: December 15, 2001 05:36PM
<HTML>I have had hydraulic brakes on my 735 for six years. In modern traffic, they are very helpful, and they brought me down Mt. Washington in 1999. There is a description in the "Papers" column of the NorthEast page of the SACA site <www.steamautomobile.com></HTML>
Re: Hydraulic Brakes -No and yes
Posted by: Kobus van Jaarsveld (IP Logged)
Date: December 26, 2001 02:07PM
<HTML>
In considering this issue there is an important distinction that must be made; are we talking about rear two-wheel brakes only, or four-wheel brakes?
If the braking is confined to the rear wheels then there is, apart from more even application, very little to be gained by installing hydraulic actuation. The inadequacy in heat dissipation remains unaltered.
If one is considering four-wheel brakes, then conversion to hydraulics becomes a natural choice. The componentry for this is freely available and surely no one will find the justification to design and make a mechanical system for the front wheels. Unless it is designed and executed with a great deal of sophistication, as Marc Birkigt discovered a long time ago, the probability of it braking unevenly will be very high.
Kobus vJ</HTML>
In considering this issue there is an important distinction that must be made; are we talking about rear two-wheel brakes only, or four-wheel brakes?
If the braking is confined to the rear wheels then there is, apart from more even application, very little to be gained by installing hydraulic actuation. The inadequacy in heat dissipation remains unaltered.
If one is considering four-wheel brakes, then conversion to hydraulics becomes a natural choice. The componentry for this is freely available and surely no one will find the justification to design and make a mechanical system for the front wheels. Unless it is designed and executed with a great deal of sophistication, as Marc Birkigt discovered a long time ago, the probability of it braking unevenly will be very high.
Kobus vJ</HTML>
Re: Hydraulic Brakes -No and yes
Posted by: Ron Parola (IP Logged)
Date: December 29, 2001 06:37PM
<HTML>To answer George Nutz"s query; I saw the Bugatti steam engine a few years ago, at the Schlumpf Museum in Mulhouse France. it is shown in the museum book unfortunately no isbn number but the engine plate is 3105. This was a 8 cylinder inline engine for a huigh speed train, sure is beauiful. Ron Parola</HTML>
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