1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Boiler Carbon Removal
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: February 18, 2002 01:39AM
<HTML>All,
When I use to work on steam cleaners, ocassionally we would get a coil that showed poor performance and cleaning it with acid showed no improvement. The coil was carbon coated (soft or hard) inside from impurities in the feed water, and for cleaning, I was taught to heat the coils with a torch and blow comperessed air through it. The coils could possably be damaged by overheating on the inside as the carbon burnt off and could easily redden the tubes. The process can take off on its own once it gets going but that is rare, usually only when the tubing is almost totally full of goo.
A friend of mine owns a machine shop in a good sized city and he had a large coil take off on its own, starting as a loud whistle and quickly intensifying to a deafning roar, shooting flames and belching smoke more than 50 feet in the air ! The neighbors all ran into the street to find the cause of the great commotion that continued for about 5 minutes, keeping everyone at a safe distance. I think the only reason the fire department and other emergency services never came is the neighbors were use to events like this.
Do they burn carbon from coils with this method for an auto such as a doble, white or others ?
Peter Heid</HTML>
When I use to work on steam cleaners, ocassionally we would get a coil that showed poor performance and cleaning it with acid showed no improvement. The coil was carbon coated (soft or hard) inside from impurities in the feed water, and for cleaning, I was taught to heat the coils with a torch and blow comperessed air through it. The coils could possably be damaged by overheating on the inside as the carbon burnt off and could easily redden the tubes. The process can take off on its own once it gets going but that is rare, usually only when the tubing is almost totally full of goo.
A friend of mine owns a machine shop in a good sized city and he had a large coil take off on its own, starting as a loud whistle and quickly intensifying to a deafning roar, shooting flames and belching smoke more than 50 feet in the air ! The neighbors all ran into the street to find the cause of the great commotion that continued for about 5 minutes, keeping everyone at a safe distance. I think the only reason the fire department and other emergency services never came is the neighbors were use to events like this.
Do they burn carbon from coils with this method for an auto such as a doble, white or others ?
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Boiler Carbon Removal
Posted by: G. B. Gilbert (IP Logged)
Date: February 18, 2002 04:10AM
<HTML>Is there no solvent that will dissolve the carbon deposit less dramatically?</HTML>
Re: Boiler Carbon Removal
Posted by: George K. Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: February 18, 2002 10:27AM
<HTML>Peter,
Abner Doble recommended sandblasting with a lot of air. In his Bancroft boiler notes he also mentions a chemical treatment, will try and dig that little bit out of all those scattered notes. jim Crank would know.
George</HTML>
Abner Doble recommended sandblasting with a lot of air. In his Bancroft boiler notes he also mentions a chemical treatment, will try and dig that little bit out of all those scattered notes. jim Crank would know.
George</HTML>
Re: Boiler Carbon Removal
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: February 18, 2002 11:09AM
<HTML>I routinely clean the vaporizor of my Stanley burner by heating a short section to redness and blowing air through it. If the reaction seems to be getting too vigorous, I simply turn off the air for a while. When I could get clear kero, I needed to do this every 3-4 years, but with the died stuff, it must be done twice a season! Done with care, this is not too hard on the tube, the old vaporizor lasted almost thirty years.</HTML>
Re: Boiler Carbon Removal
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: February 18, 2002 01:55PM
<HTML>Gentlemen,
Oh yes, I sure do know.
Besler used a hot solution of inhibited phosphoric and hydrochoric acid, about a 20% solution, pumped through the coil assembly of his industrial boilers that came back for cleaning. Took about three days on the back porch of the plant; but it seems to work.
Barney Becker used to wait until the coil in E-14 was sluggish, then we hooked up an oxygen tank to the superheater outlet, he then manually held down the temperature contact and got the whole top of the boiler red hot, then turned on the oxygen and the eruption that came out of the water inlet connection was spectacular to say the least. Flame, red smoke, blacksmoke,screeching noise, the whole shebang.
We found with the Whites that they rapidly get full of rubbish including carbon, and Mel Howell found a great cleaning chemical.
It was called "JACKS COIL CLEANER" from some mom and pop outfit in the midwest. They are now out of business; but I happen to have one new unopened jug left. I am taking it to an analysis lab tomorrow to find out what is in it besides the phosphoric acid that is listed on the label. Needless to say, steel and plastic connections only, NO BRASS OR BRONZE, or they disappear!!!
I will report the analysis as soon as I get it.
Now do you guys see why I am so adament about getting rid of oil in steam cars, or at least the need for a super duper separator?
Jim</HTML>
Oh yes, I sure do know.
Besler used a hot solution of inhibited phosphoric and hydrochoric acid, about a 20% solution, pumped through the coil assembly of his industrial boilers that came back for cleaning. Took about three days on the back porch of the plant; but it seems to work.
Barney Becker used to wait until the coil in E-14 was sluggish, then we hooked up an oxygen tank to the superheater outlet, he then manually held down the temperature contact and got the whole top of the boiler red hot, then turned on the oxygen and the eruption that came out of the water inlet connection was spectacular to say the least. Flame, red smoke, blacksmoke,screeching noise, the whole shebang.
We found with the Whites that they rapidly get full of rubbish including carbon, and Mel Howell found a great cleaning chemical.
It was called "JACKS COIL CLEANER" from some mom and pop outfit in the midwest. They are now out of business; but I happen to have one new unopened jug left. I am taking it to an analysis lab tomorrow to find out what is in it besides the phosphoric acid that is listed on the label. Needless to say, steel and plastic connections only, NO BRASS OR BRONZE, or they disappear!!!
I will report the analysis as soon as I get it.
Now do you guys see why I am so adament about getting rid of oil in steam cars, or at least the need for a super duper separator?
Jim</HTML>
Re: Boiler Carbon Removal
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: February 18, 2002 01:55PM
<HTML>We clean 2 stroke exhausts by heating with a oxy-acetylene torch till the mung and drool hardens and starts to burn. At that point we just turn off the acetylene and vary the burn rate the oxygen. This method leaves just ashes.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Boiler Carbon Removal
Posted by: George K. Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: February 18, 2002 04:16PM
<HTML>Yup,
Told ya all Jim would know!! Abner Dobles notes , page 69 in his boiler notes, recommended boiling a weak solution of vinegar in the tube or a 2-1/2% solution of hydrocloric acid. For maintenance he recommended 2ppm of sodium-hexametaphosphate!! But it may not have worked completely as Abner was still burning out coils at the end of the evaporation section when he wrote this in 1936. This stuff only happens when there is no wetness to the steam left and the tube temperatures rise enough to creat the deposits.
The answere, once again is the Lamont as no section of the hottest tube evaporation circuit will become dry or significantly hotter than the steam saturation temperature--- unless the circulating pump fails. A fail-safe switch can be incorporated to shut the fire down if this occures.
George</HTML>
Told ya all Jim would know!! Abner Dobles notes , page 69 in his boiler notes, recommended boiling a weak solution of vinegar in the tube or a 2-1/2% solution of hydrocloric acid. For maintenance he recommended 2ppm of sodium-hexametaphosphate!! But it may not have worked completely as Abner was still burning out coils at the end of the evaporation section when he wrote this in 1936. This stuff only happens when there is no wetness to the steam left and the tube temperatures rise enough to creat the deposits.
The answere, once again is the Lamont as no section of the hottest tube evaporation circuit will become dry or significantly hotter than the steam saturation temperature--- unless the circulating pump fails. A fail-safe switch can be incorporated to shut the fire down if this occures.
George</HTML>
Re: Boiler Carbon Removal -- Presto Change-O?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: February 19, 2002 10:22AM
<HTML>Two words on fire-cleaning carboned tubes: ¡Ay Carumba!
Eliminating carbon buildup by adopting a circulating boiler seems the best approach. Especially considering the other advantages of a circulating boiler.
However, if you just _gotta_ have an oily once-through steam generator, how about designing-in a quick-change tube coil, next to the fire, in which the final generating and superheating of the steam would occur? When it carbons up, just unscrew it and frisbee it off the nearest cliff. Then pop in a new or previously-cleaned coil. If the dirty coil is too rare or pricey to discard, either clean it yourself or (for a theoretical new production steamer) turn it in at the auto parts store or dealer/factory for a core charge. Or the service station/dealer could send the old coil out for cleaning, after installing the new one for you in a few minutes at about the same price as a gas car oil/filter change. Dirty coils might find their way to Jack's Coil Cleaning™, or Oxyblast™ Inc., or the like, specialists with automated equipment to clean the coils assembly-line fashion (and EPA-OK) for a few bucks each. Coils for the world's only limited-production steam car would go to a special cleaning shop at the factory.
The same approach could be taken with fuel vaporizers, if vaporizing burners are your thing. I'm not suggesting quick-change coils for authentic classics, just for new possible-production designs. Well, I have heard of Stanleys with spare pilots in the toolbox.
To be acceptable in a production steamer, the scheduled (pre-clog) tube-change interval would have to be 3000-6000 miles (minimum), same as scheduled oil/filter change intervals in current gas cars, which are also mainly due to carbon (particle) buildup. If carbon stops your ride every 1000-2000 miles or less, then forget the quick-change coils and use a Lamont.
Just a thought.
BTW, how far do the classic steam cars go between carbon cleanings? Boiler carbon seems practically taboo in the literature, and reported vaporizer cleanout intervals are all over the map.
Peter</HTML>
Eliminating carbon buildup by adopting a circulating boiler seems the best approach. Especially considering the other advantages of a circulating boiler.
However, if you just _gotta_ have an oily once-through steam generator, how about designing-in a quick-change tube coil, next to the fire, in which the final generating and superheating of the steam would occur? When it carbons up, just unscrew it and frisbee it off the nearest cliff. Then pop in a new or previously-cleaned coil. If the dirty coil is too rare or pricey to discard, either clean it yourself or (for a theoretical new production steamer) turn it in at the auto parts store or dealer/factory for a core charge. Or the service station/dealer could send the old coil out for cleaning, after installing the new one for you in a few minutes at about the same price as a gas car oil/filter change. Dirty coils might find their way to Jack's Coil Cleaning™, or Oxyblast™ Inc., or the like, specialists with automated equipment to clean the coils assembly-line fashion (and EPA-OK) for a few bucks each. Coils for the world's only limited-production steam car would go to a special cleaning shop at the factory.
The same approach could be taken with fuel vaporizers, if vaporizing burners are your thing. I'm not suggesting quick-change coils for authentic classics, just for new possible-production designs. Well, I have heard of Stanleys with spare pilots in the toolbox.
To be acceptable in a production steamer, the scheduled (pre-clog) tube-change interval would have to be 3000-6000 miles (minimum), same as scheduled oil/filter change intervals in current gas cars, which are also mainly due to carbon (particle) buildup. If carbon stops your ride every 1000-2000 miles or less, then forget the quick-change coils and use a Lamont.
Just a thought.
BTW, how far do the classic steam cars go between carbon cleanings? Boiler carbon seems practically taboo in the literature, and reported vaporizer cleanout intervals are all over the map.
Peter</HTML>
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