1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: EARL C. LEAVEY, JR. (IP Logged)
Date: August 05, 2004 12:50AM
<HTML>E-BAY AUCTION [cgi.ebay.com];
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Charlie Lorance (IP Logged)
Date: August 10, 2004 11:41AM
<HTML>ONLY 1 DAY LEFT ON THIS AUCTION !!!! I e-mailed the museum and they replied that the only information they have is what they have posted. BUT the description is contradictory. It says "the last time the car was driven was when it was delivered to the museum", later in the description it says "upon research, the engine is a mock-up." So which is it? How do you drive a car with a fake engine? My opinion is that the staff let some youngster write the description !!!</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: August 10, 2004 10:59PM
<HTML>$16,000 minimum bid for a one off experimental steamer that hasn't run in nearly thirty years, and there may exist no drawings to help one even figure out how it was suppose to work, or even if this car can be made to run, I think one might be better off trying to build their own.
Garry</HTML>
Garry</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Graeme Vagg (IP Logged)
Date: August 11, 2004 12:51AM
<HTML>Gary,
This car may be best left in a collector's museum as an example of one of the few modern steam cars ever built. It did demonstrate, with others, that steam power could meet the new air pollution standards due in 1975 but did not demonstrate good fuel economy.
I'm sure there is plenty of technical information available in s.a.e or steam club literature to undestand the steam system and get it running again. It is still has a state-of-art steam generator but would need a more efficient engine/drive system to match modern steam car performance. At the time Carter was about twice as good as SPS in both car and para transit vehicle developments - the latter being a Government funded project which has both competing head to head.
A modern developer may be best starting from scratch but would need to budget on spending a heap more than $16k.
Lack of interest in this car could be bad news for prospective developers as it could indicate that nobody out there really wants a new steam car of any type. In 20 or 30 years time your lifetime of effort could remain unloved and unwanted. A sobering thought for all.
Graeme</HTML>
This car may be best left in a collector's museum as an example of one of the few modern steam cars ever built. It did demonstrate, with others, that steam power could meet the new air pollution standards due in 1975 but did not demonstrate good fuel economy.
I'm sure there is plenty of technical information available in s.a.e or steam club literature to undestand the steam system and get it running again. It is still has a state-of-art steam generator but would need a more efficient engine/drive system to match modern steam car performance. At the time Carter was about twice as good as SPS in both car and para transit vehicle developments - the latter being a Government funded project which has both competing head to head.
A modern developer may be best starting from scratch but would need to budget on spending a heap more than $16k.
Lack of interest in this car could be bad news for prospective developers as it could indicate that nobody out there really wants a new steam car of any type. In 20 or 30 years time your lifetime of effort could remain unloved and unwanted. A sobering thought for all.
Graeme</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: August 13, 2004 03:09PM
<HTML>I hear what you are saying Graeme. I sometimes think that flourish of interest in steam back in the sixties was the last hurrah of the steam car. The reality is, unless someone could build a steam power plant that shows at least equal efficiency as it modern IC counter part, while also being cheaper to build, no financially sane company is going to show interest.
The steamer is for those of us that have experienced the sensation of what being under steam is about. It’s what drives our dreams, fantasies, and even rarely produces a car that will run down the road. I loudly applaud the theoretical group that keeps taking our thinking into what is needed to improve the steam engine. I think Jim Crank’s search for an alternative to the reciprocator, and all of its unsolved basic problems, is commendable in every way. Those that maintain, produce parts, and even replicate the classic steamers are keeping our history and passion alive.
If we are to see what is currently our hobby flourish beyond it’s present scope, I think we need to work with has worked in the past. Adding what modern materials and engineering that can be applied ‘now’. With out doing even more time consuming development and research, it will take a good bit of effort to take the ‘known’ into the realm of reliability one could consider using as a daily driver.
To get such a basic steam ‘kit’ underway, it would take a small dedicated knowledgeable group. A group that is perhaps best set up on the ‘open source’ model of the computer operating system of Linux. Which considering what a group of individual thinkers I have run across among steam folks, even agreeing to that would be a major hurdle.
Throwing out what I am wanting to build myself, I believe a best first effort would end up looking very much like Ted Pritichard’s front engined V-twin unaflow. I would think it wise to make a few attachment points to the front of the expander so if someone else wants to direct drive pumps, or what not, you can say, here’s the opening, there’s the crank... Go For It! Mate that to the Rolly/Nutz Lamont steam generator, and then work out the simplest control system that can be devised. At the point the system can be run with just basic maintenance, then the group should get into writing assembly and operation manuals. Add to that, a complete set of drawings with material specks, and you have something to sell to the home shop machinist crowd. ‘If’ there is interest, then small concerns might be encouraged in providing castings and possibly even sub assemblies. Some where along this point, you might interest Jay Leno in writing a blurb for this new home built ‘toy’, that you can drive to the local grocer.
The very next thing, or perhaps even a bit sooner, I would look at is the developments taking place in multi-fuel surface combustion burners. The idea from the sight I posted yesterday of a self sensing burner that does not mind what burnable liquid you drop in the fuel tank should garner some ‘real’ interest from the public.
The open source concept may have its limits as far as far an individual manufacture of automobiles goes. It would however really encourage competition and development among parts suppliers. Assuming the sales of plans and subassemblies turned enough coin to do the research and testing, and the theoretical folks can make the Unaflow both efficient and docile, while not adding enough parts to build a Space Shuttle, then the steamer might be headed into greener pastures. The open source concept is not going to create a single manufacture of steam autos. The early days would be ones of sorting out who builds junk and who builds gems. What you would end up with is a hand full of relatively small concerns working in conjunction to improve the breed. Also, it is sort of hard to wipe out a decent idea, when that idea belongs to everyone. As, Bill Gates is discovering.
To be honest, I do not believe steam will ever compete with IC for the monies spent on research or public funds. What I think such a project could do is make enough money to fund itself, and perhaps create a few jobs for those that put their time and effort into building the better steamer.
Wooo.. My apologies for such a long post. I can get a bit long winded when I get to thinking about steamers becoming unwanted dusty desplays in the back of some museum. And yes, the above needs a lot more thinking on the parts of a lot more folks to work out the basics of such a dream.
Garry</HTML>
The steamer is for those of us that have experienced the sensation of what being under steam is about. It’s what drives our dreams, fantasies, and even rarely produces a car that will run down the road. I loudly applaud the theoretical group that keeps taking our thinking into what is needed to improve the steam engine. I think Jim Crank’s search for an alternative to the reciprocator, and all of its unsolved basic problems, is commendable in every way. Those that maintain, produce parts, and even replicate the classic steamers are keeping our history and passion alive.
If we are to see what is currently our hobby flourish beyond it’s present scope, I think we need to work with has worked in the past. Adding what modern materials and engineering that can be applied ‘now’. With out doing even more time consuming development and research, it will take a good bit of effort to take the ‘known’ into the realm of reliability one could consider using as a daily driver.
To get such a basic steam ‘kit’ underway, it would take a small dedicated knowledgeable group. A group that is perhaps best set up on the ‘open source’ model of the computer operating system of Linux. Which considering what a group of individual thinkers I have run across among steam folks, even agreeing to that would be a major hurdle.
Throwing out what I am wanting to build myself, I believe a best first effort would end up looking very much like Ted Pritichard’s front engined V-twin unaflow. I would think it wise to make a few attachment points to the front of the expander so if someone else wants to direct drive pumps, or what not, you can say, here’s the opening, there’s the crank... Go For It! Mate that to the Rolly/Nutz Lamont steam generator, and then work out the simplest control system that can be devised. At the point the system can be run with just basic maintenance, then the group should get into writing assembly and operation manuals. Add to that, a complete set of drawings with material specks, and you have something to sell to the home shop machinist crowd. ‘If’ there is interest, then small concerns might be encouraged in providing castings and possibly even sub assemblies. Some where along this point, you might interest Jay Leno in writing a blurb for this new home built ‘toy’, that you can drive to the local grocer.
The very next thing, or perhaps even a bit sooner, I would look at is the developments taking place in multi-fuel surface combustion burners. The idea from the sight I posted yesterday of a self sensing burner that does not mind what burnable liquid you drop in the fuel tank should garner some ‘real’ interest from the public.
The open source concept may have its limits as far as far an individual manufacture of automobiles goes. It would however really encourage competition and development among parts suppliers. Assuming the sales of plans and subassemblies turned enough coin to do the research and testing, and the theoretical folks can make the Unaflow both efficient and docile, while not adding enough parts to build a Space Shuttle, then the steamer might be headed into greener pastures. The open source concept is not going to create a single manufacture of steam autos. The early days would be ones of sorting out who builds junk and who builds gems. What you would end up with is a hand full of relatively small concerns working in conjunction to improve the breed. Also, it is sort of hard to wipe out a decent idea, when that idea belongs to everyone. As, Bill Gates is discovering.
To be honest, I do not believe steam will ever compete with IC for the monies spent on research or public funds. What I think such a project could do is make enough money to fund itself, and perhaps create a few jobs for those that put their time and effort into building the better steamer.
Wooo.. My apologies for such a long post. I can get a bit long winded when I get to thinking about steamers becoming unwanted dusty desplays in the back of some museum. And yes, the above needs a lot more thinking on the parts of a lot more folks to work out the basics of such a dream.
Garry</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Graeme Vagg (IP Logged)
Date: August 14, 2004 06:52PM
<HTML>Gary,
You are on the right track. I did a similar thing back in 1976 when I sponsored a public domain development based on VW beetle engine conversions. This project, Project Steam 77, started with about 25 members who pooled resources that built two different types of engines, boilers and controls, and kept running steam cars on the road since that time. Drawings are still available via the SACA storeroom. The most developed car is the Barrett steam sports car.
To get a new project off the ground, an initial team has to get a demonstration model built and running to a satisfactory level before you can start talking about it. In our case we had a VW floorpan test chassis running with two cylinders of a standard VW engine converted to run on steam using a standard type of Doble boiler with basic controls and a fixed output pressure atomising burner. Initial road tests were done with only 1 gal/hr output and this could sustain 30 mph on the back streets at full boiler pressure. We sold engine kits or fully converted engines to anyone who wanted them. In 1977 the 2 cylinder engine cost about $400 and the 4 cylinder engine cost about $750. We then developed a variable output spinning cup burner from an original design supplied by Doug Garner. The overall system has been developed progressively for about 38 years but none of the upgrades I have been investigating since 1980 have been included. It requires a steady stream of sponsorship money to keep a project alive, and the only person who was willing to keep moving ahead moved on to the greater steam workshop in the sky before the job was finished.
I agree there is enough previous design information available to make a respectable modern steam car but probably nothing that will excite Detroit or even the public at large. The acceptance level will depend on how many of the faults from old steamers you can eliminate. You need to lock up a small team and tell them to come up with something that looks like a finished product. A committee won't be able to do it - remember that a camel is a horse designed by a committee:-).
At the concept stage you will be luck to find 2 people anywhere who will agree on all the main aspects. You need something like a Value Management workshop to make sense of all the ideas available. At this stage we probably don't have enough performance and cost data to go through a proper evaluation so I would not be confident of being 100% right on a first attempt. Being close may be "good enough" at present.
Gas pump prices might have to go up a lot more before others will start taking alternate fuel power systems more seriously. If they wanted a solution tomorrow, we should have had R&D funding fully approved 5 to 10 years ago. Some German companies are well up on this but the rest are not. Lack of interest and the mistaken belief that cheap oil will be always available are putting the population down a deepening hole that will be expensive to get out of. At present world oil prices depend simply on the daily production rate from Saudi Arabia. You need to keep praying for these guys until something better is available. I think we have a problem.
Graeme</HTML>
You are on the right track. I did a similar thing back in 1976 when I sponsored a public domain development based on VW beetle engine conversions. This project, Project Steam 77, started with about 25 members who pooled resources that built two different types of engines, boilers and controls, and kept running steam cars on the road since that time. Drawings are still available via the SACA storeroom. The most developed car is the Barrett steam sports car.
To get a new project off the ground, an initial team has to get a demonstration model built and running to a satisfactory level before you can start talking about it. In our case we had a VW floorpan test chassis running with two cylinders of a standard VW engine converted to run on steam using a standard type of Doble boiler with basic controls and a fixed output pressure atomising burner. Initial road tests were done with only 1 gal/hr output and this could sustain 30 mph on the back streets at full boiler pressure. We sold engine kits or fully converted engines to anyone who wanted them. In 1977 the 2 cylinder engine cost about $400 and the 4 cylinder engine cost about $750. We then developed a variable output spinning cup burner from an original design supplied by Doug Garner. The overall system has been developed progressively for about 38 years but none of the upgrades I have been investigating since 1980 have been included. It requires a steady stream of sponsorship money to keep a project alive, and the only person who was willing to keep moving ahead moved on to the greater steam workshop in the sky before the job was finished.
I agree there is enough previous design information available to make a respectable modern steam car but probably nothing that will excite Detroit or even the public at large. The acceptance level will depend on how many of the faults from old steamers you can eliminate. You need to lock up a small team and tell them to come up with something that looks like a finished product. A committee won't be able to do it - remember that a camel is a horse designed by a committee:-).
At the concept stage you will be luck to find 2 people anywhere who will agree on all the main aspects. You need something like a Value Management workshop to make sense of all the ideas available. At this stage we probably don't have enough performance and cost data to go through a proper evaluation so I would not be confident of being 100% right on a first attempt. Being close may be "good enough" at present.
Gas pump prices might have to go up a lot more before others will start taking alternate fuel power systems more seriously. If they wanted a solution tomorrow, we should have had R&D funding fully approved 5 to 10 years ago. Some German companies are well up on this but the rest are not. Lack of interest and the mistaken belief that cheap oil will be always available are putting the population down a deepening hole that will be expensive to get out of. At present world oil prices depend simply on the daily production rate from Saudi Arabia. You need to keep praying for these guys until something better is available. I think we have a problem.
Graeme</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: August 15, 2004 04:15PM
<HTML>We have more than a problem Graeme. We have ‘known’ since about 1950 that we would run out of oil by the middle of this century. Folks can bad mouth him all they want, but President Carter did initiate funding and research into alternatives to our addiction to petroleum. With the next administration, this funding was canceled. The level of short sightednes in corporations being more concerned about this quarters profits, than whether their children will end up living like peasants from the nineteenth century, never fails to amaze me.
As you say of the horse, decisions by committee never produce anything but compromised compromises. My guts says successful projects require a generalist at their head. Some one that has enough engineering to judge between various proposals, while also being able to balance the cost in time and materials of fabrication. Then the real skill of any generalist is to involve his inner group to the point, the business can run without him. I feel that is as much about creating a sense of community within an organization as anything else. When each individual feels personally involved and excited by the direction you are headed, the destination is a much easier journey.
Then, all of this has to looked at in the light of why are ‘we’ doing this? I think the right answer lies somewhere in the love of seeing a dream become reality. Even more so, if that dream is something that can benefit those that will follow where we have walked, after we are gone.
Garry</HTML>
As you say of the horse, decisions by committee never produce anything but compromised compromises. My guts says successful projects require a generalist at their head. Some one that has enough engineering to judge between various proposals, while also being able to balance the cost in time and materials of fabrication. Then the real skill of any generalist is to involve his inner group to the point, the business can run without him. I feel that is as much about creating a sense of community within an organization as anything else. When each individual feels personally involved and excited by the direction you are headed, the destination is a much easier journey.
Then, all of this has to looked at in the light of why are ‘we’ doing this? I think the right answer lies somewhere in the love of seeing a dream become reality. Even more so, if that dream is something that can benefit those that will follow where we have walked, after we are gone.
Garry</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Graeme Vagg (IP Logged)
Date: August 16, 2004 09:45AM
<HTML>Gary,
To get a project started, you would probably need to have an open forum brainstorming session as a special element of a major steam club meet. The first session is used to identify in two or three words only, each feature the new project must have and which are desirable, but not essential. These are simple statements like "carry passengers", "very quiet operation", "use anyfuel" and the like. The next session seeks to identify every way out method of achieving the wish list with no holds barred and every suggestion given equal merit. Later on each suggestion gets examined against the wish list and remains on the table until it is found to be impractical or unsatisfactory.
There are some important rules for running these sessions. One is that ideas have no rank or weighting and the proponent's status is neutral. The ideas from the tea lady are just as important as something suggested by an industry specialist or an investor. Another is that there is no mention of hardware items or specific solutions in the early stages. You also need about 20 individuals with a widely different background to get a good outcome - 19 steam engineers and one tea lady won't work. At a steam meet you would need some outside participants including one or two wives. Thus trying to do this on a limited scope forum such as this won't work either.
I am a long way from steam clubs now so rely on information and ideas I pick up from the general media, the public, motor shows, net discussion group comments and the like. I'm still trying to find out what sort of modern steam car people might like. I get the impression most don't have a clue, or if they have an idea, it is a well kept secret.
Graeme</HTML>
To get a project started, you would probably need to have an open forum brainstorming session as a special element of a major steam club meet. The first session is used to identify in two or three words only, each feature the new project must have and which are desirable, but not essential. These are simple statements like "carry passengers", "very quiet operation", "use anyfuel" and the like. The next session seeks to identify every way out method of achieving the wish list with no holds barred and every suggestion given equal merit. Later on each suggestion gets examined against the wish list and remains on the table until it is found to be impractical or unsatisfactory.
There are some important rules for running these sessions. One is that ideas have no rank or weighting and the proponent's status is neutral. The ideas from the tea lady are just as important as something suggested by an industry specialist or an investor. Another is that there is no mention of hardware items or specific solutions in the early stages. You also need about 20 individuals with a widely different background to get a good outcome - 19 steam engineers and one tea lady won't work. At a steam meet you would need some outside participants including one or two wives. Thus trying to do this on a limited scope forum such as this won't work either.
I am a long way from steam clubs now so rely on information and ideas I pick up from the general media, the public, motor shows, net discussion group comments and the like. I'm still trying to find out what sort of modern steam car people might like. I get the impression most don't have a clue, or if they have an idea, it is a well kept secret.
Graeme</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: August 16, 2004 03:50PM
<HTML>Graeme... Thank you for the insights.
I suspect I should have started another thread with my reply to your post concerning no one being interested in a modern steamer.
"It should be fun".... would be the first thing I would throw into the hat of an idea session. Sort of ah, if you are not enjoying what you are doing, why the heck are you doing it?
And for all of you that have been involved with "Project Steam 77", thank you as well. The development of that spinning cup burner was brilliant. Myself, I have an emotional attachment to the old direct drive reversible steam engine. Much more complicated to design and build than the VW conversion, there is still something for me that just feels right about it.
Perhaps, the most difficult thing to aim for in a modern design would trying to live up to the legends that grew up around steamers.
Garry
PS: As far as what other people want, what do you want? Trust your own feelings. What you find beautiful and desirable, many others will as well.</HTML>
I suspect I should have started another thread with my reply to your post concerning no one being interested in a modern steamer.
"It should be fun".... would be the first thing I would throw into the hat of an idea session. Sort of ah, if you are not enjoying what you are doing, why the heck are you doing it?
And for all of you that have been involved with "Project Steam 77", thank you as well. The development of that spinning cup burner was brilliant. Myself, I have an emotional attachment to the old direct drive reversible steam engine. Much more complicated to design and build than the VW conversion, there is still something for me that just feels right about it.
Perhaps, the most difficult thing to aim for in a modern design would trying to live up to the legends that grew up around steamers.
Garry
PS: As far as what other people want, what do you want? Trust your own feelings. What you find beautiful and desirable, many others will as well.</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Chuck Hays (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2004 02:38PM
<HTML>> PS: As far as what other people want, what do you want?
It seems to me that you'd have to take a page from the development of the modern hybrid gasoline/electric car, like the Honda Civic Hybrid or Toyota Prius. Electric cars and older hybrids (and let's face it: steam cars and early autos even up to the latter days of points and carbs) had the reputation of being occasionally cranky and needing a certain level of technological knowledge on the part of their operators. If you aren't able to understand and keep up with maintenance and lubrication schedules, the machine quit. Modern cars have self-adjusting ignition and fuel injection systems, long maintenance intervals, and it's not at all uncommon for a car to go 100K miles/160K kilometres before needing major maintenance.
Honda and Toyota (and now Ford) built hybrids that are "seamless" -- they don't require additional fiddling to operate. Just drive them. While there are some people like myself who like being in control of every process on the vehicle and are capable of keeping track of gauges and sight glasses, I think a vast majority of drivers want a vehicle that they can simply drive as a tool for moving them from one place to another. Simplicity sells.
My wife loves her Civic Hybrid. I believe it has no "soul" but concede that fuel economy of 60-80 mpg on a regular basis certainly makes taking a long drive cheap. I enjoy a higher level of fiddling than she does, and want different things from my vehicles. I'm decidedly in the minority among the observed sample of the population -- and that, I believe, constitutes the largest hurdle a modern steam car would have to face.
Chuck</HTML>
It seems to me that you'd have to take a page from the development of the modern hybrid gasoline/electric car, like the Honda Civic Hybrid or Toyota Prius. Electric cars and older hybrids (and let's face it: steam cars and early autos even up to the latter days of points and carbs) had the reputation of being occasionally cranky and needing a certain level of technological knowledge on the part of their operators. If you aren't able to understand and keep up with maintenance and lubrication schedules, the machine quit. Modern cars have self-adjusting ignition and fuel injection systems, long maintenance intervals, and it's not at all uncommon for a car to go 100K miles/160K kilometres before needing major maintenance.
Honda and Toyota (and now Ford) built hybrids that are "seamless" -- they don't require additional fiddling to operate. Just drive them. While there are some people like myself who like being in control of every process on the vehicle and are capable of keeping track of gauges and sight glasses, I think a vast majority of drivers want a vehicle that they can simply drive as a tool for moving them from one place to another. Simplicity sells.
My wife loves her Civic Hybrid. I believe it has no "soul" but concede that fuel economy of 60-80 mpg on a regular basis certainly makes taking a long drive cheap. I enjoy a higher level of fiddling than she does, and want different things from my vehicles. I'm decidedly in the minority among the observed sample of the population -- and that, I believe, constitutes the largest hurdle a modern steam car would have to face.
Chuck</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2004 05:39PM
<HTML>Chuck, your are right.
The general public is not going to put up with any car that is not as idiot proof as your wife’s Honda. This is why I think a best first effort is to aim for in steam is to develop a power plant kit for the home builder. There are more than a few of us out here that like to tinker and build things. As Graeme has found out, trying to figure out what it is folks that would like to own a steamer want is next to impossible. One is simply going to have to start out and say, this is what I am building. If you want to come along for the ride, you should join the effort. I think a best first target would be a vehicle that is not much more trouble to get under way than a mid fifties diesel car. Also, if it is not eventually possible to get the fuel economy up to at least eighteen to twenty miles to a US gallon in a three thousand pound car, this project could find itself another one off gathering dust in the back of some museum.
I know it is a dream, but with enough of these ‘unusual’ cars running up and down the highways, you could at least develop some public awareness steamers ever existed. I am continually amazed at the folks that have never heard of steam cars. And when they do, they assume they must have looked like locomotives on rubber tires. Who knows, some young person entering an engineering school just might decide to pay more attention to the subjects involving steam power, if they are aware steam is possibly a viable solution for road transportation.
Still ah pondering...
Garry</HTML>
The general public is not going to put up with any car that is not as idiot proof as your wife’s Honda. This is why I think a best first effort is to aim for in steam is to develop a power plant kit for the home builder. There are more than a few of us out here that like to tinker and build things. As Graeme has found out, trying to figure out what it is folks that would like to own a steamer want is next to impossible. One is simply going to have to start out and say, this is what I am building. If you want to come along for the ride, you should join the effort. I think a best first target would be a vehicle that is not much more trouble to get under way than a mid fifties diesel car. Also, if it is not eventually possible to get the fuel economy up to at least eighteen to twenty miles to a US gallon in a three thousand pound car, this project could find itself another one off gathering dust in the back of some museum.
I know it is a dream, but with enough of these ‘unusual’ cars running up and down the highways, you could at least develop some public awareness steamers ever existed. I am continually amazed at the folks that have never heard of steam cars. And when they do, they assume they must have looked like locomotives on rubber tires. Who knows, some young person entering an engineering school just might decide to pay more attention to the subjects involving steam power, if they are aware steam is possibly a viable solution for road transportation.
Still ah pondering...
Garry</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Caleb Ramsby (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2004 06:33PM
<HTML>Chuck,
I too am an advocate of a driver controled car. Not a computer controled nightmare.
I think that the modern car systems are MUCH harder to fiddle with and fix. The old systems, like carbs and points, could be fixed with a few hand tools and a mechanicaly minded person.
I have always worked on my own vehicles and will never stop. When my brother began a rather large project with his car(which was only a lower intake manifold gasket change, quoted at $1,600 from all shops, it took him and I around 35 to 40 hours to do), late 90's, it was a nightmare. His project came up at his job and many people said that they would LOVE to be able to work on their car. However, with computer sensors all over telling you that one thing MIGHT be wrong and the sensor that is sensing what is wrong could be wrong, it is all nuts. Not to mention the need for a very long armed midget to even get to the nuts and bolts.
Look, although the percentage of people that would take the time to actually know how their conveyance operates, and be willing to fix it and maintain it themselves is small, mabey 25% to 5% depending on region, with over SIX BILLION people in the world and around 300,000,000 in America that "small" percentage is a whole lot of people. Not to mention that after studying steam power a mechanic would be able to fix a well designed steamer in a much short time than a modern car. If the computers are working right(good luck) the mechanic can find the problem rather fast but replacing the part even takes them forever.
Look around the web for sites where people are asking questions about how to fix a part of their conveyance. There are a lot of willing people out there, seaching for an option to a modern day nightmare car.
There are cars now that if you cut the wires to the cigar lighter the engine won't start! ! ! Talk about nightmare!
To me the most important things for a conveyances system are, durability, longevity of operation, flexibility of aplication, simplicity of design and the ability to actually get to and fix the parts.
My idea for a system is a combination of all of these things.
The steam generator would be of the LaMont style, with a rectangular firebox surounded with the evaporator tubes, having a sheet metal shell between the tube and the fire where the fire would impinge on the tubes and open where it wouldn't. The exhaust gases would then go into another rectangular housing where it would meet the forced circulation tube again, with the superheater mixed in the radiant and convection section to give a consistant superheat. A economizer would be the end of the exhaust gas line.
Two seperator drums, one for water level and steam and the other for just steam(smaller) or a very good seperator that wouldn't allow water to make it to the steam outlet would hold the reserve water and steam. I think that the dual drum system would be required for off road vehicles. Water level would be controled by an independant direct acting Waterman type pump, with a small line coming from the water standpipe at the desired water lever with a needle valve to shutoff and control the rate of pump action for tuning or modification.
There would be an auxiliary engine which would be a single piston double acting type with a mechanical brake system to stop the crank off of center and a centrifugal type governer with moveable weights via a lever or hand wheel. This would allow one to control the speed of the auxiliary engine from the cab, from say 60 to 300 rpm. There would be a single acting plunger fuel pump, two stage single acting air pump or double acting, electric generator, provision for A/C pump attachment as with power steering and power brakes and the circulation pump for the boiler. The A/C pump, generator and circulation pump would all be geared to a higher speed than the crank.
The circulation pump would use an electric motor for firing up. There would be a sliding spline which would disengage the circulation pump from the auxiliary engine and engage it with the small electric motor on the other side. If desperate one could also fire up the boiler with a very low fire and not use the circulation pump, this of course would depend on how well the water flowed with natural circulation in the forced circulation tubes.
There would be a tank for the compressed air of adequate size and an accumulator of the baffle type for the fuel.
The burner system would be very simple and reliable. An air accelerator would use the compressed air to produce the air flow into the boiler, the air would be shot into a venturi attached to the boiler housing for an increased air flow for a given compressed air usage. The accelerator and venturi would be encased in a tube extending to an adequate place to for combustion air feeding. The fuel would be pumped into a ring of holes through the accelerator body and become atomized and mixed to a good extent. The air and fuel would strike a cone shape of steel upon entering the end of the boiler casing, then be straightened by a coresponding bell shape. The cone and bell would be rather close to each other. These would heat up very rapidly and vaporize the fuel on contact.
The fire would be an on/off type control via a diaphram with live steam, this would open and close the air and fuel lines going to the burner assembly.
With the pilot off and no steam, one would first move the lever to engage the circulation pump to the electric motor and turn it on, then pull a lever which would open the fuel and air line while at the same moment, it would use a small chain pulled be a grab hook, wraped around two small gears one of which spins a flint type of sparker, to start the fire. The sparker would be placed to throw it's sparks at the point of the cone. Thus ignition!
The pilot would be on a moving lever assembly which would allow it to be moved into the stream of the flame in the boiler and then back out of the way. A lever in the cab would move it into the path of the flame for heating the evaporation coil(a vaporizing pilot). When it was hot one would turn the hand wheel in the cab to allow fuel to go to the pilot(this would be used off of the main tank if proper fuel is used or a secondary tank such as the Stanleys). Then pull the pilot back into it's hiding place, from where it would throw it's flame at the point of the cone and ignite the main burner during operation. The evaporator coil of the pilot would be a wound coil above the single nozzle for the vaporized fuel. There would be a nicrome wire above the nozzle and bellow the coil to help keep the flame going. The coil would be very easy to detach with flared ends and having two or three of these with the exteras soaking in kerosene or such to clean them would allow for fast replacement.
The size of the fire would be controled by yet another lever assembly in the cab, this would move a needle valve in both the air and fuel line going to the burner. One handle to move both valves, this would allow for a small fire or a large one. At high altitudes, one would simply change the position of one valve to the other, with sliding bolted attachments to the main lever. Thus changing the air/fuel ratio.
The reason for the ability to change the speed of the auxiliary engine from the cab would be that at the engines low speed 60 rpm, the fuel pump, air pump and circulation pump would be designed to provide enough fuel and air for around 10 to 40 continues horsepower, with the proper recirculaation rate. This would be for stop and go in town traffic, the reserve steam would allow for the horsepower needed for acceleration and since staying at 30 to 45 mph takes hardly any horsepower one could use a very low flame level. Inceasing the speed of the auxiliary engine would increase the amount of air, fuel supplied and the rate of circulaition. Note that the dynamics of the pumps would not always be in proportion and allowances would be required in the design and proportion for the pumps for the min and max output rates and speeds. So if you have a trailer and come to a big long hill, just adjust the speed of the auxiliary engine for the proper power supply and push the burner lever ahead for a bigger fire. The air pump and fuel pump would use automatic bypass valves to maintain a consistant pressure in the tanks. The air tank would be of a rather high pressure so that one would have enough air for firing up from cold.
The reserve of the standpipe would allow for any immediate and short need for power without needing the system to be adjusted.
The engine should be directly connected to the differential. With a sliding spline engaging and disengaging the gear on the crank from the crank.
Independent suspension would be great and it would keep the engine out of the way.
Two cylinder double acting counterflow engines with the Stephenson or Joy valve gears are the minimum required for a prime mover and can be of simple construction. With an eight rod frame and a built up crank the engine could use sealed ball, roller and needle bearings at all points including mains. The crosshead would be the only one with oil or grease required. I think grease with a grease cup which is operated by a ratchet from the crosshead would give one adequate lubrication of the crossheads.
The cutoff would be controled by a hand lever which would lock at either set points such as a marine engine or with a curved rack and a gear with a spring loaded vertical sliding locking bar which would be pulled up with a hand grasp on the end of the lever and let down by letting go of the hand grasp at the desired point of cutoff. The latter would give one a more finite control of cutoff.
During 95% of the vehicles operation the only controls that would reguire manipulation would be the throttle, brake and cutoff. The cutoff only being used during stop and go and times when higher power are wanted.
For four wheel drive, two engines, one on the front axle and one on the rear, both of about half size of a two wheel drive system would work great. It would also give one greater economy while running only one engine, such as on the interstate and the ability to double the power and traction with the second engine. A spline disengagement would be required to keep the unused engine from spinning.
Leave the boiler on all of the time, via pilot. If one garages their car, the addition in the garage of a venting tube that can connect the exhaust from the boiler to the out of doors is a very simple and effective thing.
To me some of those who would benefit the most from such a system would be delivery and maintance people. Their profession is in their vehicle and they often need to drive it stop and go tens to hundreds of times a day. I.C. engines don't like being turned on ran hard and then turned off all day long. With enough mass in the engine and proper insulation along with a live steam block heater system that maintains a good temperature in the block. The steam engine could be ready at all times for severe operation.
For real production in a car, using a modern chasis is going to demand too many conpromises.
Teaming up with some kit car body makers, a few frame makers and some machine shops for the engine, differential and boiler systems would make a real good product.
For imediate use and testing, a big buggy frame with the steam system installed would be an excellent test vehicle.
One aspect of the steam system that I believe to be often ignored is the longevity of which it operates nearly as well as new. Take a 10 year old I.C. car and run it on a dyno with a exhaust gas analysis and compare it with what it did when new. It won't be very good. In areas where the vehicles are tested every year to check for good emissions standards there is usually a rush to get the car in the right shape. With a design such as mine there isn't much that would be able to effect the operation of the flame. Except for improper adjustment of the proportion of the air and fuel valves.
Good grief, I have to stop. I know that I am leaving out a lot of details, but, good grief.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
I too am an advocate of a driver controled car. Not a computer controled nightmare.
I think that the modern car systems are MUCH harder to fiddle with and fix. The old systems, like carbs and points, could be fixed with a few hand tools and a mechanicaly minded person.
I have always worked on my own vehicles and will never stop. When my brother began a rather large project with his car(which was only a lower intake manifold gasket change, quoted at $1,600 from all shops, it took him and I around 35 to 40 hours to do), late 90's, it was a nightmare. His project came up at his job and many people said that they would LOVE to be able to work on their car. However, with computer sensors all over telling you that one thing MIGHT be wrong and the sensor that is sensing what is wrong could be wrong, it is all nuts. Not to mention the need for a very long armed midget to even get to the nuts and bolts.
Look, although the percentage of people that would take the time to actually know how their conveyance operates, and be willing to fix it and maintain it themselves is small, mabey 25% to 5% depending on region, with over SIX BILLION people in the world and around 300,000,000 in America that "small" percentage is a whole lot of people. Not to mention that after studying steam power a mechanic would be able to fix a well designed steamer in a much short time than a modern car. If the computers are working right(good luck) the mechanic can find the problem rather fast but replacing the part even takes them forever.
Look around the web for sites where people are asking questions about how to fix a part of their conveyance. There are a lot of willing people out there, seaching for an option to a modern day nightmare car.
There are cars now that if you cut the wires to the cigar lighter the engine won't start! ! ! Talk about nightmare!
To me the most important things for a conveyances system are, durability, longevity of operation, flexibility of aplication, simplicity of design and the ability to actually get to and fix the parts.
My idea for a system is a combination of all of these things.
The steam generator would be of the LaMont style, with a rectangular firebox surounded with the evaporator tubes, having a sheet metal shell between the tube and the fire where the fire would impinge on the tubes and open where it wouldn't. The exhaust gases would then go into another rectangular housing where it would meet the forced circulation tube again, with the superheater mixed in the radiant and convection section to give a consistant superheat. A economizer would be the end of the exhaust gas line.
Two seperator drums, one for water level and steam and the other for just steam(smaller) or a very good seperator that wouldn't allow water to make it to the steam outlet would hold the reserve water and steam. I think that the dual drum system would be required for off road vehicles. Water level would be controled by an independant direct acting Waterman type pump, with a small line coming from the water standpipe at the desired water lever with a needle valve to shutoff and control the rate of pump action for tuning or modification.
There would be an auxiliary engine which would be a single piston double acting type with a mechanical brake system to stop the crank off of center and a centrifugal type governer with moveable weights via a lever or hand wheel. This would allow one to control the speed of the auxiliary engine from the cab, from say 60 to 300 rpm. There would be a single acting plunger fuel pump, two stage single acting air pump or double acting, electric generator, provision for A/C pump attachment as with power steering and power brakes and the circulation pump for the boiler. The A/C pump, generator and circulation pump would all be geared to a higher speed than the crank.
The circulation pump would use an electric motor for firing up. There would be a sliding spline which would disengage the circulation pump from the auxiliary engine and engage it with the small electric motor on the other side. If desperate one could also fire up the boiler with a very low fire and not use the circulation pump, this of course would depend on how well the water flowed with natural circulation in the forced circulation tubes.
There would be a tank for the compressed air of adequate size and an accumulator of the baffle type for the fuel.
The burner system would be very simple and reliable. An air accelerator would use the compressed air to produce the air flow into the boiler, the air would be shot into a venturi attached to the boiler housing for an increased air flow for a given compressed air usage. The accelerator and venturi would be encased in a tube extending to an adequate place to for combustion air feeding. The fuel would be pumped into a ring of holes through the accelerator body and become atomized and mixed to a good extent. The air and fuel would strike a cone shape of steel upon entering the end of the boiler casing, then be straightened by a coresponding bell shape. The cone and bell would be rather close to each other. These would heat up very rapidly and vaporize the fuel on contact.
The fire would be an on/off type control via a diaphram with live steam, this would open and close the air and fuel lines going to the burner assembly.
With the pilot off and no steam, one would first move the lever to engage the circulation pump to the electric motor and turn it on, then pull a lever which would open the fuel and air line while at the same moment, it would use a small chain pulled be a grab hook, wraped around two small gears one of which spins a flint type of sparker, to start the fire. The sparker would be placed to throw it's sparks at the point of the cone. Thus ignition!
The pilot would be on a moving lever assembly which would allow it to be moved into the stream of the flame in the boiler and then back out of the way. A lever in the cab would move it into the path of the flame for heating the evaporation coil(a vaporizing pilot). When it was hot one would turn the hand wheel in the cab to allow fuel to go to the pilot(this would be used off of the main tank if proper fuel is used or a secondary tank such as the Stanleys). Then pull the pilot back into it's hiding place, from where it would throw it's flame at the point of the cone and ignite the main burner during operation. The evaporator coil of the pilot would be a wound coil above the single nozzle for the vaporized fuel. There would be a nicrome wire above the nozzle and bellow the coil to help keep the flame going. The coil would be very easy to detach with flared ends and having two or three of these with the exteras soaking in kerosene or such to clean them would allow for fast replacement.
The size of the fire would be controled by yet another lever assembly in the cab, this would move a needle valve in both the air and fuel line going to the burner. One handle to move both valves, this would allow for a small fire or a large one. At high altitudes, one would simply change the position of one valve to the other, with sliding bolted attachments to the main lever. Thus changing the air/fuel ratio.
The reason for the ability to change the speed of the auxiliary engine from the cab would be that at the engines low speed 60 rpm, the fuel pump, air pump and circulation pump would be designed to provide enough fuel and air for around 10 to 40 continues horsepower, with the proper recirculaation rate. This would be for stop and go in town traffic, the reserve steam would allow for the horsepower needed for acceleration and since staying at 30 to 45 mph takes hardly any horsepower one could use a very low flame level. Inceasing the speed of the auxiliary engine would increase the amount of air, fuel supplied and the rate of circulaition. Note that the dynamics of the pumps would not always be in proportion and allowances would be required in the design and proportion for the pumps for the min and max output rates and speeds. So if you have a trailer and come to a big long hill, just adjust the speed of the auxiliary engine for the proper power supply and push the burner lever ahead for a bigger fire. The air pump and fuel pump would use automatic bypass valves to maintain a consistant pressure in the tanks. The air tank would be of a rather high pressure so that one would have enough air for firing up from cold.
The reserve of the standpipe would allow for any immediate and short need for power without needing the system to be adjusted.
The engine should be directly connected to the differential. With a sliding spline engaging and disengaging the gear on the crank from the crank.
Independent suspension would be great and it would keep the engine out of the way.
Two cylinder double acting counterflow engines with the Stephenson or Joy valve gears are the minimum required for a prime mover and can be of simple construction. With an eight rod frame and a built up crank the engine could use sealed ball, roller and needle bearings at all points including mains. The crosshead would be the only one with oil or grease required. I think grease with a grease cup which is operated by a ratchet from the crosshead would give one adequate lubrication of the crossheads.
The cutoff would be controled by a hand lever which would lock at either set points such as a marine engine or with a curved rack and a gear with a spring loaded vertical sliding locking bar which would be pulled up with a hand grasp on the end of the lever and let down by letting go of the hand grasp at the desired point of cutoff. The latter would give one a more finite control of cutoff.
During 95% of the vehicles operation the only controls that would reguire manipulation would be the throttle, brake and cutoff. The cutoff only being used during stop and go and times when higher power are wanted.
For four wheel drive, two engines, one on the front axle and one on the rear, both of about half size of a two wheel drive system would work great. It would also give one greater economy while running only one engine, such as on the interstate and the ability to double the power and traction with the second engine. A spline disengagement would be required to keep the unused engine from spinning.
Leave the boiler on all of the time, via pilot. If one garages their car, the addition in the garage of a venting tube that can connect the exhaust from the boiler to the out of doors is a very simple and effective thing.
To me some of those who would benefit the most from such a system would be delivery and maintance people. Their profession is in their vehicle and they often need to drive it stop and go tens to hundreds of times a day. I.C. engines don't like being turned on ran hard and then turned off all day long. With enough mass in the engine and proper insulation along with a live steam block heater system that maintains a good temperature in the block. The steam engine could be ready at all times for severe operation.
For real production in a car, using a modern chasis is going to demand too many conpromises.
Teaming up with some kit car body makers, a few frame makers and some machine shops for the engine, differential and boiler systems would make a real good product.
For imediate use and testing, a big buggy frame with the steam system installed would be an excellent test vehicle.
One aspect of the steam system that I believe to be often ignored is the longevity of which it operates nearly as well as new. Take a 10 year old I.C. car and run it on a dyno with a exhaust gas analysis and compare it with what it did when new. It won't be very good. In areas where the vehicles are tested every year to check for good emissions standards there is usually a rush to get the car in the right shape. With a design such as mine there isn't much that would be able to effect the operation of the flame. Except for improper adjustment of the proportion of the air and fuel valves.
Good grief, I have to stop. I know that I am leaving out a lot of details, but, good grief.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Chuck Hays (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2004 08:11PM
<HTML>> think a best first effort is to aim for in steam is to
> develop a power plant kit for the home builder.
Precisely the thought that struck me this afternoon. *I* am comfortable with a vehicle that requires a little foundational knowledge of mechanics to operate. I'm also comfortable fairly deep in an engine, and experience tells me that I can generally depend on my skills when things go agley out in the ginseng. I ride an old Harley and I know it inside and out pretty well. I drove an old diesel for years that required more "fiddling" than modern cars. Neither one is the fastest or most beautiful thing on the road, but I usually arrive at my destination in good order and count myself to have had a pleasant trip.
It's entirely likely that a steam vehicle at the present state of development cannot deliver what Joe/Jane Average is looking for in their transporter. As others have suggested, I also believe it would be a mistake to attempt catering to that audience. I was highly entertained to realize after reading Thomas Derr's "The Modern Steam Car and its background" (Lindsay reprint) that things like automatic transmissions and fuel injection and sophisticated intake systems are essentially latter-day attempts to make gasoline cars act like the "single lever" control of a steam car.
If there is to be a change, it must come first from the folks who have the skills and the drive to be on the forefront of the technology. Whether it's riding a steam-powered motorcycle around town on the weekend, converting an old car or pickup to steam, building up a kit or replica of an old Stanley, or making a steam launch and putting it on the river for a cruise, it is at first going to have to be the province of the tinkerer and shadetree engineer. If sufficient numbers of people begin looking for ways to integrate diverse strategies into their "transportation portfolio" there may be enough demand to support a small company making some robust little engines and offering relatively inexpensive plans for various applications.
I put myself into that second category. I can rebuild a Harley engine with my eyes closed, but at the same time I know my limits. There are things beyond my rather basic skills set -- I learnt how to run a lathe in a rudimentary fashion, I have some atrophied welding and brazing skills, I have done foundry and casting work in aluminum and brass, and I can "think mechanically" -- and I know that if I want an acceptable result there are some things I should leave to the experts. I would love to find a set of plans for taking some shelf parts and a steam engine and boiler setup and putting all of it together into a motorcycle fueled by propane that I could tool around on. To start with a billet of steel or with a casting form for an aluminum cylinder block and make all the parts with my own hands is beyond my present skills.
So I guess all that was a rather long-winded way of saying that I agree: if there were a nice little kit (or several, such as a boiler, condenser, engine, and various ideas for using same) that I would be inclined to tinker with that and create a steam vehicle that would generate some interest. There is no one solution to problems of energy. The best that can be suggested is to diversify -- steam, electric, diesel, gasoline, alcohol, propane -- all are of some benefit, some of them overlap, but all things considered they open up options and niche markets where people can take some personal ownership of their choices.
Chuck</HTML>
> develop a power plant kit for the home builder.
Precisely the thought that struck me this afternoon. *I* am comfortable with a vehicle that requires a little foundational knowledge of mechanics to operate. I'm also comfortable fairly deep in an engine, and experience tells me that I can generally depend on my skills when things go agley out in the ginseng. I ride an old Harley and I know it inside and out pretty well. I drove an old diesel for years that required more "fiddling" than modern cars. Neither one is the fastest or most beautiful thing on the road, but I usually arrive at my destination in good order and count myself to have had a pleasant trip.
It's entirely likely that a steam vehicle at the present state of development cannot deliver what Joe/Jane Average is looking for in their transporter. As others have suggested, I also believe it would be a mistake to attempt catering to that audience. I was highly entertained to realize after reading Thomas Derr's "The Modern Steam Car and its background" (Lindsay reprint) that things like automatic transmissions and fuel injection and sophisticated intake systems are essentially latter-day attempts to make gasoline cars act like the "single lever" control of a steam car.
If there is to be a change, it must come first from the folks who have the skills and the drive to be on the forefront of the technology. Whether it's riding a steam-powered motorcycle around town on the weekend, converting an old car or pickup to steam, building up a kit or replica of an old Stanley, or making a steam launch and putting it on the river for a cruise, it is at first going to have to be the province of the tinkerer and shadetree engineer. If sufficient numbers of people begin looking for ways to integrate diverse strategies into their "transportation portfolio" there may be enough demand to support a small company making some robust little engines and offering relatively inexpensive plans for various applications.
I put myself into that second category. I can rebuild a Harley engine with my eyes closed, but at the same time I know my limits. There are things beyond my rather basic skills set -- I learnt how to run a lathe in a rudimentary fashion, I have some atrophied welding and brazing skills, I have done foundry and casting work in aluminum and brass, and I can "think mechanically" -- and I know that if I want an acceptable result there are some things I should leave to the experts. I would love to find a set of plans for taking some shelf parts and a steam engine and boiler setup and putting all of it together into a motorcycle fueled by propane that I could tool around on. To start with a billet of steel or with a casting form for an aluminum cylinder block and make all the parts with my own hands is beyond my present skills.
So I guess all that was a rather long-winded way of saying that I agree: if there were a nice little kit (or several, such as a boiler, condenser, engine, and various ideas for using same) that I would be inclined to tinker with that and create a steam vehicle that would generate some interest. There is no one solution to problems of energy. The best that can be suggested is to diversify -- steam, electric, diesel, gasoline, alcohol, propane -- all are of some benefit, some of them overlap, but all things considered they open up options and niche markets where people can take some personal ownership of their choices.
Chuck</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2004 08:46PM
<HTML>Wow Caleb.
I didn't read all of your post yet. But it isn't the computer that makes modern cars hard to work on. The problem you site with computers in cars are due a closed system that you can only get into with special equipment. And then only to a limited extent as most are sealed in plastic. Even mechinics don't have the equipment to tinker with the control computers. They basicly can only get diagostic info from them. I think the real reasion for the closed system is to keep you from tinkering with it. Though dust and moisture are good reasion as well. I could probably build a replacement computer for a modern car from off the shelf components. There are several single board computers that could be used with throttle body injection. Probably some with enough PWMs to do multiport but I haven't been looking. I only need a few PWMs for my boiler control. But I doubt it would be anyweres near as relayable with out the packaging used by the manufacture. And the cost would be higher.
The second problem is space limitations. Modern cars are designed to be arodynamic efficient. They are a lot smaller over all. But that happened before computers came into wide use. I had to take the finder off my 72 Camero to change a heater hose. Car size has put a big contrant on the space available for power components. Front wheel drive adds to the packaging problem. There simply is very little space to put the power components. I heard all the same complants when smog controle were first put on cars. The vacum circuits were to complicated for most tinkers.
Some of the problems that yoiu run into with mechanical controls are the non linerarity needed. Feed back is used to keep every tracking but the response times limit what can be done. It takes seconds for temerature. Mechanical pressures are probably good enough. But as you reduce boiler size and reduce it's reserve capacity you need faster and faster controls. Because of the nonlineraty you can not use antipicating control. For example the steam generation rate needs to go up in proportion with the cube of the speed assuming that torque is in direct proportion to steam rate. Which it is not.
I think there are a small percentage like you that are willing to put up with constant adjusting things while driving. Or that even could do so safely. Some people have a hard time changing radio stations while driving.
All this just proves that though we womt a steam car. We can not agree on what it should be. Just as in IC cars there are a lot of types and people to buy every type. Some like trucks. Some motocycles. Others wont fast sport cars. (Thats me) Some wont economy.
I think there are several nitch markets for a modern steamer. We could target delivery vehicals were econimy is important. UPS trucks. Play vehicals like dune buggies. Exotic cars.
I think Exotic cars are one of the best. They are small run productions. The steamer has great acceleration. The mid-engine exocitic cars have lots of room for power plants. The are lots of kit car rebodies to use and some with frames. And they get the most plubic attention. Just think what it would be like to drive up in a Lamborghini steamer. To get the speed efficiency is important in order to keep the boiler and condensor size down. If it can be done it would go a long at proving the steamer as a viable vehical.
How about steam sprint cars. We might get a dvision to race them if we had enough racers. That would be a lot of fun.
Andy</HTML>
I didn't read all of your post yet. But it isn't the computer that makes modern cars hard to work on. The problem you site with computers in cars are due a closed system that you can only get into with special equipment. And then only to a limited extent as most are sealed in plastic. Even mechinics don't have the equipment to tinker with the control computers. They basicly can only get diagostic info from them. I think the real reasion for the closed system is to keep you from tinkering with it. Though dust and moisture are good reasion as well. I could probably build a replacement computer for a modern car from off the shelf components. There are several single board computers that could be used with throttle body injection. Probably some with enough PWMs to do multiport but I haven't been looking. I only need a few PWMs for my boiler control. But I doubt it would be anyweres near as relayable with out the packaging used by the manufacture. And the cost would be higher.
The second problem is space limitations. Modern cars are designed to be arodynamic efficient. They are a lot smaller over all. But that happened before computers came into wide use. I had to take the finder off my 72 Camero to change a heater hose. Car size has put a big contrant on the space available for power components. Front wheel drive adds to the packaging problem. There simply is very little space to put the power components. I heard all the same complants when smog controle were first put on cars. The vacum circuits were to complicated for most tinkers.
Some of the problems that yoiu run into with mechanical controls are the non linerarity needed. Feed back is used to keep every tracking but the response times limit what can be done. It takes seconds for temerature. Mechanical pressures are probably good enough. But as you reduce boiler size and reduce it's reserve capacity you need faster and faster controls. Because of the nonlineraty you can not use antipicating control. For example the steam generation rate needs to go up in proportion with the cube of the speed assuming that torque is in direct proportion to steam rate. Which it is not.
I think there are a small percentage like you that are willing to put up with constant adjusting things while driving. Or that even could do so safely. Some people have a hard time changing radio stations while driving.
All this just proves that though we womt a steam car. We can not agree on what it should be. Just as in IC cars there are a lot of types and people to buy every type. Some like trucks. Some motocycles. Others wont fast sport cars. (Thats me) Some wont economy.
I think there are several nitch markets for a modern steamer. We could target delivery vehicals were econimy is important. UPS trucks. Play vehicals like dune buggies. Exotic cars.
I think Exotic cars are one of the best. They are small run productions. The steamer has great acceleration. The mid-engine exocitic cars have lots of room for power plants. The are lots of kit car rebodies to use and some with frames. And they get the most plubic attention. Just think what it would be like to drive up in a Lamborghini steamer. To get the speed efficiency is important in order to keep the boiler and condensor size down. If it can be done it would go a long at proving the steamer as a viable vehical.
How about steam sprint cars. We might get a dvision to race them if we had enough racers. That would be a lot of fun.
Andy</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Graeme Vagg (IP Logged)
Date: August 20, 2004 05:24PM
<HTML>Andy,
You have raised a large number of good issues here and they are worth comment to assist individuals who have completed their preliminary research and are firming up on their personal modern steam car needs.
Computer Controls. I agree that ICE engine computers are driving us all nuts. I have had faults in current cars that the service shop cannot fix because the computer diagnostic check says everything is OK. With older cars I am able to phone a good mechanic and he can tell me what the problem is likely to be and how it is fixed, if it needs to be fixed right away or not and the effect on the vehicle if not fixed. Some modern designs may need a computer system to allow them to work correctly. These will be in the same category as a modern ICE vehicle. I will be using alternate designs that do not need a computer, just normal driver input for throttle control (foot pedal with optional hand control) and gear/power level selection (hand control equivalent to gear box control on current cars).
Space Limitations. Front wheel drive cars with short hoods are going to be a pain for steam developers. If you like a particular body shape, measure up the engine bay space first before getting excited about a steam project. At present I will look at any vehicle designed to take any in-line 6 or a V8 engine. Mid engined vehicles with water cooled engines should be good candidates. Do yourself a favour and provide reasonable space around steam components so any maintenance access is easy. There are millions of donor vehicles available and you only need one of them.
Mechanical Controls. Any design has to live with the limitations of sensors and the characteristics of the components. A good new boiler will not have a superheater control circuit for instance but just give superheated steam in a predictable temperature range.
Driving Adjustments. My limited steam driving experience shows you cannot drive a car safely if you have to fiddle with any steam controls when moving. Any adjustments would need to be Non-Essential and for fine tuning only to cater for extreme changes in driving pattern (such as changing the superheat temperature for better economy) or changing the burner output for very heavy or light duty. Preferably any adjustments should have fixed selector settings so you only need to move a switch on or off, or move a knob one click at a time. You need to be able to find the control knobs or switches without taking your eyes off the road. At 60 mph on the road you are going 88 feet per second - thats a lot of car lengths.
Steam Vehicle Requirements. Your personal requirements are the only ones that matter. At present there is no modern steam vehicle market or products to buy. A market may be created if someone else likes exactly what you have built and is willing to pay for a copy of it. Once a good practical power pack is available, there will be plenty of vehicles that could use it. Don't worry about them at this stage.
Kit Cars. There is a whole industry already making substitute bodies or modification panels for existing cars - you can get just about any look you want. You can spend a lot of money on kits, or save a lot by buying a used kit car - saving even more if a project is incomplete. For those who love to build things, I would highly recommend a kit car steam project. The Barrett Steamer uses a Fiberfab Jamacian body shell on a VW beetle chassis. This body looks like the popular Datsun 240Z. To minimise cost, just get hold of any petrol engined vehicle a few years old and plan for a replacement steam power pack.
Competition Vehicles. We need to avoid head-to-head competition with high powered petrol engined race cars at this stage because a steamer will take a hiding due to its lack of sustained high power endurance. Steam cars should compete in their own class only. Short hill climb events may be one opportunity where a new steamer could be competitive with anything that could be built. I visited a local hill climb circuit to see who uses it and found many competitors use family cars with only tyres changed for the day. There were lots of small car classes and go carts entered as well. The short circuit only took about 45 to 50 seconds to complete and you got about 3 runs. Drivers advised it was the cheapest form of competition. With only one car running at a time, it was also safe motoring. I understand some steamers still go to the famous Mount Washington hill climb event. Around 1905, steamers did well in open competition on hill climb circuits.
All the best with personal (steam) objectives.
Graeme</HTML>
You have raised a large number of good issues here and they are worth comment to assist individuals who have completed their preliminary research and are firming up on their personal modern steam car needs.
Computer Controls. I agree that ICE engine computers are driving us all nuts. I have had faults in current cars that the service shop cannot fix because the computer diagnostic check says everything is OK. With older cars I am able to phone a good mechanic and he can tell me what the problem is likely to be and how it is fixed, if it needs to be fixed right away or not and the effect on the vehicle if not fixed. Some modern designs may need a computer system to allow them to work correctly. These will be in the same category as a modern ICE vehicle. I will be using alternate designs that do not need a computer, just normal driver input for throttle control (foot pedal with optional hand control) and gear/power level selection (hand control equivalent to gear box control on current cars).
Space Limitations. Front wheel drive cars with short hoods are going to be a pain for steam developers. If you like a particular body shape, measure up the engine bay space first before getting excited about a steam project. At present I will look at any vehicle designed to take any in-line 6 or a V8 engine. Mid engined vehicles with water cooled engines should be good candidates. Do yourself a favour and provide reasonable space around steam components so any maintenance access is easy. There are millions of donor vehicles available and you only need one of them.
Mechanical Controls. Any design has to live with the limitations of sensors and the characteristics of the components. A good new boiler will not have a superheater control circuit for instance but just give superheated steam in a predictable temperature range.
Driving Adjustments. My limited steam driving experience shows you cannot drive a car safely if you have to fiddle with any steam controls when moving. Any adjustments would need to be Non-Essential and for fine tuning only to cater for extreme changes in driving pattern (such as changing the superheat temperature for better economy) or changing the burner output for very heavy or light duty. Preferably any adjustments should have fixed selector settings so you only need to move a switch on or off, or move a knob one click at a time. You need to be able to find the control knobs or switches without taking your eyes off the road. At 60 mph on the road you are going 88 feet per second - thats a lot of car lengths.
Steam Vehicle Requirements. Your personal requirements are the only ones that matter. At present there is no modern steam vehicle market or products to buy. A market may be created if someone else likes exactly what you have built and is willing to pay for a copy of it. Once a good practical power pack is available, there will be plenty of vehicles that could use it. Don't worry about them at this stage.
Kit Cars. There is a whole industry already making substitute bodies or modification panels for existing cars - you can get just about any look you want. You can spend a lot of money on kits, or save a lot by buying a used kit car - saving even more if a project is incomplete. For those who love to build things, I would highly recommend a kit car steam project. The Barrett Steamer uses a Fiberfab Jamacian body shell on a VW beetle chassis. This body looks like the popular Datsun 240Z. To minimise cost, just get hold of any petrol engined vehicle a few years old and plan for a replacement steam power pack.
Competition Vehicles. We need to avoid head-to-head competition with high powered petrol engined race cars at this stage because a steamer will take a hiding due to its lack of sustained high power endurance. Steam cars should compete in their own class only. Short hill climb events may be one opportunity where a new steamer could be competitive with anything that could be built. I visited a local hill climb circuit to see who uses it and found many competitors use family cars with only tyres changed for the day. There were lots of small car classes and go carts entered as well. The short circuit only took about 45 to 50 seconds to complete and you got about 3 runs. Drivers advised it was the cheapest form of competition. With only one car running at a time, it was also safe motoring. I understand some steamers still go to the famous Mount Washington hill climb event. Around 1905, steamers did well in open competition on hill climb circuits.
All the best with personal (steam) objectives.
Graeme</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: August 20, 2004 08:10PM
<HTML>HI Graeme
I agree with alll you have said. My thought in a steam sprint car was for it's own class. But as a start exibition runs would create an interest. The fastest class of sprint cars hit around 100 MPH tops on a quater mile track.
Sprint cars racing is a lot of fun. And there are low power classes that are not to expensive to get into. Even a gokart would be a lot of fun. Bill Ryan's kart sure looks like a lot of fun.
It's the fun aspect that I think would help move interest along. We need something fun and not to costly. Compitition is good for improvments.
A sprint car is just a big go kart. Tube frame and some flat body panels.
Caleb. There are a new bread of tinkers hopping up "Rice Burners" by reprogramming their chips. They just reciently got recognized as a drag racing class.
I think it is a normal human tendency to resist change. Yet we wont the latest greatest widget. But only if it's not radical a change. The new generation who have grown up with computers are just as at home tinkering them as older are with machanics. My father always said he liked a horse and buggy better then a car. For one thing the horse could find it's way home on it's own. I am 57 but have been into computers for over 40 years.
In a way I think a modern steamer is being hit from both directions. It would be a radical change. And at the same time it's antique tek.
The more I think about it. A gokart just might be the thing. I know if it were resionably priced I would get one. Wallmart has a 5HP gokart for around $500.00. A steamer version would have to about the same price.
Andy</HTML>
I agree with alll you have said. My thought in a steam sprint car was for it's own class. But as a start exibition runs would create an interest. The fastest class of sprint cars hit around 100 MPH tops on a quater mile track.
Sprint cars racing is a lot of fun. And there are low power classes that are not to expensive to get into. Even a gokart would be a lot of fun. Bill Ryan's kart sure looks like a lot of fun.
It's the fun aspect that I think would help move interest along. We need something fun and not to costly. Compitition is good for improvments.
A sprint car is just a big go kart. Tube frame and some flat body panels.
Caleb. There are a new bread of tinkers hopping up "Rice Burners" by reprogramming their chips. They just reciently got recognized as a drag racing class.
I think it is a normal human tendency to resist change. Yet we wont the latest greatest widget. But only if it's not radical a change. The new generation who have grown up with computers are just as at home tinkering them as older are with machanics. My father always said he liked a horse and buggy better then a car. For one thing the horse could find it's way home on it's own. I am 57 but have been into computers for over 40 years.
In a way I think a modern steamer is being hit from both directions. It would be a radical change. And at the same time it's antique tek.
The more I think about it. A gokart just might be the thing. I know if it were resionably priced I would get one. Wallmart has a 5HP gokart for around $500.00. A steamer version would have to about the same price.
Andy</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: August 21, 2004 02:52AM
<HTML>Hi Graeme
Just in case you might not know. Being down under and all. Sprint car racing is short dirt oval track racing. 1/4 mile, 1/3 mile and 1/2 mile mostly.
Andy</HTML>
Just in case you might not know. Being down under and all. Sprint car racing is short dirt oval track racing. 1/4 mile, 1/3 mile and 1/2 mile mostly.
Andy</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Graeme Vagg (IP Logged)
Date: August 21, 2004 06:50AM
<HTML>Andy,
Yes, we have sprint car racing here and had been to a few night meetings before the track was closed. They had some small classes but not down to go-cart size. It was exciting to watch and you were close enough to the track to get covered in dirt or dust.
Graeme</HTML>
Yes, we have sprint car racing here and had been to a few night meetings before the track was closed. They had some small classes but not down to go-cart size. It was exciting to watch and you were close enough to the track to get covered in dirt or dust.
Graeme</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Caleb Ramsby (IP Logged)
Date: August 21, 2004 02:22PM
<HTML>Andy,
First of all I am 24 years old and have been using computers for 10 to 14 years. My age and understanding of how a computer works has nothing to do with my dislike of computers. My preferance of how I interact with the world and my surroundings is the factor that makes me detest computers and love human controls.
The people who like using computers in their craft or hobby will always be supplied parts and systems from people like you. The same with manual/mechanical control and people like me. It is just a difference in preferance.
They both work.
There are 1,000 applications that a small, medium or large steam system could be used for. Showing the people that the steam system in general is a very flexible system is the key to massive production. Using a clone of one of those(gag!) "reality" shows, that has a team ranging from experts in the field of application and another in steam, along with a wide spectrum of building ability and imagination would put the steam engine in the lime light real quick.
The begining point of my engine design now is the way in which each part is made. Using the simplest design for each part, where using a part design that would use less material but more complex forging or casting and later machining with more delicate heat treating and such will be made is a simple block much thicker than required so that one can later machine the part down to lessen the weight of the part and still be well within safety limits. This would supply the people with a very reliable design to build or a very reliable product that could be modified with the proper knowledge and tools to perform more intensly. In essence an airplane/marine/commercial quality system(as in over built to a much higher degree than consumer use) that can, by taking material off of the parts or making replacement parts for high performance, be made into a long lasting race engine. Ask the racers who drive their cars in realitively long races many times a year how long an engine lasts or which parts that have to replace every few months.
Blacksmithing being a hobby of mine I know what processes one can do to a piece of metal without making to complex of a die, or too much time and distortion of the grain structure. I think that I can get all of my parts designed to be forged with a few simple open dies and a good operator. A flypress(for forging, sliting, punching, bending, drawing down and expanding), forge, lathe(the lathe would need to be modified to do horizontal boring for production work, for small scale a mill would be needed, for cylinder bores), shaper and drill are all that would be neaded to make all of the parts except for the block, which is cast.
Well, I have to get back to making some more raw clay bricks for a galtaftan(fired-earth) outdoor fireplace. With my idea of a radical multi stage/size, chain of dome firplaces with a combustion air preheating path and hopefully flames that jump out one tube into another.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
First of all I am 24 years old and have been using computers for 10 to 14 years. My age and understanding of how a computer works has nothing to do with my dislike of computers. My preferance of how I interact with the world and my surroundings is the factor that makes me detest computers and love human controls.
The people who like using computers in their craft or hobby will always be supplied parts and systems from people like you. The same with manual/mechanical control and people like me. It is just a difference in preferance.
They both work.
There are 1,000 applications that a small, medium or large steam system could be used for. Showing the people that the steam system in general is a very flexible system is the key to massive production. Using a clone of one of those(gag!) "reality" shows, that has a team ranging from experts in the field of application and another in steam, along with a wide spectrum of building ability and imagination would put the steam engine in the lime light real quick.
The begining point of my engine design now is the way in which each part is made. Using the simplest design for each part, where using a part design that would use less material but more complex forging or casting and later machining with more delicate heat treating and such will be made is a simple block much thicker than required so that one can later machine the part down to lessen the weight of the part and still be well within safety limits. This would supply the people with a very reliable design to build or a very reliable product that could be modified with the proper knowledge and tools to perform more intensly. In essence an airplane/marine/commercial quality system(as in over built to a much higher degree than consumer use) that can, by taking material off of the parts or making replacement parts for high performance, be made into a long lasting race engine. Ask the racers who drive their cars in realitively long races many times a year how long an engine lasts or which parts that have to replace every few months.
Blacksmithing being a hobby of mine I know what processes one can do to a piece of metal without making to complex of a die, or too much time and distortion of the grain structure. I think that I can get all of my parts designed to be forged with a few simple open dies and a good operator. A flypress(for forging, sliting, punching, bending, drawing down and expanding), forge, lathe(the lathe would need to be modified to do horizontal boring for production work, for small scale a mill would be needed, for cylinder bores), shaper and drill are all that would be neaded to make all of the parts except for the block, which is cast.
Well, I have to get back to making some more raw clay bricks for a galtaftan(fired-earth) outdoor fireplace. With my idea of a radical multi stage/size, chain of dome firplaces with a combustion air preheating path and hopefully flames that jump out one tube into another.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: August 21, 2004 05:44PM
<HTML>Caleb
I understand your desire for hands on control of life in leaving computers to the internet. I have even gone so far as pondering a post mix burner, whose blower would be driven by a hydraulic motor, driven by the rate of fuel flow from a late White style control system. However, that is something that would take a lot of tinkering to get it into anything near balancing the combustion air to the rate of fuel flow. I am most certain it would require ‘another’ gear box to get to the RPM range the blower fan would require. And of course, you would have the problem of adding a pressurized fuel tank, or sperate electric fuel pump, that is only used for starting purposes and ‘idling’. If you went with purely mechanical system, you would need another fuel pump to refill the pressure tank after start up. Then you would have the fun of coming up with an adjustment system that could handle the normal wear such a mechanical system would have. (Excess capacity on the blower side with an adjustable bypass needle valve for fuel going to the motor might not be a bad place to start).
What I can use ‘right now’ is a small 12 volt commercial gun type burner like is used for home heating. Yes, it will require a pressure limit switch, and an electric relay to handle the current required by the burner. The thing is, it is a simple electric circuit I can test with an Ohm meter. The most I would add to this would be a micro switch on the throttle. You could connect that to a ‘simple’, and better yet adjustable timer relay, that would bring the burner and water pumps on full for a few seconds when you slam the throttle wide open. Doing this should allow a mechanical water control system to keep up with a not so high tech steam generator. Then with the Lamont, you may have enough reserve water in the stand pipe to not need any of this extra complication. One pump to drive boiler circulation just may be simpler than tying to ‘anticipate’ the changes in load inherent in road going autos. Perhaps George would be willing to coment on that?
Graeme, you speak words of wisdom again.
Andy, I know there are folks that dream of the day our toilets will have computer controls. I, and a few others I have spoken with, are sick and tired of products we would have to spend two years in a tech school just to learn how to trouble shoot them, let alone have hope we might be able to fix them ourselves. The investment in special equipment private mechanic shops have these days is ridiculous. Carbs and points needed far more attention than their modern compacted computer controlled descendants. However, with about fifty dollars in tools and spares, I could fix anything short of a blown engine on a cross country trip. Today’s overhead means, it costs the shop that much just to open the garage door.
So... The search goes on...
Garry
PS: I’m starting another link for throttle and cut off controls shortly.</HTML>
I understand your desire for hands on control of life in leaving computers to the internet. I have even gone so far as pondering a post mix burner, whose blower would be driven by a hydraulic motor, driven by the rate of fuel flow from a late White style control system. However, that is something that would take a lot of tinkering to get it into anything near balancing the combustion air to the rate of fuel flow. I am most certain it would require ‘another’ gear box to get to the RPM range the blower fan would require. And of course, you would have the problem of adding a pressurized fuel tank, or sperate electric fuel pump, that is only used for starting purposes and ‘idling’. If you went with purely mechanical system, you would need another fuel pump to refill the pressure tank after start up. Then you would have the fun of coming up with an adjustment system that could handle the normal wear such a mechanical system would have. (Excess capacity on the blower side with an adjustable bypass needle valve for fuel going to the motor might not be a bad place to start).
What I can use ‘right now’ is a small 12 volt commercial gun type burner like is used for home heating. Yes, it will require a pressure limit switch, and an electric relay to handle the current required by the burner. The thing is, it is a simple electric circuit I can test with an Ohm meter. The most I would add to this would be a micro switch on the throttle. You could connect that to a ‘simple’, and better yet adjustable timer relay, that would bring the burner and water pumps on full for a few seconds when you slam the throttle wide open. Doing this should allow a mechanical water control system to keep up with a not so high tech steam generator. Then with the Lamont, you may have enough reserve water in the stand pipe to not need any of this extra complication. One pump to drive boiler circulation just may be simpler than tying to ‘anticipate’ the changes in load inherent in road going autos. Perhaps George would be willing to coment on that?
Graeme, you speak words of wisdom again.
Andy, I know there are folks that dream of the day our toilets will have computer controls. I, and a few others I have spoken with, are sick and tired of products we would have to spend two years in a tech school just to learn how to trouble shoot them, let alone have hope we might be able to fix them ourselves. The investment in special equipment private mechanic shops have these days is ridiculous. Carbs and points needed far more attention than their modern compacted computer controlled descendants. However, with about fifty dollars in tools and spares, I could fix anything short of a blown engine on a cross country trip. Today’s overhead means, it costs the shop that much just to open the garage door.
So... The search goes on...
Garry
PS: I’m starting another link for throttle and cut off controls shortly.</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: August 24, 2004 06:18PM
<HTML>I didn't mean they were go karts. Just their construction is simular.
Andy</HTML>
Andy</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: August 24, 2004 06:41PM
<HTML>Hay we are way off subject here. I am starting a new thread. There is some interesting things Garry and Caleb have brought to light about control technology.
Andy</HTML>
Andy</HTML>
Re: STEAM CAR AUCTION
Posted by: Rolly (IP Logged)
Date: August 24, 2004 06:44PM
<HTML>Any one know what happened to the 1904 Locomoble at the 27th Annual
New England Auto Auction at Owls Head Transportation Museum. It is not listed in the 2004 Auction Results:</HTML>
New England Auto Auction at Owls Head Transportation Museum. It is not listed in the 2004 Auction Results:</HTML>
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