1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Selling Steam
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 04, 2002 09:07PM
<HTML>I would like to produce a steam powered vehicle as much as the next steam guy but after much studying on the subject, I have ruled out an automobile as a first time project. I would like to produce as my first steam vehicle, a snowmobile or ATV designed for the average person. There many reasons to go with a recreational vehicle to break into the steam market and several of these reasons are today's concerns being strongly voiced by the general public.
These vehicles have gotten a bad reputation (but all too real) for the noise and exhaust emissions they produce which has resulted in their banning in many areas. The recreational vehicle (not a motorhome) is not subject to the same government standards as an automobile, no crash tests, no air bags, simple emissions tests, and lots less of everything else demanded of manufacturers. The number of parts involved is far less than for a auto and the size of the parts needed for the recreational vehicle are greatly reduced. Consumers have been and are still satisfied with recreational vehicles in the 20 to 40 HP range, even with the advent of screaming monster machines.
The focus of my first project is the snowmobile, even with its limited market and seasonal use, its adaption to steam only seems logical. The warm up time on today's snowmobile is as long as 10 minutes or sparkplugs may foul, and during this warm-up time the exhaust emissions are greatest, enough to drool slime into the exhaust that eventually must burn off during warmed up running time. A snowmobile rarely operates at temperatures above 45 degrees F. which allows more efficient condensing and a condenser can be mounted in the track tunnel which is constantly sprayed with snow. Every part on a snowmobile can be purchased from multiple manufacturers that are eager for any new market and will compete with each other on a cost basis. These suppliers are not tied to or controlled by the OEM manufacturers so the OEMs can't put the squeeze on small manufacturers and there are a few companies that produce less than 100 machines a year successfully.
With direct drive off the engine, the snowmobile clutches & belt as well as the jackshaft, chain case chain and cogs are all unneeded reducing the rotating mass in the driveline by as much as 12 pounds and overall weight maybe 20 pounds while substantially reducing manufacturing costs. The clutches (torque converter) require as much engineering, tuning, and maintenance as a 2 cycle engine and they rely on a V belt to transfer power that, as it wears, it changes the operating conditions. The current snowmobiles use a great deal of under hood space for the exhaust system, clutches and chaincase which when unneeded provides ample space for most any propulsion system.
When I speak of pollution, it must be remembered that most of the worlds snowmobiles are produced in the U.S. and exported to environmentally concise countries such as the Scandinavians and Europeans that would mandate low pollution snowmobiles if they were available and reasonably competitive. Government agencies that use snowmobiles, such as the U.S. forest service, have already shown interest in low emission vehicles. A big push is on to provide access to the handicapped in remote areas and the snowmobile is the only suitable winter vehicle for this purpose. Right now the government is asking the manufacturers to end 2 cycle engine production on all vehicles by 2008 leaving only the low performance, heavy, polluting and expensive 4 cycle engine that still requires that extra 12 pounds of rotating mass, long warm up times and expensive high octane fuel. Not to mention the greater number of moving parts and service complications. Another plus for the steam snowmobile is, a snowmobile requires very little auxiliary power, probably only using electrical generation and water pumping.
The effects of freezing would have to be controlled, and in the my preliminary design, the condensers would drain back to the resevoir unless an angle of more than 45 degrees is maintained for more than a few seconds. The boiler would be allowed to drain also when the water temperature crept below about 40 degrees F.. In practice, the resevoir would be kept from freezing by pluging it in where available, or a small suplimentary pilot light type heater would come on until no longer needed. The lamont would seem to lend its self well to the drain back design if engineered for it. The design of a header tank in the boiler would have to allow the same angles of operation as the condensors would, requiring some careful design.
Overall, I think the recreational vehicle user is more inclined to try something different than the herded-like-sheep automotive public who are taught what to expect and taught to like it. A niche market might very well lead to retail sales that can prove the merits of steam propulsion for the world to see and apply to other modes of transportation.
Peter Heid</HTML>
These vehicles have gotten a bad reputation (but all too real) for the noise and exhaust emissions they produce which has resulted in their banning in many areas. The recreational vehicle (not a motorhome) is not subject to the same government standards as an automobile, no crash tests, no air bags, simple emissions tests, and lots less of everything else demanded of manufacturers. The number of parts involved is far less than for a auto and the size of the parts needed for the recreational vehicle are greatly reduced. Consumers have been and are still satisfied with recreational vehicles in the 20 to 40 HP range, even with the advent of screaming monster machines.
The focus of my first project is the snowmobile, even with its limited market and seasonal use, its adaption to steam only seems logical. The warm up time on today's snowmobile is as long as 10 minutes or sparkplugs may foul, and during this warm-up time the exhaust emissions are greatest, enough to drool slime into the exhaust that eventually must burn off during warmed up running time. A snowmobile rarely operates at temperatures above 45 degrees F. which allows more efficient condensing and a condenser can be mounted in the track tunnel which is constantly sprayed with snow. Every part on a snowmobile can be purchased from multiple manufacturers that are eager for any new market and will compete with each other on a cost basis. These suppliers are not tied to or controlled by the OEM manufacturers so the OEMs can't put the squeeze on small manufacturers and there are a few companies that produce less than 100 machines a year successfully.
With direct drive off the engine, the snowmobile clutches & belt as well as the jackshaft, chain case chain and cogs are all unneeded reducing the rotating mass in the driveline by as much as 12 pounds and overall weight maybe 20 pounds while substantially reducing manufacturing costs. The clutches (torque converter) require as much engineering, tuning, and maintenance as a 2 cycle engine and they rely on a V belt to transfer power that, as it wears, it changes the operating conditions. The current snowmobiles use a great deal of under hood space for the exhaust system, clutches and chaincase which when unneeded provides ample space for most any propulsion system.
When I speak of pollution, it must be remembered that most of the worlds snowmobiles are produced in the U.S. and exported to environmentally concise countries such as the Scandinavians and Europeans that would mandate low pollution snowmobiles if they were available and reasonably competitive. Government agencies that use snowmobiles, such as the U.S. forest service, have already shown interest in low emission vehicles. A big push is on to provide access to the handicapped in remote areas and the snowmobile is the only suitable winter vehicle for this purpose. Right now the government is asking the manufacturers to end 2 cycle engine production on all vehicles by 2008 leaving only the low performance, heavy, polluting and expensive 4 cycle engine that still requires that extra 12 pounds of rotating mass, long warm up times and expensive high octane fuel. Not to mention the greater number of moving parts and service complications. Another plus for the steam snowmobile is, a snowmobile requires very little auxiliary power, probably only using electrical generation and water pumping.
The effects of freezing would have to be controlled, and in the my preliminary design, the condensers would drain back to the resevoir unless an angle of more than 45 degrees is maintained for more than a few seconds. The boiler would be allowed to drain also when the water temperature crept below about 40 degrees F.. In practice, the resevoir would be kept from freezing by pluging it in where available, or a small suplimentary pilot light type heater would come on until no longer needed. The lamont would seem to lend its self well to the drain back design if engineered for it. The design of a header tank in the boiler would have to allow the same angles of operation as the condensors would, requiring some careful design.
Overall, I think the recreational vehicle user is more inclined to try something different than the herded-like-sheep automotive public who are taught what to expect and taught to like it. A niche market might very well lead to retail sales that can prove the merits of steam propulsion for the world to see and apply to other modes of transportation.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: coburn benson (IP Logged)
Date: March 05, 2002 12:25AM
<HTML>History note,,Oscar York , of Sewell Rd,Wolfboro N H [USA}put a small steam engine in a bobsled,,around '96--98,,drove w a spiked wheel at the back Used it on the lake only,,,Later hand a 30 hp Stanley that he converted to wood during the war,,,Hope you all enjoy a part of my memory,,Cheers Ben OOOps dont forget these new kids drive these things on end,,on side any ole way the boiler may need to opperate upside,,er hey where did that thing go ,,,Hey get it off my leg,,well U get the idea,,, 10 people killed this season in state of Maine alone,, so dont plan for easy regulations , or take too deep a loan !</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: Christopher W. Roberts (IP Logged)
Date: March 05, 2002 03:04AM
<HTML> First I wish you all the luck and support. However you also must take into consideration the controlls for a recreation steam vehicle. Most people do not understand water regulation or conrtolls. It should be made so there are no valves to turn at certian times like the non condensing Stanley. Upmoast importance must be stressed on safty of the vehicle. Of course no vehicle either eletric, steam, or gas is 100% safe. However the generals must be made to a certian safty standard as excess boiler pressure, heat, and a safe fireing system. I do feel that a steam recreation vejicle is not only probale but very possible. Steam can be used in cars, boats, jte skies or any unlimited form of transportation you wish to install it. A good recource for study would be Roger McGuire who built a steam trail bike that is very sucessful, and safe as well as working without the attention of the driver.
CWR</HTML>
CWR</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 05, 2002 04:42PM
<HTML>Ben,
A safety switch that shuts the fuel off after a certain angle is reached would be mandatory, like that needed on a four stroke cycle engined snowmobile to prevent oil starvation. At least I hope they have one.
Often a snowmobile related death is due to an incident involving an auto, poor ice conditions or inexperienced riders on high power machines, I would like to produce a 30 to 40 HP family machine. (Like your car, my personal machine would have the BIG burner/boiler) Comfort not speed is a good start, but we can't do much about ice conditions or auto confrontations beyond proper rider education.
To put oneself at a financial risk for the production of steam vehicles makes little sense and to further heighten the risks, I am saying snowmobile. Only useable in 14 states and a few other countries, very few non-recreational uses, short unreliable seasons, what more could an investor ask for ? It would have to be a project with a perfected prototype, with many hours on it and then you could make a few individual sales and maybe attract an investor or two. Holding demostration races at sactioned events would kindel consumer interest and may even draw those prospective investors. The aftermarket suppliers gladly work with a developer to help promote their product if it is made with parts they sold.
Steam would be a forced entrant into any market but it might go more easily and quieter into a market looking to reduce noise and emission standards on a nonessential family vehicle such as the ATV, snowmobile and watercraft.
Peter Heid</HTML>
A safety switch that shuts the fuel off after a certain angle is reached would be mandatory, like that needed on a four stroke cycle engined snowmobile to prevent oil starvation. At least I hope they have one.
Often a snowmobile related death is due to an incident involving an auto, poor ice conditions or inexperienced riders on high power machines, I would like to produce a 30 to 40 HP family machine. (Like your car, my personal machine would have the BIG burner/boiler) Comfort not speed is a good start, but we can't do much about ice conditions or auto confrontations beyond proper rider education.
To put oneself at a financial risk for the production of steam vehicles makes little sense and to further heighten the risks, I am saying snowmobile. Only useable in 14 states and a few other countries, very few non-recreational uses, short unreliable seasons, what more could an investor ask for ? It would have to be a project with a perfected prototype, with many hours on it and then you could make a few individual sales and maybe attract an investor or two. Holding demostration races at sactioned events would kindel consumer interest and may even draw those prospective investors. The aftermarket suppliers gladly work with a developer to help promote their product if it is made with parts they sold.
Steam would be a forced entrant into any market but it might go more easily and quieter into a market looking to reduce noise and emission standards on a nonessential family vehicle such as the ATV, snowmobile and watercraft.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 09, 2002 11:45PM
<HTML>The idea of a small vehicle with steam propulsion has led me to look, and look again at the Columbia steam bicycle of Stephen Roper introduced, in a refined form in 1894. this twin cylinder, 2x4 inch engine propelled the bicycle to 60 MPH with an engine speed of 200 RPM, geared directly to the rear wheel in locomotive fasion. The water tube boiler was 6" x 6" x 16" and contained 70 tubes producing steam at 150 PSI and in sufficient quanity to maintain 60 MPH. The complete vehicle weighed 70 pounds and would make a joke of most any other vehicle on the road when it's performance was considered. I view these achievements as great for their time, how many other vehicles could travel 60 MPH in 1894 ? Ropers design is very much worth a close look as a starting point for the refinement of the small steam vehicles.
The information I have found is limited and even a layout of the components would interest me greatly. Does anyone know where one might look for more information on Ropers design ?
Peter Heid</HTML>
The information I have found is limited and even a layout of the components would interest me greatly. Does anyone know where one might look for more information on Ropers design ?
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Motorcycles?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 10, 2002 08:44AM
<HTML>I think you're onto something here. I have long thought that a high-powered steam motorcycle would be a dynamite product. I've sketched a few over the years. IMO, Roper's cranks-on-hub drive is the way to go. No chain, no clutch, no tranny, no shifting, not even shafts or gears. 2 cyl, DA, horizontal, simple, counterflow, 90° cranks. Low CG, super-narrow for leaning into curves. It is a perfect, classic design. A big "cruiser" style steam hog would be easier to drive than the gas type, and its torque, smoothness, silence, & simplicity would make it far superior. Easier to tool up for, less work/$ building, testing, & modifying prototypes, and fewer regs to deal with. Plus the motorcyle market is hotter than you know where. They could be built for less & sold for more than a gas bike. Knock 'em dead at Sturgis. I'd go for this myself if I were a skilled motorcycle rider and didn't know so many bikers with horror stories & permanent disabilities from crashes. I'm a car guy.
Then again, I'm sliding toward the stereotypical mid-life crisis thing and may yet go for it. Oh the temptation. But no wife to dump, and the sports car (or motorcycle) has to be steam. LOL.
The biggest drawback of a steam motorcycle, ironically, would be its silence. Bikers prefer loud engines to alert other motorists to their presence, and, frankly, to show off. First thing that most buyers do is drop-kick the factory pipes for something louder. "Look Ma, no muffler!". I suspect that many also like the way a lumpy-running gas engine thrills their girlfriends. :)
Peter</HTML>
Then again, I'm sliding toward the stereotypical mid-life crisis thing and may yet go for it. Oh the temptation. But no wife to dump, and the sports car (or motorcycle) has to be steam. LOL.
The biggest drawback of a steam motorcycle, ironically, would be its silence. Bikers prefer loud engines to alert other motorists to their presence, and, frankly, to show off. First thing that most buyers do is drop-kick the factory pipes for something louder. "Look Ma, no muffler!". I suspect that many also like the way a lumpy-running gas engine thrills their girlfriends. :)
Peter</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Motorcycles?
Posted by: Bruce Waterworth (IP Logged)
Date: March 10, 2002 11:30AM
<HTML>You might want to checkout the English magazine Old Glory issues Feb 2000 and May 2001 for fairly comprehensive articles on the Haleson steam motorcycle
Regards, Bruce.</HTML>
Regards, Bruce.</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 10, 2002 11:18PM
<HTML>Answered my own question somewhat. The book, Motocycles, has an article on ropers design. The book is a group of articles from the American Machinest Magazine, reprinted by Lindsay publications. A gent by the name of Bob Jorgensen of Memphis has reproduced a charcoal burning version of Ropers steam bicycle. Several great photos of his projects can be seen on the Lindsay web site at [www.lindsaybks.com].
I use to race motorcycles and could only imagine a vehicle that built up stored energy when running at a lower than maximum throttle setting, just waiting for the next straight-away.
Peter Heid
----------------
Note:
Here is a link direct to the Roper Steam Cycle page - also follow other links there for more photos [www.lindsaybks.com]
JW
Admin</HTML>
I use to race motorcycles and could only imagine a vehicle that built up stored energy when running at a lower than maximum throttle setting, just waiting for the next straight-away.
Peter Heid
----------------
Note:
Here is a link direct to the Roper Steam Cycle page - also follow other links there for more photos [www.lindsaybks.com]
JW
Admin</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: Robert J Ballinger. (IP Logged)
Date: March 11, 2002 10:10PM
<HTML>Dear Coburn.
I think we may have just made contact. Did you get my letter on the snail mail re the Vanderbilt replica project?
Cheers.
Bob Ballinger.</HTML>
I think we may have just made contact. Did you get my letter on the snail mail re the Vanderbilt replica project?
Cheers.
Bob Ballinger.</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2002 12:41AM
<HTML>The Roper '95 machine ,,,,Boiler 7''x14''x21'' Thin plate well stayed probably 060 stock,,water leg,,1/2 ''tubes I forgot the count] NOT water tube,,,all up about 100# ,,[I weighed it =] ,, The water tank as sloped on bottom to allow the smoke box to provide heat for the tank THE whole thing was VERRY well thought out,,,The piston valve had run hot enough to turn blue ! ! !Ropers workmanship was a JOY to study,,,He also put a 14' 'Biler in a [collage]rowing scull ,,,fast not to practical,,,,,since when was this steam group thinkin practical anyhow,,,Now theres a good fantacy ?? Does any one have anything on his PRESSURIZED Hot air engine ?? THE FIRE was pressurized,,,WOW talk of fast combustion ! ! ! The grandaughter said he had 60 + - empoyees in that shop in its hayday,,,Geo Whitney apprenticed AND shared a shop at E Boston '95,,,,Oh yeh I could write books on this stuff Think ive got enuff for 5 at present but no time,,but its fun,, BEN</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Motorcycles?
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2002 12:45AM
<HTML>Exhaust down the flue pipe will not be so silent as a stanley ex thru the feedwater htr' Ben</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: Howard Randall (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2002 12:23PM
<HTML>Thanks for the links to the Roper reproduction story and pictures. My father owned the late 1860's Roper steam motorcycle, now in the Smithsonian Museum in Washington, D.C. Coburn Benson owned the 1890's one. My father's Roper sat in our living room in a glass case for several years and George Whitney, then a very old, but still very sharp man, came to visit. I remember it well, at age 12 or so, as I was charged with running the tape recorder! (Still looking for the tape)
Both machines are marvels of simplicity and art. Fitting examples of what could or can be achieved. Sadly, the Roper story is mostly untold, particularly when Detroit celebrated their 100 anniversary of the automobile.
When I was President of the Stanley Museum, my recollection is that the Roper archives were given over to the museum. I am not sure if they contain any more detailed information / drawings of his machines, which include a steam automobile or two in the middle 1800's. Perhaps Coburn Benson knows more about this.
Coburn, is the present owner of the 1890's bike also making a reproduction of it and of Roper's auto from the Ford Museum?
How about a modern steam motorcycle with lamont boiler running on grain alcohol? We could pull silently into a Harley biker bar and ask the bartender to "Fill-her up"!
Then, pull silently away in a roooooorrrr of laughter and woooosh of steam.
You have to have a dream in order to make a dream come true!</HTML>
Both machines are marvels of simplicity and art. Fitting examples of what could or can be achieved. Sadly, the Roper story is mostly untold, particularly when Detroit celebrated their 100 anniversary of the automobile.
When I was President of the Stanley Museum, my recollection is that the Roper archives were given over to the museum. I am not sure if they contain any more detailed information / drawings of his machines, which include a steam automobile or two in the middle 1800's. Perhaps Coburn Benson knows more about this.
Coburn, is the present owner of the 1890's bike also making a reproduction of it and of Roper's auto from the Ford Museum?
How about a modern steam motorcycle with lamont boiler running on grain alcohol? We could pull silently into a Harley biker bar and ask the bartender to "Fill-her up"!
Then, pull silently away in a roooooorrrr of laughter and woooosh of steam.
You have to have a dream in order to make a dream come true!</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2002 02:47PM
<HTML>Gentlemen, Gentlemen,
What is this fascination for a steam motorcycle, outside of just the fun of making one?
Why not consider making a small compound plant that would go into one of those little throwaway cars like the GEO, Honda Civic, Festiva or some other little box. The cost of designing and building such a 20-30 HP plant is no more than a good motorcycle version, the slightly increased material costs are not significant.
Then you would have something that relates to a modern steam car, if done right you have room to put in an adequate steam generator and condenser.
Several have been done in the past, Roy Anderson's compound for Crosley station wagon, and Wendell Mason's superb engine that went into a Goliath station wagon.
If you must make a motorcycle, take a good look at the Honda flat six bike, lots of room when you take out that big engine.
Have fun.
Jim</HTML>
What is this fascination for a steam motorcycle, outside of just the fun of making one?
Why not consider making a small compound plant that would go into one of those little throwaway cars like the GEO, Honda Civic, Festiva or some other little box. The cost of designing and building such a 20-30 HP plant is no more than a good motorcycle version, the slightly increased material costs are not significant.
Then you would have something that relates to a modern steam car, if done right you have room to put in an adequate steam generator and condenser.
Several have been done in the past, Roy Anderson's compound for Crosley station wagon, and Wendell Mason's superb engine that went into a Goliath station wagon.
If you must make a motorcycle, take a good look at the Honda flat six bike, lots of room when you take out that big engine.
Have fun.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2002 04:06PM
<HTML>Good idea on a steam power module for the shoe box cars as a way into the field. It would be really neat if you could offer one basic package that would cover many cars with few changes. But I have repowered many vehicles and with today's vehicles, you are lucky to find even one part that you can use from one vehicle to another. Usually the only thing they have in common is they burn gasoline. The computer that runs the engine is many times used for other functions in the car and removing any one portion causes system failure. Change the map sensor and the interior light comes on when you turn on the radio, but only when the car is running.
I was hoping to build my first steam project as a small (just bigger than a moped) motorcycle. It might be the simplest and cheapest way for me to get any practical experience and I can work with many used parts on hand. If completed and refined, that project might help lead me to the development of a saleable item in an active market. If I build a steam motorcycle, I hope I can make it narrower than a CBX, Honda's answer to the question no one asked.
Peter Heid</HTML>
I was hoping to build my first steam project as a small (just bigger than a moped) motorcycle. It might be the simplest and cheapest way for me to get any practical experience and I can work with many used parts on hand. If completed and refined, that project might help lead me to the development of a saleable item in an active market. If I build a steam motorcycle, I hope I can make it narrower than a CBX, Honda's answer to the question no one asked.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2002 04:29PM
<HTML>Peter,
If one uses one of those little cars, then, like Mason did, strip it and just use the transmission and front drive system.
Computer rubbish? Strip it all out. You need none of it and the lights, sid view mirrors and horn work well without computer control, although just give them time!!
Mason used a little 2" X 3-1/2' X 2-1/2" compound with piston valves, fixed cutoff and used the transmission to warm it up and for lower gears. I think that was the size. He wrote it up in an old SACA journal way back when.
The tiny steam generator was across the engine compartment and the water pump and blower were tucked in. All in all, a superb little 20 HP powerplant and very nicely done.
Not expensive to make either.
After Wendell died his son took over the steamer and that is the last I ever heard about it. Probably moldering away in some garage. It ought to be restored and used.
Really no more expensive than a good motorcycle conversion and a heck of a lot easier to cram all the stuff in.
Jim</HTML>
If one uses one of those little cars, then, like Mason did, strip it and just use the transmission and front drive system.
Computer rubbish? Strip it all out. You need none of it and the lights, sid view mirrors and horn work well without computer control, although just give them time!!
Mason used a little 2" X 3-1/2' X 2-1/2" compound with piston valves, fixed cutoff and used the transmission to warm it up and for lower gears. I think that was the size. He wrote it up in an old SACA journal way back when.
The tiny steam generator was across the engine compartment and the water pump and blower were tucked in. All in all, a superb little 20 HP powerplant and very nicely done.
Not expensive to make either.
After Wendell died his son took over the steamer and that is the last I ever heard about it. Probably moldering away in some garage. It ought to be restored and used.
Really no more expensive than a good motorcycle conversion and a heck of a lot easier to cram all the stuff in.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam & Roper Caloric Engine
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 13, 2002 09:14AM
<HTML>Hi Ben,
Steam bike Roper was also hot-air-engine Roper? Something just clicked in my mechanical memory. Never made the connection before. Yes, I have a late-'70s book on hot air engines, which includes some pix & mention of the Roper air engine. I'll dig it up. Really interesting design. Pure genius.
Open exhaust is a fun idea for a steam motorcycle. Close a valve to send water to heater and condenser on the road to Sturgis (not many horse troughs on the way), open valve for attention-getting steam clouds and a "crack" on the exhaust as you pop a wheelie away from the curb. A cloud of steam and a locomotive chuff-chuff would get car drivers' attention better than a straight pipe on a Harley. "Either I'm burnin' oil, or Casey Jones is tailgatin' me"! LOL.
Okay, looked it up. No text, but 2 magnificent full-page cuts of "Roper hot-air or caloric engine". Not much info, but cutaway pic shows how it worked. Huh, a solid-fueled IC engine! Wild overhead rocking beam drive. Add some overhead belts, and it would fit right into a dark corner in some Victorian basement shop. Source: Stirling Cycle Engines, by Andy Ross (Phoenix, Arizona: Solar Engines, 1977, pp 58-59). Picture credits: Alan Phillips Historical Collection (Alan G. Phillips, POB 20511, Orlando, FL 32814, catalogs & material available in reprint form in 1977).
Peter</HTML>
Steam bike Roper was also hot-air-engine Roper? Something just clicked in my mechanical memory. Never made the connection before. Yes, I have a late-'70s book on hot air engines, which includes some pix & mention of the Roper air engine. I'll dig it up. Really interesting design. Pure genius.
Open exhaust is a fun idea for a steam motorcycle. Close a valve to send water to heater and condenser on the road to Sturgis (not many horse troughs on the way), open valve for attention-getting steam clouds and a "crack" on the exhaust as you pop a wheelie away from the curb. A cloud of steam and a locomotive chuff-chuff would get car drivers' attention better than a straight pipe on a Harley. "Either I'm burnin' oil, or Casey Jones is tailgatin' me"! LOL.
Okay, looked it up. No text, but 2 magnificent full-page cuts of "Roper hot-air or caloric engine". Not much info, but cutaway pic shows how it worked. Huh, a solid-fueled IC engine! Wild overhead rocking beam drive. Add some overhead belts, and it would fit right into a dark corner in some Victorian basement shop. Source: Stirling Cycle Engines, by Andy Ross (Phoenix, Arizona: Solar Engines, 1977, pp 58-59). Picture credits: Alan Phillips Historical Collection (Alan G. Phillips, POB 20511, Orlando, FL 32814, catalogs & material available in reprint form in 1977).
Peter</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 13, 2002 10:47AM
<HTML>Hi Jim,
Yep, the steam motorcycle is just for fun. Come to think of it, my current car project is pretty close to the econobox conversion idea you mentioned. Just an inch or two bigger bore/stroke, simple instead of compound, and direct drive, but nothing that makes a huge difference in the cost/difficulty department. I'm sizing it to fit in an economy car, though a small, peppy roadster is planned too. If it works, scaled-up versions for bigger cars are a possibility.
My steam motorcycle concepts always turned into small-car concepts when I realized that the work & cost (relative to a _good_ steam motorcycle, with automatics, smooth engine, decent power/economy etc) wouldn't be much different. A steam motorcycle does give easier storage and cheaper insurance/registration. Then again, the steam car has greater safety/comfort, all-weather driving, more passenger/cargo capacity, and (for me) no need to get motorcycle training/license. More bang for the buck.
It still seems odd to me that bigger engines and boilers aren't much tougher to make than those on deluxe steam toys. For an extreme example, Peter Barrett once said that his neighbor's scale-model steam locomotive took a lot more time/effort to build than his steam car.
I guess larger vehicle/powerplant size introduces an "intimidation factor"; "big size, big job". Intimidation factors are everywhere and easily overcome. For example, I used to think that moving furniture was a task best left to pros, until I did it professionally for a while on temporary assignments, and later got into managing furnished rooms/apartments. Now I think nothing of moving around sofas, fridges, stoves, etc -- actually easier & quicker than fussy "little chores" like folding towels or washing dishes. I have had similar experiences with teaching myself to do brake jobs and tune-ups on my old gas car; wouldn't dream of paying an "expert" to do that stuff now. Plus I actually do a better job than some of the "professional" wrench jockeys I have dealt with.
Peter</HTML>
Yep, the steam motorcycle is just for fun. Come to think of it, my current car project is pretty close to the econobox conversion idea you mentioned. Just an inch or two bigger bore/stroke, simple instead of compound, and direct drive, but nothing that makes a huge difference in the cost/difficulty department. I'm sizing it to fit in an economy car, though a small, peppy roadster is planned too. If it works, scaled-up versions for bigger cars are a possibility.
My steam motorcycle concepts always turned into small-car concepts when I realized that the work & cost (relative to a _good_ steam motorcycle, with automatics, smooth engine, decent power/economy etc) wouldn't be much different. A steam motorcycle does give easier storage and cheaper insurance/registration. Then again, the steam car has greater safety/comfort, all-weather driving, more passenger/cargo capacity, and (for me) no need to get motorcycle training/license. More bang for the buck.
It still seems odd to me that bigger engines and boilers aren't much tougher to make than those on deluxe steam toys. For an extreme example, Peter Barrett once said that his neighbor's scale-model steam locomotive took a lot more time/effort to build than his steam car.
I guess larger vehicle/powerplant size introduces an "intimidation factor"; "big size, big job". Intimidation factors are everywhere and easily overcome. For example, I used to think that moving furniture was a task best left to pros, until I did it professionally for a while on temporary assignments, and later got into managing furnished rooms/apartments. Now I think nothing of moving around sofas, fridges, stoves, etc -- actually easier & quicker than fussy "little chores" like folding towels or washing dishes. I have had similar experiences with teaching myself to do brake jobs and tune-ups on my old gas car; wouldn't dream of paying an "expert" to do that stuff now. Plus I actually do a better job than some of the "professional" wrench jockeys I have dealt with.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: March 13, 2002 03:10PM
<HTML>Peter,
I guess some feel that a big car project is too grand to contemplate; but after a few such things, I found it much easier to do.
As to a small roadster, think about a MIATA. Now loads of them on the used car market and not expensive. A 30-40HP plant would make a dandy steamer out of one. A V-2 or V-3 right up against the firewall, steam generator in the trunk and condensers in front and under the hood.
There is an awful loss factor with little steam engines that goes away when you make them larger. So much goes out with leakage, radiation and conduction losses.
Yeah, a motorcycle would be a fun thing to do, I must confess to thinking about one at times, just to see if I could cram all the hardware into the thing and still make it look nice.
If a Honda six ever crossed my path with a bad engine, I just might buy it and see if I could do the job.
Right now I have to finish the Doble book, that is first priority and going well. Then if I have any energy left, and I can find the right engine concept that I am happy with, the new steam sports car.
Jim</HTML>
I guess some feel that a big car project is too grand to contemplate; but after a few such things, I found it much easier to do.
As to a small roadster, think about a MIATA. Now loads of them on the used car market and not expensive. A 30-40HP plant would make a dandy steamer out of one. A V-2 or V-3 right up against the firewall, steam generator in the trunk and condensers in front and under the hood.
There is an awful loss factor with little steam engines that goes away when you make them larger. So much goes out with leakage, radiation and conduction losses.
Yeah, a motorcycle would be a fun thing to do, I must confess to thinking about one at times, just to see if I could cram all the hardware into the thing and still make it look nice.
If a Honda six ever crossed my path with a bad engine, I just might buy it and see if I could do the job.
Right now I have to finish the Doble book, that is first priority and going well. Then if I have any energy left, and I can find the right engine concept that I am happy with, the new steam sports car.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam & Roper Caloric Engine
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: March 13, 2002 09:59PM
<HTML>I think the original material is in Scientific American,,,,no idea of what issue,,,But I HAVE seen it,,,The firebox door was like a Navy bulkhead door,,,,W/ bolts to dog it down,,,Oh speakin of infernal' combustn stuff There were lots of that stuff,,,Try Capt. John Morley ,,Terpintine engine of around 1835,,,Tried to sell itt to Baltimore& Ohio no go ,,,in the process he invented the carburettor / not a spray tube tho,,,Duryea gives him this credit in a tech paper WWWWey back Duryea built a replica of this design for a historical exhibit,,,,,Guess around,,,,,95,,,,dont quote me on date its been a long while on that one,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam & Roper Caloric Engine
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 14, 2002 06:44AM
<HTML>Hi Ben,
Yes, I noticed the dog bolts. Wonder how they gasketed that (hot, pressurized) door -- also door on ash box. Guess when you popped it open to stoke the fire, the engine stopped? Or maybe the flywheel kept it turning for a while ... Huge piston, looks like plunger type instead of ringed? I love early carburetors, one had a slow-turning wire brush that rotated the bristles through a cup of fuel to wet them, then ran them thru the inlet air stream, where the air wiped off the fuel vapor. Then there's hot-tube ignition ... who sez IC engines need electricity? Turpentine engine, nice, also the Ofeldt naptha launch engine. Naptha burner heats a naptha boiler, which runs a vapor engine. Musta been fun to run with stuffing box and boiler leaks lighting off ... Whew.
Peter</HTML>
Yes, I noticed the dog bolts. Wonder how they gasketed that (hot, pressurized) door -- also door on ash box. Guess when you popped it open to stoke the fire, the engine stopped? Or maybe the flywheel kept it turning for a while ... Huge piston, looks like plunger type instead of ringed? I love early carburetors, one had a slow-turning wire brush that rotated the bristles through a cup of fuel to wet them, then ran them thru the inlet air stream, where the air wiped off the fuel vapor. Then there's hot-tube ignition ... who sez IC engines need electricity? Turpentine engine, nice, also the Ofeldt naptha launch engine. Naptha burner heats a naptha boiler, which runs a vapor engine. Musta been fun to run with stuffing box and boiler leaks lighting off ... Whew.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 15, 2002 10:30AM
<HTML>Hi Jim,
Yes, the surface area/volume ratio of a steam engine is important and often overlooked. Make a steam cylinder small enough and it is just an elaborate condenser. More cylinders increases this ratio too. I think ~140 CID (2.3L, ~like Stanley 3x4 twin) is about the smallest steam engine practical for a real car. Maybe a hair smaller, depending on design details. FE & FO knew this 90 years ago.
Miatas, LOL. I got to drive one, once, about a year ago, and yes it is a fun little car, esp with the top down. Now a buddy of mine recently got a '90 Miata for his wife ("what a cute little car"), and despite a hair-raising showoff ride, I still rib him about driving a "girly car", the same model Mr. Smithers drives on "The Simpsons". LOL. Cruel tricks for dear friends; he loves the thing. In return, he offers to shovel coal for my steam car. Personally, I'd go for something small, but a little less "cute" and more "badass" to match the burn-rubber steam performance. Maybe like the "Stanley Revival" coupe I built on a VW Bug chassis in the late '80s (lesson learned: build powerplant first, before the project times out). My cousin said if he saw "that thing" approaching in the rear view, he'd get out of the way. I chose to take this as a compliment.
Well, maybe a mutant Miata with some trick SoCal fiberglass body panels to cut weight and clear the road. :)
But yes, Miata is the size/type of vehicle, image issues & weight aside, and my buddy did pick his up for surprisingly cheap, in good running condition. With a blown engine or screwed tranny from el yonque, a real steal. 30-40 (steam) hp, right on the nose. 40 for mine (design goal, anyway). Fiddle with the drive ratio and maybe 90-100 mph cruise with low-slung body. 0-60 in, eh, 5 or 6 with overload steam, beefy enuf engine/gears, and light kitcar/trick body on Bug chassis (1200 lb Porsche Speedster semi-replica?)? Sounds like a Danville winner to me, unless the Green Monster returns.
I read somewhere that Mazda literally filled up a huge industrial dumpster with rejects while testing Miata exhaust systems, trying to get a 60s English roadsteroid exhaust note "just right". Talk about squeezing the last drop of appeal out of a dead-end technology. Zoom zoom, yeah right. Wait'll they see a _steam_ roadster! "Zoom" should go on the asphalt, not in the air.
Best of luck with the Doble book, glad to hear that it is going well, and looking forward to it.
Peter</HTML>
Yes, the surface area/volume ratio of a steam engine is important and often overlooked. Make a steam cylinder small enough and it is just an elaborate condenser. More cylinders increases this ratio too. I think ~140 CID (2.3L, ~like Stanley 3x4 twin) is about the smallest steam engine practical for a real car. Maybe a hair smaller, depending on design details. FE & FO knew this 90 years ago.
Miatas, LOL. I got to drive one, once, about a year ago, and yes it is a fun little car, esp with the top down. Now a buddy of mine recently got a '90 Miata for his wife ("what a cute little car"), and despite a hair-raising showoff ride, I still rib him about driving a "girly car", the same model Mr. Smithers drives on "The Simpsons". LOL. Cruel tricks for dear friends; he loves the thing. In return, he offers to shovel coal for my steam car. Personally, I'd go for something small, but a little less "cute" and more "badass" to match the burn-rubber steam performance. Maybe like the "Stanley Revival" coupe I built on a VW Bug chassis in the late '80s (lesson learned: build powerplant first, before the project times out). My cousin said if he saw "that thing" approaching in the rear view, he'd get out of the way. I chose to take this as a compliment.
Well, maybe a mutant Miata with some trick SoCal fiberglass body panels to cut weight and clear the road. :)
But yes, Miata is the size/type of vehicle, image issues & weight aside, and my buddy did pick his up for surprisingly cheap, in good running condition. With a blown engine or screwed tranny from el yonque, a real steal. 30-40 (steam) hp, right on the nose. 40 for mine (design goal, anyway). Fiddle with the drive ratio and maybe 90-100 mph cruise with low-slung body. 0-60 in, eh, 5 or 6 with overload steam, beefy enuf engine/gears, and light kitcar/trick body on Bug chassis (1200 lb Porsche Speedster semi-replica?)? Sounds like a Danville winner to me, unless the Green Monster returns.
I read somewhere that Mazda literally filled up a huge industrial dumpster with rejects while testing Miata exhaust systems, trying to get a 60s English roadsteroid exhaust note "just right". Talk about squeezing the last drop of appeal out of a dead-end technology. Zoom zoom, yeah right. Wait'll they see a _steam_ roadster! "Zoom" should go on the asphalt, not in the air.
Best of luck with the Doble book, glad to hear that it is going well, and looking forward to it.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: March 15, 2002 02:15PM
<HTML>Peter,
There are tons of add on fender flares and wings and all sorts of rubbish to disguise the Miata, if you must.
That would be a most practical car to convert, considering the size of the engine and the usual swing of the home owned lathe and mill.
Don't know if you could cram the engine in the driveline tunnel, or sideways right in front of the diff.; but you sure can get it in front of the firewall as a 90° vee twin and the steam generator in the back. 40 HP and the right ratios and a potent Lamont would sure make a nice sports steamer and from what I know about this, would be a doable project.
There are loads of overdrive units available that could go where the original trans went and give you one to one and then overdrive, plus neutral. Look at Lenco Racing Transmission on their web site. Nice and small and that is what I would use if I do finally select the Wankel as the expander.
Sent letter to a real turbine expert yesterday to seek consulting on a neat multistage radial design that offers a wide high efficiency curve. If it proves out, that is what I want, coupled to the new Ford CVT truck tranny.
Looking at a 74 V-12 Jag roadster today that has a Chevy in it, cheap, we shall see.
Are you going to the Sept. SACA meet?
Jim</HTML>
There are tons of add on fender flares and wings and all sorts of rubbish to disguise the Miata, if you must.
That would be a most practical car to convert, considering the size of the engine and the usual swing of the home owned lathe and mill.
Don't know if you could cram the engine in the driveline tunnel, or sideways right in front of the diff.; but you sure can get it in front of the firewall as a 90° vee twin and the steam generator in the back. 40 HP and the right ratios and a potent Lamont would sure make a nice sports steamer and from what I know about this, would be a doable project.
There are loads of overdrive units available that could go where the original trans went and give you one to one and then overdrive, plus neutral. Look at Lenco Racing Transmission on their web site. Nice and small and that is what I would use if I do finally select the Wankel as the expander.
Sent letter to a real turbine expert yesterday to seek consulting on a neat multistage radial design that offers a wide high efficiency curve. If it proves out, that is what I want, coupled to the new Ford CVT truck tranny.
Looking at a 74 V-12 Jag roadster today that has a Chevy in it, cheap, we shall see.
Are you going to the Sept. SACA meet?
Jim</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: John Winter (IP Logged)
Date: March 15, 2002 05:06PM
<HTML>How practical would a system be that used a fast turning, one speed small steam plant to turn an alternator. The generated power would maintain a voltage level in the battries in an electric car. All steam equipment in the front, batteries and electric drive in the rear (or at the wheels). The steam generator would start up and shut based on the voltage level. The engine would start at a set steam pressure, run through a short drain cycle then run full speed. All steam functions will be fully automatic so the little lady and lawyers could drive the car with out any knowledgr of steam.</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 15, 2002 08:14PM
<HTML>A steam-electric hybrid is a possability. You must consider that every time energy changes forms, there are losses. In a hybrid, the losses are only some what made up buy regenerative braking. Much fuel must be used to carry the weight of the batteries and they have a finite life adding to maintainance, inital cost and disposal problems. Batteries loose some of their power just sitting unlike fuel stored in a tank. The insulation for the engine and boiler would have to be very good so heat losses can be minimised when running and when idle. Most batteries are influenced by temperature and cold weather can greatly reduce storage capabilities. The production costs of any system are related to complexity, hybrid systems aren't simple.
A IC engine-electric hybrid is no more efficient than a plain IC auto built with the same technologies. A friend with a Honda hybrid asked me why no one produced an IC auto that got equivelent fuel mileage. The answer is simple. Cost ! His Honda has an estimated factory cost of $80,000 but it is sold for around $20,000 to promote the technology. How many people could justify that $60,000 difference for 20 or 30 more miles per gallon? I believe the IC hybrid will go the way of the GM and Honda all electric autos, down the tubes. I can't wait to scavenge junk yard parts from these machines. The all electric cars lasted only 2 years from these companies, ending in dismal failure. Not a good record considering that the auto companies have more battery design patents than the battery companies do.
The engine the system is based on must be very efficient or the rest of the vehicle will suffer as the losses are multiplied. My thoughts on an engine for a steam-electric hybrid would have to include looking at the free piston engine. It has very few parts, engine speed is easily regulated, electrical power generation is easily accomplished, and as an IC design, there has not been a more efficient IC engine produced. The opposed, free piston IC engine has recorded efficiencies of 45 to 50% and a unaflow steam design should be similar because the compression rato can be varied from less than 10:1 to more than 50:1. The free piston engine is most efficient at full load which complements its suitability for a hybrid design.
Peter Heid</HTML>
A IC engine-electric hybrid is no more efficient than a plain IC auto built with the same technologies. A friend with a Honda hybrid asked me why no one produced an IC auto that got equivelent fuel mileage. The answer is simple. Cost ! His Honda has an estimated factory cost of $80,000 but it is sold for around $20,000 to promote the technology. How many people could justify that $60,000 difference for 20 or 30 more miles per gallon? I believe the IC hybrid will go the way of the GM and Honda all electric autos, down the tubes. I can't wait to scavenge junk yard parts from these machines. The all electric cars lasted only 2 years from these companies, ending in dismal failure. Not a good record considering that the auto companies have more battery design patents than the battery companies do.
The engine the system is based on must be very efficient or the rest of the vehicle will suffer as the losses are multiplied. My thoughts on an engine for a steam-electric hybrid would have to include looking at the free piston engine. It has very few parts, engine speed is easily regulated, electrical power generation is easily accomplished, and as an IC design, there has not been a more efficient IC engine produced. The opposed, free piston IC engine has recorded efficiencies of 45 to 50% and a unaflow steam design should be similar because the compression rato can be varied from less than 10:1 to more than 50:1. The free piston engine is most efficient at full load which complements its suitability for a hybrid design.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: John Winter (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2002 02:34AM
<HTML>Thank you Peter. I can dream can't I. What about doing away with the big set of battries and direct power the traction motors. IE Diesel locomotives.
A steam powered car will have to be hands off under the hood if it ever had a chance to catch on.</HTML>
A steam powered car will have to be hands off under the hood if it ever had a chance to catch on.</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2002 03:25AM
<HTML>John,
Dreams are the seeds of lifes goals, plant those seeds along your path to success.
Don't count out the steam-electric hybrid, using less batteries is better if the system allows. A diesel electric locomotive runs most efficiently with a large, continueous load because the engine has a minimum power level needed to continue operation of the charging system. A sucessful hybrid system would need the correct balance of storage reserve and generation ability. There have been many electric cars and hybrids built by a wide range of people and I would look at the power available from them to get an idea of what to realistically expect from batteries and generators. If I remember right, a company built a hybrid from an electric jet starter motor, batteries, and a 16HP briggs and stratton engine/generator that appeared in mechanix illustrated in the early 1980's. The machine was quite sucessful, plans are available and if I'm not mistaken, the company can be found on the net at [www.rqriley.com]. Their success is due to simplicity and light weight, requirements important in any successfull propulsion system.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Dreams are the seeds of lifes goals, plant those seeds along your path to success.
Don't count out the steam-electric hybrid, using less batteries is better if the system allows. A diesel electric locomotive runs most efficiently with a large, continueous load because the engine has a minimum power level needed to continue operation of the charging system. A sucessful hybrid system would need the correct balance of storage reserve and generation ability. There have been many electric cars and hybrids built by a wide range of people and I would look at the power available from them to get an idea of what to realistically expect from batteries and generators. If I remember right, a company built a hybrid from an electric jet starter motor, batteries, and a 16HP briggs and stratton engine/generator that appeared in mechanix illustrated in the early 1980's. The machine was quite sucessful, plans are available and if I'm not mistaken, the company can be found on the net at [www.rqriley.com]. Their success is due to simplicity and light weight, requirements important in any successfull propulsion system.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2002 08:01AM
<HTML>Hi Jim,
Interesting ideas, thanks. One thing I like about vee twins is that you can use a single throw crank, with eccentrics & mains to each side. I'm still looking at cutting holes in unibody bottoms to make room for a Stanley/Doble type direct drive engine. This type just plain won't fit under an unmodified modern unibody if sized for decent power.
I don't recommend this approach for others, but I can engineer/pattern/mold/build fiberglass covers which would both cover the new space underneath and reinforce the unibody to stronger than before, a plus with ragtops. Rustproof too, and lighter than the original steel. Sounds like more of a pain than it is ("intimidation factor" again). I've made plenty of frp panels several times that size, and any body shop can cut along a spray-painted line to make the hole in like a half hour for cheap. Or I could do it myself with my angle grinder/cutting wheel or a nibbler.
Only question is, should the cover be bonded to wirebrushed hole edges on the unibody or fitted on with a gasket & a dozen bolts to give removeability for easier engine service access? Well, there is one other question: is this engine type worth modifying the unibody for? It is very "K.I.S.S.y". But if it doesn't work out, this may end up a one-off experiment, followed by different engines/layouts. Vee twin looks best for underhood engine layout, in case something hot & supercompact like a turbine or Wankel doesn't make the cut. Sure works for Pritchard and Pellandine.
I'll do some tape-measure work on my buddy's Miata to see what's what. Maybe tomorrow, if I can get him to bring it to my St. Pat's day party and it ain't raining and I don't have too many Guinnesses or burn out from cooking/eating overload. :) The boiler might fit in front, perhaps under a custom hood. Front hood, grille, & rear deck is probably all the bodywork I'd mess with for "decutesification" & customizing purposes.
I've measured a number of modern car engine compartments, and found that ~22"diax24" tall boiler, 10 gal h2o tank, and condenser, will fit under most front hoods with room to spare for controls, plumbing, service access, etc. In some, you could also stack 3 or more radiators together if desired or needed. Cut & cover the back floor, and a small Stanley/Doble type engine will fit there. Similar approach has succeeded with at least one Pinto and a couple other small modern cars I know of.
Now for bodywork, check out the TVR Tuscan Speed Six. <a href="http://www.tvr-eng.co.uk">TVR Tuscan Speed Six</a>. I've got the Sept. 2000 Maxim (British edition), with this on pp 188-189. That's the look I'd go for. With a few tweaks of my own.
Good luck with the '74 Jag. Sounds sweet.
I am now planning to go to the Sept 2002 meet in Seattle. See ya there.
Peter</HTML>
Interesting ideas, thanks. One thing I like about vee twins is that you can use a single throw crank, with eccentrics & mains to each side. I'm still looking at cutting holes in unibody bottoms to make room for a Stanley/Doble type direct drive engine. This type just plain won't fit under an unmodified modern unibody if sized for decent power.
I don't recommend this approach for others, but I can engineer/pattern/mold/build fiberglass covers which would both cover the new space underneath and reinforce the unibody to stronger than before, a plus with ragtops. Rustproof too, and lighter than the original steel. Sounds like more of a pain than it is ("intimidation factor" again). I've made plenty of frp panels several times that size, and any body shop can cut along a spray-painted line to make the hole in like a half hour for cheap. Or I could do it myself with my angle grinder/cutting wheel or a nibbler.
Only question is, should the cover be bonded to wirebrushed hole edges on the unibody or fitted on with a gasket & a dozen bolts to give removeability for easier engine service access? Well, there is one other question: is this engine type worth modifying the unibody for? It is very "K.I.S.S.y". But if it doesn't work out, this may end up a one-off experiment, followed by different engines/layouts. Vee twin looks best for underhood engine layout, in case something hot & supercompact like a turbine or Wankel doesn't make the cut. Sure works for Pritchard and Pellandine.
I'll do some tape-measure work on my buddy's Miata to see what's what. Maybe tomorrow, if I can get him to bring it to my St. Pat's day party and it ain't raining and I don't have too many Guinnesses or burn out from cooking/eating overload. :) The boiler might fit in front, perhaps under a custom hood. Front hood, grille, & rear deck is probably all the bodywork I'd mess with for "decutesification" & customizing purposes.
I've measured a number of modern car engine compartments, and found that ~22"diax24" tall boiler, 10 gal h2o tank, and condenser, will fit under most front hoods with room to spare for controls, plumbing, service access, etc. In some, you could also stack 3 or more radiators together if desired or needed. Cut & cover the back floor, and a small Stanley/Doble type engine will fit there. Similar approach has succeeded with at least one Pinto and a couple other small modern cars I know of.
Now for bodywork, check out the TVR Tuscan Speed Six. <a href="http://www.tvr-eng.co.uk">TVR Tuscan Speed Six</a>. I've got the Sept. 2000 Maxim (British edition), with this on pp 188-189. That's the look I'd go for. With a few tweaks of my own.
Good luck with the '74 Jag. Sounds sweet.
I am now planning to go to the Sept 2002 meet in Seattle. See ya there.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2002 08:07AM
<HTML>The phorum server completely ignored the html link I put in the previous post. No problem. For the TVR Tuscan Speed Six:
[www.tvr-eng.co.uk]
Peter</HTML>
[www.tvr-eng.co.uk]
Peter</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2002 02:18PM
<HTML>Peter,
Steam electric talk is interesting; but like the EV-1 and Honda electric, and the new hybred cars, they have to be manufacturer subsidized to even be sold. Direct drive is most efficient and the lightest system. You are right, give the environmental fascists something that gives them warm fuzzy feelings and then forget it. Politics, pure and simple.
If you want the best milage and be cost efficient, use a highly supercharged Diesel with a 6 speed.
The 74 Jag is OUT. Seems that the cutoff date for no smog inspection is the end of 73, so we have to find a 72-73 V-12 E Type with a bum engine.
Can you just imagine trying to convince those apes in the DMV that your car is a steamer and they have no inspection for such a car??? Better to side step the issue.
For a Jag one condenser under the entire hood area and one in front, connected in series.
Old Besler data; 3" thick CLEAN aluminum fin and tube type condenses 10 HP per sq ft at ambient temperature. Proven data.
The Jag would have good 175 HP capacity. When drag racing, just let the overload valve blow, who cares.
See you in Seattle.
Jim</HTML>
Steam electric talk is interesting; but like the EV-1 and Honda electric, and the new hybred cars, they have to be manufacturer subsidized to even be sold. Direct drive is most efficient and the lightest system. You are right, give the environmental fascists something that gives them warm fuzzy feelings and then forget it. Politics, pure and simple.
If you want the best milage and be cost efficient, use a highly supercharged Diesel with a 6 speed.
The 74 Jag is OUT. Seems that the cutoff date for no smog inspection is the end of 73, so we have to find a 72-73 V-12 E Type with a bum engine.
Can you just imagine trying to convince those apes in the DMV that your car is a steamer and they have no inspection for such a car??? Better to side step the issue.
For a Jag one condenser under the entire hood area and one in front, connected in series.
Old Besler data; 3" thick CLEAN aluminum fin and tube type condenses 10 HP per sq ft at ambient temperature. Proven data.
The Jag would have good 175 HP capacity. When drag racing, just let the overload valve blow, who cares.
See you in Seattle.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2002 05:09PM
<HTML>Jim,
Your right about the DMV issue. I don't know about where you are but here in NYS things are getting quite strict for vehicle inspections and to avoid these issues is critical in many experimental vehicles. To try to register an experimental or even a wreck is becoming a big hassle if even possable at all. Around here a wreck needs to have a state inspection at the state capital and the paper work, time and costs involved are very prohibitive. I hope in the future, experimenters have a legal chassis to build from. It seems that it is becoming easier to build and fly an experimental aircraft than it is an automobile. The way I see it, it will take an individual or a group of individuals to put a better vehicle on the road without being forced to do so by government mandate. The area available for the experimenter to work in gets smaller and smaller while the strength of the auto companies continues to grow. This makes it tougher every day for guys like us.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Your right about the DMV issue. I don't know about where you are but here in NYS things are getting quite strict for vehicle inspections and to avoid these issues is critical in many experimental vehicles. To try to register an experimental or even a wreck is becoming a big hassle if even possable at all. Around here a wreck needs to have a state inspection at the state capital and the paper work, time and costs involved are very prohibitive. I hope in the future, experimenters have a legal chassis to build from. It seems that it is becoming easier to build and fly an experimental aircraft than it is an automobile. The way I see it, it will take an individual or a group of individuals to put a better vehicle on the road without being forced to do so by government mandate. The area available for the experimenter to work in gets smaller and smaller while the strength of the auto companies continues to grow. This makes it tougher every day for guys like us.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2002 07:28PM
<HTML>Hi Jim,
I forgot about the smog issue for a second there. Well, you can buy the '74 and put it on blocks until '04, when it will turn smog exempt. Yep, the old sidestep is the way to go here in the PRC. I told some flunkie at DMV that the enabling legislation explicitly only allows the State to emission-test/control cars with "internal combustion engines", and got this icy reply: "DMV will make the determination whether a vehicle is legal for use on public roads". The guy probably didn't know what an external combustion engine is. Silly me, I thought the _legislature_ made the laws. Oops, don't get me started.
Peter</HTML>
I forgot about the smog issue for a second there. Well, you can buy the '74 and put it on blocks until '04, when it will turn smog exempt. Yep, the old sidestep is the way to go here in the PRC. I told some flunkie at DMV that the enabling legislation explicitly only allows the State to emission-test/control cars with "internal combustion engines", and got this icy reply: "DMV will make the determination whether a vehicle is legal for use on public roads". The guy probably didn't know what an external combustion engine is. Silly me, I thought the _legislature_ made the laws. Oops, don't get me started.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: George K. Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2002 08:06PM
<HTML>Jim and 2Peters,
What is 10HP per square foot???-is that at a 10#/hp-hr rate or what. If so that would be 100#/hr per sqft---please leave enough space for the boiler as it would be a shame to use all that good space for condensing and not enough space for the proposed 30GPH boiler to use all that condensor space!
A few years ago I met with the assistant DRMV guy in Concord, NH(we are not as politically correct as many other states) and the idea of proposing an exception registration for testing purposes for a low pollution vehicle appeared possible at that time. I think using the "low emissions research car" approach might be possible in California, just would not be allowed to use it daily for commuting. That doesn't stop many in New Hampshire for registering there $40,000 trucks as agricultural vehicles and avoid 95% of the state registration taxes, meanwhile using them for commuting everyday--strange world we live in. Choosing the Jag body would be for reduced air drag and higher miles per gallon--of course, another politically correct plus!
George</HTML>
What is 10HP per square foot???-is that at a 10#/hp-hr rate or what. If so that would be 100#/hr per sqft---please leave enough space for the boiler as it would be a shame to use all that good space for condensing and not enough space for the proposed 30GPH boiler to use all that condensor space!
A few years ago I met with the assistant DRMV guy in Concord, NH(we are not as politically correct as many other states) and the idea of proposing an exception registration for testing purposes for a low pollution vehicle appeared possible at that time. I think using the "low emissions research car" approach might be possible in California, just would not be allowed to use it daily for commuting. That doesn't stop many in New Hampshire for registering there $40,000 trucks as agricultural vehicles and avoid 95% of the state registration taxes, meanwhile using them for commuting everyday--strange world we live in. Choosing the Jag body would be for reduced air drag and higher miles per gallon--of course, another politically correct plus!
George</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: March 17, 2002 02:26AM
<HTML>Peter,Peter and George,
What I was told was that the 25 year business for being out of the smog testing is not advancing now, it is now fixed at 1974 onwards. Sorry.
Several DMV proposed mandates in Calif. have been stopped with lawsuits and adverse publicity, which they hate.
10 hp/sq/ft was for 12 lb water rate.
Jim</HTML>
What I was told was that the 25 year business for being out of the smog testing is not advancing now, it is now fixed at 1974 onwards. Sorry.
Several DMV proposed mandates in Calif. have been stopped with lawsuits and adverse publicity, which they hate.
10 hp/sq/ft was for 12 lb water rate.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 17, 2002 12:17PM
<HTML>Hi Jim,
I followed it pretty closely as it involved a vehicle which I owned. If the law hasn't been changed since 1998, it provides (or provided, anyway) that starting in 2004, a vehicle would become exempt from smog testing once it reached 30 years of age. From 1998-2004, model year 1973 & older vehicles are exempt from smog testing. Before 1998, cars from 1965 & earlier (no emission controls) were exempt. So technically, the exempt model year is not currently advancing each year; that won't start until 2004. IF they haven't quietly changed the law since then, which I wouldn't put past them.
The reasoning behind the change was that after 25-30 years, most vehicles from any given model year have been junked and are too rare to bother with, also any surviving vehicles tend to be well cared for (otherwise they wouldn't have survived), are driven relatively few miles per year (due to higher maintenance requirements, and usually being kept as 2nd/fun/collector cars instead of daily drivers), & (for both preceding reasons) produce relatively little smog.
This was the reasoning of California legislator Tom McClintock, the law's sponsor, not of course the reasoning of CARB, DMV, EPA, etc, who had toyed with the idea of simply banning all cars over a certain age, and who opposed the legislation with horror stories of how old cars put out several times the smog per mile. Never mind that old cars are increasingly rare & are usually driven a corresponding fraction of the number of miles per year, or less. Well, I guess the California legislature did mind, because they passed the law.
In the several years leading up to this change, California regulators were going hog wild piling on draconian new testing & repair requirements, in an effort to remove demonized older cars from the road. This "automotive cleansing" pogrom led to political feedback through car clubs & concerned old-car owners, who found a friend & sponsor in Mr. McClintock, an old-car owner himself. Similar political feedback (from truck/SUV owners/manufacturers) has kept the US government fuel economy requirements (CAFE) at the same level for over a decade despite every effort by the environmental lobby, and promises to continue to do so for many years to come. Those who regulate cars in America have to tread very carefully. Not a value judgement, just a statement of political reality.
In light of such political realities, I think the real solution to pollution is steam technology, especially if retrofitted into older cars to replace high-pollution powerplants with motors producing less smog than even the latest IC designs. It has been noted that "Edison didn't bitch about darkness", and IMO it is up to us to develop & market consumer-preferred "light bulb" type solutions, instead of wasting time & resources complaining/politicking/regulating/mandating about problems. However, when regulators & pols get in the way of real solutions, some politicking is needed.
Peter</HTML>
I followed it pretty closely as it involved a vehicle which I owned. If the law hasn't been changed since 1998, it provides (or provided, anyway) that starting in 2004, a vehicle would become exempt from smog testing once it reached 30 years of age. From 1998-2004, model year 1973 & older vehicles are exempt from smog testing. Before 1998, cars from 1965 & earlier (no emission controls) were exempt. So technically, the exempt model year is not currently advancing each year; that won't start until 2004. IF they haven't quietly changed the law since then, which I wouldn't put past them.
The reasoning behind the change was that after 25-30 years, most vehicles from any given model year have been junked and are too rare to bother with, also any surviving vehicles tend to be well cared for (otherwise they wouldn't have survived), are driven relatively few miles per year (due to higher maintenance requirements, and usually being kept as 2nd/fun/collector cars instead of daily drivers), & (for both preceding reasons) produce relatively little smog.
This was the reasoning of California legislator Tom McClintock, the law's sponsor, not of course the reasoning of CARB, DMV, EPA, etc, who had toyed with the idea of simply banning all cars over a certain age, and who opposed the legislation with horror stories of how old cars put out several times the smog per mile. Never mind that old cars are increasingly rare & are usually driven a corresponding fraction of the number of miles per year, or less. Well, I guess the California legislature did mind, because they passed the law.
In the several years leading up to this change, California regulators were going hog wild piling on draconian new testing & repair requirements, in an effort to remove demonized older cars from the road. This "automotive cleansing" pogrom led to political feedback through car clubs & concerned old-car owners, who found a friend & sponsor in Mr. McClintock, an old-car owner himself. Similar political feedback (from truck/SUV owners/manufacturers) has kept the US government fuel economy requirements (CAFE) at the same level for over a decade despite every effort by the environmental lobby, and promises to continue to do so for many years to come. Those who regulate cars in America have to tread very carefully. Not a value judgement, just a statement of political reality.
In light of such political realities, I think the real solution to pollution is steam technology, especially if retrofitted into older cars to replace high-pollution powerplants with motors producing less smog than even the latest IC designs. It has been noted that "Edison didn't bitch about darkness", and IMO it is up to us to develop & market consumer-preferred "light bulb" type solutions, instead of wasting time & resources complaining/politicking/regulating/mandating about problems. However, when regulators & pols get in the way of real solutions, some politicking is needed.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: March 17, 2002 03:10PM
<HTML>Peter,
I am told that the DMV did indeed sneak in a change that took effect in January of last year.
The guy I rent my shop space from has a client with a nice 74 Ferrari Dino and he has gone through hell and he is the source of the information that he will never get out from under the smog law change. I think he knows the truth as it stands now. However the change you mention in 2004 may be in, I don't know for sure; but certainly will check tomorrow.
Anyhow as far as my proposed steam sports car is concerned, a 72-73 E Type is actually easier to get with a bad V-12 than a 74. The one I looked at had a really amateurish Ford 289 in it and LOTS of hacking and welding.
As a very astute collector told me: "The bigger the buracracy, the easier it is to screw them." Register the later car with a friend's address out of state, use his address, get yourself a drivers licence in that state and then bring the car in after 6 months. There is always a way around these idiots. One good way I found is to give some reporter a ride and let him drive the car, then you wouldn't guess what interest you can generate for a report on the news exposing this business.
Yes, lots of problems unless you pay the fee, then all is well. THAT is the reason behind the CARB and DMV mandates.
The problem as I see it, and I discussed this once with Bob Lutz, is that the collectors and manufacturers don't fight the environmental nazis with the same zeal as they use against the automobile. He agreed, expose their phony data. I do this every time I an interviewed about steamers.
As I said in my white paper, the steamer can be clean as a new gas car if the burner is done correctly, and it can burn renewable fuels. The old pressure atomizing is not too good, there are better designs to use.
Jim</HTML>
I am told that the DMV did indeed sneak in a change that took effect in January of last year.
The guy I rent my shop space from has a client with a nice 74 Ferrari Dino and he has gone through hell and he is the source of the information that he will never get out from under the smog law change. I think he knows the truth as it stands now. However the change you mention in 2004 may be in, I don't know for sure; but certainly will check tomorrow.
Anyhow as far as my proposed steam sports car is concerned, a 72-73 E Type is actually easier to get with a bad V-12 than a 74. The one I looked at had a really amateurish Ford 289 in it and LOTS of hacking and welding.
As a very astute collector told me: "The bigger the buracracy, the easier it is to screw them." Register the later car with a friend's address out of state, use his address, get yourself a drivers licence in that state and then bring the car in after 6 months. There is always a way around these idiots. One good way I found is to give some reporter a ride and let him drive the car, then you wouldn't guess what interest you can generate for a report on the news exposing this business.
Yes, lots of problems unless you pay the fee, then all is well. THAT is the reason behind the CARB and DMV mandates.
The problem as I see it, and I discussed this once with Bob Lutz, is that the collectors and manufacturers don't fight the environmental nazis with the same zeal as they use against the automobile. He agreed, expose their phony data. I do this every time I an interviewed about steamers.
As I said in my white paper, the steamer can be clean as a new gas car if the burner is done correctly, and it can burn renewable fuels. The old pressure atomizing is not too good, there are better designs to use.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 18, 2002 06:32AM
<HTML>Hi Jim,
Oh yeah, there are all kinds of perfectly legal dodges to use in car registration. I will write you privately about one used by a former tenant, you won't believe it. Hint: have a friend in the southeast. _Way_ southeast. Some folks out there may know this one. I don't want to give regulators any ideas on loopholes to close.
In the California papers recently there was some discussion of raising car registration fees. The entire focus of the discussion was raising money for the State general fund, nothing to do with cars. Officially, cars are registered for police, safety, smog, liability, & other reasons ("driving is a privilege, not a right"), while critics say that car registration is an Orwellian police-state measure -- like mandating, registering & inspecting shoes for use on public sidewalks ("walking is a privilege, not a right"?). I think vehicle registration is just a disguised tax.
In the old days, they never registered horse carriages, and consider the pollution/health/safety issues involved with those. Okay, off the soapbox for me.
Peter</HTML>
Oh yeah, there are all kinds of perfectly legal dodges to use in car registration. I will write you privately about one used by a former tenant, you won't believe it. Hint: have a friend in the southeast. _Way_ southeast. Some folks out there may know this one. I don't want to give regulators any ideas on loopholes to close.
In the California papers recently there was some discussion of raising car registration fees. The entire focus of the discussion was raising money for the State general fund, nothing to do with cars. Officially, cars are registered for police, safety, smog, liability, & other reasons ("driving is a privilege, not a right"), while critics say that car registration is an Orwellian police-state measure -- like mandating, registering & inspecting shoes for use on public sidewalks ("walking is a privilege, not a right"?). I think vehicle registration is just a disguised tax.
In the old days, they never registered horse carriages, and consider the pollution/health/safety issues involved with those. Okay, off the soapbox for me.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Motorcycles?
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 19, 2002 09:51PM
<HTML>Bruce,
Thank you for the information. I was able to secure a copy of each issue from Old Glory and I am anxiously awaiting their arrival.
Thanx everyone else for this most interesting thread.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Thank you for the information. I was able to secure a copy of each issue from Old Glory and I am anxiously awaiting their arrival.
Thanx everyone else for this most interesting thread.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Francis Church 111 (IP Logged)
Date: March 21, 2002 07:53AM
<HTML>Jim- What is your def of "envioromental Nazis"? Which Side are they on? Anyway, the paragraph the sticks out of your message is "the steamer can be clean as a new gas car if the burner is done correctly, and it can burn reusable fuel." I am designing a flash tube boiler and I need someone to rip it apart. If you would come to my web site [said the spider to the fly]and share with me a good web address I will send you some designs of boilers that I would like to have evaluated. My designs I feel are perpritary and I don't want to share with the general population in the phorum. But I do believe the boilers have merit and meet the needs of he "envioromental Nazis". They also meet the requirement of renewable fuel and as my minds eye sees it would fit in a very small Roadster. By the way my favorite Jag is the 160ss, rip out that big six and there is plenty of room for a couch, loveseat and the lamont boiler.</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Motorcycles?
Posted by: Francis Church 111 (IP Logged)
Date: March 21, 2002 03:11PM
<HTML>Peter- You're onto the right road, silence. What a way to hear the Bitchen Stereo with a copy of Harleys sounds playing real load on some of those 2in Bose speakers. Man, you let out the clutch{what ever} and leave a half mile of burnt rubber and the sound of burning rubber without the sound of pistons ripping out the soul of your block. Boy what an idea!!!!! Frank</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: March 22, 2002 03:04PM
<HTML>Francis,
OK; but let's not start a political discussion on this. We all have our own views on this subject. Let's stick to the technical aspects of steam cars in this web site. Since you put it on the site, I will answer it; but I will not continue on this course again.
Read my white paper on this site.
Environmental nazis, fascists is a better term, are the ones that are screaming at any legislator that has his hand out, and who want to destroy the automobile industry, stop any nuclear power, tear down dams and shut down any fossil fuel powerplant. They are determined that everyone follow their demands and rush to court and sue with the drop of a hat to attempt to force their will on everybody in the U.S.
What really irritates me, is that the legislators, both state and federal, listen to them and actually believe their warped and false data claims. No one in the automotive/power industry seems inclined to go back after them with the same determination, to show up their phony data and to silence them publically.
Sure we need to protect the environment; but this is not the sensible way to do it. Attacking every source of power we have in place now. And substitute what?
They are totally ignorant from any engineering point of view and use deliberately false data to support their position. The California Air Resources Board is one of the worst offenders. Just recall their mandate for pure electric cars, when there is no battery that will work, nor is there going to be one. They are still sticking with this idiot idea. Their arrogance is monumental.
The hybrids, fuel cells, and the hydrogen rubbish are all subsidized by the various governments. The Prius really costs over $80,000 to make.
We in California are trying to eliminate the forced use of alcohol as a substitute for MTBE. Reformulated gasoline is on hand and does the job as well as anything. But; Archer Daniels Midland, the largest alcohol producer, is stated to be the second largest contributor to Bush's and Cheny's pocketbook. The corn/alcohol industry is 63% subsidized with taxpayer's money to even make this a workable fuel additive. Do you smell payola? I do.
End of my ranting.
I have not seen your web site on your proposed boiler designs.
Jim</HTML>
OK; but let's not start a political discussion on this. We all have our own views on this subject. Let's stick to the technical aspects of steam cars in this web site. Since you put it on the site, I will answer it; but I will not continue on this course again.
Read my white paper on this site.
Environmental nazis, fascists is a better term, are the ones that are screaming at any legislator that has his hand out, and who want to destroy the automobile industry, stop any nuclear power, tear down dams and shut down any fossil fuel powerplant. They are determined that everyone follow their demands and rush to court and sue with the drop of a hat to attempt to force their will on everybody in the U.S.
What really irritates me, is that the legislators, both state and federal, listen to them and actually believe their warped and false data claims. No one in the automotive/power industry seems inclined to go back after them with the same determination, to show up their phony data and to silence them publically.
Sure we need to protect the environment; but this is not the sensible way to do it. Attacking every source of power we have in place now. And substitute what?
They are totally ignorant from any engineering point of view and use deliberately false data to support their position. The California Air Resources Board is one of the worst offenders. Just recall their mandate for pure electric cars, when there is no battery that will work, nor is there going to be one. They are still sticking with this idiot idea. Their arrogance is monumental.
The hybrids, fuel cells, and the hydrogen rubbish are all subsidized by the various governments. The Prius really costs over $80,000 to make.
We in California are trying to eliminate the forced use of alcohol as a substitute for MTBE. Reformulated gasoline is on hand and does the job as well as anything. But; Archer Daniels Midland, the largest alcohol producer, is stated to be the second largest contributor to Bush's and Cheny's pocketbook. The corn/alcohol industry is 63% subsidized with taxpayer's money to even make this a workable fuel additive. Do you smell payola? I do.
End of my ranting.
I have not seen your web site on your proposed boiler designs.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: Ron Parola (IP Logged)
Date: March 24, 2002 01:33AM
<HTML>Well gents I dropped my smog license 2 years ago because I felt it(theCARB) had become much less interested in cleaning the air (witness MTBE in fuel) than keeping their jobs and keeping federal funding coming. But to come up with a clean AND practical steam car?, I donno . The emissions regs are TOUGH, and not just running, there are SHED tests, which measure HC and CO readings on cool down, there are cold, warm and hot restart tests idle, no load and high load and decel tests. ( In cal we even test HC's off new pavement!!). I would venture to say a new steam car couldn't happen with any of OUR resources (ask Ted Pritchert). Might I suggest a simpler start: how about a motorhome genset, low power; 10 to 15 hp, waste heat for heating or hot water, sharing the vehicle's cooling system for condensing? And the emissions regs are much looser (for now). Possibly a good learing excerzise. Ron P</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: LeRoy Pea (IP Logged)
Date: May 16, 2004 05:45PM
<HTML>The Doble steam car was the fastest car on the street in 1931. The only noise it made was the screeching tires as it turned a corner.
Doble patented the oil injection system that lubed the cylinders during steam operation.
The treasurer of Doble Co. ran off with the corporate funds and the company folded.
Drawback: it used kerosene to create the steam.
Other good car "devices" see [iaesr.homestead.com];
Doble patented the oil injection system that lubed the cylinders during steam operation.
The treasurer of Doble Co. ran off with the corporate funds and the company folded.
Drawback: it used kerosene to create the steam.
Other good car "devices" see [iaesr.homestead.com];
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: freeman (IP Logged)
Date: September 12, 2004 06:20PM
<HTML>understand you completeley my friend i have a system i would wish to try only the resources are limited, and my surety on competance in modern times is not to full value, however if a making mode of transport that is entirely self sufficent, with using water as a main source of power and totally eradicating petrol, gas and any fossil fuel if creation of such an article which could accelerate to 100mph with engine braking and reverse valves tey may even sell</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: BillHull (IP Logged)
Date: March 11, 2005 06:14PM
<HTML>In reference to the issue of which type of vehicle to build a street legal steamer out of, may I humbly suggest the tried and true three wheeler?
A design such as the Tri Magnum gives stability and handling comparable to many of the best sports cars, can be fully enclosed, and sweetest of all, is classified as a motorcycle by federal regulations (no smog). The issues of rear end differential are non-existent, and any power plant that could be fitted into a motorcycle could also be placed in the rear compartment of a well designed three wheeler. Locate a used VW Bug front beam for the front end, and design whatever style of rear suspension you like for the rear wheel. The steam engine and rear wheel could be incorporated into a single swingarm. You might check out threewheelers.com for some ideas. I mean, the idea of a steam powered vehicle is pretty strange to most of the population, why not put it in a three wheeled car and freak them completely out?</HTML>
A design such as the Tri Magnum gives stability and handling comparable to many of the best sports cars, can be fully enclosed, and sweetest of all, is classified as a motorcycle by federal regulations (no smog). The issues of rear end differential are non-existent, and any power plant that could be fitted into a motorcycle could also be placed in the rear compartment of a well designed three wheeler. Locate a used VW Bug front beam for the front end, and design whatever style of rear suspension you like for the rear wheel. The steam engine and rear wheel could be incorporated into a single swingarm. You might check out threewheelers.com for some ideas. I mean, the idea of a steam powered vehicle is pretty strange to most of the population, why not put it in a three wheeled car and freak them completely out?</HTML>
Re: Selling Steam Roadsters?
Posted by: BillHull (IP Logged)
Date: March 11, 2005 06:16PM
<HTML>In reference to the issue of which type of vehicle to build a street legal steamer out of, may I humbly suggest the tried and true three wheeler?
A design such as the Tri Magnum gives stability and handling comparable to many of the best sports cars, can be fully enclosed, and sweetest of all, is classified as a motorcycle by federal regulations (no smog). The issues of rear end differential are non-existent, and any power plant that could be fitted into a motorcycle could also be placed in the rear compartment of a well designed three wheeler. Locate a used VW Bug front beam for the front end, and design whatever style of rear suspension you like for the rear wheel. The steam engine and rear wheel could be incorporated into a single swingarm. You might check out threewheelers.com for some ideas. I mean, the idea of a steam powered vehicle is pretty strange to most of the population, why not put it in a three wheeled car and freak them completely out?</HTML>
A design such as the Tri Magnum gives stability and handling comparable to many of the best sports cars, can be fully enclosed, and sweetest of all, is classified as a motorcycle by federal regulations (no smog). The issues of rear end differential are non-existent, and any power plant that could be fitted into a motorcycle could also be placed in the rear compartment of a well designed three wheeler. Locate a used VW Bug front beam for the front end, and design whatever style of rear suspension you like for the rear wheel. The steam engine and rear wheel could be incorporated into a single swingarm. You might check out threewheelers.com for some ideas. I mean, the idea of a steam powered vehicle is pretty strange to most of the population, why not put it in a three wheeled car and freak them completely out?</HTML>
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