1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Oil Seperation
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 06, 2002 06:32PM
<HTML>I have been reading a few books and articles on oil removal from steam and many companies publish test results that seem to contradict the results of other independant testers. The results seem to be from astounding down to just average, with some vendors not even stating a maximum amount of residual oil left in the steam when using their device.
There was a manufacturer building a seperator with a 2 inch inlet and outlet and 50 psi inlet pressure, that would guarantee a maximum of 1 part in 150,000, oil to water in the condensed steam. The design is very simple, self cleaning, and was about 18 inches tall. Their catalog is full of testimonials from satisfied customers indicating as low as 1 part in a 1,000,000 of residual oil and less than 90 parts per 1,000,000 of solids.
On an exhaust steam line, prior to the condensing, what would be a satisfactory ratio of oil to steam or to water ? An amount low enough to prevent condenser & boiler trouble under the most severe conditions. I would like not to be able to detect any but that seems impossable unless we use no oil. I figure with all you people running steam and thankfully so many good memories out there, someone must have seen some numbers for this one.
Peter Heid</HTML>
There was a manufacturer building a seperator with a 2 inch inlet and outlet and 50 psi inlet pressure, that would guarantee a maximum of 1 part in 150,000, oil to water in the condensed steam. The design is very simple, self cleaning, and was about 18 inches tall. Their catalog is full of testimonials from satisfied customers indicating as low as 1 part in a 1,000,000 of residual oil and less than 90 parts per 1,000,000 of solids.
On an exhaust steam line, prior to the condensing, what would be a satisfactory ratio of oil to steam or to water ? An amount low enough to prevent condenser & boiler trouble under the most severe conditions. I would like not to be able to detect any but that seems impossable unless we use no oil. I figure with all you people running steam and thankfully so many good memories out there, someone must have seen some numbers for this one.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Oil Seperation
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: March 07, 2002 11:45AM
<HTML>Have you read my paper on the separation of oil and water, posted on the papers page of the NorthEast part of the SACA site <www.steamautomobile.com>?
I have not tried to measure the oil remaining in my feed water, but when draining the tank at the end of the season, I see only a thin sheen of colour on the last of the water coming out of the tank.
I have found it necessary to have two separators. Steam/oil separators remove only liquid oil, and some is vaporized while going through the engine. That condenses with the water and must be separated from same.</HTML>
I have not tried to measure the oil remaining in my feed water, but when draining the tank at the end of the season, I see only a thin sheen of colour on the last of the water coming out of the tank.
I have found it necessary to have two separators. Steam/oil separators remove only liquid oil, and some is vaporized while going through the engine. That condenses with the water and must be separated from same.</HTML>
Re: Oil Separation
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 07, 2002 01:15PM
<HTML>David,
I read your article again, just before I wrote this. The principals of action used in the separator I have found to be of the best reported effectiveness are not the same used in your design. The design I have seen reported as the most effective uses the inertia of the suspended matter to remove itself from the path of the steam as the steam changes direction. Particle sizes as small as 0.000005 inches are said to be removed in this manner, provided the trap is of correct design. The catalog mentions that, the use of oils containing more than 3% animal fat should be avoided. I'm sure the use of animal fat is not necessary to insure oil quality, and as you recomend, a 100% mineral based oil is easier to separate.
A 2 inch inlet/outlet separator is about 10" x 10" x 16" when rated for 50 PSI steam, this includes a small resevoir. A Baker of this size inlet would be about 1' x 2' x 2' Pressure drop is almost non-existant across it. The condensed water has been used for dying silks and ice making as well as boiler feedwater with no further treatment. Many satisified customers are listed in their catalog from Allis Chalmers to Yale University including the Locomobile company. Some companies sent in their test results indicating the oil left in the condensate was less than 1 part in a million. The worst result shown was about 1 part in 300,000, or twice better than their guarentee.
Is this just a vapor dream or is there a separator out there that is of simple design, self cleaning, produces very little flow restriction, requires a modest space and is that effective ?
Peter Heid</HTML>
I read your article again, just before I wrote this. The principals of action used in the separator I have found to be of the best reported effectiveness are not the same used in your design. The design I have seen reported as the most effective uses the inertia of the suspended matter to remove itself from the path of the steam as the steam changes direction. Particle sizes as small as 0.000005 inches are said to be removed in this manner, provided the trap is of correct design. The catalog mentions that, the use of oils containing more than 3% animal fat should be avoided. I'm sure the use of animal fat is not necessary to insure oil quality, and as you recomend, a 100% mineral based oil is easier to separate.
A 2 inch inlet/outlet separator is about 10" x 10" x 16" when rated for 50 PSI steam, this includes a small resevoir. A Baker of this size inlet would be about 1' x 2' x 2' Pressure drop is almost non-existant across it. The condensed water has been used for dying silks and ice making as well as boiler feedwater with no further treatment. Many satisified customers are listed in their catalog from Allis Chalmers to Yale University including the Locomobile company. Some companies sent in their test results indicating the oil left in the condensate was less than 1 part in a million. The worst result shown was about 1 part in 300,000, or twice better than their guarentee.
Is this just a vapor dream or is there a separator out there that is of simple design, self cleaning, produces very little flow restriction, requires a modest space and is that effective ?
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Oil Separation
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: March 08, 2002 09:59AM
<HTML>The only experience I have with an oil separator in on my 35-foot boat. I built a removable draw in the hot well. All the return water must cross through this draw. The draw has layers of ABS plastic sheet, five inch wide by twelve inch long and spaced one eight inch apart. They are positioned at an angle of seven degrees, so all the water must go down slightly to get to the other side. I used a complete four by eight sheet of material, that gives me sixty-four Square feet of area. ABS plastic will stand 200 degrees F continuous and up to 230 degrees for brief exposure. ABS is like a magnet to oil. I can pull the draw out and put in a bucket of degreaser for cleaning. Now that I have a Stanley I have been thinking of ways to build an oil separator. The ABS will work on the cold side of the condenser. I am not so sure if it will take the heat just before the condenser. The condenser on the boat is part of the keel and I have drained some oil from it at the end of each season, but very little. I could never see oil in the water on the clean side of the hot well, and never had oil float on the water when I did a boiler blow-down next to the dock.
I have many other problems to solve on the Stanley first before I get into adding an oil separator, but it is constantly in the back of my mind.
What other separators are available on the commercial side?
Rolly</HTML>
I have many other problems to solve on the Stanley first before I get into adding an oil separator, but it is constantly in the back of my mind.
What other separators are available on the commercial side?
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Oil Separation
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 08, 2002 05:57PM
<HTML>I don't know about commerically available, but the oil separator I am talking about is the Cochrane, originally available from the Harrison Safety Boiler Works. Like most steam products of days gone, no modern trace is to be found. The old catalog is available on line for $20.00 or so. The copy I have is from 1920 and I would be glad to send a copy of a drawing or two but the catalog is full of designs and information. The separator could be easily reproduced for exhaust steam under 50 pounds per inch. The drawings appear to be to scale and with dimensional information provided.
It basically involves a ribbed plate upon which the steam is focused. The lighter steam turns the corner while the particles larger than vapor are subject to greater inertia and impacted on the ribbed plate to drain into the resevoir. The ribs keep the steam from washing the oil back into the flow of steam. The ports that allow the steam to flow around the plate are constructed so that they provide almost unrestricted flow. A person could experiment with a design and probably, reasonably quickly develop a working model of the size needed from scaleing the dimensions in the catalog. The other route would be a little engineering to figure a rate of flow that would propel the smallest sized particle, you desire to remove, at a rate high enough to provide the inertia to remove it from the steam flow.
Even systems with forced circulation boilers, having no carbonizing troubles, could still benefit from the greater efficiency found with less oil in the condenser(s).
Peter Heid</HTML>
It basically involves a ribbed plate upon which the steam is focused. The lighter steam turns the corner while the particles larger than vapor are subject to greater inertia and impacted on the ribbed plate to drain into the resevoir. The ribs keep the steam from washing the oil back into the flow of steam. The ports that allow the steam to flow around the plate are constructed so that they provide almost unrestricted flow. A person could experiment with a design and probably, reasonably quickly develop a working model of the size needed from scaleing the dimensions in the catalog. The other route would be a little engineering to figure a rate of flow that would propel the smallest sized particle, you desire to remove, at a rate high enough to provide the inertia to remove it from the steam flow.
Even systems with forced circulation boilers, having no carbonizing troubles, could still benefit from the greater efficiency found with less oil in the condenser(s).
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Oil Separation
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: March 09, 2002 11:41AM
<HTML>The Cochrane is a very old design, and was one of the ones discussed in ASME vol. 24 item #150, 1903, pp. 341-348. It was from this discussion session I got the idea of the steam oil separator I have used these thirty odd years.
A major theme of that discussion was that most oil separators worked very well long enough to pass the gaurantee period, but after that they had to be cleaned regularly. The cleaning usually required boiling them out with hot lye! The Baker design does not rely on collecting the oil on a clean surface and seems to do well without cleaning more often than seasonally. In fact I have not cleaned mine for several years and the inside of the top of my condenser is still free of oil.</HTML>
A major theme of that discussion was that most oil separators worked very well long enough to pass the gaurantee period, but after that they had to be cleaned regularly. The cleaning usually required boiling them out with hot lye! The Baker design does not rely on collecting the oil on a clean surface and seems to do well without cleaning more often than seasonally. In fact I have not cleaned mine for several years and the inside of the top of my condenser is still free of oil.</HTML>
Re: Oil Separation
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 10, 2002 09:54PM
<HTML>The Baker design does have the draw backs of large physical size, reduced efficiency and reduced flow rates. The Chohhrane, if it indeed does require a clean surface that gets soiled in use, would seem to be greatly improved by the use of a teflon coating much like that of a frying pan on the separator collecting surface. Teflon coatings can withstand temperatures far greater than most exhaust steam and they can be very abrasion resistant. The stuff can even bought in a spray can that is remarkable in duralibility and very low in friction on sliding surfaces. I forget the brand name of the stuff but if someone is interested I can look it up. Maybe yesterdays designs can be perfected with the products of todays technologies giving everyone a better separator.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Oil Separation
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2002 11:28AM
<HTML>It is large so the flow is slow enough that the steam can not pick up any oil on the sufaces. But that same slow flow means little if any pressure drop for the exhaust steam. In any case, it is not so large that you can't fit it somewhere and it is one of only two successful devices I have seen fitted to Stanleys. The other is a proprietary device offered by the Goold brothers in England, and quite expensive, so much they don't even give the price in their catalog. From what I have observed by feelingfor oil in the tops of condensers, it is not as good as the Baker type in practice.</HTML>
Re: Oil Separation
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2002 11:35AM
<HTML>I forgot to mention that the unit the Goolds are selling is both larger and heavier than my home made Baker.</HTML>
Re: Oil Separation
Posted by: chuk williams (IP Logged)
Date: March 31, 2002 12:52AM
<HTML>Peter--
Thanks for your offer of a copy of the newest oil separater design-
I have tried to send you several emails to your netheaven address, with
no success---I keep getting a "not deliverable' message because your
server is kicking back my email because it's "spam"--the spam filter
isn't letting my emails thru..........
Anyway I would like to see the info and drawing that you have-
the 1 inch inlet and outlet sounds just about the right size for my car.
I would prefer emailing you directly-but like I mentioned-I can't
get thru......is there an alternate address where you can receive email?
Cheers--Chuk</HTML>
Thanks for your offer of a copy of the newest oil separater design-
I have tried to send you several emails to your netheaven address, with
no success---I keep getting a "not deliverable' message because your
server is kicking back my email because it's "spam"--the spam filter
isn't letting my emails thru..........
Anyway I would like to see the info and drawing that you have-
the 1 inch inlet and outlet sounds just about the right size for my car.
I would prefer emailing you directly-but like I mentioned-I can't
get thru......is there an alternate address where you can receive email?
Cheers--Chuk</HTML>
Re: Oil Separation
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 31, 2002 02:24AM
<HTML>Chuk,
Sorry about the email issue. John Woodson has graciously agreed to let me put the information on his site in the papers section. I will get to him soon, so much easier than the individual responses I have been trying to cope with. I will include dimensioned drawings and associated information for a couple separators I have found. There will probably be an update also, as I am looking at the procedures and devices used in the steam extraction of oil by drillers and refiners. I hope I can help with the information.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Sorry about the email issue. John Woodson has graciously agreed to let me put the information on his site in the papers section. I will get to him soon, so much easier than the individual responses I have been trying to cope with. I will include dimensioned drawings and associated information for a couple separators I have found. There will probably be an update also, as I am looking at the procedures and devices used in the steam extraction of oil by drillers and refiners. I hope I can help with the information.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Oil Separation
Posted by: Christopher W. Roberts (IP Logged)
Date: April 10, 2002 04:31PM
<HTML> I have a home made oil seperator installed in my 1922 Stanley with fair results. It does seperate oil from the steam but I am not sure as to how much it is actually seperating. It is about 24" long and has 4 fans anchored to it to spin the steam and throw the oil to the sides. Some oil still get's through. The best solution is to elimante all oil before the condenser on later condensing Stanley's. Oil will be returned to the water tank and will be pumped into the boiler no matter how clean you keep the water tank. I have been cleaning out the tank on a yearly basis and I always get oil out when I clean it with kerocene. This is due to the face it was ran for many decades with no seperator of any kind, and to the fact that the oil seperator does not get 100 % of the oil out. Added to the fact that the condenser has oil, and will drain some oil each run into the water tank. The only "fool proof" solution is to simpily run the car as a non condensing car. Tom Ackerman has don this on his 1922 Stanley, runing the line from the condenser to the rear of the car.
On my 1922 Stanley I have a non condensing valve at the engine. Once opened, the steam exausts right into the atmosphere, bypassing the oil seperator and the condenser. On the daon side of this, the car will run about 1/2 of the distance between water stops. Around town this is really not a problem, but once you get on the open road, water may be a little harder to get.
CWR</HTML>
On my 1922 Stanley I have a non condensing valve at the engine. Once opened, the steam exausts right into the atmosphere, bypassing the oil seperator and the condenser. On the daon side of this, the car will run about 1/2 of the distance between water stops. Around town this is really not a problem, but once you get on the open road, water may be a little harder to get.
CWR</HTML>
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