1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Doble-Detroit
Posted by: patrick (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2002 12:20AM
<HTML>im looking for the blueprints/design schematics for a Doble-Detroit E-14 engine. does anyone know where i can buy of a copy or temporarily barrow a set to copy them? any recomendations would be helpfull.</HTML>
Re: Doble-Detroit
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2002 02:35PM
<HTML>Patrick,
There is no Doble-Detroit E-14 engine.
E-14 was a Series E car, now in my shop getting a new engine crankcase assembly.
The Series E is a four cylinder Woolf double compound engine and the Doble-Detroit was a two cylinder simple unaflow. Which one are you talking about?
Why would you want drawings of the engine, to build one? There are numerous better steam automobile engine designs available than the Series E engine.
It is huge, heavy and I know would cost well over $75,000.00 to reproduce. The patterns and core boxes for the new crankcase for the E engine alone cost me $10,000, the new crankshafts were $5500 and the machining and casting for the crankcase was about $6,000 each, the valve gear was about $3,000 each.
The cylinder block patterns for the E engine were priced at $15,000 and that was just a rough estimate. And, the Series E cylinders were not the same left and right, they were mirror images of each other, doubling the cost of making them. Abner's elite engineering.
Pick a better engine. Talk to Jerry Hackett about the Doble F engine, he and his group are trying to make some again, if you must have a Doble engine.
There are lots of better ways to go than a Doble engine. They are fine when in a Doble car and not adaptable to any modern chassis, just way too big.
Think about a three cylinder poppet valve unaflow, much better engine.
After decades of working on Dobles, I assure you there are better ways to go than to try to reproduce a Series E Doble engine.
Jim</HTML>
There is no Doble-Detroit E-14 engine.
E-14 was a Series E car, now in my shop getting a new engine crankcase assembly.
The Series E is a four cylinder Woolf double compound engine and the Doble-Detroit was a two cylinder simple unaflow. Which one are you talking about?
Why would you want drawings of the engine, to build one? There are numerous better steam automobile engine designs available than the Series E engine.
It is huge, heavy and I know would cost well over $75,000.00 to reproduce. The patterns and core boxes for the new crankcase for the E engine alone cost me $10,000, the new crankshafts were $5500 and the machining and casting for the crankcase was about $6,000 each, the valve gear was about $3,000 each.
The cylinder block patterns for the E engine were priced at $15,000 and that was just a rough estimate. And, the Series E cylinders were not the same left and right, they were mirror images of each other, doubling the cost of making them. Abner's elite engineering.
Pick a better engine. Talk to Jerry Hackett about the Doble F engine, he and his group are trying to make some again, if you must have a Doble engine.
There are lots of better ways to go than a Doble engine. They are fine when in a Doble car and not adaptable to any modern chassis, just way too big.
Think about a three cylinder poppet valve unaflow, much better engine.
After decades of working on Dobles, I assure you there are better ways to go than to try to reproduce a Series E Doble engine.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Doble-Detroit
Posted by: Patrick (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2002 04:34PM
<HTML>it was just an idea, and thank you for the recomendation, but after a little research last night, as you said, they arnt the best. Im really not to sure where to start. the engine i need has to be durable, very high rpm, and a lot of power/torque. while im on the topic, i am looking for a company that can produce a boiler for me, fire tube, 30" diamiter, 1680 tubes 18" long, 26" total in hight. i do have rough sketches that i have done on AutoCad, but im not sure of how much it would weigh or how much psi it can max at. id like to have somewhere of around 2000 psi or more and regulate the out put to the engines specs. The chassie is not a problem i am more than capabule of building my own, but i would need the drawings to design a drivetrain. the reason why i was asking about a doble is because he was known as a perfectionist, but if there is better please list them. any recomendations would be helpful, thank you for your time.</HTML>
Re: Doble-Detroit
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 13, 2002 08:12AM
<HTML>Hi Patrick,
There are people who build replacement boilers for Stanleys, and they could probably build one to your specs, except for the pressure. Stanley boilers usually run at about 500 psi. Typical firetubes will flatten well below 2000 psi. The 1906 Stanley racer ran something like 1200 psi, & that's pushing it. A 2000 psi firetube unit is theoretically possible but would be quite heavy among other problems. Available oils and materials impose practical limits on steam pressure/temp. A monotube boiler is much lighter, cheaper, and more buildable in a typical shop than a Stanley type boiler.
High rpm is possible but tricky with steam engines, esp for homebuilt engines. High-pressure steam is heavier and doesn't move the way air does in IC engines. That is a complex and controversial subject, and I won't wade into it here, except to note that IMO a 2-cyl Stanley-like engine @ ~1000 rpm max is more easily built from scratch in a home shop than a high-rpm or multicylinder steam engine (any type is quite a project, though). Ray HasBrouck & Graham Baker (try a websearch @ yahoo.com) build steam engines w/o costly castings or forgings; info on their methods is on web, and might give you some ideas.
A custom chassis can be designed around almost any engine. For higher wheel speed, you can upsize the engine and over-gear it (engine turns slower than wheels), as in the Stanley speed record cars (127+ mph) and some of the Stanley sports cars. The SACA Storeroom has blueprints for a few engines & boilers, and you can find Stanley boiler builders thru the Stanley Museum and probably here in this forum.
Try the links pages here @ stanleysteamers.com and at
[www.steamautomobile.com]
(SACA) for various resources. A little websurfing/searchengining will turn up all sorts of interesting and useful info. Some of the personal websites listed have great links pages. Note differing info & opinions in this field. I tend to favor road-proven types of designs & design parameters myself. There are all sorts of tradeoffs and possible improvements involved.
Just some ideas; hope this helps.
Peter</HTML>
There are people who build replacement boilers for Stanleys, and they could probably build one to your specs, except for the pressure. Stanley boilers usually run at about 500 psi. Typical firetubes will flatten well below 2000 psi. The 1906 Stanley racer ran something like 1200 psi, & that's pushing it. A 2000 psi firetube unit is theoretically possible but would be quite heavy among other problems. Available oils and materials impose practical limits on steam pressure/temp. A monotube boiler is much lighter, cheaper, and more buildable in a typical shop than a Stanley type boiler.
High rpm is possible but tricky with steam engines, esp for homebuilt engines. High-pressure steam is heavier and doesn't move the way air does in IC engines. That is a complex and controversial subject, and I won't wade into it here, except to note that IMO a 2-cyl Stanley-like engine @ ~1000 rpm max is more easily built from scratch in a home shop than a high-rpm or multicylinder steam engine (any type is quite a project, though). Ray HasBrouck & Graham Baker (try a websearch @ yahoo.com) build steam engines w/o costly castings or forgings; info on their methods is on web, and might give you some ideas.
A custom chassis can be designed around almost any engine. For higher wheel speed, you can upsize the engine and over-gear it (engine turns slower than wheels), as in the Stanley speed record cars (127+ mph) and some of the Stanley sports cars. The SACA Storeroom has blueprints for a few engines & boilers, and you can find Stanley boiler builders thru the Stanley Museum and probably here in this forum.
Try the links pages here @ stanleysteamers.com and at
[www.steamautomobile.com]
(SACA) for various resources. A little websurfing/searchengining will turn up all sorts of interesting and useful info. Some of the personal websites listed have great links pages. Note differing info & opinions in this field. I tend to favor road-proven types of designs & design parameters myself. There are all sorts of tradeoffs and possible improvements involved.
Just some ideas; hope this helps.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Doble-Detroit
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: March 13, 2002 03:24PM
<HTML>Patrick,
For God's sake and your own safety, and that of others, FORGET any fire tube boiler. PLEASE!! 2,000 psi is WAY beyond what they can deliver and certainly a bomb in waiting.
They are good in restored Stanleys; but for a modern car, totally hopeless, way too heavy, won't produce enough steam and cannot be forced very far or the water lifts off the crown sheet and it warps and burns out. In years past Carl Guth tried a small blower on his Stanley touring and promptly destroyed the boiler. Not the way to go at all.
Use Woodson's web site and read George Nutz's article on the Lamont. That is the way to go.
As to an engine, there are many designs that would work. The literature in the SACA and other archives are full of them.
Depending on how you plan to install it, a three cylinder poppet valve unaflow, maybe with 4"X5" cylinders would be super and most powerfull. There certainly is no need for a high RPM engine, use the torque ability of the engine for power. They produce plenty of it and will give you all the performance you could ask for.
Attend some SACA meets and talk to people. Find out what was done and worked, then plan your engine.
Jim</HTML>
For God's sake and your own safety, and that of others, FORGET any fire tube boiler. PLEASE!! 2,000 psi is WAY beyond what they can deliver and certainly a bomb in waiting.
They are good in restored Stanleys; but for a modern car, totally hopeless, way too heavy, won't produce enough steam and cannot be forced very far or the water lifts off the crown sheet and it warps and burns out. In years past Carl Guth tried a small blower on his Stanley touring and promptly destroyed the boiler. Not the way to go at all.
Use Woodson's web site and read George Nutz's article on the Lamont. That is the way to go.
As to an engine, there are many designs that would work. The literature in the SACA and other archives are full of them.
Depending on how you plan to install it, a three cylinder poppet valve unaflow, maybe with 4"X5" cylinders would be super and most powerfull. There certainly is no need for a high RPM engine, use the torque ability of the engine for power. They produce plenty of it and will give you all the performance you could ask for.
Attend some SACA meets and talk to people. Find out what was done and worked, then plan your engine.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Steam Plans
Posted by: John Wulf (IP Logged)
Date: November 19, 2004 04:55PM
<HTML>I have a friend that wants to build a steam engine. Was interested in knowing if there are any schematics online, that he can download? Got your name from a previous post.
Thanks</HTML>
Thanks</HTML>
Re: Steam Plans
Posted by: John Wulf (IP Logged)
Date: November 21, 2004 05:24PM
<HTML>What is woodson's website?</HTML>
Re: Doble-Detroit
Posted by: Leigh C.K. Case (IP Logged)
Date: May 13, 2006 07:11AM
<HTML>Need to know specs f/ high pressure boiler used in steam shovels, to incl. blueprints, etc...
Considering Welding one together to fit, have steel dealers who can slip roll the steel for me, however I'm not a boilermaker, just one damned good welder up to any challenge.
<a href="mailto:ashenfern@webtv.net?subject=Re: Doble-Detroit">Peter Brow</a> wrote:
>
> Hi Patrick,
>
> There are people who build replacement boilers for Stanleys,
> and they could probably build one to your specs, except for
> the pressure. Stanley boilers usually run at about 500 psi.
> Typical firetubes will flatten well below 2000 psi. The 1906
> Stanley racer ran something like 1200 psi, & that's pushing
> it. A 2000 psi firetube unit is theoretically possible but
> would be quite heavy among other problems. Available oils
> and materials impose practical limits on steam
> pressure/temp. A monotube boiler is much lighter, cheaper,
> and more buildable in a typical shop than a Stanley type
> boiler.
>
> High rpm is possible but tricky with steam engines, esp for
> homebuilt engines. High-pressure steam is heavier and
> doesn't move the way air does in IC engines. That is a
> complex and controversial subject, and I won't wade into it
> here, except to note that IMO a 2-cyl Stanley-like engine @
> ~1000 rpm max is more easily built from scratch in a home
> shop than a high-rpm or multicylinder steam engine (any type
> is quite a project, though). Ray HasBrouck & Graham Baker
> (try a websearch @ yahoo.com) build steam engines w/o costly
> castings or forgings; info on their methods is on web, and
> might give you some ideas.
>
> A custom chassis can be designed around almost any engine.
> For higher wheel speed, you can upsize the engine and
> over-gear it (engine turns slower than wheels), as in the
> Stanley speed record cars (127+ mph) and some of the Stanley
> sports cars. The SACA Storeroom has blueprints for a few
> engines & boilers, and you can find Stanley boiler builders
> thru the Stanley Museum and probably here in this forum.
>
> Try the links pages here @ stanleysteamers.com and at
>
> [www.steamautomobile.com]
>
> (SACA) for various resources. A little
> websurfing/searchengining will turn up all sorts of
> interesting and useful info. Some of the personal websites
> listed have great links pages. Note differing info &
> opinions in this field. I tend to favor road-proven types of
> designs & design parameters myself. There are all sorts of
> tradeoffs and possible improvements involved.
>
> Just some ideas; hope this helps.
>
> Peter</HTML>
Considering Welding one together to fit, have steel dealers who can slip roll the steel for me, however I'm not a boilermaker, just one damned good welder up to any challenge.
<a href="mailto:ashenfern@webtv.net?subject=Re: Doble-Detroit">Peter Brow</a> wrote:
>
> Hi Patrick,
>
> There are people who build replacement boilers for Stanleys,
> and they could probably build one to your specs, except for
> the pressure. Stanley boilers usually run at about 500 psi.
> Typical firetubes will flatten well below 2000 psi. The 1906
> Stanley racer ran something like 1200 psi, & that's pushing
> it. A 2000 psi firetube unit is theoretically possible but
> would be quite heavy among other problems. Available oils
> and materials impose practical limits on steam
> pressure/temp. A monotube boiler is much lighter, cheaper,
> and more buildable in a typical shop than a Stanley type
> boiler.
>
> High rpm is possible but tricky with steam engines, esp for
> homebuilt engines. High-pressure steam is heavier and
> doesn't move the way air does in IC engines. That is a
> complex and controversial subject, and I won't wade into it
> here, except to note that IMO a 2-cyl Stanley-like engine @
> ~1000 rpm max is more easily built from scratch in a home
> shop than a high-rpm or multicylinder steam engine (any type
> is quite a project, though). Ray HasBrouck & Graham Baker
> (try a websearch @ yahoo.com) build steam engines w/o costly
> castings or forgings; info on their methods is on web, and
> might give you some ideas.
>
> A custom chassis can be designed around almost any engine.
> For higher wheel speed, you can upsize the engine and
> over-gear it (engine turns slower than wheels), as in the
> Stanley speed record cars (127+ mph) and some of the Stanley
> sports cars. The SACA Storeroom has blueprints for a few
> engines & boilers, and you can find Stanley boiler builders
> thru the Stanley Museum and probably here in this forum.
>
> Try the links pages here @ stanleysteamers.com and at
>
> [www.steamautomobile.com]
>
> (SACA) for various resources. A little
> websurfing/searchengining will turn up all sorts of
> interesting and useful info. Some of the personal websites
> listed have great links pages. Note differing info &
> opinions in this field. I tend to favor road-proven types of
> designs & design parameters myself. There are all sorts of
> tradeoffs and possible improvements involved.
>
> Just some ideas; hope this helps.
>
> Peter</HTML>
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