1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
10 HP engine
Posted by: Gary Hoonsbeen (IP Logged)
Date: January 21, 2005 09:52PM
<HTML>Hand stamped on the forged bracket running side to side on the top of my 10 HP EX engine is the number 0685. This same number (without the O) 685 is hand stamped on a machined surface of the cylinder casting where the bottom plate to one of the cylinders is screwed into the casting. Does this number have any meaning as to when it was made or any relation to the vehilces serial number? (no serial number plate exists).
Also, the pistons in this engine have no groves for pinston rings. Is this normal? Are ring groves and rings ever added to the piston?</HTML>
Also, the pistons in this engine have no groves for pinston rings. Is this normal? Are ring groves and rings ever added to the piston?</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: January 23, 2005 01:38PM
<HTML>Are there really no piston rings? Or are they merely stuck in carbonized oil flush with the surface of the piston?</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: January 23, 2005 05:26PM
<HTML> The only Stanley with plug pistons to my limited knowledge was the record setting Rocket, it would be very interesting, if for setting records on Ormond Beach, that possibly they went this way on a few other cars.
George</HTML>
George</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: Gary Hoonsbeen (IP Logged)
Date: January 23, 2005 11:29PM
<HTML>David: I have carefully checked and there are NO rings on the pistons. The pistons are a very fit into the cylinder walls but I was hoping someone would tell me their experience and if rings should be added. It does not seem like it would be difficult to do.
Any idea on the engine number?
Gayr</HTML>
Any idea on the engine number?
Gayr</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: January 23, 2005 11:44PM
<HTML>The O prefix indicates it's a #2 engine, B-S 3x4 ,,the #1 was just the # ,,Ben</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: January 23, 2005 11:47PM
<HTML>Would you carefully measure the bore and the piston,,,I am curious what clearence they used for this setup,,,Thanks in advance,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: Gary Hoonsbeen (IP Logged)
Date: January 25, 2005 01:47AM
<HTML>Ben in Maine
The measurements you requested are as follows:
Cylinder bore 3.0182" and 3.0205"
Piston Diameter 3.0120" and 3.0185"
The four groves in the piston are .020" wide and .060" deep. I don't know for sure but these are certainly not ring groves. I am not sure I have ever seen a ring that is less than .020 thick.
My judgement tells me that I should cut ring groves, two of them. Any suggestions?
Gary</HTML>
The measurements you requested are as follows:
Cylinder bore 3.0182" and 3.0205"
Piston Diameter 3.0120" and 3.0185"
The four groves in the piston are .020" wide and .060" deep. I don't know for sure but these are certainly not ring groves. I am not sure I have ever seen a ring that is less than .020 thick.
My judgement tells me that I should cut ring groves, two of them. Any suggestions?
Gary</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: gary Hoonsbeen (IP Logged)
Date: January 25, 2005 01:56AM
<HTML>Ben in Maine:
The 0 is a #2 engine? A 3 x 4 inch? What other numbers appeared on the left side of the number stamped on the frame? Does the #685 mean anything?
Because this vehicle I purchased was basily a pile of junk, the motor could have come out of anything. I am building up a model E2, at least the body will be an E2 and I will use what ever parts are available to fill the space in the body. I have finished an 18 inch boiler and have the castings to make up a rear end. It will be another year before I am finished.
Help me out on the meaning of the engine number in more details.
Gary
Minneapolis MN</HTML>
The 0 is a #2 engine? A 3 x 4 inch? What other numbers appeared on the left side of the number stamped on the frame? Does the #685 mean anything?
Because this vehicle I purchased was basily a pile of junk, the motor could have come out of anything. I am building up a model E2, at least the body will be an E2 and I will use what ever parts are available to fill the space in the body. I have finished an 18 inch boiler and have the castings to make up a rear end. It will be another year before I am finished.
Help me out on the meaning of the engine number in more details.
Gary
Minneapolis MN</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: gary Hoonsbeen (IP Logged)
Date: January 25, 2005 12:26PM
<HTML>Ben: One addtional item on the 10 HP engine w/o piston rings. It has a 40 tooth drive gear. This might help pin it down to the age as only certain 10 HP models used the 40 tooth gear includeing:
1905-DX 40/80
1905-E 40/80
1906-EX 40/80
1906-DX 40/80
1908-Z 40/70
1909-Z 40/70
1910-60 40/56
1910-61 40/56
1911-62 40/56
At least according to the New Stanley Steamer book.
Any comments?
Gary</HTML>
1905-DX 40/80
1905-E 40/80
1906-EX 40/80
1906-DX 40/80
1908-Z 40/70
1909-Z 40/70
1910-60 40/56
1910-61 40/56
1911-62 40/56
At least according to the New Stanley Steamer book.
Any comments?
Gary</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: January 25, 2005 12:58PM
<HTML>Hi Gary,,,The 685 is the engine #,,,,the 0 just is a easy way to tell what engine is being referd to when ordering parts,etc,,,There seems to be little [ no] relation of eng # to vin no,,,,I have 2 original side pieces of an ex body,, Everything was replaced when it was restored,,If this is of any interest,let me know, Lets see,,,Piston clearence is .006 and .002 ,,,Interesting,,Has anyone ever heard of a Stanley built as a custom w/ no superheat,, for an old sawmill owner who refused to believe in superheat,,unlikely,,,BUT??? The groves are called water groves,,,Be prepared to make new pistons,,,the old ones MAY be hollow or ribed on the inside, so if you cut ring groves you may cut into a void,,Trying to save the piston rods would be a higher priorty I think,,,The tuning fork con-rods are a especial point of worry,,,They are highly stressed and have a high failure rate ,check for cracks etc,,and of course ,with our modern advanced living,,we can no longer get Bilodou Bearing Co in the old Chickering Piano building on the corner of Mass Av and Washington St { Boston] to grind the races and fit ovresize balls ,,,Does anyone have access to a Heald grinder?? Made in Worcester Mass. ,, Good luck,, ,,Ben</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: January 25, 2005 01:53PM
<HTML>Hi,,Your list is ok for ratios,,the early engines used 8 pitch gears,,the K, Z and later 20 hp used a 6 pitch gear, The model 60-61-62-etc were a larger engine,,3 1/4 X 4 1/4 and wider frame spacing ,,,,Hoonsbeen,,,Finally rememberd where I had heard the name,,Did you have relatives in London in 1896,,,There is a simply wonderful account of taking delivery of a new Panhard-Levassor motorcar at the train station, [ early car w/ tube ignition ] [Just in time for the great celebration to Brighton],,,taken from Mrs Hoonsbeens 1896 diary,,REPRINTED in the Badmitton Library [sports] book on Motoring of 1902,,,Its a must read for anyone loving the pioneer era. I knew I had heard the name,,haha All for now Ben</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: gary Hoonsbeen (IP Logged)
Date: January 25, 2005 11:41PM
<HTML>The gear on the engine appears to be 8 pitch but I need to find my pitch gauge to make it positive.
I also feel the change from a 3 to 3-1/4 inch bore was due to the switch from super heated (dry) steam to wet steam. As you know D valves like wet steam and I am sure Stanley had lots of problems with the dry steam. The change to the larger bore was needed to compensate for the lesser "power" of wet steam.
Do you have any idea of the piston's inside profile? If I put in .080" wide rings with a depth of .100, could the grove be cut near the edge of the piston where I am sure there is metal? I could x-ray the piston but that is costly.
What about replacing the top and bottom steel ball in the cross head with round bronze rod? It would take a little reworking of the guides, which could also be made adjustable by shimming. Worth a try?
The correct spelling of my name is Hohnsbehn. My great-grand-father changed the spelling to Hoonsbeen when he made his second homestead in Wisconsin after leaving Kansas. We have relatives all over the world and I would like to hear more about the one you refer to.</HTML>
I also feel the change from a 3 to 3-1/4 inch bore was due to the switch from super heated (dry) steam to wet steam. As you know D valves like wet steam and I am sure Stanley had lots of problems with the dry steam. The change to the larger bore was needed to compensate for the lesser "power" of wet steam.
Do you have any idea of the piston's inside profile? If I put in .080" wide rings with a depth of .100, could the grove be cut near the edge of the piston where I am sure there is metal? I could x-ray the piston but that is costly.
What about replacing the top and bottom steel ball in the cross head with round bronze rod? It would take a little reworking of the guides, which could also be made adjustable by shimming. Worth a try?
The correct spelling of my name is Hohnsbehn. My great-grand-father changed the spelling to Hoonsbeen when he made his second homestead in Wisconsin after leaving Kansas. We have relatives all over the world and I would like to hear more about the one you refer to.</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: January 26, 2005 12:16AM
<HTML>Hi,,If you go the bronze route,,,you will need lubrication / important. The bore change was at the end of the little ex,,,when the much larger model 60 ,,62,,were introduced,,and followd w/a 20'' boiler,,not sure of boiler change date,, I will see if I can find a piston around here to look at,,,With the pressure Stanley used,,power was NOT a problem,,but if superheat is down,,,then water consumption quickley becomes a problem...They pretty much worked out the superheat thing verry early on..Have you laid all the engine parts out to see how complete it is?? What do the crosshead slides look like? are they usable as is,,or can they be ground a bit,,slides too,,shimed and new balls,,,the draw bolts should PINCH the balls so they dont slop about...thats why there are pins at the ball track ends..Mrs Hoonsbeen,s account in her diary accounts their going daily to the train station for most of the week to try to understand how to start the car,,If you have ever read a English copy of a French manual of this early period,,,'''',,,,'''',, Mark Twain would have made at least 5 volumes out of it,,,This same book has a chapter on the Caprices of the Petrol Motor'' by C. S. Rolls the early sportsman who later on got himself envolved w/making Motorcars,[ not Automobiles] [FR] haha,, The last of 20 items is '''Do not trouble to turn on the petrol tap, if there is none in the tank.''' Ill see if I can find my copy ,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: January 26, 2005 12:17PM
<HTML>I advise you to fit piston rings. Find out what width is needed for step cut rings for your bores, and cut the grooves accordingly. Don't use the butt cut rings normal to IC engine practice, if you can get the step cut ones.
I grant you, you might be able to get stock butt cut rings through your local car parts dealer, which will save a lot of money. And even those rings will improve the engines performance.</HTML>
I grant you, you might be able to get stock butt cut rings through your local car parts dealer, which will save a lot of money. And even those rings will improve the engines performance.</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: Kobus van Jaarsveld (IP Logged)
Date: January 26, 2005 04:31PM
<HTML>Gary,
I have pistons with rings for a 3x4 engine I can photograph and measure and let you have the details.
Your engine is a "dry" unit, meaning you must oil it by hand roughly after every tank of water has been consumed. The original ball support for the crosshead worked happily during these intervals, but if you change the crosshead to something with a relatively large friction area, you will have to fit some kind of lubrication system to keep things happy.
Cheers, Kobus</HTML>
I have pistons with rings for a 3x4 engine I can photograph and measure and let you have the details.
Your engine is a "dry" unit, meaning you must oil it by hand roughly after every tank of water has been consumed. The original ball support for the crosshead worked happily during these intervals, but if you change the crosshead to something with a relatively large friction area, you will have to fit some kind of lubrication system to keep things happy.
Cheers, Kobus</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: Gary Hoonsbeen (IP Logged)
Date: January 30, 2005 02:23AM
<HTML>Ben:
It would be great if you could find an old piston and cut it apart for measurements.
The engine is complete and would run on very low air pressure when I got it, but the cross head races are very worn and I will grind in a new surface. I expect these were case hardened but did not check that yet.
The four support bolts were cut off and modified to fit a different rear axle. It was a real poor job of adapting to a Ford axle but I have made all the castings to duplicate the orginal.
I would like to call you on the phone sometime and discuss some details. If you don't mind send me you phone number directly to my email address.
Gary</HTML>
It would be great if you could find an old piston and cut it apart for measurements.
The engine is complete and would run on very low air pressure when I got it, but the cross head races are very worn and I will grind in a new surface. I expect these were case hardened but did not check that yet.
The four support bolts were cut off and modified to fit a different rear axle. It was a real poor job of adapting to a Ford axle but I have made all the castings to duplicate the orginal.
I would like to call you on the phone sometime and discuss some details. If you don't mind send me you phone number directly to my email address.
Gary</HTML>
Re: 10 HP engine
Posted by: ghosy (IP Logged)
Date: May 20, 2005 07:26AM
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<a href="mailto:cdoclub@comcast.net?subject=Re: 10 HP engine">gary Hoonsbeen</a> wrote:
>
> Ben in Maine:
>
> The 0 is a #2 engine? A 3 x 4 inch? What other numbers
> appeared on the left side of the number stamped on the
> frame? Does the #685 mean anything?
> Because this vehicle I purchased was basily a pile of junk,
> the motor could have come out of anything. I am building up
> a model E2, at least the body will be an E2 and I will use
> what ever parts are available to fill the space in the body.
> I have finished an 18 inch boiler and have the castings to
> make up a rear end. It will be another year before I am
> finished.
> Help me out on the meaning of the engine number in more
> details.
>
> Gary
> Minneapolis MN</HTML>
<a href="mailto:cdoclub@comcast.net?subject=Re: 10 HP engine">gary Hoonsbeen</a> wrote:
>
> Ben in Maine:
>
> The 0 is a #2 engine? A 3 x 4 inch? What other numbers
> appeared on the left side of the number stamped on the
> frame? Does the #685 mean anything?
> Because this vehicle I purchased was basily a pile of junk,
> the motor could have come out of anything. I am building up
> a model E2, at least the body will be an E2 and I will use
> what ever parts are available to fill the space in the body.
> I have finished an 18 inch boiler and have the castings to
> make up a rear end. It will be another year before I am
> finished.
> Help me out on the meaning of the engine number in more
> details.
>
> Gary
> Minneapolis MN</HTML>
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