1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Stanley Cruise Speed
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2005 09:22AM
<HTML>I have a friend, otherwise generally knowledgeable about steam power, who swears that no Stanley can cruise at more than 25 mph. At any higher speed, he insists, they must stop every few miles to build up steam. He says that everything he has read and heard (except from me) supports this. This doesn't fit anything I have read. However, neither of us can find simple/undebatable references to back up our positions. If I say, "here's someone who said that his Stanley's cruise speed is 45 mph," his reply is, "yeah, but he probably has to pull over every few miles to build up steam." Argh.
A question to settle this (and perhaps spark some interesting discussion in the process): what kind of maximum continuous cruise speeds (without stops or slowdowns) do you Stanley drivers get, on level roads?
I don't think my friend will debate any first-hand figures provided by those who actually drive Stanleys! Passenger/observer testimonials are welcome too!
Peter</HTML>
A question to settle this (and perhaps spark some interesting discussion in the process): what kind of maximum continuous cruise speeds (without stops or slowdowns) do you Stanley drivers get, on level roads?
I don't think my friend will debate any first-hand figures provided by those who actually drive Stanleys! Passenger/observer testimonials are welcome too!
Peter</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cruise Speed
Posted by: Tim Senior (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2005 10:18AM
<HTML>On a good boiler day (does anyone else think that the weather makes a difference?) I can maintain 40 mph. in a 1911 10hp. type 63 Stanley without needing to stop.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cruise Speed
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: March 12, 2005 03:33PM
<HTML>Air temperature does make a big difference on steaming ability. On a day of 75 degrees, our 1914 Stanley model 606 has no problem of maintaining 60 m.ph. plus. When it is down to about a 25 degrees air temperature, speeds of much over 50 mph can be a challenge. After about 8 miles of steaming, the Stanley has built up it's heat in all of it's components and it's more lively, but a warm day is it's best friend for making more steam. On a tour years back, we were on the "Red Carpet" tour to Paradise Lodge located on the south side of Mt. Rainier. Starting out at the Crystal Mt. Ski Lodge in the early morning, there was frost on our cars. Crystal Mt. Ski Lodge is located on the north east side of the mountain. Climbing the mountain roads in the early morning, with our chilled steamer, the big classic cars were leaving us in their dust. Later in the day, on our return trip back up to Crystal Mt.Ski Lodge, it warmed up to about 85 degrees. All of the big classic cars like the Packards, Cadillacs, Pierce Arrows, etc. then were dropping like flies with vapor lock to their fuel systems, and over heated cooling systems. On the up hills, we were were passing them like they were standing still. And some were standing still. LOL</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cruise Speed
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: March 13, 2005 12:14AM
<HTML>I've only been on two tours both in Australia (Think very warm conditions) Basil Craske's 1909 goes like the wind and was easily averaging 45mph (hilly country)
The 735 and 740's were averaging 35mph happily. The thing that slows the heavier later cars down is hills. The only time cars stopped on hills was if something was wrong ie plugged vapouriser, dragging brakes other wise you just slowed down untill the top was reached. On the flat 35 to 40mph on the condensor models was quite achievable. Ron Parolla's car as an example.
Personally I'd bet your "knowledgable" friend a bucket load of money and take him on a steam tour and collect big time. You could also buy a video from the British Steam Car club of their rallies showing Stanleys bowling along for mile after mile at good speed........Mind you I'm sure he'd claim all the stopping was off camera.
By the way everything he has read? He has shown this to you, has the references? Show me the money!!
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
The 735 and 740's were averaging 35mph happily. The thing that slows the heavier later cars down is hills. The only time cars stopped on hills was if something was wrong ie plugged vapouriser, dragging brakes other wise you just slowed down untill the top was reached. On the flat 35 to 40mph on the condensor models was quite achievable. Ron Parolla's car as an example.
Personally I'd bet your "knowledgable" friend a bucket load of money and take him on a steam tour and collect big time. You could also buy a video from the British Steam Car club of their rallies showing Stanleys bowling along for mile after mile at good speed........Mind you I'm sure he'd claim all the stopping was off camera.
By the way everything he has read? He has shown this to you, has the references? Show me the money!!
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cruise Speed
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 13, 2005 11:14AM
<HTML>Thanks, guys; I think your responses (and those in the other thread) pretty much settled that debate! Also, interesting notes on the effects of ambient temperature and beating the old gas cars (lots of fun Pat!).
Mark, I'm not sure where my friend got that 25 mph stuff, and neither is he. Just an impression he got from some internet discussion board posts and people he had talked to. He didn't save any of the posts from the Boards or remember who said what, so it is a mystery. Maybe he got it from steam-car haters (he has debated some outstanding exemplars of that creed, as usual the type with zero-degrees-Kelvin knowledge about actual steam cars), or people who think that 19th century road locomotives were the only steam cars ever built, or that later ones were no improvement. Who knows. I've been debating this with him for a few years, off and on, nice to have it settled -- I think. I forwarded the response to him, and am still awaiting a concession speech. :)
He actually loves steam cars and agrees that much faster & better ones are technically feasible; he just needed some first-hand info on how good the old steamers really are.
Peter</HTML>
Mark, I'm not sure where my friend got that 25 mph stuff, and neither is he. Just an impression he got from some internet discussion board posts and people he had talked to. He didn't save any of the posts from the Boards or remember who said what, so it is a mystery. Maybe he got it from steam-car haters (he has debated some outstanding exemplars of that creed, as usual the type with zero-degrees-Kelvin knowledge about actual steam cars), or people who think that 19th century road locomotives were the only steam cars ever built, or that later ones were no improvement. Who knows. I've been debating this with him for a few years, off and on, nice to have it settled -- I think. I forwarded the response to him, and am still awaiting a concession speech. :)
He actually loves steam cars and agrees that much faster & better ones are technically feasible; he just needed some first-hand info on how good the old steamers really are.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cruise Speed
Posted by: Jeff Theobald (IP Logged)
Date: March 13, 2005 01:11PM
<HTML>Hi Peter,
In your question the crucial words are "on level roads" as you may know I have used my Brooks steamer for many years now covering many thousands of miles.
The Brooks is the same layout as a condensing Stanley, but has a smaller boiler working at the same pressure as a Stanley, with a smaller engine 4" X 4.5" propelling a car that weighs more than a Stanley.
On a good day with water that will BOIL in the boiler, (The old steam men's comment for poor steaming) with the car thoroughly warmed up, ON LEVEL ROADS we can maintain 45 mph plus, the killer is hills, and here in the UK we have lots of them, we very seldom have to stop.
A few years ago we were in a very hilly area on one of the UK tours, and the Brooks with a full load of passengers climbed out of a town called Settle on a road that varied from 1 in 4 at worst, to 1 in 8 for a distance of three miles and we didn't stop all the way, we may have been down to walking pace, but we kept going, passing a number of other cars that had fallen by the wayside.
The Brooks can be seen doing its stuff in the video "Uphill and Downdale" by Moonlight Production.
So in answer to your friends opinion, he is wrong, your average 20hp steam car on level roads can easily maintain 45 mph. all the best, Jeff.</HTML>
In your question the crucial words are "on level roads" as you may know I have used my Brooks steamer for many years now covering many thousands of miles.
The Brooks is the same layout as a condensing Stanley, but has a smaller boiler working at the same pressure as a Stanley, with a smaller engine 4" X 4.5" propelling a car that weighs more than a Stanley.
On a good day with water that will BOIL in the boiler, (The old steam men's comment for poor steaming) with the car thoroughly warmed up, ON LEVEL ROADS we can maintain 45 mph plus, the killer is hills, and here in the UK we have lots of them, we very seldom have to stop.
A few years ago we were in a very hilly area on one of the UK tours, and the Brooks with a full load of passengers climbed out of a town called Settle on a road that varied from 1 in 4 at worst, to 1 in 8 for a distance of three miles and we didn't stop all the way, we may have been down to walking pace, but we kept going, passing a number of other cars that had fallen by the wayside.
The Brooks can be seen doing its stuff in the video "Uphill and Downdale" by Moonlight Production.
So in answer to your friends opinion, he is wrong, your average 20hp steam car on level roads can easily maintain 45 mph. all the best, Jeff.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cruise Speed
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: March 13, 2005 02:15PM
<HTML>Errrr,,,Better check the road schedule that those 19th century monster road locomotives actually held in servace,,and on steel tyres and dirt roads,,,I can't recall a number,,,but I well being nothing short of amazed,,There was a pretty good reason to ban those inventions of the devil,,,,Of course in this modern world we dont believe in devils,,,just madmen,,and clinically misinformed,,,,,OOps the pilot under my oatmeal just went out,,,back soon,,Cheers Ben p/s Just found evidence that Scott Joplin was a motorhead...wow,,,,,cb</HTML>
Conceeded!
Posted by: John Mahler (IP Logged)
Date: March 13, 2005 08:50PM
<HTML>OK, OK, Conceeded! Issue settled! Steam cars go faster than 40 mph. On my knees, conceeded! Sorry, you are right 15 mph is a big deal and probably not a reason anyone would not want to own and drive a superior steam car in 60 to 65 mph rush hour traffic on Los Angeles freeways. I likewise conceed it was only bad business practices which finally ended steam car production. It must remain forever a mistery why no one has ever brought the venerable and beloved technology back to proliferation. I suppose that might attribute to our need for topic of discussion.
Happy Steam'in,
John Mahler</HTML>
Happy Steam'in,
John Mahler</HTML>
Re Passing of the old guard,,
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: March 14, 2005 12:38AM
<HTML>When these cars were in their hayday,,there was a steam sawmill in every county,,or village,,a machine shop and resaw [plainer]shop as well..Steam launches were common as well as a few leftover steam Pumpers,, ,,a person to fix an engine or boiler were as common as mechanics for a skimobile or outboard,,,As the old crew dwindled,, so have the cars,,,we are carrying on 3 generations late,, Like old wine,,,it's an aquired taste ,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Conceeded!
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 14, 2005 06:49AM
<HTML>Hi John,
Don't you mean "UNCLE! UNCLE!"? LOL. Sorry about being such a stickler on this argument-over-numbers, and unintentionally dragging you into the public forum.
On bringing steamers back into production, Modelworks in England is in the process of doing just that. Interestingly, with a steamer (the Likamobile, a circa 1902 Locomobile replica) which barely beats your former 25 mph continuous speed figure ... but an H5 replica may be further down the road ...
Why something like this hasn't happened sooner is indeed an interesting question, and a topic for another thread ...
Peter</HTML>
Don't you mean "UNCLE! UNCLE!"? LOL. Sorry about being such a stickler on this argument-over-numbers, and unintentionally dragging you into the public forum.
On bringing steamers back into production, Modelworks in England is in the process of doing just that. Interestingly, with a steamer (the Likamobile, a circa 1902 Locomobile replica) which barely beats your former 25 mph continuous speed figure ... but an H5 replica may be further down the road ...
Why something like this hasn't happened sooner is indeed an interesting question, and a topic for another thread ...
Peter</HTML>
Re: Conceeded!
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: March 14, 2005 07:00AM
<HTML>John nice post but conceeding on why Steam Cars disapeared is not required. I think every steam car enthusiast would have their own pet theory. I personally align to Ben as to why they faded. I have just sold a car to a chap who wanted to know when the clutch was last rebuilt, drove the car in tight circles to check the front CV joints, coasted the car in top gear down hill to check the compression and has disconected the electrics in the tail gate to "fix" the boot release.
It's an auto matic rear wheel drive 1978 Mercedes benz with pneumatic central locking
Sigh and you could sell a steam car to someone like this with out a full dealer network. I don't think so.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
It's an auto matic rear wheel drive 1978 Mercedes benz with pneumatic central locking
Sigh and you could sell a steam car to someone like this with out a full dealer network. I don't think so.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cruise Speed
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 14, 2005 07:02AM
<HTML>Hi Jeff,
Good point on hills; most classic steamers do have to slow down quite a bit, especially on steep grades. Better than most gas cars of their day, however! On a steep grade, John's point about 25 mph in bursts, with stops/slowdowns in between, might be quite valid. Perhaps that is the origin of the 25 mph figure which he heard somewhere. "Grampa's Stanley couldn't go up Horsebreaker Hill at more than 25 mph without pulling over here and there", after many retellings by different people, turned into "I heard somewhere that Stanleys have to stop every few miles whenever run over 25 mph".
The Brooks is a rare treasure indeed -- keep her steamin'! I'll check out the video, thanks for the tip. Any news on the Keen Steamliner?
Peter</HTML>
Good point on hills; most classic steamers do have to slow down quite a bit, especially on steep grades. Better than most gas cars of their day, however! On a steep grade, John's point about 25 mph in bursts, with stops/slowdowns in between, might be quite valid. Perhaps that is the origin of the 25 mph figure which he heard somewhere. "Grampa's Stanley couldn't go up Horsebreaker Hill at more than 25 mph without pulling over here and there", after many retellings by different people, turned into "I heard somewhere that Stanleys have to stop every few miles whenever run over 25 mph".
The Brooks is a rare treasure indeed -- keep her steamin'! I'll check out the video, thanks for the tip. Any news on the Keen Steamliner?
Peter</HTML>
Re: Conceeded!
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 14, 2005 07:16AM
<HTML>Hi Mark,
Yes, and most gas car makers of the steam car era went out of business for that and many other reasons. Automobiles are far from an easy market to get into, or to stay in. Perhaps the toughest market of all; cars, gas or steam (or whatever), are very complex machines and today's production models are highly refined. Congratulations on the Mercedes sale. I have lost count of how many beautiful premium-model Mercedes cars I've seen in junkyards, complete and in perfect condition throughout except for an engine or tranny problem which (according to a Mercedes fan I know) would cost somebody an arm and a leg to fix. And that's _with_ an extensive worldwide dealer network & skilled pros who can fix them. The buyer was wise to check it out thoroughly.
Peter</HTML>
Yes, and most gas car makers of the steam car era went out of business for that and many other reasons. Automobiles are far from an easy market to get into, or to stay in. Perhaps the toughest market of all; cars, gas or steam (or whatever), are very complex machines and today's production models are highly refined. Congratulations on the Mercedes sale. I have lost count of how many beautiful premium-model Mercedes cars I've seen in junkyards, complete and in perfect condition throughout except for an engine or tranny problem which (according to a Mercedes fan I know) would cost somebody an arm and a leg to fix. And that's _with_ an extensive worldwide dealer network & skilled pros who can fix them. The buyer was wise to check it out thoroughly.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Re Passing of the old guard,,
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 14, 2005 07:20AM
<HTML>Perhaps so, Ben. Sad to say. Then again, occasionally an old tree stump will sprout anew ...
Pollyanna Pete</HTML>
Pollyanna Pete</HTML>
Re: Conceeded!
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: March 15, 2005 04:35AM
<HTML>Peter you missed my point. The chap I sold my Mercedes to ($700 registered for 1, year road legal) thought he knew about cars ie Some one with an interest. Might investigate an alternative propulsion system etc etc.
The problem was all the "tests" and action during and after he bought the car were wrong or pointless.
Trying to fix the central locking by pulling wires out means the car now has no operating number plate light or rear wiper. It's a vaccum operated system, zero, nil electrics.
CV's on front wheel drive cars click on tight turns if they are wearing out. Great test except It's a rear wheel drive car.
Most cars in NZ are manuals (stick shift) and as it's hilly clutchs wear out as a lot of drivers ride the clutch. Good on him for asking except this car is an automatic. (No. He wasn't refering to the bands in the auto)
I firmly believe unless the steam replacement system is basically a big plug in plug out sealed black box they will never sell to any one except a rabid enthusiast as the owners won't / can't maintain them and the mechanics with knowledge don't exist as per Ben's post.
And as Ben said when the local steam expert/mechanic disapeared the steam cars disappeared. Which is also why it is unlikely they will come back.
Hmm my last post on this. I think it needs a new thread and I should stop rambling.
Cheers
Mark</HTML>
The problem was all the "tests" and action during and after he bought the car were wrong or pointless.
Trying to fix the central locking by pulling wires out means the car now has no operating number plate light or rear wiper. It's a vaccum operated system, zero, nil electrics.
CV's on front wheel drive cars click on tight turns if they are wearing out. Great test except It's a rear wheel drive car.
Most cars in NZ are manuals (stick shift) and as it's hilly clutchs wear out as a lot of drivers ride the clutch. Good on him for asking except this car is an automatic. (No. He wasn't refering to the bands in the auto)
I firmly believe unless the steam replacement system is basically a big plug in plug out sealed black box they will never sell to any one except a rabid enthusiast as the owners won't / can't maintain them and the mechanics with knowledge don't exist as per Ben's post.
And as Ben said when the local steam expert/mechanic disapeared the steam cars disappeared. Which is also why it is unlikely they will come back.
Hmm my last post on this. I think it needs a new thread and I should stop rambling.
Cheers
Mark</HTML>
Re: Conceeded!
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 15, 2005 07:51AM
<HTML>Hi Mark,
Yep, I totally missed the point. Thanks for the wake-up; makes me realize that I'm too busy/distracted lately to read/think carefully on all these subjects. Will get back to it later when I have more time & energy. My last post on this topic too.
Agree that a return of up-to-date steam cars is unlikely. Then again, I once thought that new steam Locomobiles and buffalo nickels would never happen, so who knows. :)
Peter</HTML>
Yep, I totally missed the point. Thanks for the wake-up; makes me realize that I'm too busy/distracted lately to read/think carefully on all these subjects. Will get back to it later when I have more time & energy. My last post on this topic too.
Agree that a return of up-to-date steam cars is unlikely. Then again, I once thought that new steam Locomobiles and buffalo nickels would never happen, so who knows. :)
Peter</HTML>
Re: Conceeded!
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: March 15, 2005 12:07PM
<HTML>The best possibility in the future would be the BUS market,,where the busses would always have a maintenence depot at the ends of the runs,,,next best would be road tractors that get good servace so that road failures are few,,,The tractor boys seem to know more about the rig,,,but the bus boys ,,,its just a 9--5 job,n'get me outta here,, So the busses would need a ''baby sitter'' to care for them This is my view ,from what I have seen,,Cheers Ben,,,,p/s Hey George,,it's warming up,,first mornin' over 20f an the news said we just past 100'' of the 4lettr S word..Enjoy...Ben</HTML>
Re: Conceeded!
Posted by: Howard Randall (IP Logged)
Date: March 15, 2005 01:24PM
<HTML>You can add to the diminishing number of those familiar with steam as a power source, the diminishing supply of horse troughs to fill your tank from! One urban legend has it that many of these were removed for mosquito and attendant eastern equine encephalitis control as the use of horses rapidly declined into the teens.
Coburn, I'm a little numb myself from one of the 4letter s words. Could you supply one more letter that best describes the winter we have had, and George has not?
On second thought, better not. Big brother could be watching.</HTML>
Coburn, I'm a little numb myself from one of the 4letter s words. Could you supply one more letter that best describes the winter we have had, and George has not?
On second thought, better not. Big brother could be watching.</HTML>
Re: Conceeded!
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2005 07:05AM
<HTML>Okay, I'll break my promise. Agree with you there, Ben. Take it from somebody who lives on a busy bus line, silent steam buses sure would be nice. Something like 1/2 the fleet in San Diego is CNG powered, meaning big Otto engines, meaning stopping and idling for one to several minutes every few blocks, meaning that a direct-drive steam engine could get better fuel mileage than a CNG/IC bus. Maintenance costs could be lower too with the right system design, and the silence, clean running, and alternative fuel angles are also good sales points. Contracts should include hands-on factory service training for bus line maintenance personnel. Municipal procurement corruption may be an issue in some areas.
Peter</HTML>
Peter</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cruise Speed
Posted by: Ron parola (IP Logged)
Date: May 08, 2005 12:29AM
<HTML>Yes, they will cruise faster than 25. We drove to Colorado in our 22 740 and on a warm day on a FLAT road (all roads in Nevada ARE flat, at least 50 is) with no traffic so we didn't have to worry about stopping and on the wifes cars speedo we could mantain 50 to 55 with out slowing to "blow up". However I do have a thirty hp boiler and am running taller tyres (overdrive?). But in Colorado they've got HILLS, go on forever, on those our hill climbing was down to a walk on occasion, painfull. The absolute BEST water milage was 180 to a tank, dead flat and going 20 to 25, we didn't know where there was water, and the worst was something less then 100, that I don't really remember. Gas mileage (well gas and diesel mix) down to 3mpg in hill country and around 9 to 11 normal driving, probably be a lot better if kept at design speeds; 20 to 25,.In Aus was a bit slower, didn't want to break far from home but also they have" distillate" seems to have less btu's Cheers RP</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cruise Speed
Posted by: Christopher W. Roberts (IP Logged)
Date: June 22, 2005 01:01AM
<HTML> I have a standard Stanley boiler installed in my 1919 Stanley, with oversize boiler tubes. I also have a Doble type gun burner. In the tubes I have Tubeulators installed to slow the heat going up the flue's. In any case I feel it works out to be about the same as a Stanley boiler and burner. I can maintain 35-40 m.p.h. at 400# p.s.i. steam pressure.
CWR</HTML>
CWR</HTML>
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