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Lamont info and Fail Safe
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: March 22, 2002 03:41PM
<HTML>I am wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of published info on the Lamont boiler? The more I am hearing of this idea the better it is sounding.
On another note, is anyone aware of a centrifically activated micro-switch that could be set up to cut off the burner. Considering the Lamont’s life seems to depend on the circulation pump, I thought it might be a good idea to make sure it was circulating before, or after, the burner ignites.
Then again if someone does come up with a magnetically coupled sealed pump that works, you might have to come up with some sort of flow sensor to do this job. Though at the moment, I will admit I haven’t a clue as to what form that would take.
Just another one of those hmmm... Moments
Garry</HTML>
On another note, is anyone aware of a centrifically activated micro-switch that could be set up to cut off the burner. Considering the Lamont’s life seems to depend on the circulation pump, I thought it might be a good idea to make sure it was circulating before, or after, the burner ignites.
Then again if someone does come up with a magnetically coupled sealed pump that works, you might have to come up with some sort of flow sensor to do this job. Though at the moment, I will admit I haven’t a clue as to what form that would take.
Just another one of those hmmm... Moments
Garry</HTML>
Re: Lamont info and Fail Safe
Posted by: George K. Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: March 22, 2002 05:49PM
<HTML>Garry,
There are flow sensor switches and also pressure differential switches, both would work as a factor of safety as if no flow velocity output or pressure differential from the pump input to output occurred it would automatically shut down the burner circuit.
Investigating these two items have taken a lot of time as well as the pump, Rod and I have a few "cheapy" solutions to the safety switch problem but so far in prototype testing it has not been required. We think we could make one for a few bucks and will eventually get to it. Another approach is to monitor the DC motor amperage as when the pump cavitates it speeds up and the amperage goes way down, however this would not work if the motor or pump bearings seized up. The centrifugal switch would not work under the cavitation circumstance. A fourth approach is to monitor Lamont coil temperature at its outlet and if it ever started to superheat have the burner shut down but this has the disadvantage of not being sensitive to the boiler pressure and saturation temerature.
As far as a good book that includes a lot of data on the Lamont STEAM GENERATORS by Rudorff(English)1938 gives a lot of good data. Unfortunately it is rare and the last one I found on Amazon used books was $120--a lot of money.
The difficulty remains in getting information on miniature boilers and this appears non-existent. Designing big Lamonts is much different than designing small ones of a few thousand pounds per hour evaporation rate.
You are so right- the circulating pump is the very heart of the system, if it fails the system will overheat and eventually fail. But all of these little side issues pale in comparison to the correct design of the boiler itself, it is the main issue to be dealt with first.
Best, George</HTML>
There are flow sensor switches and also pressure differential switches, both would work as a factor of safety as if no flow velocity output or pressure differential from the pump input to output occurred it would automatically shut down the burner circuit.
Investigating these two items have taken a lot of time as well as the pump, Rod and I have a few "cheapy" solutions to the safety switch problem but so far in prototype testing it has not been required. We think we could make one for a few bucks and will eventually get to it. Another approach is to monitor the DC motor amperage as when the pump cavitates it speeds up and the amperage goes way down, however this would not work if the motor or pump bearings seized up. The centrifugal switch would not work under the cavitation circumstance. A fourth approach is to monitor Lamont coil temperature at its outlet and if it ever started to superheat have the burner shut down but this has the disadvantage of not being sensitive to the boiler pressure and saturation temerature.
As far as a good book that includes a lot of data on the Lamont STEAM GENERATORS by Rudorff(English)1938 gives a lot of good data. Unfortunately it is rare and the last one I found on Amazon used books was $120--a lot of money.
The difficulty remains in getting information on miniature boilers and this appears non-existent. Designing big Lamonts is much different than designing small ones of a few thousand pounds per hour evaporation rate.
You are so right- the circulating pump is the very heart of the system, if it fails the system will overheat and eventually fail. But all of these little side issues pale in comparison to the correct design of the boiler itself, it is the main issue to be dealt with first.
Best, George</HTML>
Re: Lamont info and Fail Safe
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: March 22, 2002 07:14PM
<HTML>Thanks for the Lamont info George
Some how, I just put it together you are one of the pair working on the Lamont. (I can be a bit brain dead sometimes :)
On your flow sensor, is it possible to have something that reads over and under amperage? I believe if the pump were to seize, the amperage draw of the motor would rise considerably. Perhaps a circuit breaker in this case that would kill power to the burner as well? Then again, it would have to be a breaker that allowed for short duration over loads, or it would kick out under starting loads.... Ahh... The joys and wonders of experimental prototypes. (Notice I did not mention the hair pulling and cuss words that go with it :)
It certainly sounds like the Lamont is quite a challenge. If everything continues to look as good as it is, it will be an effort well made.
Best of Luck with your projects
Garry</HTML>
Some how, I just put it together you are one of the pair working on the Lamont. (I can be a bit brain dead sometimes :)
On your flow sensor, is it possible to have something that reads over and under amperage? I believe if the pump were to seize, the amperage draw of the motor would rise considerably. Perhaps a circuit breaker in this case that would kill power to the burner as well? Then again, it would have to be a breaker that allowed for short duration over loads, or it would kick out under starting loads.... Ahh... The joys and wonders of experimental prototypes. (Notice I did not mention the hair pulling and cuss words that go with it :)
It certainly sounds like the Lamont is quite a challenge. If everything continues to look as good as it is, it will be an effort well made.
Best of Luck with your projects
Garry</HTML>
Re: Lamont info and Fail Safe
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 22, 2002 08:53PM
<HTML>A microcontroller can easily sense the current level of a pump, high or low, and respond accordingly by slowing the motor or killing the flame. Many inputs can be combined to provide a fail safe from multipule directions. A thermal couple can be directly hooked to a microcontroller as well as pressure sensors and many others. The desired output is modified in software, reguardless of the hardware used. A very high current drain would be 0.100 amps and stand by is only 0.000007 amps. To sense 4 critical inputs may require only 10 or 15 discrete components and total cost might run 50 bucks after the $200.00 outlay to program them your self. They can be programed in an abreviated form of the basic language from your desk top computers printer port in minutes. No assembly language, no heavy electronics calculations and the chips cost from $3.00 to about $15.00 depending on the features. Most are reprogramable a minimum of 1000 times, plenty of room for mistakes and modifications.
As the cost keeps droping on microcontrollers, expect NOT to see them everywhere, they are hidden in everything. Soon when you bring your groceries home, the mocrocontroller in the 2 litre bottle of coke will inform your fridge or pantry of its arrivial and register its self on the fridge or pantry inventory schedule automatically. This may go so far as to appear on a LCD panel on the fridge, indicating entry date, amount left, expiration date and so on, even creating a shoping list automatically. No more opening the fridge to see whats inside. If you think I am dreaming, go buy a talking greeting card. When you do, you will be holding more computing power in your hand than existed in the whole world before about 1960. Also, for the last 20 or more years the density of IC chips has doubled every 6 months, as predicted, and the end is not in sight.
If anyone wants to learn more I can recomend a few good books.
Peter Heid</HTML>
As the cost keeps droping on microcontrollers, expect NOT to see them everywhere, they are hidden in everything. Soon when you bring your groceries home, the mocrocontroller in the 2 litre bottle of coke will inform your fridge or pantry of its arrivial and register its self on the fridge or pantry inventory schedule automatically. This may go so far as to appear on a LCD panel on the fridge, indicating entry date, amount left, expiration date and so on, even creating a shoping list automatically. No more opening the fridge to see whats inside. If you think I am dreaming, go buy a talking greeting card. When you do, you will be holding more computing power in your hand than existed in the whole world before about 1960. Also, for the last 20 or more years the density of IC chips has doubled every 6 months, as predicted, and the end is not in sight.
If anyone wants to learn more I can recomend a few good books.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Lamont info and Fail Safe
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: March 22, 2002 10:07PM
<HTML>Please continue Peter
What books,'hopefully Prgarming, Processors & Sensors for Dummies', would you recomend?
I am sure there are are several of us that could use some eudu-macation, as my father would put it.
Thought provoking
Thank you
Garry</HTML>
What books,'hopefully Prgarming, Processors & Sensors for Dummies', would you recomend?
I am sure there are are several of us that could use some eudu-macation, as my father would put it.
Thought provoking
Thank you
Garry</HTML>
Re: Lamont info and Fail Safe
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 24, 2002 11:23PM
<HTML>Garry and All,
A very good starting point would be the "PIC Microcontroller Project Book" by John Iovine 2000, a Mcgraw-Hill book. This is a great place for the beginner to start in this facinating and expanding field. There is also a series of 3 books called "Easy Pickin", they start simple and each next book covers more complex issues and uses.
Not only can you hook a thermal couple and other measurement devices, directly to a PIC but if they follow a non linear curve through their operating range, the software can compensate for it. I said the motor current is easily watch dogged by a PIC, but it is better if the computer actually controls the current and monitors it. The motor can be soft started, and the speed controlled to give the most efficient use of aux power. I have noticed that many new books on boiler design and control indicate that DC speed controlled motors are used on most new installations for the maximum efficiency. Even when producing millions of pounds of steam per hour.
I am not a very experienced user of these devices, mostly I have just run programs on an emulator, allowing development and testing of software on a PC, but I will gladly try to answer any questions within my scope of knowledge.
Peter Heid</HTML>
A very good starting point would be the "PIC Microcontroller Project Book" by John Iovine 2000, a Mcgraw-Hill book. This is a great place for the beginner to start in this facinating and expanding field. There is also a series of 3 books called "Easy Pickin", they start simple and each next book covers more complex issues and uses.
Not only can you hook a thermal couple and other measurement devices, directly to a PIC but if they follow a non linear curve through their operating range, the software can compensate for it. I said the motor current is easily watch dogged by a PIC, but it is better if the computer actually controls the current and monitors it. The motor can be soft started, and the speed controlled to give the most efficient use of aux power. I have noticed that many new books on boiler design and control indicate that DC speed controlled motors are used on most new installations for the maximum efficiency. Even when producing millions of pounds of steam per hour.
I am not a very experienced user of these devices, mostly I have just run programs on an emulator, allowing development and testing of software on a PC, but I will gladly try to answer any questions within my scope of knowledge.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Lamont info and Fail Safe
Posted by: George K. Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: March 25, 2002 11:55AM
<HTML>Peter,
One of the questions in my mind?? is if these microcontrollers you are talking about have a compensated cold junction for thermocouples--this is a must for accurate thermocouple control. Analog Devices puts out a special chip just for thermocouples and could be used solely to give a meter output or soley close a circuit at a preset voltage(temperature). I have a few thanks to input from Dave Nergaard but the circuit developed includes several other components, transistors, op-amps, relays and such and a pain to build for my poor eyes.
Are some of the devices you mention have multiple inputs and outputs with individual setpoints?? Sure would make things easier(for me).
Thanks, George</HTML>
One of the questions in my mind?? is if these microcontrollers you are talking about have a compensated cold junction for thermocouples--this is a must for accurate thermocouple control. Analog Devices puts out a special chip just for thermocouples and could be used solely to give a meter output or soley close a circuit at a preset voltage(temperature). I have a few thanks to input from Dave Nergaard but the circuit developed includes several other components, transistors, op-amps, relays and such and a pain to build for my poor eyes.
Are some of the devices you mention have multiple inputs and outputs with individual setpoints?? Sure would make things easier(for me).
Thanks, George</HTML>
Re: Lamont info and Fail Safe
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: March 26, 2002 06:01PM
<HTML>Thank's Peter
I've added PIC Microcontroller Project Book to my Barnes & Noble wish list. It will have to wait untill after Oak Ridge, if I am to have any hope of getting there.
I had a bit of trouble hunting down the second titles you recomended. The name seems to be a bit diffrent.
Easy PIC'n: A Beginner's Guide to Using PIC Microcontrollers 3.1 David Benson / Paperback / Square 1 Electronics / July 1996
Again
Thank You
Garry</HTML>
I've added PIC Microcontroller Project Book to my Barnes & Noble wish list. It will have to wait untill after Oak Ridge, if I am to have any hope of getting there.
I had a bit of trouble hunting down the second titles you recomended. The name seems to be a bit diffrent.
Easy PIC'n: A Beginner's Guide to Using PIC Microcontrollers 3.1 David Benson / Paperback / Square 1 Electronics / July 1996
Again
Thank You
Garry</HTML>
Re: Lamont info and Fail Safe
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: April 03, 2002 01:13PM
<HTML>George,
I was checking to see if anyone gave the info on a reference junction when connected to a microcontroller but things seem a bit vague. The industrial books I have mention the use of a junction in a regulated enviroment such as burried 10 feet or more in the ground, this gives a regulation of about 5 degrees. To compensate for changes in an enviroment where the ambient temperature effects the reference cold junction by 100 degrees or more in an electronic fashion would prove a definite challenge. I think the best path to to follow is the one written in software. Put a cold junction on a portion of the equiptment where the temperature change is the slowest, maybe a shielded portion of the frame, and include with it a $3.00 smart temperature sensor. This will provide an actual degree reference to allow a software adjustment to the cold junction reference voltage before compairing it with the hot junction voltage. The use of software will allow thermocouples to be run in a wider range with greater accuracy because adjustments can be programed for nonlinear outputs. Thermocouples designed for use with a multimeter would be easier to use when connecting directly to a microcontroller but the cost is higher. They must have a reference built in because with 2 wires you are feeding the meter a linear voltage that it reads directly. I have seen the infared sensors that you plug into a multimeter that go to 2000 degrees F. for about $120.00, probably less if you shop around. They would be great for lots of temperature measurements where the heat might damage sensors as they can be used from distances of a couple of feet, pin point aimed, with great accuracy.
Peter Heid</HTML>
I was checking to see if anyone gave the info on a reference junction when connected to a microcontroller but things seem a bit vague. The industrial books I have mention the use of a junction in a regulated enviroment such as burried 10 feet or more in the ground, this gives a regulation of about 5 degrees. To compensate for changes in an enviroment where the ambient temperature effects the reference cold junction by 100 degrees or more in an electronic fashion would prove a definite challenge. I think the best path to to follow is the one written in software. Put a cold junction on a portion of the equiptment where the temperature change is the slowest, maybe a shielded portion of the frame, and include with it a $3.00 smart temperature sensor. This will provide an actual degree reference to allow a software adjustment to the cold junction reference voltage before compairing it with the hot junction voltage. The use of software will allow thermocouples to be run in a wider range with greater accuracy because adjustments can be programed for nonlinear outputs. Thermocouples designed for use with a multimeter would be easier to use when connecting directly to a microcontroller but the cost is higher. They must have a reference built in because with 2 wires you are feeding the meter a linear voltage that it reads directly. I have seen the infared sensors that you plug into a multimeter that go to 2000 degrees F. for about $120.00, probably less if you shop around. They would be great for lots of temperature measurements where the heat might damage sensors as they can be used from distances of a couple of feet, pin point aimed, with great accuracy.
Peter Heid</HTML>
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