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735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: Arnoud Carp (IP Logged)
Date: August 09, 2005 10:17AM
<HTML>Hello everybody,
I recently discovered the generator drive of my 735 had broken off its position on my back axlehousing. On inspection I found the pinion to have two badly damaged teeth. inspection of the crownwheel revealed one damaged and one missing tooth. The broken off tooth had been crushed between the crown wheel and the pinnion for the generator drive. I suspect the broken off tooth was caused by priming the engine some while ago. I ran the car about hundred miles since this occurred before I noticed the damage.
I have two questions.
1 can anyone supply me with the aluminuim cap and the pinion for the drive?
2 Can a broken tooth on the crown wheel be welded has anybody experience in this repair or can advise against it? the damaged tooth is only damaged on the reverse side of the tooth. Or supply me with a replacement or has a suitable drawing to have one manufactured?
In the meantime I have blanked off the generator drive and intend to use the car carefully for the rest of the rally season.
I do hope someone can help me
Thanks
Arnoud Carp</HTML>
I recently discovered the generator drive of my 735 had broken off its position on my back axlehousing. On inspection I found the pinion to have two badly damaged teeth. inspection of the crownwheel revealed one damaged and one missing tooth. The broken off tooth had been crushed between the crown wheel and the pinnion for the generator drive. I suspect the broken off tooth was caused by priming the engine some while ago. I ran the car about hundred miles since this occurred before I noticed the damage.
I have two questions.
1 can anyone supply me with the aluminuim cap and the pinion for the drive?
2 Can a broken tooth on the crown wheel be welded has anybody experience in this repair or can advise against it? the damaged tooth is only damaged on the reverse side of the tooth. Or supply me with a replacement or has a suitable drawing to have one manufactured?
In the meantime I have blanked off the generator drive and intend to use the car carefully for the rest of the rally season.
I do hope someone can help me
Thanks
Arnoud Carp</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: Alan Woolf (IP Logged)
Date: August 09, 2005 04:25PM
<HTML>I don't have any experience welding a crown wheel but I suspect it might work OK. I know John Goold used to make replacement crownwheels. It would be worth checking with him to see if he still makes them. He may also have the other parts you need.
Alan</HTML>
Alan</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: Arnold walker (IP Logged)
Date: August 09, 2005 08:49PM
<HTML>The welded tooth will usually be harder......
On higher speed units that would be a problem.
Alan's other idea of total gear replacement would be "safer" due to uneven wear on welded gear,yet it would work if push comes to that.
Granted my gear experience is with industrial gearboxes on ships,oil pumps,and drives.NOt Stanleys......
And yes ,the maintenance machinist did work on some, that had been out in the field as long as that Stanley.At least your unit is probably cleaner than some I had to work on.(They looked like a chunk of something that might be a gearbox.)</HTML>
On higher speed units that would be a problem.
Alan's other idea of total gear replacement would be "safer" due to uneven wear on welded gear,yet it would work if push comes to that.
Granted my gear experience is with industrial gearboxes on ships,oil pumps,and drives.NOt Stanleys......
And yes ,the maintenance machinist did work on some, that had been out in the field as long as that Stanley.At least your unit is probably cleaner than some I had to work on.(They looked like a chunk of something that might be a gearbox.)</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: August 09, 2005 09:43PM
<HTML>Hi,,,That little gear is a problem,,,I believe it was origanly a rawhide in the middle,,brass ends to secure it,,,out of scale pinions tend to be noisy,,and anything under 15 teeth is not considerd good engineering practice ,or something like that haha ho ho,,,gear cutters,[milling cutters]are made in profile by #,,,,,,#1cuts rack to135teeth,,#2 cuts 134 to 55 or thereabouts #5 cuts 26teeth to 15 teeth,,,,there the program ends THESE # ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN for use but to get the idea of how it works,,,its too hot to bother get out the gear books,,,that generator pinion is around 9 or 13 teeth,,and a gear company does not make these things,,To proceed,,,you use a #5 CUTTER,, CUT THE TEETH,,,THEN OFSET THE ARBOR,AND SHAVE THE TEETH ON ONE SIDE,,,THEN OFFSET THE OTHER WAY AND CUT AGAIN,,making the 3rd cut,,Then roll a mating gear,the 60T against it to see if it will mesh smoothly,,,Sort of like FEELING a pair of differential gears in a gas car ,, for mesh,, ,I hope this will prompt some of the boys to write about bronze and ally pinions,,,I personally would stay away from welding the crownwheel,,its loaded pretty high I think and a failure would threatn the engine gear which has the eccentrics on it,,which MUST be one piece w/the gearbase,,,,as the engine produces enough torque to shear the key if the key is shorter,as in ,only the gear,, not, gear and eccentric,,, These gears are STD #6 pitch and should be available from a Mill suplier as blanks,Teeth can? be turned off and gear preesed on over,,,,,Please note I make no reference to price or difficulty,,If anyone wants to get involved,,very involved,,I have here a #13 Brown-Sharpe gear miller and a box of cutters,,,and a 4 ton Millwaukee universal Mill to do burner slotting,and most anything else,,,and a 30''casting that needs its teeth slott'd Cheers Ben P/S,,The black racer handles beyond my wildest dreams on DIRT,,,had 'er out on both soft sand and hardpak clay at speed,,,the back end comes around w/close to prcise // JUST where you want it,,Oh to find a 30 mile dirt Roadrace,,[not track] is that back road near Douglas still open and dirt,I wonder,,,A 100 miler would be good I think CB If you guys can't find me it's because i'm hiding over on the Harpsichord thread here on page#2 ! pink tink , lala poi' nggg pink .''...,</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: August 10, 2005 06:15AM
<HTML>Replace your "crown gear". I have seen this happen before on old Stanley gears. Once they start popping their teeth, more weak teeth will follow.</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: Arnoud Carp (IP Logged)
Date: August 10, 2005 08:06PM
<HTML>Thanks Alan,
I phoned John Goold tonight we are working out a cost/time schedule for a replacement He is just finishing a batch of gears. he will need the center of the diff for the final macining and hardening.</HTML>
I phoned John Goold tonight we are working out a cost/time schedule for a replacement He is just finishing a batch of gears. he will need the center of the diff for the final macining and hardening.</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: Arnoud Carp (IP Logged)
Date: August 10, 2005 08:18PM
<HTML>Thanks Ben for your thoughts.
The little gear has two damaged teeth one still has its proper shape but is bent diagonal, the other misses about one third of the lengt but looks ok for the part that remained. The crownwheel gears are of course designed for the engine duty and not for the generator drive therefore the pinnion is verry overdimensioned. I wonder if i can just salvage the pinnion by shaping what is left of the damaged teeth to their proper fit and leavi it at that. I think both affected teeths still have more than 50% of their original boddy left. Apart from the damage the teeth do not show any appreciable wear.
Arnoud Carp</HTML>
The little gear has two damaged teeth one still has its proper shape but is bent diagonal, the other misses about one third of the lengt but looks ok for the part that remained. The crownwheel gears are of course designed for the engine duty and not for the generator drive therefore the pinnion is verry overdimensioned. I wonder if i can just salvage the pinnion by shaping what is left of the damaged teeth to their proper fit and leavi it at that. I think both affected teeths still have more than 50% of their original boddy left. Apart from the damage the teeth do not show any appreciable wear.
Arnoud Carp</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: Arnoud Carp (IP Logged)
Date: August 10, 2005 08:23PM
<HTML>Thanks Pat,
I have contacted John Goold and he is preparing a quote for me. I will keep you posted.
Arnoud Carp</HTML>
I have contacted John Goold and he is preparing a quote for me. I will keep you posted.
Arnoud Carp</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: August 10, 2005 10:22PM
<HTML>Hi,,,John is familiar with these odd jobs I think,,,and can do the small gear too,,,,Was the pinion a rawhide??? or what material?? IF YOu CAN ACHEVE A REASONABLE CONTACT AREA IT SHOULD WORK,,,,OOPS THAT KEY aGaIn grr,,,,,It could be noisy,,,,try to get even contact,,,I am sure John will have words of wisdom on this,,,Pass along what you can ,,I will be interested as always,,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: Arnoud Carp (IP Logged)
Date: August 11, 2005 08:35AM
<HTML>Hello Ben,
The small pinnion is steel integral with the shaft, the short end is for the outside bearing the long shaft passes the inside bearing, a stuffing box and ends with a plain stub with a key I beleive thwere is also thread on the end. This end is fitted with a hexagon plug with threaded holes in each flat these have small screws that hold a leather sleeve to a similar hexagon on the generator shaft. I told John about the small pinnion as well bit he didnot react in a way as if he could make one, I will have hs advice on either option, remake or patching.
Arnoud</HTML>
The small pinnion is steel integral with the shaft, the short end is for the outside bearing the long shaft passes the inside bearing, a stuffing box and ends with a plain stub with a key I beleive thwere is also thread on the end. This end is fitted with a hexagon plug with threaded holes in each flat these have small screws that hold a leather sleeve to a similar hexagon on the generator shaft. I told John about the small pinnion as well bit he didnot react in a way as if he could make one, I will have hs advice on either option, remake or patching.
Arnoud</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: Arnoud Carp (IP Logged)
Date: October 02, 2005 05:38PM
<HTML>John Goold and his team (two sons) have made me a new crown wheel in 2.5 days. they used EN24T as materrial this was left un hardened. if required this can be done later (induction hardening) but the result would be about as hard as the cranckshaft gear already is. the unhardened material is already harder than what the Stanleys's have used in the first place. If peuple are interested I can describe the sequence and tolerances with which the work was done. After the replacement the gear whine at normal speed was noticeable so we will increase the tolerances and monitor the running in.
See you in Hershey
Arnoud</HTML>
See you in Hershey
Arnoud</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: Ben (IP Logged)
Date: October 02, 2005 07:11PM
<HTML> To check the clearence between the gears,,,lay a piece of solid solder,,the small sound stuff, on the gear,and run it through, then measure the flatted piece with a mike,,,That gets the clearence,,,now adjust for wine,,,on gas cars I like to try for less wine on power,and more wine on the overrun,,,better to have clearence rather than a bind, Stanley gears will be about equal I think,,,,,Good luck,,,Ben</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: allen blazick (IP Logged)
Date: January 14, 2006 01:24AM
<HTML>Arnoud, did you find the parts you needed?
<a href="mailto:jacarp@worldonline.nl?subject=735 crownwheel failure">Arnoud Carp</a> wrote:
>
> Hello everybody,
> I recently discovered the generator drive of my 735 had
> broken off its position on my back axlehousing. On inspection
> I found the pinion to have two badly damaged teeth.
> inspection of the crownwheel revealed one damaged and one
> missing tooth. The broken off tooth had been crushed between
> the crown wheel and the pinnion for the generator drive. I
> suspect the broken off tooth was caused by priming the engine
> some while ago. I ran the car about hundred miles since this
> occurred before I noticed the damage.
> I have two questions.
> 1 can anyone supply me with the aluminuim cap and the
> pinion for the drive?
> 2 Can a broken tooth on the crown wheel be welded has
> anybody experience in this repair or can advise against it?
> the damaged tooth is only damaged on the reverse side of the
> tooth. Or supply me with a replacement or has a suitable
> drawing to have one manufactured?
> In the meantime I have blanked off the generator drive and
> intend to use the car carefully for the rest of the rally
> season.
> I do hope someone can help me
> Thanks
> Arnoud Carp</HTML>
<a href="mailto:jacarp@worldonline.nl?subject=735 crownwheel failure">Arnoud Carp</a> wrote:
>
> Hello everybody,
> I recently discovered the generator drive of my 735 had
> broken off its position on my back axlehousing. On inspection
> I found the pinion to have two badly damaged teeth.
> inspection of the crownwheel revealed one damaged and one
> missing tooth. The broken off tooth had been crushed between
> the crown wheel and the pinnion for the generator drive. I
> suspect the broken off tooth was caused by priming the engine
> some while ago. I ran the car about hundred miles since this
> occurred before I noticed the damage.
> I have two questions.
> 1 can anyone supply me with the aluminuim cap and the
> pinion for the drive?
> 2 Can a broken tooth on the crown wheel be welded has
> anybody experience in this repair or can advise against it?
> the damaged tooth is only damaged on the reverse side of the
> tooth. Or supply me with a replacement or has a suitable
> drawing to have one manufactured?
> In the meantime I have blanked off the generator drive and
> intend to use the car carefully for the rest of the rally
> season.
> I do hope someone can help me
> Thanks
> Arnoud Carp</HTML>
Re: 735 crownwheel failure
Posted by: a22stanley (IP Logged)
Date: August 11, 2006 01:47AM
Boston Gear company can make new ring gears. A good inspection of the engine gear should also be made, although they are harder. John Gould in England may have the engine gear in stock
CWR
CWR
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