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General Steam Car topics
Steam Bibliography
Posted by: cjt1881 (IP Logged)
Date: August 17, 2005 09:00PM
<HTML>Is there a steam engine bibliography? I tried to find the book Steam Engine Design by ICS, but it is no longer available. I am trying to find out what was used in steam engines to keep steam from leaking out where the piston arm exited from the cylinder. I want to use that type of idea in my compressed air engine. I have seen literature for sale, but I don't know where to start.
Has anyone considered PDFing the non-copyright material and posting a steam engine database? If not, I'll be glad to buy the literature and do it myself. The local university and city library are next to useless for resources. I would appreciate any information.</HTML>
Has anyone considered PDFing the non-copyright material and posting a steam engine database? If not, I'll be glad to buy the literature and do it myself. The local university and city library are next to useless for resources. I would appreciate any information.</HTML>
Re: Steam Bibliography
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: August 17, 2005 10:18PM
<HTML>Are you recompressing .....the heat difference between air and steam
causes that to come out.
They differ on the way the heat from compressing is used.
Since the more you compress....the less you have at the output shaft.
Air engines will flow that hot air from the compressor thru the head jackets of the expander to get a thermodynamic version of more expansion off less air.
Other than that the steam guys have lots of "air engine" in their steam
engine info. May not know it ,but they do.....</HTML>
causes that to come out.
They differ on the way the heat from compressing is used.
Since the more you compress....the less you have at the output shaft.
Air engines will flow that hot air from the compressor thru the head jackets of the expander to get a thermodynamic version of more expansion off less air.
Other than that the steam guys have lots of "air engine" in their steam
engine info. May not know it ,but they do.....</HTML>
Re: Steam Bibliography
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: August 17, 2005 10:30PM
<HTML>Air engines are timed about 10degrees later than the timing you would run on the same engine running steam.
Difference in expansion rate does that......steam is faster than air.</HTML>
Difference in expansion rate does that......steam is faster than air.</HTML>
Re: Steam Bibliography
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: August 17, 2005 10:36PM
<HTML>One thing for sure .....you don't have your engine plumbed like the air tools down
at "Joe's Garage". The effeciency losses will have you spinning your wheels.</HTML>
at "Joe's Garage". The effeciency losses will have you spinning your wheels.</HTML>
Re: Steam Bibliography
Posted by: Kevin Harpham (IP Logged)
Date: August 17, 2005 11:14PM
<HTML>Not an expert here but I believe the packing in steam engines is a little overkill for compressed air. Get yourself an air cylinder and use the seal out of it if not the entire cylinder.</HTML>
Re: Steam Bibliography
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2005 12:10AM
<HTML>Chris,
I found the book on E-Bay. It is mostly about older engines and design theory as it was originally published in 1896. It is an interesting book but I doubt it would be too much help in the design of an air engine.
Air engines have to recompress the air if they are to run on a closed cycle. There is a little car being developed in France, I think, that runs on compressed air, it's tanks being charged at home by a compressor, it could also use some heat added in my opinion. As such they can get higher efficiency than most steam engines but the tradeoff with a steam engine is that the power density is lower. For this reason they can find greater possible use as high efficiency power generator units but "generally" put out too little power for an automobile.
Most of the high efficiency air engines operate on a Sterling, an Ericsson, or a Joule cycle or some combo of these. Power density is increased by going to higher overall system pressures. The one Sterling from the seventys that was tested for an automobile used a system pressure of around 4000 psi and I think used helium. Helium drops temperature as it expands much faster than air so a lower expansion ratio can be used.
The packing material you are thinking of is a graphite packing. It seals around the piston rod which is connected to a cross-slide which is connected to the crank-rod. The cross-slide keeps the piston and piston rod moving in straight line motion only so that the packing isn't wracked around and can maintain it's seal.
Go onto E-Bay or a book vendor and start with some of the older thermodynamics of steam or heat engines books. There is a lot of good data in some of them and most are not all that expensive.
Lots of Luck with it all --------- Bill G.</HTML>
I found the book on E-Bay. It is mostly about older engines and design theory as it was originally published in 1896. It is an interesting book but I doubt it would be too much help in the design of an air engine.
Air engines have to recompress the air if they are to run on a closed cycle. There is a little car being developed in France, I think, that runs on compressed air, it's tanks being charged at home by a compressor, it could also use some heat added in my opinion. As such they can get higher efficiency than most steam engines but the tradeoff with a steam engine is that the power density is lower. For this reason they can find greater possible use as high efficiency power generator units but "generally" put out too little power for an automobile.
Most of the high efficiency air engines operate on a Sterling, an Ericsson, or a Joule cycle or some combo of these. Power density is increased by going to higher overall system pressures. The one Sterling from the seventys that was tested for an automobile used a system pressure of around 4000 psi and I think used helium. Helium drops temperature as it expands much faster than air so a lower expansion ratio can be used.
The packing material you are thinking of is a graphite packing. It seals around the piston rod which is connected to a cross-slide which is connected to the crank-rod. The cross-slide keeps the piston and piston rod moving in straight line motion only so that the packing isn't wracked around and can maintain it's seal.
Go onto E-Bay or a book vendor and start with some of the older thermodynamics of steam or heat engines books. There is a lot of good data in some of them and most are not all that expensive.
Lots of Luck with it all --------- Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Steam Bibliography
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2005 12:31AM
<HTML>Don't forget to look at the ice making machinery that used AIR as a medium,,,not expensive gasses,,,Steam driven of course,,,A very interesting cycle, I think its in Appleton's ,,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Steam Bibliography
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2005 08:31AM
<HTML>Seem to remember German mining trains because of the explosive envirment used airengines.
It would tank up off a steampowered aircompressor then run several runs thru the mines before recharging again.
There is a website with references,but blanking out on the name.Can't remember whether it was written German or English either.</HTML>
It would tank up off a steampowered aircompressor then run several runs thru the mines before recharging again.
There is a website with references,but blanking out on the name.Can't remember whether it was written German or English either.</HTML>
Re: Steam Bibliography
Posted by: chris thomas (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2005 09:13PM
<HTML>Thanks for the suggestions. I have been looking at used book sources and considered buying some of the books on steam engines. I think what I'll do is buy a bunch of the old thermodynamics of steam engines, boiler designs, and the information on the Stanley, Doble, and White engines along with crankshaft design and theory, and post all of it online. I have yet to find anything like this available.
I don't know of any steam driven piston engines that are comparable to IC engines. So I'll use my compressed air design and make it steam driven and then post the testing results.
If anyone knows of anything like this already please let me know, no point in duplicating effort.</HTML>
I don't know of any steam driven piston engines that are comparable to IC engines. So I'll use my compressed air design and make it steam driven and then post the testing results.
If anyone knows of anything like this already please let me know, no point in duplicating effort.</HTML>
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