1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
William versus Kalina cycle
Posted by: ArnoldWalker (IP Logged)
Date: October 20, 2005 07:12AM
<HTML>Can someone explain why the light plants are looking at kalina instead of williams?
Or for that matter how they compare.....
Granted some folks maybe turned off by the ammonia used in kalina.
But it appears to be better than rankine or williams at the lower temperatures.
And the ammonia is actually less punishing, than steam at some of the super pressures in rankine.(Looking some of the materials that 1400 psi and similar pressures mentioned for a modern steam car required.)</HTML>
Or for that matter how they compare.....
Granted some folks maybe turned off by the ammonia used in kalina.
But it appears to be better than rankine or williams at the lower temperatures.
And the ammonia is actually less punishing, than steam at some of the super pressures in rankine.(Looking some of the materials that 1400 psi and similar pressures mentioned for a modern steam car required.)</HTML>
Re: William versus Kalina cycle
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: October 20, 2005 03:03PM
<HTML>Hello Arnold,
The main gain from the Williams cycle, as I understand it, is from the total recompression to inlet pressure before steam enters the cylinder. It is in this virtual elimination of clearance space and the resulting free expansion where the great gain in efficiency of the Williams comes from.
There may be an additional gain with the Williams because of the higher temperatures of the mix of inlet and residual compressed steam than that of the inlet steam alone (the residual compressed steam is at a higher entropy and thus compresses back to a higher temperature at the same inlet pressure). The math of this part has not been worked out yet satisfactorly, so it is still just a possibility theory.
Because turbines operate with a steady flow they don't suffer from any clearance space problems and the resultant losses from free expansion. All expansions go through nozzles and turbine blading gaining velocity. So there is no where to use a Williams cycle with a turbine.
As you mentioned the Kalina cycle does better than the Rankine at picking off BTUs at lower temperatures under say 5-600 degrees. Above that the two cycles are about the same. Ammonia is very kind to mild steel and doesn't react with it much so engine and boiler parts do well with it.
I would be concerned with the power density of a Kalina cycle in an automobile because of the extra heat exchangers and such. It would need some looking at anyway.
I am thinking that some combination of the two cycles might be a good approach. Anyway most of the stuff I am sending you is ready. I am trying to pull some software off of a computer that might help and it is being balky about it.
Do well ----------- Bill G.</HTML>
The main gain from the Williams cycle, as I understand it, is from the total recompression to inlet pressure before steam enters the cylinder. It is in this virtual elimination of clearance space and the resulting free expansion where the great gain in efficiency of the Williams comes from.
There may be an additional gain with the Williams because of the higher temperatures of the mix of inlet and residual compressed steam than that of the inlet steam alone (the residual compressed steam is at a higher entropy and thus compresses back to a higher temperature at the same inlet pressure). The math of this part has not been worked out yet satisfactorly, so it is still just a possibility theory.
Because turbines operate with a steady flow they don't suffer from any clearance space problems and the resultant losses from free expansion. All expansions go through nozzles and turbine blading gaining velocity. So there is no where to use a Williams cycle with a turbine.
As you mentioned the Kalina cycle does better than the Rankine at picking off BTUs at lower temperatures under say 5-600 degrees. Above that the two cycles are about the same. Ammonia is very kind to mild steel and doesn't react with it much so engine and boiler parts do well with it.
I would be concerned with the power density of a Kalina cycle in an automobile because of the extra heat exchangers and such. It would need some looking at anyway.
I am thinking that some combination of the two cycles might be a good approach. Anyway most of the stuff I am sending you is ready. I am trying to pull some software off of a computer that might help and it is being balky about it.
Do well ----------- Bill G.</HTML>
Re: William versus Kalina cycle
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: October 22, 2005 10:07PM
<HTML>Thanks,Bill
Nice to know I'm not the only one with computer problems...
Between the old computer dieing,the xp on the new computer
not running some of my programs and a getting a computer worm
that killed XP.
Then instaling an old copy of linux that runs my old programs in MS Window emulation.
I'm back .....Mozilla dialect of Netscape browser.(They are starting to get a scare with 15 virusies ...12 being denial of service attack worms like YaHoo got a while back.)
Still think that is better than MS with 5000+infections ID'ed....
Now to reinstall th XP .......at least ,the backup CD's and DVD's worked right the first time.</HTML>
Nice to know I'm not the only one with computer problems...
Between the old computer dieing,the xp on the new computer
not running some of my programs and a getting a computer worm
that killed XP.
Then instaling an old copy of linux that runs my old programs in MS Window emulation.
I'm back .....Mozilla dialect of Netscape browser.(They are starting to get a scare with 15 virusies ...12 being denial of service attack worms like YaHoo got a while back.)
Still think that is better than MS with 5000+infections ID'ed....
Now to reinstall th XP .......at least ,the backup CD's and DVD's worked right the first time.</HTML>
Re: William versus Kalina cycle
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: October 23, 2005 05:16PM
<HTML>Hello Arnold,
Linux is a lot more stable than MSXP. Part of that reason is that danged registry that windows uses. It's still arcane and the only people that have real usable access to it are the spyware and virus writers it seems. I have worked in it before and it's just too much hassle to bother with. The other reason is that windows operates in root mode only excluding the potential user with it's passwords and logins. If it is up anyone can write to the registry and insert programs.
I have had Slackware up and on the net for over three years now and seldom turn off the computer. It just works all the time. It wasn't untill recently I discovered that I had been operating in root all that time. The only firewall being the router box. Not one problem. Not bad for a free operating system.
I discovered that Mathcad up to 11 for windows works in linux using Wine, now I have lost my Mathcad disk and don't think it's around anymore. I have Win for Lin 4 but havn't tryed it yet.
Anyway as I mentioned to Andy it seems that the antispyware that MS is giving away for free (hard to imagine) works quite well.
I believe that the Linux and BSD communities are more than capable of closing up any security leaks once discovered, DOS attacts being the harder to repel because they come in through legal ports from outside computers as I understand it anyway.
Have fun with the reinstalls ---------- Bill G.</HTML>
Linux is a lot more stable than MSXP. Part of that reason is that danged registry that windows uses. It's still arcane and the only people that have real usable access to it are the spyware and virus writers it seems. I have worked in it before and it's just too much hassle to bother with. The other reason is that windows operates in root mode only excluding the potential user with it's passwords and logins. If it is up anyone can write to the registry and insert programs.
I have had Slackware up and on the net for over three years now and seldom turn off the computer. It just works all the time. It wasn't untill recently I discovered that I had been operating in root all that time. The only firewall being the router box. Not one problem. Not bad for a free operating system.
I discovered that Mathcad up to 11 for windows works in linux using Wine, now I have lost my Mathcad disk and don't think it's around anymore. I have Win for Lin 4 but havn't tryed it yet.
Anyway as I mentioned to Andy it seems that the antispyware that MS is giving away for free (hard to imagine) works quite well.
I believe that the Linux and BSD communities are more than capable of closing up any security leaks once discovered, DOS attacts being the harder to repel because they come in through legal ports from outside computers as I understand it anyway.
Have fun with the reinstalls ---------- Bill G.</HTML>
Re: William versus Kalina cycle
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: November 09, 2005 08:17PM
<HTML>Thanks Bill ,
Got the charts and tables in the mail today.......
It seems your thoughts are almost a direct quote of my own ,on both Linux and kalina cycle.
Nothing is proved until I have an actual machine working ,here's hoping we will both be looking at that car or??? at a rally or meet.
I think a steamcar that gives lightplant performance numbers would set the steamcar movement on it's ear.</HTML>
Got the charts and tables in the mail today.......
It seems your thoughts are almost a direct quote of my own ,on both Linux and kalina cycle.
Nothing is proved until I have an actual machine working ,here's hoping we will both be looking at that car or??? at a rally or meet.
I think a steamcar that gives lightplant performance numbers would set the steamcar movement on it's ear.</HTML>
Re: William versus Kalina cycle
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: November 10, 2005 04:53AM
<HTML>Hello Arnold,
Well we are working on getting some younger blood interested in steam and S.A.C.A..
As I mentioned back awhile, lightplant performance will be hard to approach in an automobile, but if their big turbines had to go from zero to sixty in six seconds, slam on the breaks, take a corner and then back onto the freeway then slow down for stop & go in a traffic jam and still get that high efficiency, then they could boast a little more.
The engine design I have been working on is comming along very well other than losing my mathcad disk. I am going to a spread sheet layout to run the cycles. This will determine things such as clearances, torque profiles and such.
I will say this much; When I said it will blow the socks off of a diesel engines efficiency I was NOT kidding.
Remember this is a two stage Williams cycle engine with a Joule cycle kicker for cruising. I might say more but don't want to sound like I'm boasting. Not till it's built and dynoed to everyones satisfaction.
Arnold, if you can get that ammonia cycle to work kinda like I layed it out you could be one rich son of a gun, courtesy of the power industry, so probably should keep the details under your hat and locked in your garage.
I suppose that either one or both of us proving success with these projects will gain a mite of intrest.
Best of fortune with yours --------------- Bill G.</HTML>
Well we are working on getting some younger blood interested in steam and S.A.C.A..
As I mentioned back awhile, lightplant performance will be hard to approach in an automobile, but if their big turbines had to go from zero to sixty in six seconds, slam on the breaks, take a corner and then back onto the freeway then slow down for stop & go in a traffic jam and still get that high efficiency, then they could boast a little more.
The engine design I have been working on is comming along very well other than losing my mathcad disk. I am going to a spread sheet layout to run the cycles. This will determine things such as clearances, torque profiles and such.
I will say this much; When I said it will blow the socks off of a diesel engines efficiency I was NOT kidding.
Remember this is a two stage Williams cycle engine with a Joule cycle kicker for cruising. I might say more but don't want to sound like I'm boasting. Not till it's built and dynoed to everyones satisfaction.
Arnold, if you can get that ammonia cycle to work kinda like I layed it out you could be one rich son of a gun, courtesy of the power industry, so probably should keep the details under your hat and locked in your garage.
I suppose that either one or both of us proving success with these projects will gain a mite of intrest.
Best of fortune with yours --------------- Bill G.</HTML>
Re: William versus Kalina cycle
Posted by: Derek Yates (IP Logged)
Date: December 12, 2005 02:48AM
<HTML>Dear Bill and Arnold,
Am enjoying your erudite discussions and am hoping will come to successful fruition. Have been steam proponent for many years and am predicting a steam or ammonia hybrid in our futures and have been hollering at the industry as we are the "Saudi Arabia of coal". At the College I attended at Bournemouth in the UK the whole Mech Lab was full of steam engines and so it was PV diagrams on steam or fail the course, the way life should be.
Have just finished Harris' biography of Sir Goldsworthy Gurney of steam carriage fame, so now I know where " being in the limelight" comes from. He did some superb early work and is unfortunately not honoured for his efforts and inventions.
All best with your mutual projects rew Kalina and Williams cycles and am assisting an Oregon lad re steam project for his national Science contest effort. Please keep me apprised of your progress as convenient to you. Thank you and all best regards,
Derek Yates</HTML>
Am enjoying your erudite discussions and am hoping will come to successful fruition. Have been steam proponent for many years and am predicting a steam or ammonia hybrid in our futures and have been hollering at the industry as we are the "Saudi Arabia of coal". At the College I attended at Bournemouth in the UK the whole Mech Lab was full of steam engines and so it was PV diagrams on steam or fail the course, the way life should be.
Have just finished Harris' biography of Sir Goldsworthy Gurney of steam carriage fame, so now I know where " being in the limelight" comes from. He did some superb early work and is unfortunately not honoured for his efforts and inventions.
All best with your mutual projects rew Kalina and Williams cycles and am assisting an Oregon lad re steam project for his national Science contest effort. Please keep me apprised of your progress as convenient to you. Thank you and all best regards,
Derek Yates</HTML>
Re: William versus Kalina cycle
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: December 18, 2005 06:59AM
<HTML>Hello Derek,
Just read your reply as the kalina cycle thread got buried in the background on the Phorum.
Thank you for your encouragement. Interested in what your young friend is working on for a project. If I can be of assistance please start a new thread on it or contact me by e-mail.
Good Holidays to you ---------- Bill G.</HTML>
Just read your reply as the kalina cycle thread got buried in the background on the Phorum.
Thank you for your encouragement. Interested in what your young friend is working on for a project. If I can be of assistance please start a new thread on it or contact me by e-mail.
Good Holidays to you ---------- Bill G.</HTML>
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.