1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
lubricating oil saponification
Posted by: John Mahler (IP Logged)
Date: April 03, 2002 04:01PM
<HTML>I have been wondering about saponification of lubrication oil in steam systems for a long while. I used to use lard oil and trisodium phosphate to make coolant for machine tools. It also worked well for automotive cooling systems, keeping the water pump lubricated. It mixed well with glycol coolants.
I was thinking that, unless the phosphate had some harmful effect on the whole steam system, this might be a good way to get oil to remain in suspension in feed water and perhaps survive the cycle throught the engine, to reunite with the oil in the feed water tank again. This is admittedly an uninformed question. I have no knowledge of what might or will happen to such a chemical soup in a steam engine.
John Mahler</HTML>
I was thinking that, unless the phosphate had some harmful effect on the whole steam system, this might be a good way to get oil to remain in suspension in feed water and perhaps survive the cycle throught the engine, to reunite with the oil in the feed water tank again. This is admittedly an uninformed question. I have no knowledge of what might or will happen to such a chemical soup in a steam engine.
John Mahler</HTML>
Re: lubricating oil saponification
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2002 07:25AM
<HTML>Hi John,
Lard oil, if I'm not mistaken, is an animal oil, and will break down leaving acidic & corrosive residues in a steam system. The 1909 White owner's manual originally recommended "D Mobiloil", which I think was compounded with tallow. This is overstamped with a warning: "All Oils Containing Acids Must Be Avoided", then recommends what I believe are straight mineral oils. As I recall, somebody on the Lightsteam List brought this up way back when. However, I have also read that tallow-compounded oils are still used in some steam systems, but I believe only with saturated steam.
Peter</HTML>
Lard oil, if I'm not mistaken, is an animal oil, and will break down leaving acidic & corrosive residues in a steam system. The 1909 White owner's manual originally recommended "D Mobiloil", which I think was compounded with tallow. This is overstamped with a warning: "All Oils Containing Acids Must Be Avoided", then recommends what I believe are straight mineral oils. As I recall, somebody on the Lightsteam List brought this up way back when. However, I have also read that tallow-compounded oils are still used in some steam systems, but I believe only with saturated steam.
Peter</HTML>
Re: lubricating oil saponification
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2002 12:07PM
<HTML>"compounded" oils, which means mineral oils mixed with organic oils, are used in applications where the oil must lubricate metal surfaces in the presence of water. Thus they are used in steam cylinders with saturated steam. But the same properties that make them good in thiese uses make it almost impossible to separate the oil from the water later.
As oils will not boil at temperatures normally used in boilers, they remain in the boiler, where the organic portions break down into "fatty acids". Any oil in a boiler is bad news, compounded oils are worse. For this reason, condensing steam plants requiring oil in the cylinders almost always use straight mineral grades of oil. One reason tripple expansion engines using saturated steam were used so long in ships was that no cylinder oil was used. Water was the cylinder lubricant! Thus oil free condensate was available for boiler feed.</HTML>
As oils will not boil at temperatures normally used in boilers, they remain in the boiler, where the organic portions break down into "fatty acids". Any oil in a boiler is bad news, compounded oils are worse. For this reason, condensing steam plants requiring oil in the cylinders almost always use straight mineral grades of oil. One reason tripple expansion engines using saturated steam were used so long in ships was that no cylinder oil was used. Water was the cylinder lubricant! Thus oil free condensate was available for boiler feed.</HTML>
Re: lubricating oil saponification
Posted by: Jeff Theobald (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2002 08:56PM
<HTML>Hi All,
Here in the UK we can buy Morris super heat steam oil with 10% tallow, I have been using this for some time, as I find that it seems to keep the engine quiter, on inspection of the engine all surfaces are covered with a good oily layer which when wiped off, the steel is bright and clean.
I also use it in the cylinder feed on condensing and non condensing, and have not had any trouble so far, the boiler in the Brooks is now 14 years old, steel shell copper tubes, and so far shows no signs of oil contamination, about once a year I flush the condenser and water tank with parrafin, also mix 50/50 water parrafin in boiler, steam to 200 psi let stand untill pressure drops to 100, and open all blow downs, makes a good mess, but I think helps to keep the boiler clean. Jeff.</HTML>
Here in the UK we can buy Morris super heat steam oil with 10% tallow, I have been using this for some time, as I find that it seems to keep the engine quiter, on inspection of the engine all surfaces are covered with a good oily layer which when wiped off, the steel is bright and clean.
I also use it in the cylinder feed on condensing and non condensing, and have not had any trouble so far, the boiler in the Brooks is now 14 years old, steel shell copper tubes, and so far shows no signs of oil contamination, about once a year I flush the condenser and water tank with parrafin, also mix 50/50 water parrafin in boiler, steam to 200 psi let stand untill pressure drops to 100, and open all blow downs, makes a good mess, but I think helps to keep the boiler clean. Jeff.</HTML>
Re: lubricating ,,,er,,Biler ?
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: April 06, 2002 07:29PM
<HTML>Wow,,Gosh,,Knew I was miss'n somethin,,,,Now keep those Calif'' PAVE'' sniffers out of here.. Cheers , Ben.</HTML>
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