1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
flexable joints
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2002 05:56PM
<HTML>I was wondering what Doble and others did for a flexable joint in the steam line from the generator to the engine. With the engine suspended there must have been something to allow for movement of the engine while the line from the generator was rigid. I don't find any mention of it in his book and I have yet to purchase the note books. The industrial books don't mention anything like this, only bends in solid tube or pipe for expansion and contraction. A teflon hose with stainless steel covering is only good for 450-500 degrees F. and flexable joints would seem to leak with high pressure steam. I want to suspend the engine on my 2 wheel project but don't want the generator or condensers subjected to road shock. I must be missing something here.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: flexable joints
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2002 07:12PM
<HTML>Peter I have been wondering about this one for quite sometime myself.
This is just a thought, and I would love to hear some feedback from those in the know. Would it be possible to form a series of steam loops, similar to a coil spring, out of relatively thin wall seamless tubing? You would have to stay well below the yield point of the material, and it would probably be a good idea to place the center of the coil around the axis of the engines pivot. It would seem to me, on the classic steamers at least, that the distance from the rear axle to where the engine is pivoted would mean a motion of only a few degrees at the forward engine mount. This set up would require some really stout brackets from the chassis to stabilize the line, and the same thing on the engine to keep bending loads off of the fittings. Whether it will work or not, or even what alloy would be best to use, I leave that to more educated minds that mine.
Still thinking
Garry</HTML>
This is just a thought, and I would love to hear some feedback from those in the know. Would it be possible to form a series of steam loops, similar to a coil spring, out of relatively thin wall seamless tubing? You would have to stay well below the yield point of the material, and it would probably be a good idea to place the center of the coil around the axis of the engines pivot. It would seem to me, on the classic steamers at least, that the distance from the rear axle to where the engine is pivoted would mean a motion of only a few degrees at the forward engine mount. This set up would require some really stout brackets from the chassis to stabilize the line, and the same thing on the engine to keep bending loads off of the fittings. Whether it will work or not, or even what alloy would be best to use, I leave that to more educated minds that mine.
Still thinking
Garry</HTML>
Re: flexable joints
Posted by: Jeff Theobald (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2002 08:32PM
<HTML>Hi All,
This one I can help you with, on the Brooks the main steam line makes a 270 degree loop into the engine, as the steam line connection is close to the front engine mount, movment is minimal, the steam pipe is not held anywhere, only by the fittings at the boiler and engine, this has never given any trouble, the exhaust line has broken in the past after extreme movment over bad terrain, on the early cars with the engine vertical, the steam line takes the form of a U lying on it's side with packing glands at each end, this allows the engine to move with the U pipe moving in the glands, I have used high pressure steam cleaner flexible pipe, working well outside it's design limits, it's amazing how long it stands up to the job ( we always carry a spare ), over here in the UK we can also get stainless flexible concertina inner covered with a braided outer, very expensive and made to order, but working limits are above what the average steam car needs , hope this helps, Jeff.</HTML>
This one I can help you with, on the Brooks the main steam line makes a 270 degree loop into the engine, as the steam line connection is close to the front engine mount, movment is minimal, the steam pipe is not held anywhere, only by the fittings at the boiler and engine, this has never given any trouble, the exhaust line has broken in the past after extreme movment over bad terrain, on the early cars with the engine vertical, the steam line takes the form of a U lying on it's side with packing glands at each end, this allows the engine to move with the U pipe moving in the glands, I have used high pressure steam cleaner flexible pipe, working well outside it's design limits, it's amazing how long it stands up to the job ( we always carry a spare ), over here in the UK we can also get stainless flexible concertina inner covered with a braided outer, very expensive and made to order, but working limits are above what the average steam car needs , hope this helps, Jeff.</HTML>
Re: flexable joints
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2002 09:44PM
<HTML>We have the same stuff hear in the US. I have a two foot piece on my boat.
It looks like a series of bellows with a tight braid over it. The first piece developed pin holes the second year, but the second piece has lasted for the last twelve years. My piece is rated 500 PSI. with stamped ends. If you order it specify the ends you want. I wanted hex ends for a wrench in lieu of just pipe ends.
Rolly</HTML>
It looks like a series of bellows with a tight braid over it. The first piece developed pin holes the second year, but the second piece has lasted for the last twelve years. My piece is rated 500 PSI. with stamped ends. If you order it specify the ends you want. I wanted hex ends for a wrench in lieu of just pipe ends.
Rolly</HTML>
Re: flexable joints
Posted by: chuk williams (IP Logged)
Date: April 06, 2002 06:23AM
<HTML>Yes---I have the same type of S/S bellows-type joint covered with
mesh on my steam car, and it works very well. Rather inexpensive
also---I paid $32 for a custom made 1/2 inch pipe X12 inch long
flexible joint rated for 600 psi working, and 800 degrees F--that was last
fall, so I can't tell you much about the longevity............
Cheers---Chuk</HTML>
mesh on my steam car, and it works very well. Rather inexpensive
also---I paid $32 for a custom made 1/2 inch pipe X12 inch long
flexible joint rated for 600 psi working, and 800 degrees F--that was last
fall, so I can't tell you much about the longevity............
Cheers---Chuk</HTML>
Re: flexable joints
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: April 06, 2002 05:00PM
<HTML>Thanx for the information everyone. I remember my first experience replacing a broken point wire in a distributor. With no thought, I just ran a short straight wire with a little extra to allow the advance to work. About 2 weeks later it broke again. A little education provided me with the knowledge to make the wire long and wrap the extra around a ball point pen, giving a coil to take the strain more evenly than the stress point on the straight wire. I thought of the coil like gary mentioned and then thought of a coil turned the other way, held by the ends. Picture a coil spring being held at both ends and allowed to flex in the middle, much more pipe to take the strain than would normally fit in that length if straight. When flexing a coil in any direction, the stress is evenly spread through out the coils because of the increasing rate of stress to cause deformation. I use to work on air compressors and vibration will kill tube and pipe that is not coiled.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: flexable / Whatsis
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: April 06, 2002 07:43PM
<HTML>In case of economy /emergncy'/short run test etc [under 1000 mi][dont say I said so]] I have seen at least ONE restored prise winnin' Stanley,,,Just a couple 'O ELs and leave em loose,,,saves the hard to find Stanley Joint for later,,,,I suggest, Lap the threads a bit to get a better fit,, /less leakage,,Dont say U heard it here,,Cheers Ben Oh yeh ,,be sure to blow out the cr,,,,out of the pipe before connectin,,,Later..cb</HTML>
Re: flexable joints
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: April 07, 2002 06:46AM
<HTML>I have been thinking of that U-bend, with no mounting brackets, in some of the classics. Not only does it allow for flexure at the front engine mount, it also takes up any expansion the steam line itself experiences. Rather elegant and simple, I would say.
Garry
PS: Am I off the mark in thinking this behaves like a torsion bar? Hmmm, now where did I put my copy of Machineries Hand Book...</HTML>
Garry
PS: Am I off the mark in thinking this behaves like a torsion bar? Hmmm, now where did I put my copy of Machineries Hand Book...</HTML>
Re: flexable joints
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: April 07, 2002 10:38AM
<HTML>The later Stanleys used a kind of deep union packed with graphited asbestos, the same size as used on the piston rods, 1/8 inch. It gives very little trouble. I have had to add three or four rings of packing to the twelve or so in it over thirty years.
Flexible steam joints were used on every locomotive for the train heating line. Almost any book on the subject of locomotive design or accessories will give details sufficient for you to build something similar.</HTML>
Flexible steam joints were used on every locomotive for the train heating line. Almost any book on the subject of locomotive design or accessories will give details sufficient for you to build something similar.</HTML>
Re: flexable joints/U loop
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: April 07, 2002 12:14PM
<HTML>The oil feed is on the engine side of the loop,,,this keeps oil from draining to the superheater as well ,,Ben</HTML>
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