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Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: April 03, 2006 11:21PM
<HTML>I have been having problems with our 1916 Stanley model 826 noncondensing Mt Wagon in lubrication. After about 30 miles, at about 40 mph, the pump will draw air instead of the steam cylinder oil and it will almost quite winking. I stop and I tighten the oil pump packing nut, and everything is good for another 30 miles. It has the slow axle driven plunger, instead to the ratched type that was used in the model 740s, or the short stroke pump that was driven off of the cross head of the earlier noncondenser cars. Advice: "The heavy-bodied superheat steam cylinder oil used in the model 740, should be thinned 50/50 with paraffin (kerosene) so it can be used in the model 735 type plunger type oil pumps by as recommended by John Goold Steam Engineers." I do not want to thin the oil too much. Jeff Theobald thinned his oil to 50/50 and he said that it really thinned the oil out. I think that maybe that this is too much thining? What are your experiences?</HTML>
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: Rolly (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2006 01:37PM
<HTML>Hi Pat
Does this pump have the two check valves or just the one on the out board side.
The one I did a drawing of has the two. If the piston rod is lapped to the bore I don’t see why it would need any packing. It only has an eighth inch bore. It takes almost no pressure to push the oil into the line.</HTML>
Rolly
Does this pump have the two check valves or just the one on the out board side.
The one I did a drawing of has the two. If the piston rod is lapped to the bore I don’t see why it would need any packing. It only has an eighth inch bore. It takes almost no pressure to push the oil into the line.</HTML>
Rolly
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: Howard Randall (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2006 01:44PM
<HTML>Pat, good morning.
I think what you are trying to achieve is a 50% reduction in viscosity and not a 50/50 mixture.
I have to thin the oil on my 1920 with plunger style piston pump. I used a zahn cup which is a special (fixed measure) cup(s) with a hole in the bottom used to measure viscosity. For low viscosity (runny) fluids, the hole is smaller than for thicker fluids like steam cyl. oil. Thus there is a series of cups - Zahn #1,2-3,4, and 5. I used one that I bought from Sears to thin paint.
To use the cup, you dip it into the fluid to fill the cup. When you remove the cup from the fluid , you time the # of seconds it takes to empty the cup. Viscosity is often expressed in seconds Saybolt universal, or centistokes, or Zahn seconds.
Using this cup on TK1000 oil in the summer, I did an experiment. First I measured the viscosity of the oil right out of the can. I then took 32 oz. of oil and mixed it with 1 oz. of kerosene and mixed it well with a paint mixer in an electric drill. I again measured the time to empty cup using the method above and recorded the time. It was still too thick.
I cut this mixed oil again with 1 oz. of kerosene and again measured the viscosity. The time was about ½ (50% reduction in viscosity) of the original “out of the can” oil.
This has worked in all but the coldest weather. Cold nearly always increases viscosity for these types of oils.
I now use my wife’s best 32 oz. glass measuring cup ( this is important for politically correct inclusionary marital bliss), fill it to 30 oz, add 2 oz of kerosene and mix well. This would be about 8 oz /gallon (< 7-8% by volume) to achieve a 50% reduction in viscosity.
Even with this reduction in viscosity, I notice that if the oil level in the tank gets bellow 2”, the pump begins not to work because of the lower head pressure on the suction side.
The question still remains once you get the pump to pump, how much oil (proportional to pump stroke length) is enough. Not such a big deal on the high side for non-condensing, but critical for condensing cars. I run my non-condensing, 10HP, on the heavy side, my 20 HP condensing at about ¼” to 3/8” pump stroke. No squeaks from either car.
I am looking to move to a high temperature synthetic gear oil in the non condensing car with a Madison – Kip pump. This oil is clear, so the ON/OFF indicator rather than the more common “winker” is preferable to insure oil is flowing. Several owners are having good luck with this back east. Separates beautifully in the water tank and can be flooded off at refill. I have the name of the successor manufacturer of Madison – Kip style pumps if you are interested. ($300-400)
There are a couple of Stanley factory bulletins on this subject. One cautions not to use non-condenser oil in certain condenser cars. I believe this is the “viscosity” issue. If memory serves me right, the bulletin refers to a certain “Harris” oil to be purchase from White and Bagley of Worcester, MA!
The hobby could benefit from a “Modern Day” Stanley Bulletin on this and other subjects complete with CYA disclaimers and its own team of liability lawyers in tow!
As a reminder for others, I believe the owner’s manual speaks to a “special” packing ( I believe leather (?) rings rather then string style packing) in the piston oil pumps. In retrospect, I would leave old packing in place!
Hope this helps!</HTML>
I think what you are trying to achieve is a 50% reduction in viscosity and not a 50/50 mixture.
I have to thin the oil on my 1920 with plunger style piston pump. I used a zahn cup which is a special (fixed measure) cup(s) with a hole in the bottom used to measure viscosity. For low viscosity (runny) fluids, the hole is smaller than for thicker fluids like steam cyl. oil. Thus there is a series of cups - Zahn #1,2-3,4, and 5. I used one that I bought from Sears to thin paint.
To use the cup, you dip it into the fluid to fill the cup. When you remove the cup from the fluid , you time the # of seconds it takes to empty the cup. Viscosity is often expressed in seconds Saybolt universal, or centistokes, or Zahn seconds.
Using this cup on TK1000 oil in the summer, I did an experiment. First I measured the viscosity of the oil right out of the can. I then took 32 oz. of oil and mixed it with 1 oz. of kerosene and mixed it well with a paint mixer in an electric drill. I again measured the time to empty cup using the method above and recorded the time. It was still too thick.
I cut this mixed oil again with 1 oz. of kerosene and again measured the viscosity. The time was about ½ (50% reduction in viscosity) of the original “out of the can” oil.
This has worked in all but the coldest weather. Cold nearly always increases viscosity for these types of oils.
I now use my wife’s best 32 oz. glass measuring cup ( this is important for politically correct inclusionary marital bliss), fill it to 30 oz, add 2 oz of kerosene and mix well. This would be about 8 oz /gallon (< 7-8% by volume) to achieve a 50% reduction in viscosity.
Even with this reduction in viscosity, I notice that if the oil level in the tank gets bellow 2”, the pump begins not to work because of the lower head pressure on the suction side.
The question still remains once you get the pump to pump, how much oil (proportional to pump stroke length) is enough. Not such a big deal on the high side for non-condensing, but critical for condensing cars. I run my non-condensing, 10HP, on the heavy side, my 20 HP condensing at about ¼” to 3/8” pump stroke. No squeaks from either car.
I am looking to move to a high temperature synthetic gear oil in the non condensing car with a Madison – Kip pump. This oil is clear, so the ON/OFF indicator rather than the more common “winker” is preferable to insure oil is flowing. Several owners are having good luck with this back east. Separates beautifully in the water tank and can be flooded off at refill. I have the name of the successor manufacturer of Madison – Kip style pumps if you are interested. ($300-400)
There are a couple of Stanley factory bulletins on this subject. One cautions not to use non-condenser oil in certain condenser cars. I believe this is the “viscosity” issue. If memory serves me right, the bulletin refers to a certain “Harris” oil to be purchase from White and Bagley of Worcester, MA!
The hobby could benefit from a “Modern Day” Stanley Bulletin on this and other subjects complete with CYA disclaimers and its own team of liability lawyers in tow!
As a reminder for others, I believe the owner’s manual speaks to a “special” packing ( I believe leather (?) rings rather then string style packing) in the piston oil pumps. In retrospect, I would leave old packing in place!
Hope this helps!</HTML>
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: SSsssteaamer (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2006 03:23PM
<HTML>Dear Rolly and Howard, My plunger type axle driven pump do not have a check ball at the "inlet" side. It relys on head pressure to feed the oil pump. Howard addressed the issue perfectly. 8 oz of kerosene to the gallon of steam cylinder oil will make a lot more sense to me than the 50/50 blend suggested by Goold. The engine needs lubrication and a richer mixture than a 50/50 blend sounds like the right direction. I will cut the oil as suggested by Howard and I will see how it works out. On Stanley Dealer Bulletin number 206 it states:
The model 740 is equipped with a new type of lubricator which pumps a much smaller amount of oil.
The oil used is Atlantic 20th Century Cylinder Oil, a heavy-bodied, superheat steam cylinder oil.
Do not confuse the Atlantic 20th Century Cylinder Oil with the thin-compound, diluted cylinder oils (Atlantic Stanley Cylinder Oil) such as are used in the Model 735 and earlier models.
In delivering Model 740s to customers you cannot impress upon them too forcibly that the model 735 thin-bodied, diluted cylinder oil used with the 740 lubricator will not lubricate the engine.
Stanley Dealer Bulletin number 208 continues with:
Owners of condenser cars of models up to and including 735 and 736 must continue to use Atlantic Stanley Cylinder Oil for their engines.
They should not use Atlantic 20th Century Cylinder Oil which is thick, heavy-bodied, undiluted oil, and is provided for the model 740. If this heavy oil is used in the earlier condenser cars which require a thin diluted oil, it will give excessive lubrication, which while it will do no harm to the engine, but will have injurious effect on water pumps, condenser, boiler, etc.
The new lubricator has been well received and it's advantages are increasingly obvious....
The 740 oil box containing the 740 lubricator is mounted in the same place as the former oil box, and is rectangular. In addition to the box and lubricator, the actuating lever from the pump cross head, the cross bearing, and the indicator, will be needed. The list price of the equipment needed for the change is $38.70. We are in position to fill orders promptly.
Stanley Dealer Bulletin number 209 continues with:
...(the new model 740 lubricator) The design and construction are fundamental and reliable, permitting the pump to deliver with assurance the small quantity of undiluted oil which is required for lubrication.
The cylinder oil indicator on the dash is a dial with the hand following a semi-circle line, a segment of which is marked "Off" and the remainder "On". It operates by pressure instead of quantity.
The lubricator runs at a very low speed, i.e. one revolution to 135 revolutions of the engine. This accounts for the time necessary to build up the required pressure in the oil line and cause it to register on the indicator. There is a crank at the left of the oil box for hand operation in emergency. This operates directly; that is, one to one.
As soon as the delivery line is filled, it will be indicated by the hand leaving the pin, and the distance the hand travels will vary with the pressure on the steam line.</HTML>
The model 740 is equipped with a new type of lubricator which pumps a much smaller amount of oil.
The oil used is Atlantic 20th Century Cylinder Oil, a heavy-bodied, superheat steam cylinder oil.
Do not confuse the Atlantic 20th Century Cylinder Oil with the thin-compound, diluted cylinder oils (Atlantic Stanley Cylinder Oil) such as are used in the Model 735 and earlier models.
In delivering Model 740s to customers you cannot impress upon them too forcibly that the model 735 thin-bodied, diluted cylinder oil used with the 740 lubricator will not lubricate the engine.
Stanley Dealer Bulletin number 208 continues with:
Owners of condenser cars of models up to and including 735 and 736 must continue to use Atlantic Stanley Cylinder Oil for their engines.
They should not use Atlantic 20th Century Cylinder Oil which is thick, heavy-bodied, undiluted oil, and is provided for the model 740. If this heavy oil is used in the earlier condenser cars which require a thin diluted oil, it will give excessive lubrication, which while it will do no harm to the engine, but will have injurious effect on water pumps, condenser, boiler, etc.
The new lubricator has been well received and it's advantages are increasingly obvious....
The 740 oil box containing the 740 lubricator is mounted in the same place as the former oil box, and is rectangular. In addition to the box and lubricator, the actuating lever from the pump cross head, the cross bearing, and the indicator, will be needed. The list price of the equipment needed for the change is $38.70. We are in position to fill orders promptly.
Stanley Dealer Bulletin number 209 continues with:
...(the new model 740 lubricator) The design and construction are fundamental and reliable, permitting the pump to deliver with assurance the small quantity of undiluted oil which is required for lubrication.
The cylinder oil indicator on the dash is a dial with the hand following a semi-circle line, a segment of which is marked "Off" and the remainder "On". It operates by pressure instead of quantity.
The lubricator runs at a very low speed, i.e. one revolution to 135 revolutions of the engine. This accounts for the time necessary to build up the required pressure in the oil line and cause it to register on the indicator. There is a crank at the left of the oil box for hand operation in emergency. This operates directly; that is, one to one.
As soon as the delivery line is filled, it will be indicated by the hand leaving the pin, and the distance the hand travels will vary with the pressure on the steam line.</HTML>
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: Ben (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2006 07:59PM
<HTML>Hi Howard,,,Harris oil is in Providence,Ri ,,,, White and Bagley is in Worcester Ma,,,and their product is//was ,, OILZUM,,,a quality oil,,,They no longer make steam oil and someone , a few years back went there to see if they would make it available again,,,may have been Brent who lives near there,,, the ans was NO,,,at that time,,,Now I think we have better solutions,,,I would like to hear Nergaard and Bourdon on this subject,,I seem to recall Dave had words on this a while back,,,can someone help my memory,,,This is a very important subject to us all,, Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: Jeff Theobald (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2006 08:59PM
<HTML>Hi All,
Just an update on our experiments with thinning the steam oil, we found that using Morris oil superheat 1000 thinned 50/50 with paraffin, (about the consistency of light olive oil) cured the problem with the oil pump not always working, the winker now indicating every stroke, but you have to look hard to see it, we have now started reducing the amount of paraffin (60/40) at the moment, and the winker can be seen more clearly, at the end of a days run a clean piece of paper was left on the floor to collect the drips, compared with previous runs, plenty of oil is now getting through, and the used oil is back to its original state, showing that the paraffin is being evaporated off.
We will continue reducing the paraffin until we find a good mix. At the time the pump problem showed, thinking back, it was a very cold weather at that time, so the oil would have been very thick, which would not have helped.
When we have found the best mix, I will let you know, the pump type is from a 1919, 735, 1/8” ball on the inlet, and a 1/8” X 1.25” rod with valve face, on the outlet.
Jeff.</HTML>
Just an update on our experiments with thinning the steam oil, we found that using Morris oil superheat 1000 thinned 50/50 with paraffin, (about the consistency of light olive oil) cured the problem with the oil pump not always working, the winker now indicating every stroke, but you have to look hard to see it, we have now started reducing the amount of paraffin (60/40) at the moment, and the winker can be seen more clearly, at the end of a days run a clean piece of paper was left on the floor to collect the drips, compared with previous runs, plenty of oil is now getting through, and the used oil is back to its original state, showing that the paraffin is being evaporated off.
We will continue reducing the paraffin until we find a good mix. At the time the pump problem showed, thinking back, it was a very cold weather at that time, so the oil would have been very thick, which would not have helped.
When we have found the best mix, I will let you know, the pump type is from a 1919, 735, 1/8” ball on the inlet, and a 1/8” X 1.25” rod with valve face, on the outlet.
Jeff.</HTML>
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: Howard Randall (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2006 11:57AM
<HTML>Good MOrning Ben!
Thanks for cleaning up the history on the oil sources. I was just al little kid when this subject being discussed in the late 40's, and 50's!
Howard</HTML>
Thanks for cleaning up the history on the oil sources. I was just al little kid when this subject being discussed in the late 40's, and 50's!
Howard</HTML>
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: David Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: April 06, 2006 08:49PM
<HTML>The 1924 Stanley instruction book states that the pump can be adjusted to pum a gallon of cylinder oil in 2000 miles.
A non-condensing Stanley manual suggests adjusting the oil pump to feed a gallon in 500 miles.
Implication: the diluted oil was one part cylinder oil in three parts kerosene.
Suggestion: dilute it just enough that the pump works freely and let it go at that.</HTML>
A non-condensing Stanley manual suggests adjusting the oil pump to feed a gallon in 500 miles.
Implication: the diluted oil was one part cylinder oil in three parts kerosene.
Suggestion: dilute it just enough that the pump works freely and let it go at that.</HTML>
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: SSsssteaamer (IP Logged)
Date: April 07, 2006 05:34PM
<HTML>David, the reason for the 1924 operator's manual suggests one gallon of steam cylinder oil in 2,000 miles as compared to one gallon in 500 miles for the non condensing cars is because the condensing cars do recycled their water unlike the non-condensing cars which did not. Recycling oil laden water can result in possible oil damage to the boiler, and oil fouling of the water pump check balls. Also the 1922 model 740 came out with the new lubricator pump which used less oil because it was more reliable in it's precise oil delivery. There usually wasn't any thinning done to the oil for the non-condensing cars. The issue with this thread is: "just how much thinng of the steam cylinder oil is necessary for the model 735 condensing cars using the axle driven piston oil pump?" So far, the best answer has been: "Add 1 cup of kerosene to each gallon of steam cylinder oil, depending on the outside air temperature".</HTML>
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: Per Nielsen (IP Logged)
Date: May 20, 2006 09:48PM
<HTML>I have been running 3 seasons with Morris1000 not thinned in my 1919 735 with the later box lubricator and dial instrument. This have worked fine in all respects. The first season I ran condensing - big mistake.
Why do you thinn the oil?
Per</HTML>
Why do you thinn the oil?
Per</HTML>
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: May 27, 2006 09:40PM
<HTML>I have put on about 300 more miles now and the steam cylinder oil delivery has been flawless. With the TK 1000 steam cylinder oil thinned from full strength to 1 cup of kerosene to the gallon, that has worked well. I also enlarged the delivery line from the oil tank to the pump from 3/16" diameter to 5/16" diameter. I also reduced the stroke of the oil pump piston from 1 1/4" down to 1/2". I am looking to cut it down more as soon as I get a good reading of my oil use per mile. Full strength, the oil was slow to deliver in this winter's cold weather. Enlarging the line has to have helped. The extra long piston stroke was wearing the pump packing out prematurely. With the shorter stroke, it doesn't seem to show any pump packing wear. Thank you for all of the help.</HTML>
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: June 04, 2006 05:19AM
<HTML>I made a discovery today. The 3/16" line that I pulled off of the oil tank to oil pump, I used it today between the steam pressure automatic and the main fuel vaporizer. It leaked like a shower head with numerous pin holes spraying fuel all over. Fire too! It is the first time that I have ever had to use a fire extinguisher on the Mt. Wagon. The line was made of brass and aparently it must have been drawing air instead of oil when it was used as an oil line. Ahhh so. The mt. Wagon got another first place trophy today. Best of class. If I didn't have to change out the fuel line at the last minute, I would have gottoen to the car show on time and it would also got people's choice. As it was, many people had already voted by the time I had arrived with the Mt. Wagon.</HTML>
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: chuk williams (IP Logged)
Date: June 22, 2007 03:46AM
Greetings All-
Slightly off topic..I'm running dangerously low on steam cylinder
oil, and I'm searching for a source of the TK 1000 that seems to be the
standard one used nowadays...Does anyone sell it by the five gallon
pail or do I have to buy a 55 gallon drum??
Thanks--Chuk Williams
Slightly off topic..I'm running dangerously low on steam cylinder
oil, and I'm searching for a source of the TK 1000 that seems to be the
standard one used nowadays...Does anyone sell it by the five gallon
pail or do I have to buy a 55 gallon drum??
Thanks--Chuk Williams
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: Brad Austin (IP Logged)
Date: June 22, 2007 12:35PM
Hi Chuck,
Referring back a couple of years on this forum, Here's some info for a 5 gallon pail of steam oil. Just give them a call.
Brad
I have had a problem finding ISO 1000 steam cylinder oil for my Stanley. About 2 weeks ago I stopped at the local petroleum supply house for something else, and asked them if they had any ISO 1000 Steam cylinder oil. They said they did but it was in 55 gallon drums. After some discussion they agreed to separate the barrel into 5 gallon buckets. I bought one, but they still have 10 more. If anyone else is interested they will ship a 5 gallon bucket by UPS. The cost of the bucket is about $43, and shipping is about $20. The product is Conoco Inca oil, 1000. If interested contact Rich Walter, at 406-672-3324, in Billings MT.</HTML>
Referring back a couple of years on this forum, Here's some info for a 5 gallon pail of steam oil. Just give them a call.
Brad
I have had a problem finding ISO 1000 steam cylinder oil for my Stanley. About 2 weeks ago I stopped at the local petroleum supply house for something else, and asked them if they had any ISO 1000 Steam cylinder oil. They said they did but it was in 55 gallon drums. After some discussion they agreed to separate the barrel into 5 gallon buckets. I bought one, but they still have 10 more. If anyone else is interested they will ship a 5 gallon bucket by UPS. The cost of the bucket is about $43, and shipping is about $20. The product is Conoco Inca oil, 1000. If interested contact Rich Walter, at 406-672-3324, in Billings MT.</HTML>
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: chuk williams (IP Logged)
Date: June 23, 2007 03:06AM
Hey--
Thanks Brad--I appreciate the connection!!
Chuk
Thanks Brad--I appreciate the connection!!
Chuk
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: April 19, 2011 04:49AM
I am bringing this thread forward for John Kieper and Ron Schroeder. They both have 735 Stanleys and they need to learn about thinning their TK 1000 with kerosene as needed. This thread was a good discussion in understanding what oil viscosities and volumes worked best for the condensing cars. There are other threads on this forum that addresses other alternatives to using only TK1000.
Re: Thinning steam cylinder oil
Posted by: Ron Schroeder (IP Logged)
Date: April 19, 2011 03:03PM
Thanks for the good information on thinning of the cylinder oil. I also like the idea of a larger line to the pump. Think I might empty my oil tank and dilute it and change lines.
Thanks again,
Ron
Thanks again,
Ron
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