1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Maurice Kelsey (IP Logged)
Date: May 22, 2006 06:57PM
<HTML>My 1919 Stanley Model 735 all at once started smoking with fumes coming up into the car when the main burner shuts down. As long as we are going along steaming normal the main burner works good with no fumes or smoke. When the main burner shuts down at abour 525 Psig steam pressure the smoke and fumes are almost unbearable especially if we are not moving. The pilot burner seems to be burning OK. I am burning 40% gasoline and 60% diesel in the main burner and Coleman fuel in the pilot burner.
Do any of you burner experts have any idea what is causing this excessive smoke and fumes?</HTML>
Do any of you burner experts have any idea what is causing this excessive smoke and fumes?</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Rolly (IP Logged)
Date: May 22, 2006 08:48PM
<HTML>It sounds like your fuel automatic is not shutting off completely. Your still getting fuel in your burner without enough air to support combustion.
Also you may have a fuel leak in your vaporizer tube, when the automatic shuts off the fuel, the remaining fuel in the vaporizer is dripping on the hot grate again without enough air to support combustion.
You could be on the verge of a combustion explosion.
You need hot fuel to make that much smoke.
I’d like to hear about what you find.
My guess.</HTML>
Rolly
Also you may have a fuel leak in your vaporizer tube, when the automatic shuts off the fuel, the remaining fuel in the vaporizer is dripping on the hot grate again without enough air to support combustion.
You could be on the verge of a combustion explosion.
You need hot fuel to make that much smoke.
I’d like to hear about what you find.
My guess.</HTML>
Rolly
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: May 22, 2006 09:16PM
<HTML>How long after the burner cycles off does the smoke in the driver's area continue? Most of our Stanleys do the same thing, lasting for about 30 seconds, especially if I am burning #2 diesel. Kerosene doesn't smoke as bad. A remedy that several Stanley owners have done to reduce the smoking after the burner has cycled off is to reduce the size of the fuel line diameter between the steam automatic and the main fuel vaporizer from 5/16" down to 3/16" diameter. What this does is reduce the volume of fuel that will be left standing to drool through the main fuel vaporizer after the steam automatic has shut off the main fuel. Installing a large wire through this same main fuel line will also reduce the reserve of fuel left standing in the fuel line. If your smoke screen doesn't reduce after 30 seconds, you most likely have another problem of the fuel not shutting off.</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Maurice Kelsey (IP Logged)
Date: May 22, 2006 09:16PM
<HTML>Thanks ,Rolly Guess i will have to drop the burner again to check it out.
Will let you know what I find.
Maurice</HTML>
Will let you know what I find.
Maurice</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Ben (IP Logged)
Date: May 22, 2006 10:19PM
<HTML>Hi,,,My experiance is that the burner will function down to a verry lo fire and still behave,,[ no pop at nozzle],, I suspect a crack in the vaporizer especially if its changed behavor by it self,,,IF you had gone from 40/60 k-1/gas to 40/60 diesel/gas,,I could understand the problem,,The racer stinks on shutoff / w/ too much diesel,,got caught a time or 2 w diesel and no gas,, got it lit ok [ carefully ] but shut down was stinky,,,,Yours has changed by itself ,so I suspect a crack,,, IF THE vaporizer has cracked,,I would think it should run rich while running,, Hmmmm,,,, OPEN the top flap hold your breath and fan fumes w/your hand,,,burner on,,,,if its rich , your eyes will water,,,,, Careful,,the fumes are LOADAD w/ MONOXIDE ,,, use care,, As Rolly sugests,,a crack COULD produce an unsafe fire , so it's propably best to drop the burner and have a look,,,its safer,,, Glad to hear another 735 is running,,,,Where are you,,,Cheers Ben in Maine p/s we had hail,and a thunder storm last nite,,snowed on Mt Washington,,mini tornado near Potrsmouth NH, turned a trailer rig over,, Rumor has it all the mosquitoes are now somewhere south of DC ,,,,had the racer over to NHIS Speedway at Loudon NH saturday, parked next to a Masaratti racer,, ,Everyone enjoyed,,,CB</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Ben (IP Logged)
Date: May 22, 2006 10:42PM
<HTML>Hi,,,I don't see how the fuel would continue to the burner after the fuel is sut off,,,unless there was somehow a vent in the line? Not likely for obvious reasons,,,fuel would need to draw a vaccuum to continue the flow,,,,for the same reason I doubt the smaller line theory,,,would like to hear the results by someone carefully observing,,, K-1 and No-2 both have a wide range of evaporating temperatures,,,so the lighter cut vapors off first and burns,,,this is on shutdown,,,and finally the heavier stuff,,,[ that's the stuff that doesn't burn so cleanly] ,,as the burner is cooling down,, cools enough to not burn cleanly,,This is part of the smell problem I think,,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Maurice Kelsey (IP Logged)
Date: May 23, 2006 01:19AM
<HTML>This evening I remove the main nozzles and fork. I plugged the nozzles and put the fork back on. After I did this then I put 100 psig air pressure on the boiler and then opened the steam purg valve. The 100 psig air pressure held and it did not appear that there were any leaks in the fuel line over the grate.
The problem then must be in the fuel automatic. I will pump up the main fuel pressure to 120 to 140 psig by hand and disconnect the main fuel line between the automatic and the burner and see if it weeps.
I am here in Indianapolis and considered putting the Stanley in the 500 parade but due to my poor health I didn't even try to enter it.
Maurice</HTML>
The problem then must be in the fuel automatic. I will pump up the main fuel pressure to 120 to 140 psig by hand and disconnect the main fuel line between the automatic and the burner and see if it weeps.
I am here in Indianapolis and considered putting the Stanley in the 500 parade but due to my poor health I didn't even try to enter it.
Maurice</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: May 23, 2006 06:10AM
<HTML>Dear Maurice, The weep that you are looking for is the steam automatic not shutting cleanly off. The only way to check this is with a full head of steam pressure with the steam automatic cycled off. Turn your main fuel valve "just about" off, disconnect your out going fuel line from the steam automatic and see if it is leaking. If it is you have found your problem. Be prepared to quickly shut off your main fuel valve, just incase the steam automatic decides to cycle back on while you are looking. ----------- Dear Ben, the 5/16" diameter feed line from the steam automatic is coupled up to the main fuel vaporizer is at over 300 degrees f. and about vaporized most of it's fuel. You don't think that a hole about 1/4" diameter with hot fuel at over 300 degrees won't drool out down hill through the main fuel vaporizer after the steam automatic has cycle off? Think about it... Whats more is that after the fuel has cycled off, there isn't any more cool fuel entering the line to keep it chilled. With the heat conduction of the copper line, eventually the line is completely emptied. I didn't dream this up about this problem of the size of the fuel supply line. Dean Spencer addressed this problem back in the 60's and he used a smaller line on all of his Stanleys in this location. By having a smaller supply in your line, you have a quicker response of the steam automatic to the fire, and it is also a lot harder to flood the burner on a cold start up with the smaller supply line. The idea of inserting a wire into the line to displace some of the fuel in the line as a more recent fix presented by another Stanley owner on another posting. The added wire does the same thing as using a smaller diameter fuel line.</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Christopher W. Roberts (IP Logged)
Date: May 23, 2006 06:33AM
<HTML> Many factors can cause smoke. Leaks around the burner to the boiler, cracked vaoprizer, cracked grate, vaporizer length and fuel. On my 1922 I shortened that vaporizer to 3 1/2 feet. Useing strait unleaded it performes flawlessly. At this length is is not advisable to use a diesiel/ unleaded or kerosene mix. However even burning strait gasoline can also cause smoke if there are leaks. A leak between the branch forks and the vaoprizer was causeing a lot of smoke and it was a battle to lick that problem.
CWR</HTML>
CWR</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Mike Clark (IP Logged)
Date: May 23, 2006 10:18PM
<HTML>Yes - small pipe between steam automatic and vaporiser is a good thing. I have used a one eighth pipe (0.070" bore) but have settled on three sixteenths pipe stuffed with 4 pieces of 1mm copper wire because it is a lot more robust than the one eighth.
With this setup the burner is very tractable and lights up very smoothly. The reason for this is that there is no longer a great pipeful of fuel being forced into the vaporiser as the auto opens - this slug of fuel from a bigger pipe gets flashed off instantly and makes a sudden surge of vapor through the jets so the burner lights with a pop. The burner still fizzles a bit when it shuts down and sometimes smokes a bit, but less than with the big pipe.
It is also a good thing to make sure that the rod of the steam automatic moves very freely - do not overtighten the gland, polish the rod, and make sure the rod is not binding in the body of the automatic between the ball and the gland. A freely working automatic will respond instantly to the slightest opening of the throttle and the on-off range can be as little as 10-15psi boiler pressure. One of the problems of an infrequently used steamer is that the auto gets sticky but if you get all of this right (and have a good pilot) the burner becomes very user friendly and from the driving seat it is quite hard to detect when it lights up.
Sometimes on a level road the burner will be on very weakly because the steam auto is modulating to the small steam demand. This will cause smoke because the slight gas flow does not draw enough air so it burns rich - the answer is to open the throttle a bit to get a full fire then coast a bit so it goes out - or close the fuel valve til the steam pressure is low enough to get the burner going full.
I suspect the ratio of 60 diesel to 40 gas is too high. I use 60 gas to 40 diesel with a 6 foot vaporiser.
Mike</HTML>
With this setup the burner is very tractable and lights up very smoothly. The reason for this is that there is no longer a great pipeful of fuel being forced into the vaporiser as the auto opens - this slug of fuel from a bigger pipe gets flashed off instantly and makes a sudden surge of vapor through the jets so the burner lights with a pop. The burner still fizzles a bit when it shuts down and sometimes smokes a bit, but less than with the big pipe.
It is also a good thing to make sure that the rod of the steam automatic moves very freely - do not overtighten the gland, polish the rod, and make sure the rod is not binding in the body of the automatic between the ball and the gland. A freely working automatic will respond instantly to the slightest opening of the throttle and the on-off range can be as little as 10-15psi boiler pressure. One of the problems of an infrequently used steamer is that the auto gets sticky but if you get all of this right (and have a good pilot) the burner becomes very user friendly and from the driving seat it is quite hard to detect when it lights up.
Sometimes on a level road the burner will be on very weakly because the steam auto is modulating to the small steam demand. This will cause smoke because the slight gas flow does not draw enough air so it burns rich - the answer is to open the throttle a bit to get a full fire then coast a bit so it goes out - or close the fuel valve til the steam pressure is low enough to get the burner going full.
I suspect the ratio of 60 diesel to 40 gas is too high. I use 60 gas to 40 diesel with a 6 foot vaporiser.
Mike</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Mike Clark (IP Logged)
Date: May 24, 2006 08:07AM
<HTML>Sorry correction now use 50/50 fuel mix not 60/40.
Mike</HTML>
Mike</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: May 30, 2006 05:29AM
<HTML>I was out driving the Mt. Wagon today and I was low on kerosene, so I put $20 (6 gallons?) worth of #2 Diesel in with maybe 6 gallons of kerosene that was left, and it is now smoking a blue smoke that it has never done before. I drove another 50 miles and it never cleared up. I am going to have to add gasoline or run it all the way out to get rid of it. Kerosene at the branch forks was always invisable when hot. This Diesel is not getting hot enough and it is going in as a white fog even when it is hot. Something has changed in this diesel that I bought at the Chevron gas station. Diesel used to stink but it never smoked this bad before.</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Ben (IP Logged)
Date: May 30, 2006 11:20AM
<HTML>Hi Pat,,,Do you suppose this is the annual fuel change,,,Up here the dist'tors cut the #2 oil w/ #1 as much as 50 percent on a bad winter,,,Just a thought,, How long is your vaporiser?? Hope your memory is better.n mine,,, ,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: May 30, 2006 02:31PM
<HTML>Dear Ben, The vaporizer is 6' 2" long and I have never had a problem with it not being hot enough to run diesel. I only have had the Mt. Wagon on the road since September of last year. It could be that I when I have added diesel, it may have only been the thinned out winter grade. I have never ran straight diesel, usually straight kerosene, sometimes with a bit of gasoline added when kerosene wasn't avaiable. Because I have to keep the wife happy, I usually avoid diesel because of it's stink.</HTML>
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Kelly (IP Logged)
Date: May 23, 2009 12:17AM
I think I'm experiencing a similar problem, but with a different (and equally unsavory) result.
I had the pleasure this week of shepherding Gil Fitzhugh's (ex Gordon Smith) Model 63 through the Brass in Bucks County tour this week. This car runs a 60-40 diesel-gasoline mix, and burns strongly and cleanly. Pressure recovery in mild driving conditions is delightfully fast. (And we learned that it does want exactly 60-40.) The short line between the steam automatic and the vaporizer is stuffed with copper wire, per the 2006 portion of this thread.
We can drive & drive, and the fire cycles on and off beautifully. But when we stop, within about 10 seconds there's a pop from the front. Most of the time we were in the car and didn't see the action, but it appears that there may have been some weak residual flames after that, which didn't last long. The pilot was almost never blown out by the pop.
My first assumption was that the steam automatic was not seating perfectly and oozing some fuel. But generally there was only one pop, no matter how long we sat. And I tried shutting off the main fire at the hand valve before the automatic took it, when slowing to a stop. Still got the pop.
My best guess now is that it's the last of the not-quite-vaporized fuel remaining in the vaporizer, becoming vapor from the latent heat in the burner grate and vaporizer pipe. This vapor weeps through the jets, with insufficient velocity to mix, travel, and burn above the grate.
But why does it light? Does a finger of fuel vapor float in and above the grate, get mixed well enough to light, ignite from the pilot, and a flame front travels back out the mixing tubes? Does a finger of fuel vapor float up into the pilot mixing tube and ignite? I'm assuming there's no way to stop the fuel "post-vaporization", so there must be a way to keep it from lighting.
Gil said he couldn't imagine people putting up with this when they purchased these cars new. I added that F.E. and F.O. probably wouldn't have driven around this way either.
We put up with it for 4 days, until we got a pop about 3 miles from home on the last day that was big enough to blow off some of the sealer around the burner/boiler joint. Then it got even crankier, so we tried not to stop very often until we got back to the trailer.
I won't get to work with the car again until Saratoga Springs, but - what's a good next diagnostic step? (Or fix?)
Kelly
I had the pleasure this week of shepherding Gil Fitzhugh's (ex Gordon Smith) Model 63 through the Brass in Bucks County tour this week. This car runs a 60-40 diesel-gasoline mix, and burns strongly and cleanly. Pressure recovery in mild driving conditions is delightfully fast. (And we learned that it does want exactly 60-40.) The short line between the steam automatic and the vaporizer is stuffed with copper wire, per the 2006 portion of this thread.
We can drive & drive, and the fire cycles on and off beautifully. But when we stop, within about 10 seconds there's a pop from the front. Most of the time we were in the car and didn't see the action, but it appears that there may have been some weak residual flames after that, which didn't last long. The pilot was almost never blown out by the pop.
My first assumption was that the steam automatic was not seating perfectly and oozing some fuel. But generally there was only one pop, no matter how long we sat. And I tried shutting off the main fire at the hand valve before the automatic took it, when slowing to a stop. Still got the pop.
My best guess now is that it's the last of the not-quite-vaporized fuel remaining in the vaporizer, becoming vapor from the latent heat in the burner grate and vaporizer pipe. This vapor weeps through the jets, with insufficient velocity to mix, travel, and burn above the grate.
But why does it light? Does a finger of fuel vapor float in and above the grate, get mixed well enough to light, ignite from the pilot, and a flame front travels back out the mixing tubes? Does a finger of fuel vapor float up into the pilot mixing tube and ignite? I'm assuming there's no way to stop the fuel "post-vaporization", so there must be a way to keep it from lighting.
Gil said he couldn't imagine people putting up with this when they purchased these cars new. I added that F.E. and F.O. probably wouldn't have driven around this way either.
We put up with it for 4 days, until we got a pop about 3 miles from home on the last day that was big enough to blow off some of the sealer around the burner/boiler joint. Then it got even crankier, so we tried not to stop very often until we got back to the trailer.
I won't get to work with the car again until Saratoga Springs, but - what's a good next diagnostic step? (Or fix?)
Kelly
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Caleb Ramsby (IP Logged)
Date: July 25, 2009 06:28AM
Hi Kelly,
That is a very curious problem that you have there.
It sounds to me like when you are moving, the air being forced into the venturi tubes, via car movement, are keeping the burner from poping.
I can't think of any other big difference between what is happening when you are moving and at a stop.
You could test this while stationary by using a hair drier or a small fan to direct a stream of air into the venturi tubes when shutting down the fuel. Mabey jack up a wheel so that you can easily use up a bit of steam to drop the boiler pressure for the test.
If it got worse after that big pop that loosened the sealent between the burner and boiler, then mabey there was already a small leak between them that was some how causing it to pop when there was no significant underhood air movement.
If making sure that the seal between the burner and boiler is tight doesn't help any, then mabey a stack blower to get some air movement through the burner casing when one is stoping. Just crack it open a bit just before you stop, then close it after you get on the move again.
This would draw the bit of fuel that is poping above the grate where it could burn in peace and quite(so to speak).
Just as a reference, what is your fuel pressure, jet size and venturi dia. Mabey someone with a simular configuration is having the same problem.
Best of luck!
Caleb Ramsby
That is a very curious problem that you have there.
It sounds to me like when you are moving, the air being forced into the venturi tubes, via car movement, are keeping the burner from poping.
I can't think of any other big difference between what is happening when you are moving and at a stop.
You could test this while stationary by using a hair drier or a small fan to direct a stream of air into the venturi tubes when shutting down the fuel. Mabey jack up a wheel so that you can easily use up a bit of steam to drop the boiler pressure for the test.
If it got worse after that big pop that loosened the sealent between the burner and boiler, then mabey there was already a small leak between them that was some how causing it to pop when there was no significant underhood air movement.
If making sure that the seal between the burner and boiler is tight doesn't help any, then mabey a stack blower to get some air movement through the burner casing when one is stoping. Just crack it open a bit just before you stop, then close it after you get on the move again.
This would draw the bit of fuel that is poping above the grate where it could burn in peace and quite(so to speak).
Just as a reference, what is your fuel pressure, jet size and venturi dia. Mabey someone with a simular configuration is having the same problem.
Best of luck!
Caleb Ramsby
Re: Excessive Smoke
Posted by: Rolly (IP Logged)
Date: July 25, 2009 09:29AM
There are lots of reasons a burner will light back, the relationship between the hole size and the thickness of the grate. A cracked burner plate can also open up under heat and cause this. Leaks around the branch forks can ignite from the pilot or peep hole; the gap between the vaporizer of the pilot and the pilot body needs to be sealed very well.
When I first got my 1920 I had so many flash backs I could not leave my street.
I hydro my branch forks and found 27 pinholes leaks in the welds, my first rebuild new branch forks. Next I tested the pilot out of the car and sealed all the gaps and new gaskets to reinstall it. Now I could at least drive for most of the day but still had some flashbacks. I finely built a new burner pan with a tight seal to the boiler.
This solved all my flashbacks.
Rolly
When I first got my 1920 I had so many flash backs I could not leave my street.
I hydro my branch forks and found 27 pinholes leaks in the welds, my first rebuild new branch forks. Next I tested the pilot out of the car and sealed all the gaps and new gaskets to reinstall it. Now I could at least drive for most of the day but still had some flashbacks. I finely built a new burner pan with a tight seal to the boiler.
This solved all my flashbacks.
Rolly
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