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General Steam Car topics
STATE BOILER INSPECTION LAWS-
Posted by: George K. Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: April 19, 2002 03:27PM
<HTML> Have just attended a New Hampshire State board of boiler inspectors meeting after finding out our state laws have been changed due to the aftermath of the midwest boiler explosion. I was asking for clarification of exemption on the small Lamont "miniature" boiler and also questioning the laws that only exempt antique motor vehicles used only for hobby/exhibition/educational purposes if the boiler inside diameter is less than 12 inches. So long Stanleys, NH is a ASME code state and the new boiler inspector appears adamant that they pass ASME codes with an ASME approved safety valve!!! Not only could they not give opinions on the Lamont design they would not give me a sense of direction for the Stanley owners in this "Live Free or Die" state. Having pointed out that ASME codes do not consider wire wrapped boilers nor has anyone been seriously injured or killed by any steam car or steamboat plus other things.
The subchapter on Exemptions appears to remove many small boilers from the "Chapter", that is the entire Chapter 157-A BOILER & PRESSURE VESSELS INSPECTION LAW that would remove the boiler inspector from any authority to inspect an exempted boiler but he still insists that parts of 157-A still would apply as "this is a ASME code state"!! Not applicable but still applicable it seems. I mentioned that a White or Doble steam car would be totally exempt as they have no drums and are not considered pressure vessels---the board of 8 could not answere that either. It doesn't appear that they knew what I was talking about or my mentally given examples of stress calculations and factors of safety as used by Babcox & Wilcox.
So forum members please give input on your own State codes and exemptions as the dominoes are falling in reaction to that boiler explosion.
Let us find out what our state governments are changing or have passed that may interfere with our steam persuits.
Best, George</HTML>
The subchapter on Exemptions appears to remove many small boilers from the "Chapter", that is the entire Chapter 157-A BOILER & PRESSURE VESSELS INSPECTION LAW that would remove the boiler inspector from any authority to inspect an exempted boiler but he still insists that parts of 157-A still would apply as "this is a ASME code state"!! Not applicable but still applicable it seems. I mentioned that a White or Doble steam car would be totally exempt as they have no drums and are not considered pressure vessels---the board of 8 could not answere that either. It doesn't appear that they knew what I was talking about or my mentally given examples of stress calculations and factors of safety as used by Babcox & Wilcox.
So forum members please give input on your own State codes and exemptions as the dominoes are falling in reaction to that boiler explosion.
Let us find out what our state governments are changing or have passed that may interfere with our steam persuits.
Best, George</HTML>
Re: STATE BOILER INSPECTION LAWS-
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: April 20, 2002 08:12AM
<HTML>I recommended something along the lines of a National Steam Power Association, patterned in at least a limited way along the lines of the Experimental Aircraft Ass., or the NRA for that matter, back at the time of the mid west explosion.
I do believe it would be in our own self interest to consider starting such an organization on a national basis. (Government types respect groups far more than individuals) If we don’t, we will find ourselves at the whim of the local politically appointed inspector, without any viable method of fighting decisions handed down by a bureaucrat. A bureaucrat that doesn’t want to waste their time on some ‘old piece of junk’ or a new ‘one off’ design.
What ever this organization ends up as, it needs the backing of interested mechanical engineers and attorneys that are involved, and preferably own, a steam powered vehicle, boat, traction engine, or what have you.
Stanley’s are not my primary interest, but they are the most numerous orginal steamer still on the road. No engineering book I have ever looked at has even mentioned the design of wire wound reinforced boiler shells. The fact that they have been in use, with a remarkable safety record, for over a hundred years will not mean a thing to a button pusher whose government mandated and issued hand book does not tell them what to do. This is where such an origination can really come into play. By spreading the work effort, and expense, (You would be amazed how many people belong to the EAA that will never own a aircraft), we can show local, sate and federal officials that we are serious about the safety of our ‘hobby’. We will probably have to be able to show engineering data, in some cases an actual test to destruction (good luck on blowing up a solid Stanley boiler). I would recommend we develop some basic guide lines, that we require for the steam equipment, and knowlge of operation, we need to allow members to fire up at our ‘organized’ meets. (This can actually be as simple as an association approved (member) inspector dropping by your place on the weekend to watch you fire up your steamer and do a bit of a tour for the afternoon. Personally, I would far rather deal with someone involved in the ‘hobby’ as some bureaucrat that will panic at the first sign of a vaporizing burner flare up)
The effect the original handful of EAA members had in the early days of the rebirth of home built aircraft movement in America was immense. Today, the EAA is not only the major lobbyist organization for private aviation, they also became instrumental in the drawing up of the regulations governing civil aviation itself, not mention helping the person building their own dream, or restoration, jump through the government’s hoops. With out the EAA there would be no home built aircraft today, and private avation itself might not even exist!
One thing I do guarantee you, if we fight this as lone individuals, our steamers will all become static displays in museums, or so radically modified you wont recognize them. Together, we just might have a chance to write the laws and boiler inspection guidelines for our ‘hobby’ ourselves, rather than being subjected to the mandates of bureaucrats and government departments looking to increase their own budgets at our expense.
Garry</HTML>
I do believe it would be in our own self interest to consider starting such an organization on a national basis. (Government types respect groups far more than individuals) If we don’t, we will find ourselves at the whim of the local politically appointed inspector, without any viable method of fighting decisions handed down by a bureaucrat. A bureaucrat that doesn’t want to waste their time on some ‘old piece of junk’ or a new ‘one off’ design.
What ever this organization ends up as, it needs the backing of interested mechanical engineers and attorneys that are involved, and preferably own, a steam powered vehicle, boat, traction engine, or what have you.
Stanley’s are not my primary interest, but they are the most numerous orginal steamer still on the road. No engineering book I have ever looked at has even mentioned the design of wire wound reinforced boiler shells. The fact that they have been in use, with a remarkable safety record, for over a hundred years will not mean a thing to a button pusher whose government mandated and issued hand book does not tell them what to do. This is where such an origination can really come into play. By spreading the work effort, and expense, (You would be amazed how many people belong to the EAA that will never own a aircraft), we can show local, sate and federal officials that we are serious about the safety of our ‘hobby’. We will probably have to be able to show engineering data, in some cases an actual test to destruction (good luck on blowing up a solid Stanley boiler). I would recommend we develop some basic guide lines, that we require for the steam equipment, and knowlge of operation, we need to allow members to fire up at our ‘organized’ meets. (This can actually be as simple as an association approved (member) inspector dropping by your place on the weekend to watch you fire up your steamer and do a bit of a tour for the afternoon. Personally, I would far rather deal with someone involved in the ‘hobby’ as some bureaucrat that will panic at the first sign of a vaporizing burner flare up)
The effect the original handful of EAA members had in the early days of the rebirth of home built aircraft movement in America was immense. Today, the EAA is not only the major lobbyist organization for private aviation, they also became instrumental in the drawing up of the regulations governing civil aviation itself, not mention helping the person building their own dream, or restoration, jump through the government’s hoops. With out the EAA there would be no home built aircraft today, and private avation itself might not even exist!
One thing I do guarantee you, if we fight this as lone individuals, our steamers will all become static displays in museums, or so radically modified you wont recognize them. Together, we just might have a chance to write the laws and boiler inspection guidelines for our ‘hobby’ ourselves, rather than being subjected to the mandates of bureaucrats and government departments looking to increase their own budgets at our expense.
Garry</HTML>
Re: STATE BOILER INSPECTION LAWS-
Posted by: Buster Brown (IP Logged)
Date: April 26, 2002 03:00AM
<HTML> Steam cars I am not familar with steam cars. Just look at this site to see what I can learn I drove in the great american race in 1987 ther was a stanley steamer in there and I could not take my eyes off it thought it was great Do most states require a inspection on Boilers that small . I owned a small steam tractor and state of arizona said it was to small and exempt . I dont know if they went by square in off boiler or how they fiqured it . Also have a new inspecter now and may be different story now . Just wondering how many states inspectet steam cars . In a couple of days i will post a message on my last steam tractor inspection . Buster Brown</HTML>
Re: STATE BOILER INSPECTION LAWS-
Posted by: George K. Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: April 26, 2002 09:57AM
<HTML>Buster,
Thanks for input, one thing you DON'T want to do is call the state boiler inspector as that may trigger an inspection, just hydro your boiler at 1.5MAWP, check safety valve and pressure gage and play it safe. The way to find out state codes is to look up the state laws under the Department of Labor. Not every state strictly follows the ASME codes, New Hampshire does but each state can modify the laws as they want. New Hampshire exempts boilers for hobby/historical purposes that have an inside diameter of less than 12" and a grate area not more than 2 sq.ft with a stamped ASME safety valve. Part PMB of the ASME code applies to miniature boilers and they are boilers of 16" inside shell diameter maximum, 20 sq.ft. heating surface, 5 cubic feet gross volume and 100psigPAWP pressure, they can be exempted by the state boiler inspector.
See what you can find out in your state and if there is any activity due to that tractor accident of last year in Ohio.
Best, George</HTML>
Thanks for input, one thing you DON'T want to do is call the state boiler inspector as that may trigger an inspection, just hydro your boiler at 1.5MAWP, check safety valve and pressure gage and play it safe. The way to find out state codes is to look up the state laws under the Department of Labor. Not every state strictly follows the ASME codes, New Hampshire does but each state can modify the laws as they want. New Hampshire exempts boilers for hobby/historical purposes that have an inside diameter of less than 12" and a grate area not more than 2 sq.ft with a stamped ASME safety valve. Part PMB of the ASME code applies to miniature boilers and they are boilers of 16" inside shell diameter maximum, 20 sq.ft. heating surface, 5 cubic feet gross volume and 100psigPAWP pressure, they can be exempted by the state boiler inspector.
See what you can find out in your state and if there is any activity due to that tractor accident of last year in Ohio.
Best, George</HTML>
Re: STATE BOILER INSPECTION LAWS-
Posted by: G. B. Gilbert (IP Logged)
Date: April 27, 2002 04:47AM
Re: STATE BOILER INSPECTION LAWS-
Posted by: Buster Brown (IP Logged)
Date: May 04, 2002 12:26PM
<HTML>Tractor inspection . I tried to get a 75 H P Case tractor inspected in AZ stared with a hydro at 210 lbs O K visual O K then they would contact me a ultra sound 2 weeks later they called and said to map it and get some one to ultra sound 3 days later they called and said the ultra sound man had to be asme class 5 certified . there is a ultra sound man in yuma that teaches it in schools does ultra sound for military city county and state they said he was not qualified... now they want a thickness shot every 12 inches on entire boiler inside and out also need to remove paint and get a liquid dye test on every seam on the entire engine. when you paid some one to come from Phoenix down here to ultra sound and dye test remove paint and repaint you would have 4 or5 thousand in a inspetion. the man that owned it sold it to a museun . Dont know iff this is state wide or just for yuma . the tractor accident in Ohio did not help any one .there is 2 or 3 steam engines in az but i have not talked to them about this do not know how they are doing.. Buster Brown</HTML>
Re: STATE BOILER INSPECTION LAWS-
Posted by: Mike Bennett (IP Logged)
Date: May 05, 2002 04:10PM
<HTML>Mr Gilbert,
I have tried to find the rules for CA, but the link is not active. Any idea where I might find it.
Thanks,
MB</HTML>
I have tried to find the rules for CA, but the link is not active. Any idea where I might find it.
Thanks,
MB</HTML>
Re: STATE BOILER INSPECTION LAWS-
Posted by: George K. Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: May 05, 2002 06:34PM
<HTML>Buster,
Its hard to believe that they want to put you thru all that ultrasound stuff, however a boiler over 5 cubic feet total volume is no longer in the "miniature" class and even they can be subject to inspection. Hobby boilers that contain less than 1.6 cubic feet internal volume are usually exempt but state inspectors can build any kind of interpretation they want---if the state legislature votes upon the change of law. Find out what Chapter of law pertains to your state inspector and go over it---he may be going over his bounds. Unfortunately tractors like yours tend to fit in the "non-exempt" category and they can be very tough. It is a sorry state of affairs if the boiler explosion last year can bring on such a thing---one negligent owner and the whole thing "busts" loose. Things are looking better in New Hampshire for now, nothing like a state senator or two to lean on the department of Labor!!
Sorry to hear of your state of affairs, George</HTML>
Its hard to believe that they want to put you thru all that ultrasound stuff, however a boiler over 5 cubic feet total volume is no longer in the "miniature" class and even they can be subject to inspection. Hobby boilers that contain less than 1.6 cubic feet internal volume are usually exempt but state inspectors can build any kind of interpretation they want---if the state legislature votes upon the change of law. Find out what Chapter of law pertains to your state inspector and go over it---he may be going over his bounds. Unfortunately tractors like yours tend to fit in the "non-exempt" category and they can be very tough. It is a sorry state of affairs if the boiler explosion last year can bring on such a thing---one negligent owner and the whole thing "busts" loose. Things are looking better in New Hampshire for now, nothing like a state senator or two to lean on the department of Labor!!
Sorry to hear of your state of affairs, George</HTML>
Re: STATE BOILER INSPECTION LAWS-
Posted by: John Mahler (IP Logged)
Date: May 11, 2002 04:47AM
<HTML> So, is there any way to establish, to the satisfaction of the bureaucratic establishment of boiler inspectors, a safe and certifiable boiler replacement for Stanley kettle type boilers? If a safe monotube can be found, perhaps the White, steam car owners and builders might be able to live with a regulation allowing replacement for daily use, while the original boilers could be used when the car is shown in a museum.
I ran into a whole nightmare of bureaucracy, in my state of Oregon, when I asked about the inspection procedure. I was informed that my boiler, if home manufactured, would be limited to 100psig absolute any time it was fired. It did not make any difference if the boiler was a kettle type, or monotube/Lamont. I decided to go ahead and build my boiler. I don't have to obey the law. I have to build a boiler that does not fail. If it fails, I am dead whether I die in the accident, or from litigation. That's the chance you take. For some who are more recognized in the hobby, it probably is not a chance to consider taking. While I abhor more regulations governing Americans, I suppose it is the only way to cope with insurance companies and politicians who want to remove all danger from daily life. Being a minority, we have little choice but take action before it is taken by the voting public. It always has amazed me that politicians will campaign to make the world safe from the dangers of hobbies such as ours, gyro planes, hang gliders, or noisy model air planes, yet make no effort to stop
people from killing themselves with the mixture of automobiles and alcohol, or recreational drugs and automobiles. What I mean by that is not that individual cases are not met with justice, but there is no blanket sweeping legislation on the basis of 'one' accident. The only defining difference, as I see it, is that the motoring public is a majority as opposed to we, a minority of hobbyists.
So Long,
John Mahlerr</HTML>
I ran into a whole nightmare of bureaucracy, in my state of Oregon, when I asked about the inspection procedure. I was informed that my boiler, if home manufactured, would be limited to 100psig absolute any time it was fired. It did not make any difference if the boiler was a kettle type, or monotube/Lamont. I decided to go ahead and build my boiler. I don't have to obey the law. I have to build a boiler that does not fail. If it fails, I am dead whether I die in the accident, or from litigation. That's the chance you take. For some who are more recognized in the hobby, it probably is not a chance to consider taking. While I abhor more regulations governing Americans, I suppose it is the only way to cope with insurance companies and politicians who want to remove all danger from daily life. Being a minority, we have little choice but take action before it is taken by the voting public. It always has amazed me that politicians will campaign to make the world safe from the dangers of hobbies such as ours, gyro planes, hang gliders, or noisy model air planes, yet make no effort to stop
people from killing themselves with the mixture of automobiles and alcohol, or recreational drugs and automobiles. What I mean by that is not that individual cases are not met with justice, but there is no blanket sweeping legislation on the basis of 'one' accident. The only defining difference, as I see it, is that the motoring public is a majority as opposed to we, a minority of hobbyists.
So Long,
John Mahlerr</HTML>
Re: Boiler failure%
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: May 11, 2002 03:34PM
<HTML>Seing as I cant recall a Stanley failure in 105years that resulted in a death,, ,,,, an that its alledged we loose 50,000 people a year to colin cancer,,,,,er,,,,,,perhaps someone should look elsewhere to save American lives,, ,,,, ,,,,there have been PROPANE incident,,NOT to be counted as a boiler failure,,, an that has happend to motorholmes too,,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Government Failure%
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: May 12, 2002 11:50PM
<HTML>Ralph Nader claims doctors blunders kill 300,000 people per year. With such a strong orginization as the medical community has created for itself, they have a cozy blanket of protection held up on one end by the government. I don't suggest covering up incompentence or ignorance at the expense of others but the need for the ultimate strength of an organization to protect our rights can be easily recognized.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Government Failure%
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: May 13, 2002 01:48PM
<HTML>Peter,
First of all, Ralph Nader was and is a consumate self serving liar.
Second, tell me one hobby steam car or boat boiler that has blown up in our collective memory, I cannot.
Third, A monotube is not a pressure vessel. I once was watching through the firebox window of a special Besler steam generator running in the lab at 3500 psi and 1400°F when it let go. Didn't even put out the fire, just went whoosh out the stack.
Fourth, if this goes any further, I suggest ALL of us contribute to a legal fund, find the right attorney, and sue. Try the attack of depriving one of his legal property without compensation, or whatever comes to mind. Expose the particular legislator in the press as an ignorant bureaucrat, liar, child molester, or whatever can be dreamed up. The only way to a politician's mind, if there is one, is to publically attack them in the media, they hate that. Accuse them of soliciting a bribe, anything.
Let us just hope that New Hampshire shows some sense, the rest will use that as a role model, if there is actually going to be a revision in state laws about hobby steam.
Jim</HTML>
First of all, Ralph Nader was and is a consumate self serving liar.
Second, tell me one hobby steam car or boat boiler that has blown up in our collective memory, I cannot.
Third, A monotube is not a pressure vessel. I once was watching through the firebox window of a special Besler steam generator running in the lab at 3500 psi and 1400°F when it let go. Didn't even put out the fire, just went whoosh out the stack.
Fourth, if this goes any further, I suggest ALL of us contribute to a legal fund, find the right attorney, and sue. Try the attack of depriving one of his legal property without compensation, or whatever comes to mind. Expose the particular legislator in the press as an ignorant bureaucrat, liar, child molester, or whatever can be dreamed up. The only way to a politician's mind, if there is one, is to publically attack them in the media, they hate that. Accuse them of soliciting a bribe, anything.
Let us just hope that New Hampshire shows some sense, the rest will use that as a role model, if there is actually going to be a revision in state laws about hobby steam.
Jim</HTML>
Re: STATE BOILER INSPECTION LAWS-
Posted by: G. B. Gilbert (IP Logged)
Date: May 14, 2002 05:16AM
<HTML>No, sorry, and sorry for the late reply.</HTML>
Re: STATE BOILER INSPECTION LAWS-
Posted by: Atul. Phadke (IP Logged)
Date: November 24, 2004 11:20AM
<HTML>
I wana get some info about state boiler inspection machine</HTML>
I wana get some info about state boiler inspection machine</HTML>
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