1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Saving the Stanley
Posted by: Graeme Vagg (IP Logged)
Date: July 11, 2006 09:28PM
<HTML>I think we are currently at a critical point with steam car popularity and at a low point with a trend uncertain.
Stanley owners or supporters may have a role to play in determining if steam cars survive on the road or disappear and only come out for special events as they are the largest group owning steam cars of any type.
One problem with the ownership of any classic car are the guidelines for restoration of vehicles and features needed for values to be maintained. Not all rules are the same and some guidelines that may require everything to be from the original year of manufacture are unreaslistic and expensive to follow. My undestanding is that a restored classic car needs several key original year components to be accepted as an authentic period vehicle. For veteran cars this includes five components from a list of seven or eight items that include the chassis, front suspension, rear suspension, differential, engine, gearbox. steering box and radiator. Components may be repaired with new parts to the original design specification. Other parts needed to complete the vehicle need to be from other vehicles made at the same time (but not necessarilly from the same manufacturer) are made to the original design specification.
So anyone with a historic vehicle is locked into a set of rules that preclude having a modern vehicle. While there are some improved steamcars being used, the subject of modernizing them has been the subject of heated debate and outright rejection by some diehard supporters of authentic vehicles. This has cause a strong division in views of steam club members that is large enough to prevent classic steamers from being saved.
There are really three classes of vehicles - original or restored historically correct vehicles; modified classic vehicles and modern vehicles that may include replicas of historic vehicles.
Original vehicles have the highest value and highest upkeep costs and probably the poorest performance - that all goes with the territory.
Modified classic vehicles have a lower value but this will depend on whether a restoration to an original high value condition can be made. Modifications may have been made to improve vehicle safety, reliability, performance and comfort and reduce building, running and upkeep costs - so for the benefit of the owner or user. They enjoy any concessions for road use that applied to other vehicles from the same period of manufacture - so may be exempt from smog tests, crash impact testing and the like.
A modern vehicle or full replica of an old design is regarded as a new vehicle and hence needs to comply with current design rules.
The last two classes give almost unlimited scope for Saving the Stanley for modern use, if there is a desire to do it.
If some want to fight about this, it would be best to divide now and go your separate ways, with the purists doing their own restrictive thing to retain the historic integrity of vehicles. Exact replicas can supply some parts for authentic restorations so have a role here.
There is a great amount of freedom in modernising any existing vehicle providing it retains origional safety features. The EPA does require engine changes outside the original makers range to be approved.
My gut feel is that Stanley fans don't want to be saved and are content with staying with original designs. Lack of original production upgrades would has assisted in the demise of steam cars by the 1920s so this attitude will not help the future prospects.
Those interesting in modernising steam cars in same way show post their contact details in the near future or join The Steam Automobile Club of America (SACA) if not already a member. There are no specific proposals being kicked around but I'd be interested in knowing how many like the idea of having improved old, or modern steam vehicles of any type.
Something will be done if there is a positive response, otherwise enjoy this site for as long as it exists and hope for the best.
Graeme Vagg
<gvagg@apex.net.au></HTML>
Stanley owners or supporters may have a role to play in determining if steam cars survive on the road or disappear and only come out for special events as they are the largest group owning steam cars of any type.
One problem with the ownership of any classic car are the guidelines for restoration of vehicles and features needed for values to be maintained. Not all rules are the same and some guidelines that may require everything to be from the original year of manufacture are unreaslistic and expensive to follow. My undestanding is that a restored classic car needs several key original year components to be accepted as an authentic period vehicle. For veteran cars this includes five components from a list of seven or eight items that include the chassis, front suspension, rear suspension, differential, engine, gearbox. steering box and radiator. Components may be repaired with new parts to the original design specification. Other parts needed to complete the vehicle need to be from other vehicles made at the same time (but not necessarilly from the same manufacturer) are made to the original design specification.
So anyone with a historic vehicle is locked into a set of rules that preclude having a modern vehicle. While there are some improved steamcars being used, the subject of modernizing them has been the subject of heated debate and outright rejection by some diehard supporters of authentic vehicles. This has cause a strong division in views of steam club members that is large enough to prevent classic steamers from being saved.
There are really three classes of vehicles - original or restored historically correct vehicles; modified classic vehicles and modern vehicles that may include replicas of historic vehicles.
Original vehicles have the highest value and highest upkeep costs and probably the poorest performance - that all goes with the territory.
Modified classic vehicles have a lower value but this will depend on whether a restoration to an original high value condition can be made. Modifications may have been made to improve vehicle safety, reliability, performance and comfort and reduce building, running and upkeep costs - so for the benefit of the owner or user. They enjoy any concessions for road use that applied to other vehicles from the same period of manufacture - so may be exempt from smog tests, crash impact testing and the like.
A modern vehicle or full replica of an old design is regarded as a new vehicle and hence needs to comply with current design rules.
The last two classes give almost unlimited scope for Saving the Stanley for modern use, if there is a desire to do it.
If some want to fight about this, it would be best to divide now and go your separate ways, with the purists doing their own restrictive thing to retain the historic integrity of vehicles. Exact replicas can supply some parts for authentic restorations so have a role here.
There is a great amount of freedom in modernising any existing vehicle providing it retains origional safety features. The EPA does require engine changes outside the original makers range to be approved.
My gut feel is that Stanley fans don't want to be saved and are content with staying with original designs. Lack of original production upgrades would has assisted in the demise of steam cars by the 1920s so this attitude will not help the future prospects.
Those interesting in modernising steam cars in same way show post their contact details in the near future or join The Steam Automobile Club of America (SACA) if not already a member. There are no specific proposals being kicked around but I'd be interested in knowing how many like the idea of having improved old, or modern steam vehicles of any type.
Something will be done if there is a positive response, otherwise enjoy this site for as long as it exists and hope for the best.
Graeme Vagg
<gvagg@apex.net.au></HTML>
Re: Saving the Stanley
Posted by: Ben (IP Logged)
Date: July 12, 2006 01:23AM
<HTML> Before we get too far into hate and discontent,,,,please read '' The gentle art of faking furnature'' by Herbert Cresinsky,,,1936 [about] Curator of Victoria and Albert Museum ,,,People will collect,,,some will drive,,,others will fix,,If ya cant run with the big dogs,,,stay on the porch,,,,This is NOT intended to be an insult,,,only to air a view,,correct or otherwise,,,,Ben // and I still dont like juce brakes,,cb</HTML>
Re: Saving the Stanley
Posted by: Ben (IP Logged)
Date: July 12, 2006 02:00AM
<HTML> During the past few years there have been largest gatherings of steam cars ever,,,,100 years after Freds record,,,Fred is almost forgottn,,,BUT, the name STANLEY is still recognized,A record number of steamers were at the 100th anneversary at Mt Washington,,and at the recent meet at Ormund--Daytona,, in the middle of the winter is testamony to our being able to get cars out,,,,,,,school kids still have an idea, I have had the kids at Burger King come running over shouting '' its the real thing,,,its a STANLEY..and there was no name on the car,,,they RECOGNIZED it ,,Many old steamers came out to be used during the war,, as Kerosene was available,,,then the cars went to hiding again,,,a few meets [Henry Wing] got perhaps a half dozen cars , in the early 50s,,,that was considerd a good meet,,Has anyone noticed where D Nergaard has driven that old 735 to meets,,,and rain or shine,,He was at the last SACA meet in Rhode Island, pouring rain and no sidecurtains,,,Not so long ago, to OHIO,, and maybee Canada?? an' this is not a restored car,,So Stanleys are still out there,,,we just got outnumberd,,,At Castle Hill and Worcester Hillclimb,,,I was one of few that DROVE to the race,,and home after,,Chase car was a 1925 Packard,,,Nergaard went modern that day,[1922,,Stanley,,735] 1900--1913 were the elegable years,,,THE NETWORK OF CONTACTS is key to the future, Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Saving the Stanley
Posted by: Graeme Vagg (IP Logged)
Date: July 12, 2006 02:10PM
<HTML>Ben,
It is a different story here and there are very few operational Stanleys on the road. I've heard most of the owners can't afford to repair them. The name is associated with steam cars that were once used, thats about all. The National Museum has two that are not in running condition and there is no display space available for them. Policy seems to not restore vehicles but display them "as is". They prefer to find exhibits in natural working condition and not ones that have been rebuilt to showroom condition and better than new.
Like USA, the English buyers have been picking up any offered for sale and taking them away. Restoring old steam cars has become very expensive and time consuming for owners. Costs don't get mentioned but are unaffordable for the averge joe.
We have a very healthy collection of classic cars out here and a lot come to Canberra for national rallys. Working steamers are almost non existant. One steamer restorer thought there may be only 3 working Stanleys here but I haven't been able to confirm that. I've seen several laid up or in museums but none working so this gives me no confidence for a healthy level of interest in steam cars. A small number of wealthy collectors have them, thats all. There also seems little enthusiasm for any additional steamers, hence the initial post on this topic.
Regards,
Graeme</HTML>
It is a different story here and there are very few operational Stanleys on the road. I've heard most of the owners can't afford to repair them. The name is associated with steam cars that were once used, thats about all. The National Museum has two that are not in running condition and there is no display space available for them. Policy seems to not restore vehicles but display them "as is". They prefer to find exhibits in natural working condition and not ones that have been rebuilt to showroom condition and better than new.
Like USA, the English buyers have been picking up any offered for sale and taking them away. Restoring old steam cars has become very expensive and time consuming for owners. Costs don't get mentioned but are unaffordable for the averge joe.
We have a very healthy collection of classic cars out here and a lot come to Canberra for national rallys. Working steamers are almost non existant. One steamer restorer thought there may be only 3 working Stanleys here but I haven't been able to confirm that. I've seen several laid up or in museums but none working so this gives me no confidence for a healthy level of interest in steam cars. A small number of wealthy collectors have them, thats all. There also seems little enthusiasm for any additional steamers, hence the initial post on this topic.
Regards,
Graeme</HTML>
Re: Saving the Stanley
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: July 12, 2006 03:01PM
<HTML>Hi Graeme
The SACA meets I have attended always have a good mix of the classes you suggest. Everyone seams to get along just fine.
You know my interests are in a mordern steamer. But I love the old steamers. Would love to own one. But old steamers are expensive and I feal that one could build a mordern steamer for about what an old one costs now.
I don't think you can fit everyone into a single catagory.
But to answer your question. I have had my web site up for about 10 years now. Over that time I have gotten maybe 30 inquiries.
Andy</HTML>
The SACA meets I have attended always have a good mix of the classes you suggest. Everyone seams to get along just fine.
You know my interests are in a mordern steamer. But I love the old steamers. Would love to own one. But old steamers are expensive and I feal that one could build a mordern steamer for about what an old one costs now.
I don't think you can fit everyone into a single catagory.
But to answer your question. I have had my web site up for about 10 years now. Over that time I have gotten maybe 30 inquiries.
Andy</HTML>
Re: Saving the Stanley
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: July 13, 2006 03:14AM
<HTML>Graeme
The situation in Australia is not as you describe it.
Look for my report Steaming down under on the Steam Car Rally at Heallsville. There were a lot of cars there (for the size of the country) including 1 from the USA and 2 from the UK.
The second meet inland from Sydney had 8 vehicles and they got exercised.
Bill Lloyd clocks up big miles in his Doble, 740 and White. Mary in her Locomobile gets the car towed and exercised all over for displays.
Laurie Kathage in Brisbane should have his Toledo ready for the next rally
So come along to the Third Great Down Under Steam Car Tour
5-9 March 2007
Location the historic River town of
Echuca Victoria on the Murray River
2 hours North of Melbourne
Contact Susan May
psmay@optusnet.com.au
This is advertised in the latest Stanley museum Quarterly.
As I said for the size of the population there are quite a few steam cars being driven
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
The situation in Australia is not as you describe it.
Look for my report Steaming down under on the Steam Car Rally at Heallsville. There were a lot of cars there (for the size of the country) including 1 from the USA and 2 from the UK.
The second meet inland from Sydney had 8 vehicles and they got exercised.
Bill Lloyd clocks up big miles in his Doble, 740 and White. Mary in her Locomobile gets the car towed and exercised all over for displays.
Laurie Kathage in Brisbane should have his Toledo ready for the next rally
So come along to the Third Great Down Under Steam Car Tour
5-9 March 2007
Location the historic River town of
Echuca Victoria on the Murray River
2 hours North of Melbourne
Contact Susan May
psmay@optusnet.com.au
This is advertised in the latest Stanley museum Quarterly.
As I said for the size of the population there are quite a few steam cars being driven
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: Saving the Stanley
Posted by: Ben (IP Logged)
Date: July 16, 2006 12:40AM
Hi all,,,Just talked to Nergaard just now,, and he's geting the old burner under the 735 repaird to go to a meet tomorrow,,,It cracked a pipe on the way BACK from OHIO a week or so ago ,, so that makes at least 2x hes been to OHIO with that car,,,on its own power,, Hopefully he will post over on SACA site,, He's a club officer,, GOOD GOING DAVE,,,,Cheers Ben
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