A few questions that I need sorted out for the 10, 20 and 30 hp rear axles for 1910 through 1914. First is: what years and models did Stanley last use the out board axle casting with the brake levers directly over the axle instead of ahead of the axle as in the later models. Secondly, it is listed in the 1914 parts manual that for the rear axle diameter, the 10 hp used the 2" diameter tube, the 20 hp used the 2 1/4" diameter tube and the 30 hp used the 2 1/2" diameter axle tube. Did Stanley use these diameters for all the years starting when? If not, then on what models did they finally go with these size diameter rear axle tubes. My particular interest is with the 1911 Stanley 30 hp model 85. The model 85 was on the cutting edge and it's components were more like the 1912 model cars. Also, what diameter rear axle tube did the 1909 Stanley model M use?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2006 09:09PM by SSsssteamer.

Help came from a fellow Stanley collector.

Hello, Pat: The following are answers to your questions to the best of my knowledge.

1910-1914 10 hp cars all used 2 inch axle tubes.

All 20 hp cars through 1914 used 2 1/4 inch axle tubes.

1908 through 1912 30 hp cars used 2 1/4 inch axle tubes. This includes Model M.

1913-1914 30 hp cars used 2 1/2 inch axle tubes for the rear axle. There were front axles with the 2 1/2 inch tubes. They probably were for the Mt. Wagons or Express Trucks only, the Touring cars most likely continued the 2 1/4 inch use for the front. This is my opinion only. I have only known of one 2 1/2 inch 1913 original front axle and have not checked a surviving original wood frame Mt. Wagon of 1913-1914.

1912 was the last year for the brake levers directly over the axle on the 10 and 20 hp cars.

The 1912 30 hp Model 87 car and Model 88 Mt. Wagon had the first brake levers to the front.

All the models in 1913-1914 had brake levers to the front.

Using these statements, the 1911 Model 85 used 2 1/4 inch axle tubes. The only picture I have seen of the 1911 Model 85 is in the Kit Foster Stanley book and it appears to have the brake levers directly over the axle. My 1912 Model 74 rear axle has the number 85 stamped on the top of the RH spring/perch pole bracket and inside the outer brake casting(12 inch), so these parts appear to have been intended for use on a Model 85 but ended up on the Model 74.

I hope this is useful to you.

Regards,

Hi Pat,
I checked my 1911 Stanley model 85 yesterday and its axles are 2 1/4" diameter, hope this helps, Jeff.

Thank you Jeff for your help. There are so many made up Stanleys, that to get correct information, one has to look at either unrestored Stanleys in original dress or go to the books for the required information. This time I had good knowledgeable help. I am always afraid of copying someone's mistakes. If I make the restoration correct in the beginning, then it won't have to be redone later. On our model 85 which was started by Carl Amsley in about 1997. I am just now getting around to putting axles under it. I am a little slow but it is coming together very nicely.

In building up our 30 hp rear axle, my wife Merrily and I went to a hillside in Idaho where a 1919 Stanley had been pushed over the hill side. We salvaged most all of the Stanley or what was left of it. We found enough rear axle parts to help us in building up our 1911 Stanley 30 hp rear axle. We used the outside rear axle castings and I turned them up on end from normal their horizontal position. I worked them over a little bit to make them more correct for 1911. The model 735 axle shafts, gears and brake parts were all used over again. Years ago, I bought new inboard axle castings from Carl Amsley and I machined them out on our Bridgeport type milling machine to duplicate the 1911 model 85 rear axle. The 14 inch diameter model 735 brake drums should be enough to stop the 4,500 pound car. I installed modern seals and all new bearings. Attached is a photo of our parts harvest.

[stanleysteamers.com] steamers in the rough

[stanleysteamers.com] 30hp axle

[stanleysteamers.com] 30hp axle front



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2006 08:40AM by JW.

Hi Pat,

Very interesting info, and great pictures! The 1911 catalog says (page 6) that the 10 hp axle tubes were 2" OD x 11 gauge. Did the 20 hp & 30 hp axles also have 11 gauge tube walls?

Peter

Dear Peter, I would assume that all 1910 through 1914 Stanley steamers used the same gauge tubing, about a 0.200" wall thickness, just different tube diameters according to their weight requirements. I am still amazed just how light weight the Stanleys were able to build their steam cars. Even with the added weight of boilers, burners, water tanks and etc. they still kept their net weight well below that of most other comparable cars of that era. My 1909 Stanley model R weighs only 1,500 pounds. I astonish people when I walk over and I can pick up any tire of the R about 6 inches up off of the ground. Try that with a Buick, Cadillac or many of the other expensive cars of that era.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2007 05:01PM by SSsssteamer.

Pat I used 0.158 wall 4140 tube for my Axles on my EX. I know the original was closer to 0.125
I’m not familiar with the bigger axels other then the over all diameter of the tube.

Rolly

Hi Pat,

Thanks, just wondering, & the info might be useful to restorers where original tubes can't be found. FWIW, Old-VW swing axle tubes are about the same diameter and thickness as 10 hp Stanleys of that era. Stanleys really are amazing machines, light weight and they take off like rockets. I was fortunate to ride in 3 splendid examples across the pond a couple years back (thanks again, Jeff), and was surprised at the ride, cornering, and braking, didn't expect those to be so good with century-old tech. Usually cars of that era behave more like, well, Old VWs, if not unloaded dump trucks. The Franklin company (American aircooled-IC cars) stuck with early-Stanley-like full-elliptic springs and an ash frame into the 1930s,claiming these gave a better ride; maybe there was something to that claim after all. The Stanley truss rod axles deserve mention in the weight department. Ray Stanley's classmate Bucky Fuller may have taken note of this ingenious use of dedicated tensile structure elements.

Lifting cars by hand always amazes. In high school, a gang of my brother's ROTC buddies picked up his '63 Beetle and put it on the sidewalk. I was in the car at the time, reading a book & eating lunch.

Peter

Rolly, I checked the 20 and 30 hp 2 1/4" axle tube sizes by two different ways and I came up with about 0.200". First I had a front "spindle to axle tube" casting that was already stepped for the tube and that is about what it took to make a flush joint on the front axle after it had been brazed on. Second was the model 735 rear axle tube that I had cut off at the rear axle housing to get the out board casting. It was the proper 2 1/4" outside diameter and it's tube thickness was about 0.201" in thickness. Both front and rear axles checked out at the same axle tube thickness. I wouldn't doubt that the EX had a thinner wall thickness. I would assume that the 10 hp models 60 through model 606 used the same 0.200" tube thickness but on only a 2" axle tube diameter. Thank you for posting your information on this link for others to use as reference.

Pat
You mentioned you salvaged some existing castings. Turning the old tube off and boring out the others, how well was the brazed joint for filling the gap? Did they use brass-brazing rod.
I left 0.005 clearances and used Harris 56 silver and the black flux, I left a fill hole in the center of the joint and fed the sliver there, it went beautifully and rung right through to the ends with a nice ring around each end of the joint. 60,000 T
I tried posting a photo but it would not take.

Rolly

Rolly, The Stanleys did about the same as you did with machining the clearance for the brass to flow. They also had fill holes so that they could draw the brass out to the end joints. The fill holes and the end joint welds looked good but I would guess about a third of the joint never seen any brass on the 735 castings. It takes a lot of heat, and my rose bud on my torch worked over time to get the heat up so that brass would flow properly. There is absoultley no doubt that there was brass used in the brazing of the 735 parts because of the higher melting point of brass. If you had good flow of the silver solder, it will hold every bit at well for the EX. Different years of manufacture used different techniques. Whos is to say that silver solder wasn't correct of the EX? The heavier model F may be another story of what they might have done for welding their axles together. Stanleys pinned all of their axle parts together correctly before they welded them. I MIG welded them in place with a little wire feed tack before I brazed them. After brazing, the tack welds didn't show. John Woodson is aware that photos are not posting correctly on the phorum. Now that the holidays are over, maybe he can get back to his phorum repair work. Thank you John for the phorum.

Bronze brazing requires a temperature range of 1620 F to 1880F
Silver 56 only requires 1145 F to 1205F Both are rated in the 60,000 tensile range. Silver 56 has a great flow rate. Off course there a large price difference in cost. Four once of silver is $50.00 but it will do all the castings on a rearend with some left over.
I did pin my parts together after sandblasting and fluxing.

Rolly



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2007 09:47PM by Rolly.

Rolly, To get the axle tubes out of the rear outside axle housings, I first cut the tubes off flush. Then I drilled out the retaining pins. After I had brought the castings up to just showing some pink (using my rose bud), I put them into my 30 ton press, and they came right out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2007 04:42AM by SSsssteamer.

That’s one tool I do not have. I was given a nine-foot high Hydraulic press one time and had it outside. I was working two many hours at the time and did not have time to modify it and cut it down to fit my shop. I gave it away. When I built the rearend I had to press the gears on the axels, it took some doing with jacks and pipe up against the steel beam under the house, but I got it done. I would like to have a good press that would fit in seven feet. Some day.

Rolly