Hi all,
Bob and I have been experimenting with a propane pilot for his 740 roadster. It has a Baker burner and boiler but we could not get the Baker pilot to burn consistently. It also was nearly impossible to remove without dropping the burner due to obstructions (perch poles and the like). He had a propane pilot that he had previously fitted to the car so we thought we would give it a try.It burns really well at 1.5 pounds of pressure on a small (camp stove size) disposable propane tank. The tank and regulator are mounted on the boiler side of the firewall using preexisting holes in the firewall. We fired it up today and it burns quite well for some time but eventually the tank starts to ice up and pressure drops leaving a pretty weak flame, does anyone have much experience with this kind of set-up? We also tried to set up a remote sparker, like the ones on BBQs, to light it but its function is kind of irregular, we have a 3 foot long high tension (coil) wire leading from the button at the firewall to the sparker in the pilot, might just be too much resistance? Thanks, Eric

Never carry your propane bottle inside your Stanley touring like Mr. Nutting did at Knotts Berry Farm in California. He didn't live to tell us about it. That is why the HCCA prohibits propane fueled cars on their car tours nowadays.

Sounds lethal - propane can next to the burner - no thanks.

I am reluctant to make any comments as I think propane should be avoided as too dangerous to have around your car.

The sparker idea is used by many people but not to light the pilot but to discourage it from going out. There is no reason why your long HT lead shouldn't work. A friend of mine had an Oldsmobile Limited of 1912 - it had acetylene gas headlights with electric ignition - these he said were very rare as they always blew up so be warned! A continuously running sparker with a normal gasolene pilot is a good combination.

Mike

Hi Eric & All,

I am new to this forum, but I hope that you find my comments useful.

I have been driving my 735 with a pilot converted to propane for over 1000 miles in the UK. I have a certain amount of experience with propane as a fuel for steam plants; my Fathers 18’ Stern wheel paddle steamer is propane fired and is very successful; but I have to say that we took much advice before progressing with the project.

I have also converted my rather aged Mercedes to propane 8 years ago and have recently passed the 100,000 miles mark, all propane powered. The cylinder is mounted in the trunk and is vented in the correct manner.

There were a number of recommendations made to us when using propane for steam boat use, and much of it applies for steam cars:

The gas is heavier than air and will ‘pool’ if it is allowed to leak. It is so dense that it can resist a modest draught and can give you a nasty surprise later. In a car environment the cylinder and fittings must be positioned in such a way that if a leak should occur, it cannot ‘pool’ in the car. The cylinder must be mounted as far from any potential sources of ignition as is reasonably practical.

The gas cylinder, valves, fittings and pipework MUST be properly approved components for propane use. There simply is no excuse for shortcuts and in my experience the parts are usually reasonably priced anyway.

All the pipework and fittings in the vicinity of any hot zones must be constructed entirely of metal with the minimum number of joints.

The gas pressure must be controlled using an approved pressure regulator, and the cylinder should also be fitted with a pipe burst valve. This all metal device closes off the gas flow completely if the flow rate rises too high (in the event of a major leak or pipe burst).

Under NO circumstances operate a gas powered device in an enclosed space.

This is my operating procedure, and it seems to work well:

Check that the isolator valve (on the gas line) is closed
Open the main gas valve on the cylinder
Turn on the continuous sparker
Open the isolator gas valve

At that point the pilot ignites and remains on for the whole journey in the normal way.

When shutting down, I turn off the gas at the main valve at the cylinder and let the pressure in the pipe drop until the pilot extinguishes, then I close the isolator and turn off the sparker.

When operated in this manner with all the usual precautions, I consider the use of propane on a steam car possibly less dangerous than in a caravan, which is one big enclosed space. It must be remembered that propane is a popular and successful fuel for a vast range of applications and is just as safe as any other combustible fluid if managed with the proper respect.

Eric - to comment on your original query - Electrical resistance affects the current not the voltage (I’m going to get shot down for that one). As the spark energy in these little sparkers is a product of high voltage / very low current, the resistance of the HT cable in your case will have little effect. In fact most spark plug caps have a small graphite resistor in them which acts as a radio suppressor, the resistance having virtually no effect on the spark energy. It’s more likely that the spark gap is a bit too big, or the HT cable is imperfect somewhere. The spark gap on mine is 1/8” inch and it lights on the first spark every time.

Also, are you sure that you’re running propane? The icing up and reduced performance is usually associated with butane or butane / propane mix. Propane cylinders will ice up but usually only if you’re extracting the gas faster than the cylinder size was designed for.

I’m shocked to hear of Mr Nutting, it is awful to hear of anyone who has met their fate in such an unpleasant manner. Is there anything that we can learn from this?

One final point: the cylinders which are freely available for domestic propane use (the refillable type) are all certified pressure vessels, and were designed as such – the design being subject to rigorous testing before the design was approved. The gasoline tanks in our cars and indeed the pressurised pilot fuel tanks in our steam cars were most likely not subject to such rigorous scrutiny and are in some cases 100 years old or more, but still contain the same fuel energy…

I'm sorry to give such a long post, but hopefully it will be useful.

Steam all the way,

Mark Drake

Mr. Wayne Nutting's propane fire in his Stanley...Jim Crank writes:
"Bill Marsh and I were there the weekend before, and I
know what happened. The accident was directly the result of Wayne's
stubbornness and probably his ignorance of how to use propane tanks.

Described as a chain of events.

Wayne had a huge propane tank in the back of his garage property to
fire his heat treating furnace.

His Stanley used kerosene for the main burner; but he had a long
small diameter propane tank in the floor of the tonneau for the pilot
light. The tank was up against the back of the front seat and thus
right over the cylinders.

Wayne filled this tank from his big one; but not the right way, I saw
this happen, I watched as he did this. He inverted the propane tank
and filled it until a solid stream of liquid propane came out of the
vent on the pilot tank. THIS is his big mistake. That vent valve has
a tube inside the tank that goes down and provides about a 20% gas
volume at the top of the tank when it is used in the proper way with
the valves on top. It starts spitting liquid propane when the level
comes up to the bottom of this tube. Then you are supposed to stop
filling. The void is to take care of liquid propane expanding in hot
weather.

We went out in the Stanley and I remarked to Wayne that I smelled
propane in the rear seat of the car, a lot of it. I opened one rear
door to try to let the cloud of propane out of the car after we got
back.
Wayne got mad and told me that he damn well knew how to use propane
and not to mention it again.
When we were about to leave, I told him: "Wayne, that pilot tank is
venting raw propane out the safety valve because you overfilled it
and this was very dangerous. Fran Duveneck and I also use propane for
our pilots; but we don't deliberately overfill the tank like you
do." He didn't want to hear this for sure and got quite mad that I
brought this up again. I told him: "Wayne, this is going to cause an
accident, so think about that." Then we left.

At Knott's Berry Farm, it was a very hot day and the parade was just
creeping along, so there was not even a breeze to dissipate the
propane from the tonneau. Not only a hot day; but remember the tank
was right over the hot Stanley cylinders.
The tank vented again and filled the tonneau with propane. Mrs. Bill
Schutz and her two children were in the back seat. She lit a
cigarette and the propane in the tonneau blew up. The Nuttings were
killed from their burns, Mrs. Schutz was very badly burned and the
kids less so. I was told that she could not be seen in public until a
lot of skin grafts and other reconstructive surgery was done.
Bill Schutz sued the Nutting estate for a lot of money and that is
how he got into the vintage car business, from the payment by the
insurance company.

When we got home, both Fran and I dumped our propane pilot tanks and
went back to using white gas.

On the several Steam Car Tours in Idaho and Colorado, only the hand
torch to warm up the pilot light was permitted. Any car using propane
for main or pilot fuel was denied entry to the tours, as you should
remember.

There was also a propane explosion on one of the London to Brighton
runs. The car was a 1904 White, which has the gas tank under the
floor right next to the steam generator and burner.
The idiot replaced it with a propane tank and, of all things
possible, used a rubber hose to run the main burner at full tank
pressure, about 250 psi. The hose froze up and broke and the car was
enveloped in a ball of flame. The driver and passenger were not
seriously burned.
A friend of mine was only two cars down line when this happened. He
said that people ran in panic and several fell down and got badly
skinned up.
I was asked to and provided a report to the Veteran Car Club on this
by a friend of mine who was then the dating chairman. Why this
happened, propane tank next to the steam generator and rubber hose. I
recommended that the owner be banned from any club event until he put
the White back as it was made. This happened.

As far as I am concerned, any steam car that uses propane for either
the pilot light or the main burner, should not be allowed on any tour
or even in the parking lot. Hand torches are OK, not much else you
can use.
Anyone who wants to use propane in any steam car is an idiot. There
is no where the BTUs per gallon compared to gasoline of kerosene and
it is just plain dangerous to use.
If they can't figure out how to burn liquid fuel, then take up
another hobby.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2008 04:54AM by SSsssteamer.

The Nutting car, #17292, is listed on eBay:

[cgi.ebay.com]

It is interesting that the car survived the fire. I have found one AP photo from an old newsclipping in our archives which shows the car fire being brought under control somewhat. I understand that there is another image taken earlier that shows the car completely engulfed in flames.

According to Jim Crank, after the Nutting fire was put out and the people were sent off to the hospital, the Nutting Stanley touring was driven away under it's own power. Apparently once the accumulated propane had burned up, the fire was just about out on it's own. My guess is that the upholstery and the occupant's clothing had soaked up the propane. When the propane fuel was gone, so was the fire.

The Nutting Stanley reached a bid 0f $30.6 K. It was a no sale as the reserve was not met.