I am wondering if anyone with a steam seperator captures and re-uses their steam oil.

If so do you let the captured steam oil sit and seperate out the water, if their is any water mixed in.

Caleb Ramsby

Not quite what your looking for, I never did in my 1920 Stanley as I switched to the Mobil 1 synthetic gear oil, but in my thirty five foot boat before I know about synthetic oil, I used Steam cylinder oil TK1000. I used it for everything, oiling the mains, the eccentrics, cross head guides, all bearings and in the steam line to the engine for cylinder and valve lubrication. The oil for the engine would collect along with cylinder and valve blow-by in the engine pain where on occasion I would pump it to a holding tank. This mess of water and oil mixture, more like a past I would transfer to clear plastic milk jugs and let them sit. The water would collect on the bottom at which time I would poke a hole in the bottom of the plastic jug and let the water drain out. Then transfer the oil to another container. I only used this in the steam line to the cylinder and valve lubrication as it would get remixed with steam and water anyway. Only clean unused oil went to engine bearings.

[ourworld-top.cs.com]

Hi Rolly,

Thanks for the reply. It sounds like there are not any big issues with steam oil re-use then. As long as it is properly seperated.

I can't remember, do you use a seperator in your car? If so, what does the oil look like when you drain it?

Not to get too far off subject, but how is your Derr boiler holding up, any issues with it?

Caleb Ramsby

Caleb
I sold the car a few years ago. As far as I know it is running just fine. The car used Mobil 1 synthetic gear oil. I did not try to seperaite it as it does it by it self when it gets to the water tank. I never saw any oil in the boiler blow down.
There is no oil to drain in a Stanley except in the engine crank end, With Mobil 1 synthetic gear oil its clean oil. All blow by is at the bottom as clear water. I added a drain petcock on my friends car to drain this water. With TK 1000 it formes a gooie past of water and oil mixture but the engine remains clean and free of any rust. I changed it with clean oil before putting it up for the winter.

Rolly

Rolly,

Thanks yet again.

I was thinking about using an oil seperator with a tank bellow to store the seperated oil from the exhaust steam so it could be put back into the steam oil tank and used again. It sounds like if the seperator is left off then one just has to look at the top of the water for the oil!

Thanks again.

Caleb Ramsby

Caleb
There have been a lot of different designs of oil separators, flat plate of the blast type, centrifugal, grids of plates, types of screen filters. They all work to some extent with the old type steam cylinder oil. You can actually collect some pretty clean oil from some of them. None of them have been 100 percent effective. I believe this has to do with the time and the additives in the steam oil. Steam cylinder oil seams to mix well with water and act like salad dressing all mixed together.
The new synthetic oils most likely will work lot fasters if used with these types of separators, as the oil does not mix with the condensed water, I don’t think there has been much testing or use of these types of oil in steam systems. All I know of is a few of us that have tried it in steam cars.
The object has always been to try to keep the oil from getting back to the boiler, not to reuse it over again.

Rolly

Hi Caleb,

One idea I was working on about a year or two ago, but dropped because the design work drove me bonkers, was to let the cylinder oil (Mobil SHC634?) build up on the water surface in water tank, and recover it with a skimmer. I went through many concepts with different types of skimmers. There are belt, disk, even tube-belt types. Run an oleophilic polymer element through an oil layer to pick up the oil, then scrape oil off of element into oil recovery tank. HP use is negligible, and this is practical workhorse tech. For steam automobile use, there were all sorts of problems with every single idea I looked at, and as I recall, freezeproofing/thawing the tank with a partly-submerged/freeze-locked skimmer mechanism in it was the last straw. Maybe somebody else could get this idea to work. Check McMaster.com for good info on different types of oil skimmers.

Peter

Rolly and Peter,

Thanks again for all of the information.

Compiling what both of you have said I think that I have an idea that may be worth trying out.

Using the knowledge that the oil seperates rapidly in the tank and thinking of tyring to skim the oil off of the top, I came up with the idea of making a float seperator tank for the oil/water.

The system would compose of a floating skimmer in the main water tank with a side port inlet and a rubber suction hose. There would be a small pump that would take the liquid off of the top of the water tank. This would draw both water and oil.

In the smaller seperator tank which would be tall and narrow, there would be a float which sinks in the oil and floats in the water. At the top of the tank there would be a drain hose which would go to the oil tank, at the bottem would be a float actuated valve which would allow the water to escape back to the water tank. The water level in the seperator would be above the water level in the main tank.

The seperator tank would maintain a water level in it via the float actuated valve and any oil which was pumped in would float to the top, as it acumilated it would rise until it went out of the over flow tube into the oil tank. Any excess water pumped to the seperator tank would run back via the valve into the water tank.

Do any of you see a hole in my idea that I didn't notice?

Thanks again.

Caleb Ramsby

Hi Caleb,

Sounds workable to me. A matter of working out the pump drive, plumbing, and something to defrost the thing after a freeze. I'd use angled walls in the separator tank for freeze purposes, like an ice cube tray. At least a 10% draft. I'd also empty water from pump & lines somehow for standby. One thing that has screwed up an awful lot of my ideas is hills. Tilting the car/powerplant up to 45° messes with liquid levels and anything that depends on them or measures them.

How about a plunger pump operated by parking brake lever? You set brake at end of run, with everything hot & liquid. Not much oil in tank after one run. Brake lever moves pump, which moves a bunch of oil/water into separator tank when parking. Suction end of pump hose is mounted on a float which keeps it just below the tank liquid surface where the oil is. Float doubles as water tank gauge sender. At end of brake lever pull and suction stroke, plunger releases from drive cable, and spring pushes the plunger, which pushes oil into separator tank. Then a vacuum breaker valve is mechanically opened by linkage on pump plunger, to drain the hose into main tank, so's it can freeze without plugging up or breaking pump or hose. When brake lever is released, linkage grabs/resets separator pump plunger for the next cycle. Pump has to be self-priming.

I kinda like this. Hmm.

BTW, Delling had a simpler deal. Condensate flowed first into a separator tank with bottom plumbed to bottom of main water tank and top overflowing into tramp oil tank. The oil rides a little higher than the water and overflows as it reaches a certain concentration. No float valve at oil/water interface needed. I like this better, but it has tilt and freeze issues and (long story) won't work with my condenser-outlet overload-steam percolator.

Another thing to consider with any equipment in a frozen steam car tank is that while defrosting on the road, there's a big block of ice slamming around with the sloshing water. Yikes. Might want to shield that float ...

Peter



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2008 12:10AM by Peter Brow.

Peter,

I remembered the hill factor, having the water level set in the middle and using a tall narrow tank that shouldn't be an issue.

What I did forget was that when you add heat to water you get steam and when you take heat away from water you get ICE.

It is so easy to forget that last bit;}

Love your float/skimmer water level indicator idea!

Also love your brake lever actuated water/oil pump!

Thinking about using the emergency brake as a pump made me think about using it as a boiler feed water, fuel pump(for pressure bunsen type burner systems). You could have the emergency brake/tank water/oil pump actuated by one rod with a notch in it which locks in place with a button to release it. Then have the brake lever pivoted on a bar with round ends, having a slot cut in it which the brake lever would go through and be pivoted to the pivot by a pair of bushings. This would let the pump handle rock from side to side, on one side you could have the feed water and fuel pump combination and of the other the brake lever and water tank scavanging pump. This may be a bit too complex and cumbersom/confusing to use though. I don't know, it's an idea at least.

I think I would forgo the spring return for the pump and just have it direct acting, but that is really a matter of preferance, both ways would work.

That Delling system sounds much simpler, brilliant too, since there would be a higher concentration of oil in the initial seperation tank the column would need to be taller than the water level in the water tank to balance out.

The freezing issue is one bugger of a problem. The only "solution" that I have come up with there, is to never shut down the boiler. Keep her up at all times, except for repairs and maintance and in all my designs the tanks and pipes are enclosed in a sealed under frame. With winter heat loss from the boiler the auxiliary engine making the fire and keeping the water level up would keep things circulating and hot even when standing in sub zero weather, there would need to be vents for the summer to keep hot foot syndrome at bay.

Just came up with the most absurd idea that I could on how to pump the water/oil out of the tank into the seperator. Use a free floating plunger pump in line with the frame of the vehicle. Have some springs which would compress at the end of it's strokes. With the inertial forces of starting and stoping the vehicle the pump rod would go back and forth and if heavy enough would pump the water/oil mix easily.LOL Crazy idea, though you all might get a kick out of it.

Caleb Ramsby

Hi Caleb,

Your "inertia pump" is better than my ideas above. Not a crazy idea at all. I'd use a pendulum with a good-sized weight on it, with a link connecting it to the small pump plunger, and fore/aft stop bumpers (Sorbothane?) for the pendulum weight.

For freezeproofing, I ended up with 8 valves to use residual boiler pressure to blow water from the boiler, pump, and _all_ the pipes and hoses, to the water tank, after shutdown and pressure drop. The automatic control is simpler than the 8 valves suggest. If you restart the car before pressure drops to just a bit more than necessary to "freezeproof" the system, then the freezeproof cycle is skipped. System also incorporates automatic turn-key boiler refill/fireup and of course automatic defrost. It is a tricky design job, and of course different for different steam systems.

I did some semi-scientific oil/water tests yesterday, and found that the dirt-cheap Chalet 40W ND petro-base motor oil (the modern equivalent of what Doble used back in the day) separates from tap water just as well as the rather pricey Mobil SHC634. A bit faster actually. Clear oil on top of clear water. No mayo. Imagine that, oil and water not mixing. The oil companies sure did a job on my head with that detergent stuff. LOL

Peter

Peter,

Humm, I guese it's not all that nuts anyway. Your pendulum addition is great, it would increase the capacity for pressure pumping.

Now that I am actually considering this pendulum pump idea as more literal, if instead of using springs or rubber stops, why not just make the linkage to the pump about 1/5 of the way down the pendulum arm, having the weight more of a flat disk or bar. Place the pump and pendulum so that the pendulum could swing horizontal without hitting the pump and the stroke of the pump/linkage such that even when horizontal either front of back the plunger wouldn't hit the end of the pump housing. If there was enough clearence even making it so the pendulum could go above it's pivot point, having it suspended from one side only and the pump driven from the other side of the of the pendulum so that there would be no interferance issues. Thusly there would be no need for stops, because it wouldn't matter where it swung.

Great brainstorming session, intruiging results as always!

Caleb Ramsby

Thinking a bit more about the pendulum pump idea, one could have the float made with two chambers or two floats on one arm. Then have two rubber lines going from the float(s) to two seperate pendulum plunger pumps. One pump given energy from acceleration and deceleration, the other given energy from the centrifugal forces of turning.

From my driving style, I know that things go flying more when I turn than, slow down or speed up. Having both would give one a much greater pumping capacity and also a backup pump incase one of them failed or got vapor locked.

Caleb Ramsby

A question about the non-detergent and detergent oils.

Why does the detergent cause an emmulsion of the water and oil?

Is it simular to the effect of the animal fat derived steam oils of old?

If so, is that why the Mobil 1 synthetic gear oil and ND motor oils don't produce the mayonase? They just don't have those water loving compounds?

Just curious.

Caleb Ramsby

Hi Caleb,

The short answer is that each detergent molecule has a water-loving end and an oil-loving end. Each end locks onto the object of its affections, and joins together water & oil molecules in unholy matrimony, resulting in a mayonnaise that fails most culinary standards. The chemical bonds can be broken with heat. Some years ago I boiled detergent oil/water mayo at about 400F to get clear oil. Foams up like crazy in the process.

Yep, no detergent, no mayo. Without detergent to bring them together, oil and water can't stand each other and separate almost instantly.

Neat ideas for the inertia pump, but I'd simplify. The extra sideways pump would be nice for RatFink, but not for driving Miss Daisy. Everybody accelerates and decelerates, though. Remember you don't have to pump very much -- a squirt now and then -- and the pressure is zilch. One single-acting plunger pump with O-ring seal should do. Stop bumpers are cheap and easy and there isn't much room under the hood. Yes, use some leverage to overcome plunger stiction, and spare every expense on the pendulum weight. Stick bent strap iron in a small tin can and pour in some concrete. Doble would barf.

Peter



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2008 01:54AM by Peter Brow.

Hi Caleb,

A pendulum oil skimmer pump would best be sized to pump excess oil/water. Attach a tube or hose to bottom of the tall/thin separator tank. This runs up to nearly the top of the tank, but just below it, then back down to the water tank (below separator tank) via an anti-siphon vent tube. Vent tube extends well above top of separator tank. When full, the oil is trapped in top of separator tank, and any excess water from the skimmer pump (entering at middle of separator tank) goes down, then up and over back to the main water tank. Same principle as the Delling separator tank and kitchen gravy separators. No oil/water interface float valve needed. Connect lube pump oil suction hose somewhat below top of separator tank, yet above water level, and keep filled with oil to well above that level, and no float needed in separator tank either (just one float for separator pump suction, in main water tank). As a friend from Philadelphia used to say, "waller!".

The inertia pump would not only work when accelerating and decelerating, but also up and down hills, and over bumps when the car pitches a little. Kind of like a self-winding mechanical watch.

Another way to operate the oil skimmer pump is with a link to the brake pedal. That might be the simplest. Another link, to parking brake, could open drain valve(s) to drain pump cylinder & hose back to tank to automatically prevent water freezing in them while parked. Maybe just lift the skimmer pump check valves for that.

Possible problem: some oil would have to be maintained in the main water tank. If skimmer pump inlet were floated 1/4" below water tank surface, for example, then you'd have to maintain a 1/4" deep layer of oil atop the water -- and the skimmer pump would not be able to remove it. If water tank level dropped really low, then the feedwater pump might push a slug of oil into the boiler.

Peter

BTW, after about 48 hrs, the Mobil SHC634 in my test jar is all at the top of the (pretty clear) water, but the oil looks a little milky. There is some water in that oil. This would desuperheat the steam slightly if pumped into a superheated steam line. The Chalet 40W in the other test jar is clear oil atop clear water.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the oil explenation. Your results are very curious. It sounds like the 40W ND oil is the one to go with, cheaper, more availiable and seperates thoroughly. Great Stuff!

This pendulum pump idea is really getting interesting. For my vehicle design the water tank is in the underframe, and the pendulum pumps would be narrow, tall and long. Thusly it would be easy to find room in front of the tank for the left-right pendulum pump and beside the tank for the stop-go pendulum pump. It all depends on the overall design and where things would fit well.

The siphon sounds like it should work rather well, yet another great option!

Yeah, the brake pedel would work rather well too, it might be a bit simpler than the pendulum, not as neat to imagine when driving though.LOL

Another question that may interest many of the lurkers(you know who you are, I don't)LOL. What oiling rates for the engine do you find the most reasonable?

I have heard of and read of oiling rates all the way from one quart per 100 miles to one quart per 1,000 miles. I have done test with oil and hot metal(steamed), it doesn't seem to matter how much oil I poured on the metal, if it was vertical it ran down very quickly and formed a very thin layer on the surface, thusly I don't think that in the real world with a well seperating oil the oiling rate shouldn't effect the condensors heat trasnfer rate. However, I could be absolutly wrong, I don't know how time would come into the equation or different oils or condensor tube orientataions.

Note, the oiling rates I am looking for are for a large slide valve engine.

Caleb Ramsby

Hi Caleb,

New idea. Why not add skimmer pump to the main pump box, which is right on top of the water tank, in my system (and Stanleys) anyway. Perfect place for feedwater and skimmer pumps, and the drive is already there. The pump can be tiny (like 1/8" bore x 1" stroke), should take almost no power, and its plunger would move with the water, fuel, and lubricator pump plungers. Make it pump just a bit more than the lubricator pump. If driven by the engine, the skimmer pump would always pump exactly enough oil out of the main water tank, just a bit more than the lubricator pump puts into the tank by way of the engine and condenser. No problems with estimating how many miles/how much oil per brake pedal push, brake lever pull, or pendulum swing.

This is one of those "I can't believe it took me this long to arrive at such an obvious solution" things.

However, I am still not sure about the skimmer-pump system, at least for my project.

Kent: "The cylinder oil consumption ranges from 0.1 pint to 4 pints per million sq. ft. of surface swept over by the piston (perimeter of piston x distance travelled), with an average of 0.8 pints per million sq. ft..". Pp. 7-47 to 7-48, 1936 edition. There is more interesting stuff in that section, including a note that oil does vaporize in 700-750F steam lines, and condenses on (exhaust-cooled) swept surfaces in the engine.

Stanley oil rates (and oils) vary, but one 20 HP Stanley factory recommendation (Stanley Dealer Bulletin #134, 3/14/1921) which I have seen is 300 miles per gallon. That's one quart per 75 miles. Slide valves need more oil than piston or poppet valves.

What sort of oil to use in steam automobile engines is controversial; even the manufacturers changed their recommendations from year to year, and I do not presume to recommend oils for either new or antique steam cars. Caveat emptor.

I personally plan to try the 40W non-synthetic ND motor oil in my new/hobby/experimental steam car, and will note that this is what Doble originally used -- though later Doble owners disagree with him on this, some stating that this oil was inadequate for the conditions and ruined engines.

One tip I got is that if a "classic" steam car engine is under-oiled, it will "groan". Then, increase oil pump delivery until the groans stop. Kent warns that too much excess oil will carbonize with highly superheated steam. Some lube pumps are adjustable; I plan to build and test a design very similar to the Stanley Model 735 adjustable-stroke lubricator, illustrated in the 1918 booklet "A Complete Description of the Stanley Steam Car". This booklet is available in reprint.

40W ND motor oil is available at some auto parts chain stores and mom & pop groceries. Shop around. Coastal and Chalet are 2 brands which I have seen; there may be others. Many years ago I spotted an obscure brand of ND motor oil, in groovy retro containers, that was marketed to owners of antique/classic gas cars with original engines and enough mileage/crud that you'd blow the engine with detergent oil. Look for the big ol "ND" on the label, though with some brands you have to look at the fine print on the back to see if it's non-detergent or not. If it doesn't say, it's probably detergent oil.

Shell Oil also makes the very model of a modern mineral motor oil, non-detergent, in various grades including 40W, for aeronautical engine break-in. This stuff is called "AeroShell ND" and can be sourced at small-airport pilot shops (if you can get past security back in the USSA), or a friendly Shell station or distributor can order it for you.

Peter



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2008 09:57AM by Peter Brow.

Peter,

Adding the skimmer pump to the pump box sure is a no brainer. Sometimes it is so easy to get thinking out of the box that one misses what is right under your nose, can't believe that I hadn't thought of that!

Thanks for the Kent oiling information reminder, after you mentioned it I remmebered reading it and checked out Mark's not much in my edition. If one used 1 pint per 1,000,000 swept sq.ft. that would be 1,400 miles per quart for a 4" bore by 5" stroke two cylinder engine at 800 revs per mile.

Thanks for the additional ND oil information.

Caleb Ramsby

Doing a bit more research and thinking it looks like the best bet is to use an oil seperator like Nergaards.

[www.steamautomobile.com]

Just have the drain(via valve) from the seperator go to a seperate tank with a drain in the bottem of it, sort of tapered at the bottem. This would be drained into a container after letting the water out of the bottem of it. This way I think that one could get a 90% recovery of the cylinder oil. Then just don't worry too much about the oil on top of the water, just use an overflow tube to clean it up, that could even be put into a container and seperated with time and recaptured. I don't know if there would be enough getting into the water tank to worry about though.

Caleb Ramsby