A new website has been created to highlight Bob Jorgensen's workshop, steam bicycles, steam auto, and steam model engines.

YouTube videos are also included in the links, and show Bob riding his Roper replica steam bicycle, and many of Bob's steam engines running.

Many original photos taken by Bob Jorgensen himself.

[jorgensensteam.com]

A photo of Bob Jorgensen riding his steam powered Roper replica bicycle.

Hi,,How much does the bike weigh,,The original was around 100#,,and was full of tricks,,like a pull pin to drop the grate and dump the fire,,OR take the wheel out without moving the mainbearing position,,and variable pumpstroke,,,Cheers Ben

The 2nd Roper replica must weigh in excess of 100 lbs., since it is not something I can easily pick up.
The firebox does have a slide-out grate, to drop the fire.
It looks like the rear wheel can be dropped straight down after removing four bolts on either side. I remember Bob had a flat tire at one of the shows, and I thought it would take him all day to change, but he actually did it in a few minutes.
It looks like the rear shaft is pressed into the rear hub, with the bearings being installed in the outboard removable flanges.
The flanges I assume would drop with the wheel.
The pump stroke appears to be fixed. I assume the faster the bike runs, the more water is pumped into the boiler.
Do you have any details on the variable pump stroke?
Was it similar to a sliding link arrangement?

Probably a simpler way to handle the water pump is to install a bypass valve to allow full stroke of the pump, but not necessarily full output into the boiler.

Hi Bob,,,As i recall the eccentric on the rear wheel could be turned to change stroke,,eccentric [to bolt that secures it],,and a locating pin,,flip it over for other setting,,,,,,2"x4" bore ,stroke,,5/8 piston valve,,no rings on it,,and it was purple,,hoho,,,,The boiler had a water leg,,All,,,ALL the spokes had a wrap ov wire around the crossings,,and were solderd,,for stifness,,a common practice in racing of the day,,wall thickness I thought to be ,062",,,,yikkes,,,Bike was a wonder of endless details,,Roper is the genius of light weight steam,,,to be followed by Whitney,,and Stanley,,,and Maxim belongs in there somewhere too,,Ben

Blacksmithing temper color to temp:

Deg, color

430, very pale yellow
440, light yellow
450, plae straw-yellow
460, straw yellow
470, deep straw yellow
480, dark yellow
490, yellow-brown
500, brown-yellow
510, spotted red-brown
520, brown-purple
530, light purple
540, full purple
550, dark purple
560, full purple
570, dark blue
580-590, pale blue
610, light blue
630, green-blue
650, light gray, color goes to steel/metal color

Here is a link to anvilfire which has a color chart and numbers.

[www.anvilfire.com]

It looks like Ropers original had the flue gases bypassing some of the boiler and jumping out to heat the cylinder.

I don't see an oiler on the original, might be missing something.

Using the frame bars as as crosshead stay and the crosshead as a brace between frame rods!

6/10 cutoff?! looks to be FIXED! I have heard boiler pressure stated at between 150 and 320!

I have figured that he would require around 150 on the piston to make 40 mph, rough calculations with some unknowns, but close I think.

Caleb Ramsby

Hi,,,There was virtually NO cutoff / expansion,,timing very close to line on line !!! The boiler shell was thin,,guesses at ,062" ,,,Those hi pressures were invented by a overly anxious newspaper reporter to get the article in print before press roll time,,,[Hey Charlie,,what pressure these things use,,,,Ch,,,dunno,,locos' are 2-300 I think],,so it goes,,Next item,,,From personal experience those single tube bike tyres have much less rolling resistance,,,EVERYONE that rode my old Columbia bike[1912 model] commented about its easy pedaling,,,Yes there was a rectangular hole below the cylender ,,THROUGH the water leg,,,and around the cyl up to the smokebox,,,to keep it warm,,the valve spool had no rings,,but did have water gooves,,clearence i think,,around ,005-6 ,,,If boiler pressure as hi,,,the con rod would have bent,,for sure,,AND there was the cuteist brace,,3/16d,,from the crosshead bars over to the bike frame,,little bieutiful details,,I doubt there was any oiling to cylender,,no superheat,,,BUT ALSO,,no condensing in the cylender,,SIDE NOTE,,,At the time he built this,,he was also experimenting with a napther burner,,not unlike the Surpollett,,on a tandem quadricycle,,,and wood fire for the Log Hauler,,described by Fred Hartung,,part of T,W,Gleason's crew,,from Sudbury St Boston,,early spring 1896,,trivia,,hoho,,,Ben ///ps,,is there a button here somewhere to make the print/letters larger ???,,,cb

Dear Ben, On the lower right side of my screen there is a 100% figure. While typing up new text, I will click on that number and it will first click to 125%, then another click will take it to 150%. With larger text, it will make it easier to type up new text and also for you to catch your errors because now you can see them in larger print. It doesn't work so well on the previous threads because then you have to scroll to the left and to the right to be able to read all of the text. Thank you for all of the help that you have given us. Take good care of your self.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2009 01:41AM by SSsssteamer.

One significant factor when figuring engine power is the card factor, for engines with virtually no cutoff, such as direct acting pumping engines, this is around .95, shorter cutoff, higher speed and higher recompression = smaller card factors.

With the lower rolling resistance, mabey 5.5 sq ft frontal area, cd of 1 etc.

Looks to be around 90 lbs on the piston to maintain 40 mph, around 2.5 hp at that clip.

280 some lbs force from piston on rods ect. around 23 lbs total resistance to movement ie. tractive effort required.

From some more calculations(!?) about 75 lbs steam hour to maintain 40 mph, with 70% boiler effeciency at 100 psi boiler pressure(10 psi drop to engine, full throttle), 1,657 btu lb, around 3,107 btu mile, good charcoal, 13,500 btu lb, .23 lbs mile.

This could easily double if the fuel was not burnt well, the boiler was less effecient OR the piston valve leaked badly! There would almost have to be some leakage past the piston valve while running slow and hard, faster = better I think, that sounds like a tight valve though!

I seem to recall 7 lbs charcoal(?) in 17 miles, through hills, mabey 2 left on grate around .3 lbs per mile?

Log hauler, that was the tracked vehicle(!?), hummm, one with the stearman sitting right in front of the chimney(cotton+wax+ears), this was heavy, loco on tracks, doesn't sound like Roper.

Caleb Ramsby

Hi,,Hi,,,300 # on the conrod would oh my,,I dont think the rod would stand that,,,rod VERY thin,,,Full admission,,for easy starting and slow control,,Not ideal,,I wonder if he had tried more settings,,The log tractor was a 3 wheel rig,,NOT 4 OR TRACK,, It did not have the spuds in the wheels,,on the wood shop floor,,,Thats why fred mis read the purpose , as a road engine,,not thhe hauler it was,,Lombard was living in Dorchester [ dar'chest ah' ] I do not know if it got finnished when Roper died,,Roper built all sorts,,including a steam pumper,,self propelld,,He shared the E Boston shop w/G,Whitney,,,Ben //Pat thhanks for the tip,,CB

I have had several questions about Bob's Roper replica, but Bob is no longer with us, and I have very limited experience with the replica, so I have not been able to answer specific questions. I will have to take the Roper-r out and run some tests to try and figure out water and charcoal consumption, oil usage, horsepower, top speed, etc.
It is a bit disconcerting sitting on top of that boiler while you are riding.
The insulation and wood lagging on the firebox do a great job, and there are no heat problems as far as the rider is concerned.
You can open the blowdown valve and find out real quick just how much power that is stored in that little boiler when it is at full temperature.
I am also in the process of verifying the valve timing to determine admission, cutoff and compression points. I believe Bob generally had a small amount of outside lap, and no inside lap. This would give a long admission period.

Geoff Hudspith states on one of his webpages that he intentionally mounted his boiler forward so he could monitor water level, burner, etc.
I can relate to this idea.
Bob installed a water tank under the aluminum cowling at the top of the bike.
I am not sure of the capacity of this tank.
The bike needs an oil tank under the cowl also. I am considering adding a small oil-injection pump in lieu of the oiler now on the bike.
The current oiler does not have much capacity, and there is no way to visually check the oil level.
I may add a small mirror on the side of the site glass, and probably a stronger glass guards. Also, some operable handles top and bottom of the site glass would be nice for a quick turning off of the steam if the glass broke.
Bob created the bike for fun, but Hudspith appears to use his bike for extended cross country type runs. The Roper replica needs a bit of work to make it a cross country bike.

When Bob was building the first Roper replica, I took him a great set of Schwinn wheels, from one of the Schwinn industrial bikes. The tires were wide, and the spokes every heavy. Exactly what the Roper needs. Bob did not like the look of the Schwinns, and wanted to be as close to the old photos of the Roper as possible. With all the added weight of the boiler and frame additions, the bike really moves into the motorcycle class of vehicle, and needs a motorcycle grade frame, wheels, brakes, etc. The bicycle Bob used on his first Roper was a bicycle retrieved from the trash heap in front of a neighbor's front yard. A good salvage effort, but too light of a bicycle for a Roper.
Although Roper was certainly ahead of his time, some of his work has a decided Rube-Goldberg aspect to it. Bob speculated for years about the contraption at the center of the rear axle. Bob finally decided it was to allow disassembly of the rear axle, but not a very good way to handle that application.
The front fork extensions on the original Roper are an obvious crude adjustment to give the boiler sufficient ground clearance. I don't think the fork extensions would do much for stability of the front end of the bike, and you could go into an uncontrolled gyration if you were not careful at high speeds.
That may have been what actually did Roper in. Who knows?
Not to take anything away from Roper's creative genius, but there are a number of things on the Roper that really should not be copied.
A water tube boiler would be much lighter and would probably produce more steam.
Dick Winger said he is having problems with his Roper replica producing enough steam to be used with the size engine on his bike.

Hi,,Will try to write more later,,The rear wheel was O-K,,delecate work ,to use on hand parts,,Dont forget this was a 70 something,old mans winter project,,AND he finnished it,,wow,,,whole thing weighs 100# try to find a lighter water tube ya,,,,,maybee,,The fork extension,,LISTEN UP,,,this frame was the last year of SOLID TYRES,on the then NEW safety cycle,,and larger wheel on the front,,,,When he converted it to pneumatics,, / front and rear,,well it didn't work,,the new wheel was smaller so he BRAZED [a bieutiful job] those extensions on the fork,,he also repaired the saddle spring at the rear,,the repairs and mods are as interesting as any other parts,The bike was a guift from Col Pope,,,,I never did figgure if he used charcoal or maple shoe heels ,a common trash item of that daye,,Darchesta Ave, [dorchester av is correct,,] is fairly flat,,as well as over ta E Bastin,,[Boston] so I think the bike may not have been a screamer,,,just a good ride,,but remember,,no one else had one,,George Roper still lives a short distance from there,and the Irish accent still is in Darchesta,,haha,,,,and I managed to direct Roper family archives to the Stanley museum as a final repository,,I found Constance Hansen lived only a few miles from me at the old farm,,She was Charles Roper's daughter,,Sylvesters grandaughter,,Small world,,,Nergaard and I visited her several times,,gave her a ride in Daves old 735 Stanley,,Memories,,,Ben

There are many facinating things about the Roper that I am sure most cannot appreciate. Roper did not have a Taiwanese lathe and mill, and he did not plug his lathe and mill into the wall electricity. I am sure he did not have a well stocked hardware store on the corner.
There are so many intangible and near impossible things that Roper overcame to make that bike, especially in the time period that he made it, that his achievement is certainly underestimated.
I imagine in his day, things were more like a blacksmith shop.
It is a remarkable piece of work, and a very difficult piece to make even in a modern shop with modern equipment.
Hats off to Roper.

Ben, Those were solid forged forks front and rear right? Not the flimsy or lighter?! oval tube forks of later? For a watertube that small the casing and insulation can be a signifacant proportion of the boiler weight, with a fire tube the casing IS the boiler(sometimes)! Solid fuel equals no dead auxilarry fuel storage and manipulation weight or space, something tells me he might have been burning chared coal that is coke, dense burns "clean" fires hard. Used in a forge one must keep constant air going to it or it goes OUT! Best to mix some pea coal in with it. Coffee grounds are also a great addition to a coal or coke fire, coal and coffee smoke, yummm! A French Loco burned coffee grounds in with their coal, hummm, a traveling advertisement/caffine inducer.

Those solid tires had a much lower rolling resistance then the early air pocket tires, much easier rolling, especially in the soft ground, saddle springs and old knees still make good suspensions!HA!!

Nergaard had the idea(a great one) to use a Serpelot "boiler" with the foot pedels being used to pump in the water! Brilliant! A simple SA engine two cylinder or more, high pressure and temperature capable, solid fuel hummm. . .

Caleb Ramsby

I would like to test a water tube boiler in the Roper replica.
I had in mind three tubes of about 1 1/2" each horizontal, 12" long, with two at the bottom, and one at the top, and then a series of 1/4" copper tubes in an "S" shape between them.
Anyone have an idea of how to calculate the number of tubes that would be required in order to run a Roper replica engine continuously at perhaps 1/3 throttle? The engine bore is about 1.75", and about 2.5" stroke.
I think I can use a white gas camp stove for a burner. Many of then have a large BTU output. But if I need more surface area than I can fit into the case, then that would be good to know that information now.
Also, I assume the water level should be at about 1/3 of the upper horizontal tube, but that is a guess. Anyone have experience with this arrangement?

Also, most message boards recommend 100-150 psi of steam pressure, but the Stanleys apparently ran at 500 psi. I understand the Stanley boiler was wire-wound, but what about the rest of the fittings, piping, joints, sightglass, tubing, etc.
500 psi seems to be reaching some limits published by the copper tubing manufacturers.
What is the downside to the higher pressures, assuming sufficiently strong parts and pieces are used?
Aluminum scuba tanks routinely operate at 3,000 psi.
Steel tanks operate around 2,500 psi.
500 psi seems like low pressure compared to those numbers.

Hi,,,The original bike had Bore 2",,Stroke 4",,valve,, / ,625" Roper was a shop owner in the old days,,had a workforce ov 60-75men around,,1850-70?? when he was building hot air engines,in New York City,,,,HUGE engines,,and the fire was UNDER PRESSURE,,WOW,,,,REALLY it was,,,,,Roper pre dated George Brayton,,,Re tooling,,,believe me,,WILKINSONS' HARDWARE HAD IT ALL,,from a blow torch to hand plainer,,yes,,metal plainerr,,,Caleb,,The forks were TUBULAR just like the Italian racers,,,the tour de Frence things,,He was a master of the forge,,Can you find a shop to forge braze a bike today,,Many times these old masters leave some jewell behind,,,,just to see if we notice,G ,Whitney was one of these,,He built things that are impossible,,,the old masters,,,,mmmm,,,A boiler w/ ,062"wall thickness,,and a dry weight of 100# ,whole bike,,,,I think he was planning to lag the boiler,,,but never got to it,,,there were signs that it was never finnished,,On new biler,,I think quarter inch tube too small,,will blow out the water and burn like the Doble Detroit,not enough circulation,,,,Dont forget this was among his last 4 vehicles,,3 wheel log hauler,,a tandem quadricycle,,w/ napther nozzles,,and another I think,,the 1863 buggy is in the H Ford museum,,there are 2 other survivors,,,mislabled,,haha,,Cheers Ben / what did I forget ??cb

Hi, interesting to note the differences between Bob's bike and Ropers, both are as much their makers as not! Jorgenson was just like Roper in many ways, a seat of the pants type of designer and maker!

I must say that in many ways it is more difficult to make a "modern" design then an original like Ropers, especially with "modern" machines and practices.

When I got into blacksmithing I couldn't believe how many doors it opened up in the design and build process, many more then sparky welding did!

Reverse engineering some of Ropers and others designs shows that the factors of saftey used were, well. . . they made things VERY light! Simular to the almost all wood WWI bi-planes, one would be very hard pressed to duplicate their lb per sq ft ratio with even carbon-carbon fiber. Wood is increadibly strong and light!

If anything I think that the lack of CAD, CNC etc. imbeded a capacity for a more hands on, intuitive design process, see test to failure processes.

One thing about higher pressure is that although the engine gets smaller, it gets much heavier per displacement, as does the boiler and fittings etc. Unless you are looking at getting over 60 mph, you shouldn't need too much pressure.

Things like the bulged out rectangular boiler, well not safe by modern standards, but it DID NOT blow up!

What ever happened to Whitney? By most accounts his car was copied by the Stanley brothers, it just seems like Whitney had more in him. . .

Wonder how much Whitney is in Ropers bike and Roper was in Whitney car, late night design debates over a pot of coffee. The World was a bit smaller back then and a bit more free.

Caleb Ramsby

"Seat-of-the-pants designer" is a good description.
It was more quantity, and less quality.
It takes a surprising amount of time to do the calcs on a working engine, and there is a whole lot more to it than many would think.

Looking at many of the videos on YouTube of the old stationary engines, it is hard to appreciate how many generations of engine developement these represent.

The early engines were quite primitive, and the latter types were very sophisticated. Looking at the exterior of a latter engine can lull you into a false sense of ability. Trying to build a modern steam engine is tricky.

It is unfortunate that the design documents from engines like those in the Titanic cannot be made public.

There was a story in the motorcycle magazines about the editors hot rodding a Yamaha SR500 engine in order to get more power out of it. Theu made mods to the carb, valves, compression,etc. and then put it on the dyno. The hp went down.
They tried again with similar results. After five attempts to get more hp, they contacted the Japanese designer of the engine. He said the engine was optimized as it was, and was the result of several years of design and re-design.
Even tiny changes like the shape of the valve seat and a slight increase in the carb intake tube length decreased horsepower.
It is hard to find good engine design books.
No one wants to reveal their trade secrets.

I couldn't agree more!

When I first got into steam power one of the first books I got a hold of was a 100 year old International Correspondence School book on steam engine design.

At first I ignored a lot of what it stated on the design issues, since it was not generally giving formulas for the design of various engine components, but rather stating what dimension ratios were in general use for a given engine type, ie speed, pressure and service use.

Then after acquiring a dozen or so much more technical and much more detailed books on the subject I have began to see the wisdom of the ICS book with its quoting of the general practices of the time!

With steam as with IC engines it is in great part all about the valves, their size, position and timing. Often Locos were almost cripled by having their valve timing set improperly or it getting loose and disorderly.

Another issue that is often ignored almost completely, especially these days, is the maintaince and practicality of a design. Numerous trick Loco valve gear were made, tested in service for a few months or more and then removed and refited with the original valve gear! The trick stuff, although it looked better on paper was junk on the track, either impossible to keep set or a number of other issues.

Interestingly the Stephenson and Walschearts valve gear, two of the oldest, were by and far the most popular in actual use.

The Caprotti is finally in actual use now, with a bigger and UNchoked firebox so we will see how it holds up. Supposed to be using 14 lbs per hp hour, even less on really short cutoff I believe, that is with a SIMPLE!

Oh yeah, by far the easiest thing to do to a mechanism is to make it run WORSE!HA! Especially any engine out of Japan, they worry every bit into life!

Why are the Titanic documents being held back?

Caleb Ramsby

My understanding is that the Titanic documents are still owned by the ship line that built the Titanic, and I assume they do not want any recognition of their connection to disaster. In general, nobody values or publishes old engineering drawings and calculations. When companies go out of business, generally all of that goes into the trash can. An article in Scientific American details how one guy discovered the original Brooklyn bridge drawings in a drawer. He was told to toss them, but did not. They are now in a museum, and are works of art.
Supposedly, there is more information available on the Titanic's twin ship the Olympia, with was in service for a number of years. Articles about the Titanic often show the Olympia engines, since there are so few Titanic engine photos.

The Titanic engines appear to be the last of an era design, and are quite complex.

Oh MY,,The disaster was ONLY regarding the voyage,,,I think the engineering and performence were supurb,,Running full speed at nite to set a record,,nice idea,,,no cigar,,Would it have been as well rememberd if it was a record run,,I think too,,,people study Fred's 07 disaster run more than the 4 carefully planned successful runs of 1906 ,,Oh well,,Ben

i see on you tube . best work and very interesting

cheers,rusnan

Hello,

My name is Robert Hopkins.

I've been around stanley steamers for probably 11 years.

I'm going to start working on a steam bike and be working on it for years to come.

I was wondering what size engine you would recommend bore/stroke and or 1 cylinder or 2?

I was thinking about using a flash tube boiler in it because its simpler for me construct because I don't have the money or the skill to produce a fire tube boiler and its safer.

I appreciate all the help I can get and I'll probably end up creating a message on the message board.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2009 01:45AM by Stanleyguy101.