1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Boiler treatment
Posted by: Kobus van Jaarsveld (IP Logged)
Date: January 01, 2002 05:31PM
<HTML> We fire up our cars about once a month throughout the year. Usage is generally for one day at a time only. Two questions:
1 How should the boiler be kept during these dormancy periods, full of water, roughly half full as it is after shut-down, or empty?
2 Is there a recommended additive for the boiler water which will inhibit corrosion, scaling, sludge/crud formation and, if we really want to push the boundaries, assist with engine lubrication?</HTML>
1 How should the boiler be kept during these dormancy periods, full of water, roughly half full as it is after shut-down, or empty?
2 Is there a recommended additive for the boiler water which will inhibit corrosion, scaling, sludge/crud formation and, if we really want to push the boundaries, assist with engine lubrication?</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment
Posted by: David K.Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: January 01, 2002 09:33PM
<HTML>Never leave the boiler partly full. Inevitably air will enter as it cools and cause corosion at the water line.
The best easy policy is to blow it down untill it is totaly dry. Any air that enters will be harmless without wetness.
I do not use any additives, but periodically pump some kerosene in while it is hot to dissolve any accumulated cylinder oil. Then use the surface blow off valve to remove it, followed by a normal blowing off to emptiness. Pumping in about ten liters once in a couple of kilometers of touring seems adequate.</HTML>
The best easy policy is to blow it down untill it is totaly dry. Any air that enters will be harmless without wetness.
I do not use any additives, but periodically pump some kerosene in while it is hot to dissolve any accumulated cylinder oil. Then use the surface blow off valve to remove it, followed by a normal blowing off to emptiness. Pumping in about ten liters once in a couple of kilometers of touring seems adequate.</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment
Posted by: Christopher Roberts (IP Logged)
Date: January 03, 2002 11:07PM
<HTML>Kobus:
The best is to have a boiler completly dry. However with a condensing car this promotes a problem. The oil fro the the water tank will settle on the crown sheet. Kerosene is a good way to remove it. I personally leave the boiler all the way full.</HTML>
The best is to have a boiler completly dry. However with a condensing car this promotes a problem. The oil fro the the water tank will settle on the crown sheet. Kerosene is a good way to remove it. I personally leave the boiler all the way full.</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: January 04, 2002 03:32PM
<HTML>Unfortunately blowing a boiler down "completely dry" is in theory only. There is always a little water left, the inside of the boiler is like a rainforest and sucking in air/oxygen to fill the boiler can result in a lot of rust and corrosion if the water PH was acidic as well. If one has a tank of de-airated water to suction from it would serve the boiler well. People with very acidic water should buffer there water with trisodiumphosphate or other PH buffer. Abner Doble always recommended siphoning his monotube boilers full.</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: January 05, 2002 11:31AM
<HTML>I must disagree with this if one is not talking about flash boilers. A boiler full of water invites condensation and serious external corrosion with the onset of humid weather. Almost every book on the subject of power plant operation mentions this.
From my own experience, the remaining heat of the metal seems to do a good job of evaporating any residue of water if one simply leaves the blow off valves open. There is no significant corrosion in my shell and it is now 17 years old, and has been in nearly continuous use.</HTML>
From my own experience, the remaining heat of the metal seems to do a good job of evaporating any residue of water if one simply leaves the blow off valves open. There is no significant corrosion in my shell and it is now 17 years old, and has been in nearly continuous use.</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: January 06, 2002 01:20PM
<HTML>If that is entirely true, David, one must beg the question as to how many thousands of steel boiler tubes you have gone thru in those 17 years of operation. It does not appear that almost completlely blowing a boiler down and having it fill up with air has given your steel tubes any protection. I would agree if one filled the almost dry interior with nitrogen, especially for storage over the long winters we have.</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: January 07, 2002 11:20AM
<HTML>I have had to retube the boiler several times, but NOT because I had corrosion problems. I had oil in the feed water problems until I fitted the filter tank in the condensate line four years ago. Some of the tubes I removed have had some pitting, but mostly at the normal water line.</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment (candles)
Posted by: Timothy J. Senior (IP Logged)
Date: February 22, 2002 10:52AM
<HTML>One idea here in the U.K. with the traction engine fraternity is candles. Blow down, put a couple of lighted candles in the boiler and seal it up. No oxygen no rust. How you do with it a Stanley boiler is a different matter,poke one down the main outlet?
Sodium sulphite added to the feed water helps stop corrosion in all steel boilers, but I don't know what it might do to copper tubes though.</HTML>
Sodium sulphite added to the feed water helps stop corrosion in all steel boilers, but I don't know what it might do to copper tubes though.</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment (candles)
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: February 22, 2002 11:36AM
<HTML>I blowdown hot for the last time before winter with my marine boilers. I then flush from the bottom up with nitrogen, its cheap.
Rolly</HTML>
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment (candles)
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 18, 2002 03:02PM
<HTML>Corrosion is the action resulting in the ionic equilibrium of metals and oxygen. According to the electro chemical theroy, when a metal goes into solution, something must be displaced by the dissolved metal. In the case of iron or steel, the iron dissolves into a solution of iron oxide and tiny hydrogen bubbles evolve. The rate at which it dissolves is dependant on fluid pressure and the amount of oxygen dissolved in it, which is based on the temperature. The dissolved O2 can react with the sub-micro coating of hydrogen that protects the iron or it can combine with dissolved ferrous hydroxide which forms insoluble hydrated ferric compounds (rust) that makes more room for more for the dissolved ferrous hydroxide to form.
There are many factors that influence corrosion and they are of two types, primary, built into the material and secondary, enviromental. Other than improper selection of materials, we have little control over primary factors.
Secondary factors can work independantly or in combination to increase the rate of corrosion. Oxygen concentration is one of the most important factors, the more oxygen you have, the more corrosion is possable. Water line corrosion is the result of higher O2 concentration at the waters surface and some light wave action. Corrosion can indeed occurr when there is no oxygen present, from conditions that cause the evolution of hydrogen.
The pH, the strength or degree of ionization is very important in the corrosion enviroment. All hydrogen ions in solution try to reach a state of electro chemical equilibrium through corrosion. The more available ions (the stronger the acid) the more it will react before reaching the balance point. Pure water is neutral with 1X10 -7 moles per litre of H2 ions with the same number of their neutralizing counterpart, the hydroxyl ion. A lower pH number actually means more H2 ions or stronger acid. A pH of 6 is actually 1X10 -6 H2 ions, or a ten fold increase on a logarithmic scale. An acid pH can dissolve the slight protective coating on the iron and it can increase the amount of H2 gas on the corroding surface.
Another important secondary factor influencing corrosion is the contact of other corrosive fluids such as those containing chloride ions. Clorinated water should be always avoided.
The rate of flow can influence the rate of corrosion when velocities are very high. The action of the fluids can disturb the self protective coatings and any suspended matter is abrasive at high speeds.
Carbon dioxide in solution will form carbonic acid, though not highly ionic, it will still attack most metals. Carbon dioxide is chemically bonded to the water so deairation won't help. Any water having dissolved calcium carbonate in it, is in balance dissolved CO2 and its subsequent use should be avoided.
The junctions of dissimilar metals cause galvanatic corrosion, much like a battery powered by corrosion. Dissimilar metals should be joined with a nonmetalic gasket.
Few conditions will prevent corrosion and the complete removal of water is one. This means the complete removal, not the apparent removal. Steel rusts in the desert. During storage, a dessicant may help to remove the last bit of water. The complete displacement of all other gasses by an inert gas such as nitrogen will almost completely stop corrosion. Another possability would be cathodic protection where the free ions are absorbed in a battery like situtation, preventing their availability for corrosive action. Pipe lines and ocean going vessels are protected in this way as well as devices sold to protect your auto. If the device were purchased to protect your vehicle from road corrosion, this may also prevent boiler and plumbing corrosion during peroids of storage if these parts are in the circuit. Does anyone have any experience with cathodic protection for autos ?
Peter Heid</HTML>
There are many factors that influence corrosion and they are of two types, primary, built into the material and secondary, enviromental. Other than improper selection of materials, we have little control over primary factors.
Secondary factors can work independantly or in combination to increase the rate of corrosion. Oxygen concentration is one of the most important factors, the more oxygen you have, the more corrosion is possable. Water line corrosion is the result of higher O2 concentration at the waters surface and some light wave action. Corrosion can indeed occurr when there is no oxygen present, from conditions that cause the evolution of hydrogen.
The pH, the strength or degree of ionization is very important in the corrosion enviroment. All hydrogen ions in solution try to reach a state of electro chemical equilibrium through corrosion. The more available ions (the stronger the acid) the more it will react before reaching the balance point. Pure water is neutral with 1X10 -7 moles per litre of H2 ions with the same number of their neutralizing counterpart, the hydroxyl ion. A lower pH number actually means more H2 ions or stronger acid. A pH of 6 is actually 1X10 -6 H2 ions, or a ten fold increase on a logarithmic scale. An acid pH can dissolve the slight protective coating on the iron and it can increase the amount of H2 gas on the corroding surface.
Another important secondary factor influencing corrosion is the contact of other corrosive fluids such as those containing chloride ions. Clorinated water should be always avoided.
The rate of flow can influence the rate of corrosion when velocities are very high. The action of the fluids can disturb the self protective coatings and any suspended matter is abrasive at high speeds.
Carbon dioxide in solution will form carbonic acid, though not highly ionic, it will still attack most metals. Carbon dioxide is chemically bonded to the water so deairation won't help. Any water having dissolved calcium carbonate in it, is in balance dissolved CO2 and its subsequent use should be avoided.
The junctions of dissimilar metals cause galvanatic corrosion, much like a battery powered by corrosion. Dissimilar metals should be joined with a nonmetalic gasket.
Few conditions will prevent corrosion and the complete removal of water is one. This means the complete removal, not the apparent removal. Steel rusts in the desert. During storage, a dessicant may help to remove the last bit of water. The complete displacement of all other gasses by an inert gas such as nitrogen will almost completely stop corrosion. Another possability would be cathodic protection where the free ions are absorbed in a battery like situtation, preventing their availability for corrosive action. Pipe lines and ocean going vessels are protected in this way as well as devices sold to protect your auto. If the device were purchased to protect your vehicle from road corrosion, this may also prevent boiler and plumbing corrosion during peroids of storage if these parts are in the circuit. Does anyone have any experience with cathodic protection for autos ?
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment (candles)
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 25, 2002 12:49AM
<HTML>Oops, I missed an important secondary factor, high concentration zones, the point where sediment may accumlate can have higher concentrations of gasses and othe corrosive elements. The concentration zone doesn't have to include sediment, it may only be a point of very slow or no fluid flow including bends, seams, and pipe joints.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment
Posted by: Pat Farrell (IP Logged)
Date: March 25, 2002 02:26PM
<HTML>Dear Kobus,
1. Store your boiler full. For monthly use, let your boiler siphon full after use to displace any air. If you live in a cold climate, for winter storage, drain any water from all parts (i.e. boiler , kidney gauge, water storage tanks, steam pressure gauge). Put in two gallons of RV anti freeze and hand pump until the antifreeze starts to come out of the blowdowns. Closing your blowdowns, charge your system with air and then blow air through your throttle valve, whistle valve, steam siphone, etc. to rid them of water.
2. Additives: With very low ph in our water, I have always use Trisodium phosphate in my boiler water to help prevent rust and to help break down the mud and scale. After 18 years of use, I have experienced no rust problems or calcium build up. Adding anything to the feedwater to aid in engine lubrication would be a negative move. Steam is boiled from water leaving anything that is not H2O, left in the boiler. A cup of kerosene added to the boiler water once every 1,000 miles, is good in that it prevents the water pump check balls from getting greasy from the pump packing, and it helps break down the steam cylinder oil and scale in the boiler aiding in your blowdown. A new boiler will display a lot of rust upon blow downs. After a season of running, the rust should dissapear as scale seals the pores of the new steel. After a burning (scortching) a boiler, a lot of scale lets loose from the inside of your boiler and it may plug up your blow downs. Keep using your blowdowns to get rid of the scale. Eventually the scale will dissapear from your blow down water.</HTML>
1. Store your boiler full. For monthly use, let your boiler siphon full after use to displace any air. If you live in a cold climate, for winter storage, drain any water from all parts (i.e. boiler , kidney gauge, water storage tanks, steam pressure gauge). Put in two gallons of RV anti freeze and hand pump until the antifreeze starts to come out of the blowdowns. Closing your blowdowns, charge your system with air and then blow air through your throttle valve, whistle valve, steam siphone, etc. to rid them of water.
2. Additives: With very low ph in our water, I have always use Trisodium phosphate in my boiler water to help prevent rust and to help break down the mud and scale. After 18 years of use, I have experienced no rust problems or calcium build up. Adding anything to the feedwater to aid in engine lubrication would be a negative move. Steam is boiled from water leaving anything that is not H2O, left in the boiler. A cup of kerosene added to the boiler water once every 1,000 miles, is good in that it prevents the water pump check balls from getting greasy from the pump packing, and it helps break down the steam cylinder oil and scale in the boiler aiding in your blowdown. A new boiler will display a lot of rust upon blow downs. After a season of running, the rust should dissapear as scale seals the pores of the new steel. After a burning (scortching) a boiler, a lot of scale lets loose from the inside of your boiler and it may plug up your blow downs. Keep using your blowdowns to get rid of the scale. Eventually the scale will dissapear from your blow down water.</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 26, 2002 10:27AM
<HTML>Hi Pat,
I found your mention of scale sealing up pits in boiler metal extremely interesting, makes sense and much appreciated. The scale coming out after boiler scorching seems proof positive. This has been input into thought process, as comments under "Steel pistons" indicate. Filling pits was about the only use for graphite additives that made sense to me; now I think it is not needed as long as cylinder lubricator is working right. Nice to not need cloggy graphite for this purpose -- later condensing Stanleys didn't use it anyway, or later Dobles.
Also good tip on adding kero to feedwater.
Peter</HTML>
I found your mention of scale sealing up pits in boiler metal extremely interesting, makes sense and much appreciated. The scale coming out after boiler scorching seems proof positive. This has been input into thought process, as comments under "Steel pistons" indicate. Filling pits was about the only use for graphite additives that made sense to me; now I think it is not needed as long as cylinder lubricator is working right. Nice to not need cloggy graphite for this purpose -- later condensing Stanleys didn't use it anyway, or later Dobles.
Also good tip on adding kero to feedwater.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: April 01, 2002 02:32AM
<HTML>According to the books on the subject, boilers should be stored empty if possable, so the areas of high oxygen concentration in the water do not cause localized pitting. Boiler tubes have under gone 30% penetration in 2 weeks of storage in localized pitting, with little other corrosion. Normal daily temperature fluctuations during storage will cause the release of oxygen from solution in the water, allowing these areas of accumlation and corrosion. If you must, a full boiler for storage should be kept in a pH range of 10.5 to 11.5 to counter act the continued acid forming actions and slow the oxygens corrosion ability. The pH should be checked at least once a month and corrected if needed. Preferably the water used for storage should be de-oxygenated and the boiler sealed from the atmosphere when filled.
Any deposits on the walls will cause corrosion because of the difference in potential between the wall material and the deposit material. This forms a dead short battery that is consuming the less nobel or more anodic element. There is no such thing as protective deposits. A deposit covering a pit is actively corroding that area. Deposits also cause gases of corrosion to be trapped against the corroding area, further accelerating the trouble.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Any deposits on the walls will cause corrosion because of the difference in potential between the wall material and the deposit material. This forms a dead short battery that is consuming the less nobel or more anodic element. There is no such thing as protective deposits. A deposit covering a pit is actively corroding that area. Deposits also cause gases of corrosion to be trapped against the corroding area, further accelerating the trouble.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2002 07:47AM
<HTML>Hi Peter,
Then again, there are all sorts of classic steam car boilers, full of oil, scale, etc, which have lasted for years or decades with frequent storage & little or no water treatment, while some ultraclean modern steam car boilers, run with distilled water and no oil, have pinholed quickly, leading their developers to adopt stainless tubing. Perhaps deposits are corrosive, but their absence is even more so?
Peter</HTML>
Then again, there are all sorts of classic steam car boilers, full of oil, scale, etc, which have lasted for years or decades with frequent storage & little or no water treatment, while some ultraclean modern steam car boilers, run with distilled water and no oil, have pinholed quickly, leading their developers to adopt stainless tubing. Perhaps deposits are corrosive, but their absence is even more so?
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2002 03:44PM
<HTML>Peter,
Distilled water is ready to accept any substance freely disolved in it, it is actually very reactive in this respect. A balance can be somewhat reached where the disolved solids leave no more room to put more solids into solution. Even distilled water should be treated to keep the pH high enough to prevent most of the reaction with the oxygen, and to counter act the formation of acidic conditions present when in use and storage. A modern high pressure, high temperature boiler has different operating conditions chemically than say a 600 psi boiler of days past. Pressure and temperature are both factors that increase corrosion as they increase, also elevated operating conditions tend to break down the chemicals used to treat the water.
There seems to be no single answer to the corrosion question, in use or in storage, only guide lines and past experiences to follow.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Distilled water is ready to accept any substance freely disolved in it, it is actually very reactive in this respect. A balance can be somewhat reached where the disolved solids leave no more room to put more solids into solution. Even distilled water should be treated to keep the pH high enough to prevent most of the reaction with the oxygen, and to counter act the formation of acidic conditions present when in use and storage. A modern high pressure, high temperature boiler has different operating conditions chemically than say a 600 psi boiler of days past. Pressure and temperature are both factors that increase corrosion as they increase, also elevated operating conditions tend to break down the chemicals used to treat the water.
There seems to be no single answer to the corrosion question, in use or in storage, only guide lines and past experiences to follow.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment (candles)
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2002 05:16PM
<HTML>Has any one tried this stuff. TERLYN LSB
[www.terlyn.com]
I've been told by the manufacture about fifteen steamcar guys are useing it. They won't tell you what it is.
Rolly</HTML>
[www.terlyn.com]
I've been told by the manufacture about fifteen steamcar guys are useing it. They won't tell you what it is.
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2002 06:28AM
<HTML>Hi Peter,
Well said. That is one of the reasons I am designing for 500 psi, 700°F steam, plain steel tubing (still the standard for boiler work), & tap water with trace oil. Stainless tubing costs more, is harder to work (welds, work hardening, etc), and reportedly has corrosion problems with chlorinated tap water & hydrogen in combustion chamber.
Almost any boiler problem can be solved with the right water treatment, but proper testing & chemical balancing is a hassle, and varies from place to place and even from time to time in the same place, where water from different reservoirs is used in the same water distribution system. I don't like the idea of taking a cross-country trip in my steam car and fiddling with test kits and different calculated mixes of 2-3 or more chemicals at every water refill (hydrazine, filming amines, etc). I once briefly considered an automatic feedwater testing/treatment system -- whew. Chemical plant on wheels.
One thing that may be worth looking into is coatings such as Parkerizing or Bonderizing (phosphate coatings). Some late Stanley boilers were Parkerized inside, and with graphited distillate oil, excellent service life was reported without water treatment or elaborate boiler care.
Probably the best boiler protection is to keep it hot 24/7/365 with daily use, rarely an option with antiques, alas. Plus of course regular blowdowns. IC cars can suffer from disuse too -- bearing/ring rust/gunk, acidic oil breakdown, sludge, etc.. I've seen several gas engines seize up just from sitting, one had even been properly drained and fitted with storage plugs. Sometimes after extended sitting, they'll start up fine and then fail catastrophically a few miles down the road.
Peter</HTML>
Well said. That is one of the reasons I am designing for 500 psi, 700°F steam, plain steel tubing (still the standard for boiler work), & tap water with trace oil. Stainless tubing costs more, is harder to work (welds, work hardening, etc), and reportedly has corrosion problems with chlorinated tap water & hydrogen in combustion chamber.
Almost any boiler problem can be solved with the right water treatment, but proper testing & chemical balancing is a hassle, and varies from place to place and even from time to time in the same place, where water from different reservoirs is used in the same water distribution system. I don't like the idea of taking a cross-country trip in my steam car and fiddling with test kits and different calculated mixes of 2-3 or more chemicals at every water refill (hydrazine, filming amines, etc). I once briefly considered an automatic feedwater testing/treatment system -- whew. Chemical plant on wheels.
One thing that may be worth looking into is coatings such as Parkerizing or Bonderizing (phosphate coatings). Some late Stanley boilers were Parkerized inside, and with graphited distillate oil, excellent service life was reported without water treatment or elaborate boiler care.
Probably the best boiler protection is to keep it hot 24/7/365 with daily use, rarely an option with antiques, alas. Plus of course regular blowdowns. IC cars can suffer from disuse too -- bearing/ring rust/gunk, acidic oil breakdown, sludge, etc.. I've seen several gas engines seize up just from sitting, one had even been properly drained and fitted with storage plugs. Sometimes after extended sitting, they'll start up fine and then fail catastrophically a few miles down the road.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2002 06:53AM
<HTML>Hi Peter,
In steam systems with more than one kind of material exposed to water or steam (any condensing system), a treatment which protects one material can severely corrode another. Treatment balanced & optimized for one set of system material & water conditions then needs expert rebalancing for every set of water conditions encountered. The chemistry can get complex. I have also read that some water treatment chemicals can react with oil -- most industrial treatments are for oil free systems. Protective trace oil films, on their own, have few chemical problems, but impose practical design limits on heat-transfer surface temps.
Peter</HTML>
In steam systems with more than one kind of material exposed to water or steam (any condensing system), a treatment which protects one material can severely corrode another. Treatment balanced & optimized for one set of system material & water conditions then needs expert rebalancing for every set of water conditions encountered. The chemistry can get complex. I have also read that some water treatment chemicals can react with oil -- most industrial treatments are for oil free systems. Protective trace oil films, on their own, have few chemical problems, but impose practical design limits on heat-transfer surface temps.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2002 08:12PM
<HTML>Peter,
I have thought of a pH and a disolved solids meter hooked to the system so that the operator could be alerted as to when the pH needed correction and as to when you should blow down. Industrial land based generators expell water from the steam drum in quantities of about 0.5% of the feed water, to keep the disolved solids to an acceptable level. They don't blow down during times of operation due to interuptions in steam production. Many modern installations include the use of automatic pH correction and some even have the complete water treatment automated. They can afford the room to do it as well as the cash to outlay. They have room for lots of toys, being land based, even steel shot cleaning around the boiler tubes is automated. I wonder if you can hear 15 to 25, 3/8 steel shot per square foot, per second, falling 150 feet or so through the generator tubes. Look out below !
Peter Heid</HTML>
I have thought of a pH and a disolved solids meter hooked to the system so that the operator could be alerted as to when the pH needed correction and as to when you should blow down. Industrial land based generators expell water from the steam drum in quantities of about 0.5% of the feed water, to keep the disolved solids to an acceptable level. They don't blow down during times of operation due to interuptions in steam production. Many modern installations include the use of automatic pH correction and some even have the complete water treatment automated. They can afford the room to do it as well as the cash to outlay. They have room for lots of toys, being land based, even steel shot cleaning around the boiler tubes is automated. I wonder if you can hear 15 to 25, 3/8 steel shot per square foot, per second, falling 150 feet or so through the generator tubes. Look out below !
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Boiler treatment
Posted by: Garry Hunsaker (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2002 11:46PM
<HTML>If my memory serves me, the old Missouri Power and Light generating plant in Kirksville Mo, that my father worked at, used water softeners in combination with additional chemicals designed to protect the boilers. I do remember him showing me the test chemicals, which depending on what shade of color they turned, that told them how much and what they needed to add to the make up water. There were three main boilers in the old plant, all water tube types installed by Combustion Engineering between 1940 and 1949. The last unit was the only one rated, and it was running 135,000 lbs hr at 675 psi. I have the ID plates off the boilers here. The site of the old plant is now a parking lot. (I use to spend a bit of my summer vacations on the midnight shift with my father at the plant. By the time I was 12 years old, I was running his hourly rounds on the feed tank levels and what not. Imagine someone trying to get away with that in this day and age! I missed the coal days after they went to gas. There were always neat chunks of fools gold dumping out of the coal processors into a barell that had to be dumped with an electric cable hoist)
Any way, all I ever recall were the replacement of the super heater tubes when the plant was converted to natural gas in the early sixties. The plant was finally shut down do to the economy of scale of larger facilities in 1967. Dad is on vacation, and probably won’t be back for another month, but I’ll see if he remembers what they used back then.
Hmmm, or maybe this was just me reminiscing...
Garry</HTML>
Any way, all I ever recall were the replacement of the super heater tubes when the plant was converted to natural gas in the early sixties. The plant was finally shut down do to the economy of scale of larger facilities in 1967. Dad is on vacation, and probably won’t be back for another month, but I’ll see if he remembers what they used back then.
Hmmm, or maybe this was just me reminiscing...
Garry</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2002 12:57AM
<HTML>Peter,
Your right to stay in reasonable limits if you like steel and reciprocating engines. Engineering and design difficulties start croping up once you hit the 750-800 degree F. mark. Piston rings loose their tension unless made of special alloys or or metals such as inconel, fasteners start to loose their temper and strech. Oils that vaporize at 600 degrees can tolerate a maximum of 800 degrees cylinder operating temperature, even the beloved trisodium phosphate will start to break down in high temperatures and pressures. Some types of stainless start to crystalize at 800 degrees and other metals develop plastic tendencies that can cause problems from clearance changes to complete failure. A book could be written on the difficulties an engineer faces when trying to combine 800 plus degree steam and a reciprocating engine. I don't have the ability to work in that reigon and don't mind saying so.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Your right to stay in reasonable limits if you like steel and reciprocating engines. Engineering and design difficulties start croping up once you hit the 750-800 degree F. mark. Piston rings loose their tension unless made of special alloys or or metals such as inconel, fasteners start to loose their temper and strech. Oils that vaporize at 600 degrees can tolerate a maximum of 800 degrees cylinder operating temperature, even the beloved trisodium phosphate will start to break down in high temperatures and pressures. Some types of stainless start to crystalize at 800 degrees and other metals develop plastic tendencies that can cause problems from clearance changes to complete failure. A book could be written on the difficulties an engineer faces when trying to combine 800 plus degree steam and a reciprocating engine. I don't have the ability to work in that reigon and don't mind saying so.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Richard W. Roberts (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2002 05:26AM
<HTML>Gentlemen
I have read all of these reply's spurred by Kobus vanJaarsveld, with great interest. Having had very early failure with steel boiler tubes, within just months of retubing a condencing Brooks boiler. All failures were pits at normal water level, and during a time of frequent use, at least twice a week and usually more often. The thought I came up with though not a chemist, was a reaction between the lubricating oil and the clorine in our water, it felt acidic. Consulting with those who understand chemistry, the suggestion was to use "LYE", to nutralize the clorine. Since that time I
have added one tablespoon of lye to every water fill up done at home. On the road this is not practical so it is ignored. It has been ten years since doing the "lye" trick and no lost tubes yet. An added bonus the lye seems to turn lubricating oil to soap like solution and blows down a dirty brown, where as it was always clear at blow down before the lye .
One other item, if returning from a run with water tank holding enough, " boiled then condensed", water to siphon the boiler full as it cools , this would have no oxygen and if boiler fittings are tight so air can't enter, then one should have a boiler full of oxygen free water, (no rust) ?
The early days when tubes were failing, I would return home and fill water tank with fresh tap water (fresh clorine in the water ) this would siphon into the boiler adding to my problems. I don't think blowing a boiler down will dry it out as once the pressure is gone there will still be some moisture left inside the boiler that won't be able to escape, no draft.</HTML>
I have read all of these reply's spurred by Kobus vanJaarsveld, with great interest. Having had very early failure with steel boiler tubes, within just months of retubing a condencing Brooks boiler. All failures were pits at normal water level, and during a time of frequent use, at least twice a week and usually more often. The thought I came up with though not a chemist, was a reaction between the lubricating oil and the clorine in our water, it felt acidic. Consulting with those who understand chemistry, the suggestion was to use "LYE", to nutralize the clorine. Since that time I
have added one tablespoon of lye to every water fill up done at home. On the road this is not practical so it is ignored. It has been ten years since doing the "lye" trick and no lost tubes yet. An added bonus the lye seems to turn lubricating oil to soap like solution and blows down a dirty brown, where as it was always clear at blow down before the lye .
One other item, if returning from a run with water tank holding enough, " boiled then condensed", water to siphon the boiler full as it cools , this would have no oxygen and if boiler fittings are tight so air can't enter, then one should have a boiler full of oxygen free water, (no rust) ?
The early days when tubes were failing, I would return home and fill water tank with fresh tap water (fresh clorine in the water ) this would siphon into the boiler adding to my problems. I don't think blowing a boiler down will dry it out as once the pressure is gone there will still be some moisture left inside the boiler that won't be able to escape, no draft.</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2002 11:17AM
<HTML>Hi Richard,
There was quite a bit of discussion of this stuff on the Lightsteam List a few years ago. Consensus seemed to be that boiling/condensing does remove the oxygen, which is then displaced by a steam blanket atop the warm tank water. Reabsorption of oxygen after tank cooldown might then be inhibited by an oil film on the water surface. Some deaeration of tank water may occur through heating by warm condensate.
Supposedly the chorine in tap water will evaporate during heating or sitting. However, I seem to recall something about different methods of chlorination, and some methods not allowing evaporation of chlorine(?). Cold chlorinated tap water siphoning into boiler might not leave enough time or heat for chlorine evaporation(?) Or the problem may have been excess O2, metallurgical flaws in tubing, or some other chemical condition. Perhaps someone more chemically minded can advise.
Yep, lye plus oil equals soap! How's that for a clean boiler! Wonder how it works on scale?
Peter</HTML>
There was quite a bit of discussion of this stuff on the Lightsteam List a few years ago. Consensus seemed to be that boiling/condensing does remove the oxygen, which is then displaced by a steam blanket atop the warm tank water. Reabsorption of oxygen after tank cooldown might then be inhibited by an oil film on the water surface. Some deaeration of tank water may occur through heating by warm condensate.
Supposedly the chorine in tap water will evaporate during heating or sitting. However, I seem to recall something about different methods of chlorination, and some methods not allowing evaporation of chlorine(?). Cold chlorinated tap water siphoning into boiler might not leave enough time or heat for chlorine evaporation(?) Or the problem may have been excess O2, metallurgical flaws in tubing, or some other chemical condition. Perhaps someone more chemically minded can advise.
Yep, lye plus oil equals soap! How's that for a clean boiler! Wonder how it works on scale?
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2002 11:44AM
<HTML>Hi Pete,
Yep, that's me -- chicken. Some things I can design/build, some I can't. As Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations". I think iron and steel will do fine in the hot zones, if temps are kept in the proven range. I do have some wild ideas I want to try with advanced materials in colder parts of the powerplant, though, so I guess I'm not completely KFC. That's not, ah say _not_ a foul abbreviation, folks.
I have always wondered what tube temps are in various parts of typical steam car boilers. Obviously hotter than the steam/water in contact with them, or no heat transfer would be going on.
Peter</HTML>
Yep, that's me -- chicken. Some things I can design/build, some I can't. As Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations". I think iron and steel will do fine in the hot zones, if temps are kept in the proven range. I do have some wild ideas I want to try with advanced materials in colder parts of the powerplant, though, so I guess I'm not completely KFC. That's not, ah say _not_ a foul abbreviation, folks.
I have always wondered what tube temps are in various parts of typical steam car boilers. Obviously hotter than the steam/water in contact with them, or no heat transfer would be going on.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2002 04:12PM
<HTML>To effectively remove chlorine the water has to be mist sprayed into the air or boiled for a long enough time. Chlorinated water must sit for more than a week to allow the chlorine to disassociate from the water at room temperature. A hot shower from a chlorinated water source will fill the shower stall with dilute chlorine gas, because of the elevated temperature and the exposure to air from the waters increased surface area. The same amount of boiling necessarry to deoxygenate should be ok for chlorine removal but any remaining chloride ions will find concentration zones and the gas can be traped in fittings, flanges and other pockets and increase localized corrosion. You know how cars have the label by the fuel tank" Unleaded Fuel Only", well the steam vehicles water tank should say "Non-Clorinated Water only"
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: April 09, 2002 07:38PM
<HTML>Hi Pete,
Then again, there are accounts like "A 1300 Mile Jaunt in a Stanley Steamer", by H. Clark Foster, The Steam Automobile, Vol. 25 #1, pp 38-39.
Foster bought a Model 726 Stanley in 1922 "from a man in El Paso who had run it without cylinder oil or crankcase lubricant".
"After overhauling the engine, I made some additions ... Thereafter, this car was driven almost daily for eight years which included this [1300 mile title] trip..."
"It may be of interest that this original Stanley boiler lasted ten years on a diet of any kind of water before it started to lose a few tubes, at which time I replaced it with a water tube [Baker?] boiler and increased the steam pressure from 600 psi to 1000. I think that the bit of cylinder oil returned to the boilers with condensate, and remaining after blow-downs, probably protected them from mineral deposits and/or rust, and the oil coating (if there was one) did not seem to do any particular harm."
Fun story, btw, about a trip from El Paso to St. Louis, in 1922-24. I believe that most US city water was chlorinated by the 1920s, but don't know about St. Louis where he apparently did most of the daily driving in his Stanley.
Ten years of service life ain't too bad for a steel boiler running on untreated water. ("I could always find a source of water, although sometimes quite dirty, which could be drawn into the tank with the steam syphon", Foster recalls of his El Paso to St. Louis "1300 mile jaunt".) How many gas cars go 10 years before engine trouble? Okay, mine has 22 years on it, but I baby it and don't drive much.
Peter</HTML>
Then again, there are accounts like "A 1300 Mile Jaunt in a Stanley Steamer", by H. Clark Foster, The Steam Automobile, Vol. 25 #1, pp 38-39.
Foster bought a Model 726 Stanley in 1922 "from a man in El Paso who had run it without cylinder oil or crankcase lubricant".
"After overhauling the engine, I made some additions ... Thereafter, this car was driven almost daily for eight years which included this [1300 mile title] trip..."
"It may be of interest that this original Stanley boiler lasted ten years on a diet of any kind of water before it started to lose a few tubes, at which time I replaced it with a water tube [Baker?] boiler and increased the steam pressure from 600 psi to 1000. I think that the bit of cylinder oil returned to the boilers with condensate, and remaining after blow-downs, probably protected them from mineral deposits and/or rust, and the oil coating (if there was one) did not seem to do any particular harm."
Fun story, btw, about a trip from El Paso to St. Louis, in 1922-24. I believe that most US city water was chlorinated by the 1920s, but don't know about St. Louis where he apparently did most of the daily driving in his Stanley.
Ten years of service life ain't too bad for a steel boiler running on untreated water. ("I could always find a source of water, although sometimes quite dirty, which could be drawn into the tank with the steam syphon", Foster recalls of his El Paso to St. Louis "1300 mile jaunt".) How many gas cars go 10 years before engine trouble? Okay, mine has 22 years on it, but I baby it and don't drive much.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Storage
Posted by: Tim Senior (IP Logged)
Date: April 10, 2002 02:07PM
<HTML> A product called Antichlor used to be available. This was, as I best remember, was a solution of sodium thiosulphate and an alkali.
When added to water it converted the chlorine to sodium chloride, sodium sulphate was also produced.
What about the stuff that aquarist use to dechlorinate the water for aquariums?
Tim Senior</HTML>
When added to water it converted the chlorine to sodium chloride, sodium sulphate was also produced.
What about the stuff that aquarist use to dechlorinate the water for aquariums?
Tim Senior</HTML>
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