1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Ductile iron for cylinder blocks
Posted by: Mike Clark (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2002 03:39PM
<HTML>The early dry 20hp Model F and H Stanley cylinder block is prone to breakage of the frame lugs which are too small and are badly machined with a very nasty sharp filet radius on the face where the nut sits. I have two original blocks, both with cracks, one of which has been successfully repaired by gas fusion welding but am keen to get round this in a more permanent way.
I am sure than with thicker sections and more careful attention to filet radius etc that a stronger grey iron block could be made but wonder whether anyone has tried casting cylinders in ductile (S.G.) iron which is much more able to withstand tensile loads than grey iron.
How would ductile iron handle wear on bores and valve faces and if it has been tried what material specification was used?
Mike Clark</HTML>
I am sure than with thicker sections and more careful attention to filet radius etc that a stronger grey iron block could be made but wonder whether anyone has tried casting cylinders in ductile (S.G.) iron which is much more able to withstand tensile loads than grey iron.
How would ductile iron handle wear on bores and valve faces and if it has been tried what material specification was used?
Mike Clark</HTML>
Re: Ductile iron for cylinder blocks
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2002 12:06AM
<HTML>Ductile iron is almost no longer produced and today very few people have any experience with it in any way including casting it. Cast iron with the proper nickle content produces very strong castings where plain iron may not be suitable. This is the modern answer to the high strength of ductile iron, I guess. Any stressed member requires the correct design which includes proper radius on all internal and external corners. Ductile iron exhibits similar wear properties as grey iron in many instances.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Ductile iron for cylinder blocks
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2002 11:32AM
<HTML>I suspect that the failures mentioned are due to the weakness of the Stanley engine frame rather than to any in the block. The four bar frame has almost no torsional stiffness so when the engine is producing a high torque the block twists around to a scary extent. Bar failures in Stanley engine frames are common, especially in the heavy condensing cars. Does the nature of the cracks indicate what kind of stress caused them?</HTML>
Re: Ductile iron for cylinder blocks
Posted by: William L. Petitjean, P.E. (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2002 02:35PM
<HTML>Ductile iron is still manufactured to some extent, but Peter is correct it has largely been replaced by alloy gray iron castings.
In my mind Ductile, or malleable iron is a good candidate for cylinder blocks, crankshafts and connecting rods because it can easily achieve 80,000 psi tensile strengths, yet remain quite ductile. The primary difference between ductile and gray irons is that the high graphite content is exhibited as speriods in Ductile while it is exhibited as large flakes in gray iron. Ductile is made by controlled overheating which forms the spheriods. If the ladle is poured at the right temperature the Ductile characteristics are frozen in the casting when it cools. Gray irons are great at absorbing shocks, but they will not creep. They fracture instead. Ductiles will creep, but generally do not fracture unless fatigue is present.
Gray iron probably will wear a little better in cylinder bores because its graphite is in a free form than "smears" and helps burnish bores that are properly run in. Both types of iron are porous and this helps absorb and retain lubricants that are injected with the steam.
I just visited an iron foundry in Arlington, Washington that still makes several grades of Ductile iron. My friend is having some passenger car wheels cast in Ductile. So It can be obtained -- just have to find a foundry that makes it.
One reply to my post on hot head engines asks where I live. I live with my wife and 13 year old daughter near Seattle, Washington. My wife is from Massachusetts though, so I am familiar with almost everywhere in the U.S.
This forum is like finding an oasis for me. The content is very technical, competent and it is great! I hope I can add to it from time to time.
Bill Petitjean</HTML>
In my mind Ductile, or malleable iron is a good candidate for cylinder blocks, crankshafts and connecting rods because it can easily achieve 80,000 psi tensile strengths, yet remain quite ductile. The primary difference between ductile and gray irons is that the high graphite content is exhibited as speriods in Ductile while it is exhibited as large flakes in gray iron. Ductile is made by controlled overheating which forms the spheriods. If the ladle is poured at the right temperature the Ductile characteristics are frozen in the casting when it cools. Gray irons are great at absorbing shocks, but they will not creep. They fracture instead. Ductiles will creep, but generally do not fracture unless fatigue is present.
Gray iron probably will wear a little better in cylinder bores because its graphite is in a free form than "smears" and helps burnish bores that are properly run in. Both types of iron are porous and this helps absorb and retain lubricants that are injected with the steam.
I just visited an iron foundry in Arlington, Washington that still makes several grades of Ductile iron. My friend is having some passenger car wheels cast in Ductile. So It can be obtained -- just have to find a foundry that makes it.
One reply to my post on hot head engines asks where I live. I live with my wife and 13 year old daughter near Seattle, Washington. My wife is from Massachusetts though, so I am familiar with almost everywhere in the U.S.
This forum is like finding an oasis for me. The content is very technical, competent and it is great! I hope I can add to it from time to time.
Bill Petitjean</HTML>
Re: Ductile iron for cylinder blocks
Posted by: Terry Williams (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2002 02:53PM
<HTML>Many tons of nodular cast iron is being poured each year. Most automobile crankshafts have been cast of nodular cast iron for many years now. We'll have to get together one of these days, Bill. My wife was born and raised in Massachussetts, near Worcester.</HTML>
Re: Ductile iron for cylinder blocks
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2002 06:07PM
<HTML>Bill and Terry,
Again what a small wolrd it is!! My woman friend was born and raised outside of Worcester and lives about 10 miles from its center. I had head that there were a few foundries in that region still doing Nodular(ductile) iron and it is a very strong material, the old ASME A396 could have a tensile strength of up to 120,000 and a yield strength of 90,000;that is its yield strength was twice as much as the tensile strength a really good cast iron. Great material if you can get it(poured). Worcester makes it a small world, doesn't it??
Best, George</HTML>
Again what a small wolrd it is!! My woman friend was born and raised outside of Worcester and lives about 10 miles from its center. I had head that there were a few foundries in that region still doing Nodular(ductile) iron and it is a very strong material, the old ASME A396 could have a tensile strength of up to 120,000 and a yield strength of 90,000;that is its yield strength was twice as much as the tensile strength a really good cast iron. Great material if you can get it(poured). Worcester makes it a small world, doesn't it??
Best, George</HTML>
Re: Ductile iron for cylinder blocks
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2002 06:14PM
<HTML>After 11 years of grinding crankshafts, I have noticed crankshafts in automobiles are not ductile iron. They are just an average quality iron and will fracture like any other iron, I have broken several and some on purpose. For high strength applications such as diesels and racing engines, forged steel is used. There are some cast steel crankshafts running around but they are uncommon compaired to the cast iron and forged steel types.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Ductile iron for cylinder blocks
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2002 07:45PM
<HTML>Hi
I know it's a long way to New Zealand from the United States but Colonial Iron works
[www.actrix.gen.nz]
cast in SG and could organise having your pattern poured or if necessary make the patterns. Ken and Andre the firm's owners are good people.
I have no interest in the firm, just a member of the same steam society.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
I know it's a long way to New Zealand from the United States but Colonial Iron works
[www.actrix.gen.nz]
cast in SG and could organise having your pattern poured or if necessary make the patterns. Ken and Andre the firm's owners are good people.
I have no interest in the firm, just a member of the same steam society.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: Ductile iron for cylinder blocks
Posted by: Mike Clark (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2002 08:14PM
<HTML>
I completely agree with you David that flexing of the frame is a major factor, made worse in the dry engine by lack of the extra bulkhead in front of the crosshead. I have now put a pair of clamps onto the frame rods in front of the crosshead to take some of the spreading forces. However I am sure a stronger block will also help, possibly mainly by making the frame rods break instead! I hear that you have tried welding plates to the frame rods to improve the torsional rigidity - is that when your frame rods broke?
I'll send a picture of the cracked block lugs to the website and you will see that they are a textbook case of poor design and quality control in machining. The lugs on the 3 5/8ths x 5 inch 20hp blocks are actually thinner than on the Model 60 ten hp so Stanley learned from their experience. The machining of the nut side of the lug was obviously done with a four inch diameter side and face cutter making sharp 90 degree cut with no radius. The cut even went into the side of the cylinder - very nasty!
It wasn't really possible to tell much from the face of the fracture except that it had been there some time - not all a new crack. I actually had one block break on the car but the second from my spare engine showed cracks on all four lugs when magnafluxed. This second block has been ground out and gas fusion welded. I took a lot of care to leave better filet radiuses and more metal in place and so far after 300 miles it hasn't gone bang.
I do intend to repair the broken block in the interests of keeping antique components going but to be practical am also looking at making a new block - hence the interest in SG iron. It can be cast in the UK.
Mike</HTML>
I completely agree with you David that flexing of the frame is a major factor, made worse in the dry engine by lack of the extra bulkhead in front of the crosshead. I have now put a pair of clamps onto the frame rods in front of the crosshead to take some of the spreading forces. However I am sure a stronger block will also help, possibly mainly by making the frame rods break instead! I hear that you have tried welding plates to the frame rods to improve the torsional rigidity - is that when your frame rods broke?
I'll send a picture of the cracked block lugs to the website and you will see that they are a textbook case of poor design and quality control in machining. The lugs on the 3 5/8ths x 5 inch 20hp blocks are actually thinner than on the Model 60 ten hp so Stanley learned from their experience. The machining of the nut side of the lug was obviously done with a four inch diameter side and face cutter making sharp 90 degree cut with no radius. The cut even went into the side of the cylinder - very nasty!
It wasn't really possible to tell much from the face of the fracture except that it had been there some time - not all a new crack. I actually had one block break on the car but the second from my spare engine showed cracks on all four lugs when magnafluxed. This second block has been ground out and gas fusion welded. I took a lot of care to leave better filet radiuses and more metal in place and so far after 300 miles it hasn't gone bang.
I do intend to repair the broken block in the interests of keeping antique components going but to be practical am also looking at making a new block - hence the interest in SG iron. It can be cast in the UK.
Mike</HTML>
Re: Ductile iron for cylinder blocks
Posted by: Brian Drake (IP Logged)
Date: August 20, 2002 08:05AM
<HTML>I don't know what it might cost, but you could always talk to the folks profiled in this Wired article as they do custom metallurgical design work.
[www.wired.com]
The company's website is located at: [www.questek.com];
[www.wired.com]
The company's website is located at: [www.questek.com];
Re: Ductile iron for cylinder blocks
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: August 28, 2002 05:10AM
<HTML>Ductile iron billet is available from McMaster-Carr. Available shapes in Catalog 105 are rounds and rectangles, many sizes. Prices are barely higher than cast iron billet in same size.
Peter</HTML>
Peter</HTML>
Re: Ductile iron for cylinder blocks
Posted by: george sosin (IP Logged)
Date: March 30, 2004 03:23PM
<HTML>Hello,
I am a teacher of English in a French Institute of Technology dealing with Heating and Air Conditioning.
Could you please give me some information about web sites where I could possibly find more information about the above subjects as well as British companies dealing with heating installations.
Thank you in advance</HTML>
I am a teacher of English in a French Institute of Technology dealing with Heating and Air Conditioning.
Could you please give me some information about web sites where I could possibly find more information about the above subjects as well as British companies dealing with heating installations.
Thank you in advance</HTML>
Re: Ductile iron ladle design
Posted by: D.Srinivaslu (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2005 11:57AM
<HTML>Author:d.srinivaslu
Date:09-17-2005 17.30
Hello,
I am Foundry Manager at Samkrg Pistons and Rings Limited dealing with Gray and Ductile Iron castings.Could you give me some infomation about websityes dealing with ladle design for Ductile Iron.
Thank you in advance</HTML>
Date:09-17-2005 17.30
Hello,
I am Foundry Manager at Samkrg Pistons and Rings Limited dealing with Gray and Ductile Iron castings.Could you give me some infomation about websityes dealing with ladle design for Ductile Iron.
Thank you in advance</HTML>
Re: Ductile iron ladle design
Posted by: D.Srinivaslu (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2005 11:57AM
<HTML>Author:d.srinivaslu
Date:09-17-2005 17.30
Hello,
I am Foundry Manager at Samkrg Pistons and Rings Limited dealing with Gray and Ductile Iron castings.Could you give me some infomation about websityes dealing with ladle design for Ductile Iron.
Thank you in advance</HTML>
Date:09-17-2005 17.30
Hello,
I am Foundry Manager at Samkrg Pistons and Rings Limited dealing with Gray and Ductile Iron castings.Could you give me some infomation about websityes dealing with ladle design for Ductile Iron.
Thank you in advance</HTML>
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.