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New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: William L. Petitjean, P.E. (IP Logged)
Date: August 23, 2002 06:32PM
<HTML>While my hot head steam engine may be slightly out in left field, I actually do work in the real world now and then.
About nine months ago a client asked me to recommend a steam cylinder oil they could use in their 20 ton theme park locomotive. I thought about the matter for some time, checked around a little bit and concluded there really is no oil I can recommend any more.
So, I decided to research my files and the old specifications, hunt down the best possible components and go into the specialty oil blending business. The result is Green Velvet Steam Cylinder Oil in three grades for all types of non-condensing engines.
I use only pure Pennsylvania grade base stocks from the old Bradford refinery in Pennsylvania (they are the last refinery in the U.S. that refines Pennsylvania paraffinic crudes oils exclusively). I found a Midwest Supplier of an excellent tallow product that contains virtually no free fatty acids (they have supplied cylinder oil blenders for over 100 years). Additionally, I add a little modern touch by introducing Polybutene, a tackifier agent, into the compounding to give the oil more tenacity, hydrophobia and to stabilize the tallow emulsion and improve the lubricity of the blend (I am almost certain Exxon puts Polybutene into their Cylesstic products).
So far users love the oil and it performs just like the oils Grandpa used to keep his engines running smooth and quiet. My new motto follows: "If it has a piston pushed by steam - it needs Green Velvet!" It looks like steam cylinder oil, smells like steam cylinder oil and pours like steam cylinder oil.
I have four basic advantages over the major oil companies. First, I blend and package in 1 quart bottles, half gallon bottles, one gallon bottles, 5 gallon pails and 55 gallon drums. I have a size for every need from the model guys to the big tourist railroads and I will UPS ship them anywhere (except the 55 gallon drums - they go truck freight).
Second, I tell everyone what is in my oil. The major oil companies will not do that. They are actually making gear oils that they claim are applicable to steam engines, but in reality their blends are all compliant with the American Gear Manufacturer's specifications. This means many of them put additive packages in that contain oxygen inhibitors, rust inhibitors, anti-wear additives, etc. These are low flashpoint chemicals that tend to come out as "goo" in hot steam cylinders. Furthermore, steam cylinders do not recirculate lubricants like gearboxes and, therefore do not need these additives. Green Velvet is a simple oil and I guarantee my components and formulations will not change unless I change the Formula designation number as well. With Green Vevlet you know what you are getting all the time
Third, I am trying to get into this business. Many of the major oil companies are trying to get out. I just learned that Exxon is discontinuing their Cylesstic TK1500. The high pressure/temperature guys are going to have to find a replacement sooner of later. I will blend an oil like the TK1500 if there is enough interest. Many of the old oils have been discontinued. Your favorite oil is probably next!
Finally, I will custom blend anything you want if it uses my preferred base stocks and additives! I have corresponded with David Nergaard a little about crankcase oils that are compounded, simple gear oils that won't attack copper alloys, and steam cylinder oils that have no tallow and will separate completely in condensers and hotwells. I am looking for any application that requires a simple, non-additive oil and I would love to hear from the steam car fraternity about what your needs are and how we can find some formulations that will fit the broadest range of steam car owners.
I will email or U.S. mail my literature and pricing to anyone who is interested. Drop me an email or call 425-222-6781.
Bill Petitjean</HTML>
About nine months ago a client asked me to recommend a steam cylinder oil they could use in their 20 ton theme park locomotive. I thought about the matter for some time, checked around a little bit and concluded there really is no oil I can recommend any more.
So, I decided to research my files and the old specifications, hunt down the best possible components and go into the specialty oil blending business. The result is Green Velvet Steam Cylinder Oil in three grades for all types of non-condensing engines.
I use only pure Pennsylvania grade base stocks from the old Bradford refinery in Pennsylvania (they are the last refinery in the U.S. that refines Pennsylvania paraffinic crudes oils exclusively). I found a Midwest Supplier of an excellent tallow product that contains virtually no free fatty acids (they have supplied cylinder oil blenders for over 100 years). Additionally, I add a little modern touch by introducing Polybutene, a tackifier agent, into the compounding to give the oil more tenacity, hydrophobia and to stabilize the tallow emulsion and improve the lubricity of the blend (I am almost certain Exxon puts Polybutene into their Cylesstic products).
So far users love the oil and it performs just like the oils Grandpa used to keep his engines running smooth and quiet. My new motto follows: "If it has a piston pushed by steam - it needs Green Velvet!" It looks like steam cylinder oil, smells like steam cylinder oil and pours like steam cylinder oil.
I have four basic advantages over the major oil companies. First, I blend and package in 1 quart bottles, half gallon bottles, one gallon bottles, 5 gallon pails and 55 gallon drums. I have a size for every need from the model guys to the big tourist railroads and I will UPS ship them anywhere (except the 55 gallon drums - they go truck freight).
Second, I tell everyone what is in my oil. The major oil companies will not do that. They are actually making gear oils that they claim are applicable to steam engines, but in reality their blends are all compliant with the American Gear Manufacturer's specifications. This means many of them put additive packages in that contain oxygen inhibitors, rust inhibitors, anti-wear additives, etc. These are low flashpoint chemicals that tend to come out as "goo" in hot steam cylinders. Furthermore, steam cylinders do not recirculate lubricants like gearboxes and, therefore do not need these additives. Green Velvet is a simple oil and I guarantee my components and formulations will not change unless I change the Formula designation number as well. With Green Vevlet you know what you are getting all the time
Third, I am trying to get into this business. Many of the major oil companies are trying to get out. I just learned that Exxon is discontinuing their Cylesstic TK1500. The high pressure/temperature guys are going to have to find a replacement sooner of later. I will blend an oil like the TK1500 if there is enough interest. Many of the old oils have been discontinued. Your favorite oil is probably next!
Finally, I will custom blend anything you want if it uses my preferred base stocks and additives! I have corresponded with David Nergaard a little about crankcase oils that are compounded, simple gear oils that won't attack copper alloys, and steam cylinder oils that have no tallow and will separate completely in condensers and hotwells. I am looking for any application that requires a simple, non-additive oil and I would love to hear from the steam car fraternity about what your needs are and how we can find some formulations that will fit the broadest range of steam car owners.
I will email or U.S. mail my literature and pricing to anyone who is interested. Drop me an email or call 425-222-6781.
Bill Petitjean</HTML>
Re: New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: August 24, 2002 01:58PM
<HTML>Bill,
Let us see the specifications for this oil, particularly the highest temperature it will work at. Please post it because many will be very interested in it.
Personally I need oil that will survive at 750°F for the Doble. Carbon buildup in the transition zone between the saturate and superheat sections of the Doble boiler, also in the superheater of course, is a real maintenance problem with these cars.
Also, one that separates from water, so it can be flushed out from the water tank.
Dobles used to run Haughton's Superheat Steam Cylinder Oil #80, now no longer available, the field went dry. A good substitute for it is Mobile Super Extra Hecla Superheat Steam Cylinder Oil, available also as mineral base as well as the petroleum base. Both were/are 600 weight.
Some of the users are suggesting MOBILE ONE synthetic gear oil, 140 weight.
If you have a good oil that will survive, I certainly would order a supply.
You may find you have a good business opportunity here if the oil will work at high temperatures.
Good luck.
Jim</HTML>
Let us see the specifications for this oil, particularly the highest temperature it will work at. Please post it because many will be very interested in it.
Personally I need oil that will survive at 750°F for the Doble. Carbon buildup in the transition zone between the saturate and superheat sections of the Doble boiler, also in the superheater of course, is a real maintenance problem with these cars.
Also, one that separates from water, so it can be flushed out from the water tank.
Dobles used to run Haughton's Superheat Steam Cylinder Oil #80, now no longer available, the field went dry. A good substitute for it is Mobile Super Extra Hecla Superheat Steam Cylinder Oil, available also as mineral base as well as the petroleum base. Both were/are 600 weight.
Some of the users are suggesting MOBILE ONE synthetic gear oil, 140 weight.
If you have a good oil that will survive, I certainly would order a supply.
You may find you have a good business opportunity here if the oil will work at high temperatures.
Good luck.
Jim</HTML>
Re: New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: August 24, 2002 05:52PM
<HTML>Bill,
Just a point as you have just joined this wonderful discussion forum in the last three weeks. Up to this point I do not believe anyone has advertised or tried to sell a product using this forum---it has been solely for discussion purposes. I know John Woodson allows, under the LINKS page, people free advertising space for their products and services. I may be very off base on this but would not like the forum to become a place where we all try and sell our products for renumeration. I may be very off base on this and am sure others will tell me if this is true, especially John!!
Maybe just a long and crabby day today of volunteering for "Old Home Day" for me.
Best, George</HTML>
Just a point as you have just joined this wonderful discussion forum in the last three weeks. Up to this point I do not believe anyone has advertised or tried to sell a product using this forum---it has been solely for discussion purposes. I know John Woodson allows, under the LINKS page, people free advertising space for their products and services. I may be very off base on this but would not like the forum to become a place where we all try and sell our products for renumeration. I may be very off base on this and am sure others will tell me if this is true, especially John!!
Maybe just a long and crabby day today of volunteering for "Old Home Day" for me.
Best, George</HTML>
Re: New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: August 25, 2002 12:10AM
<HTML>Now George, don't get all crabby. :) Personally, I don't mind seeing a little "plugola" here and there, as long as it is technically informative and on the level. Now if people start posting 50 page multi-level-marketing sales brochures peppered with "NEW!" and "FREE!", like some forums I have seen, it might be time for John to do the webmaster deus ex machina thing.
Peter</HTML>
Peter</HTML>
Re: New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: William L. Petitjean, P.E. (IP Logged)
Date: August 25, 2002 03:50AM
<HTML>I am sorry if I overstepped the intent of the forum with my shameless plug.
I emailed John about putting some of my literature up on the website, which he may do if I can get him files that he doesn't have to clean up too much. He replied he thought the subject would be great for discussion on the forum.
I also didn't go into too much detail and figured those who are interested can email me back channel to get all the straight dope on the specifications, etc.
Having said this, I hope I am forgiven. I would like to hear from steam car owners about their lubrication travails. David Nergaard corresponded about some of his concerns. If everyone who has trouble finding the right lubricant chimes in we may be able to arrive at some common specifications that send me in the right direction. In this regard there have been some comments about cylinder oil plugging up condenser tubes. Is this a big problem? David Nergaard likes the now discontinued Exxon Cylesstic TK1500. This oil almost certainly has Polybutene in it, which I put in my oil too. Polybutene seems to put a "sheen" on piston rods. Does TK1500 adversely affect condenser heat transfer coefficients by putting an insulating layer on tubes?
I certainly did not want to go into the lube oil blending business. But, the situation has deteriorated to the point where there in no place to turn for simple lubricants that once were commonly available. I got my ears boxed on cylinder oils at Skinner Engine Company over 20 years ago and have been collecting information on it ever since. I figured I could put something together that will help the heritage and recreation steam industry move on into the future.
I do plan to make some money at the oil biz, but am still waiting for my hot head engine to really make it big. Maybe I should get a life and just head for the nearest casino where my odds are better!</HTML>
I emailed John about putting some of my literature up on the website, which he may do if I can get him files that he doesn't have to clean up too much. He replied he thought the subject would be great for discussion on the forum.
I also didn't go into too much detail and figured those who are interested can email me back channel to get all the straight dope on the specifications, etc.
Having said this, I hope I am forgiven. I would like to hear from steam car owners about their lubrication travails. David Nergaard corresponded about some of his concerns. If everyone who has trouble finding the right lubricant chimes in we may be able to arrive at some common specifications that send me in the right direction. In this regard there have been some comments about cylinder oil plugging up condenser tubes. Is this a big problem? David Nergaard likes the now discontinued Exxon Cylesstic TK1500. This oil almost certainly has Polybutene in it, which I put in my oil too. Polybutene seems to put a "sheen" on piston rods. Does TK1500 adversely affect condenser heat transfer coefficients by putting an insulating layer on tubes?
I certainly did not want to go into the lube oil blending business. But, the situation has deteriorated to the point where there in no place to turn for simple lubricants that once were commonly available. I got my ears boxed on cylinder oils at Skinner Engine Company over 20 years ago and have been collecting information on it ever since. I figured I could put something together that will help the heritage and recreation steam industry move on into the future.
I do plan to make some money at the oil biz, but am still waiting for my hot head engine to really make it big. Maybe I should get a life and just head for the nearest casino where my odds are better!</HTML>
Re: New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: William L. Petitjean, P.E. (IP Logged)
Date: August 25, 2002 04:32AM
<HTML>Hi Jim:
I missed your reply and answered George's concerns first. I am not familiar with Haugton's cylinder oil, but do have old specifications for Mobil Extra Hecla Super Cylinder Oil Mineral. Below is a comparison with Green Velvet Sapon-A-Min. This is a high viscosity, high flash cylinder oil intended for superheat applications and I have tried very hard to produce an oil that will hold up to high temperature conditions.
Extra Hecla Super viscosity in Cst @ 100 deg C. = 47.3
Sapon-A-Min viscosity in Cst @ 100 deg. C. = 52
Extra Hecla Super flash point in deg F. C.O.C. = 590
Sapon-A-Min flash point in deg. F. C.O.C. = 600
Extra Hecla Super Conradson Carbon Residue % = ?
Sapon-A-Min Conradson Carbon Residue % = 1.8
Very few companies publish the Conradson Carbon number anymore. I think the reason is the additives put in to make better gear oils will raise the carbon residue number and gearboxes do not care because they never see really high temperatures (if they do they are scrap). I worry about carbon residue a lot and have worked hard to keep this number as low as possible. Even so I am not as low as some of the old oils, but am not smart enough to know what they did to keep it down.
My oils are based on the Skinner Engine Company's generic cylinder oil recommendations. Skinner did not successfully use any steam temperatures over 680 deg. F. But, their large unaflow steam engines ran very hot at the head ends. Most counterflow engines running up around 750 deg. F approximate the same conditions found in a unaflow at much lower superheat temperatures because of cooler exhaust washing the ports.
If anyone would like to send me a sample of the their current oil I will test it for viscosity, flash and carbon residue. Thus, we will have a standard basis for comparison. I cannot determine additives though. The carbon residue test may help determine how much "garbage" has been put in the base oil to make it a better gear oil/worse cylinder oil. I can quote the cost for doing this to anyone who is interested.
The Sapon-A-Min has about 2.5% tallow added for saponification during wet conditions during start up and light loads. This is in combination with Polybutene, a tackiness agent which I am sure Exxon uses in their TK1500. TK1500 is very high viscosity, but only has a flash point of 595 deg. F. David Nergaard likes it, but I am not sure it is optimal. It does seem to separate well from the condensate. Sapon-A-Min could easily be mixed without the tallow - I would then call it Demuls-A-Max. It would separate out just as easily as the proven TK1500. Tallow can form deposits in engines, but it has a 600 deg. F flash point. It is not as wimpy as you might expect. The separation issue is based on how stable the tallow/polybutene emulsion is. It is probably too stable for sensitive high pressure boilers and cannot be reduced to acceptable levels in the feedwater.
This is a complicated subject and there are so many different operating conditions it is almost impossible to make hard and fast rules. This is why I don't try to shove 55 gallon drums down peoples' throats at this time. Any one can buy 1 quart, 1/2 gallon, 1 gallon or 5 gallons to try. I really appreciate the feedback. Also, I love old specifications. If you have an old Haughton's specification I would appreciate a copy. Also, where did their base oils come from?
If what I am making now doesn't work I can custom blend within limits. Let me know your needs.
In conclusion, I would pit Sapon-A-Min against the Mobil Extra Hecla Super Mineral any day. Furthermore, Skinner finally would not endorse any cylinder oil from major oil companies because they could not trust them. They would only recommend Sharvania of Memphis, Tennessee. Of course Sharvania went out of business a long time ago. The Mobil One oil will probably work even though these synthetics are actually poor lubricants. But it is very expensive and its characteristics are intended for gears. Again, this is a compromise that probably will show up some drawbacks in steam cylinder service. Also the viscosity is too low for really high pressure engines.
I hope this is helpful and doesn't contain too much plugola.
Bill Petitjean</HTML>
I missed your reply and answered George's concerns first. I am not familiar with Haugton's cylinder oil, but do have old specifications for Mobil Extra Hecla Super Cylinder Oil Mineral. Below is a comparison with Green Velvet Sapon-A-Min. This is a high viscosity, high flash cylinder oil intended for superheat applications and I have tried very hard to produce an oil that will hold up to high temperature conditions.
Extra Hecla Super viscosity in Cst @ 100 deg C. = 47.3
Sapon-A-Min viscosity in Cst @ 100 deg. C. = 52
Extra Hecla Super flash point in deg F. C.O.C. = 590
Sapon-A-Min flash point in deg. F. C.O.C. = 600
Extra Hecla Super Conradson Carbon Residue % = ?
Sapon-A-Min Conradson Carbon Residue % = 1.8
Very few companies publish the Conradson Carbon number anymore. I think the reason is the additives put in to make better gear oils will raise the carbon residue number and gearboxes do not care because they never see really high temperatures (if they do they are scrap). I worry about carbon residue a lot and have worked hard to keep this number as low as possible. Even so I am not as low as some of the old oils, but am not smart enough to know what they did to keep it down.
My oils are based on the Skinner Engine Company's generic cylinder oil recommendations. Skinner did not successfully use any steam temperatures over 680 deg. F. But, their large unaflow steam engines ran very hot at the head ends. Most counterflow engines running up around 750 deg. F approximate the same conditions found in a unaflow at much lower superheat temperatures because of cooler exhaust washing the ports.
If anyone would like to send me a sample of the their current oil I will test it for viscosity, flash and carbon residue. Thus, we will have a standard basis for comparison. I cannot determine additives though. The carbon residue test may help determine how much "garbage" has been put in the base oil to make it a better gear oil/worse cylinder oil. I can quote the cost for doing this to anyone who is interested.
The Sapon-A-Min has about 2.5% tallow added for saponification during wet conditions during start up and light loads. This is in combination with Polybutene, a tackiness agent which I am sure Exxon uses in their TK1500. TK1500 is very high viscosity, but only has a flash point of 595 deg. F. David Nergaard likes it, but I am not sure it is optimal. It does seem to separate well from the condensate. Sapon-A-Min could easily be mixed without the tallow - I would then call it Demuls-A-Max. It would separate out just as easily as the proven TK1500. Tallow can form deposits in engines, but it has a 600 deg. F flash point. It is not as wimpy as you might expect. The separation issue is based on how stable the tallow/polybutene emulsion is. It is probably too stable for sensitive high pressure boilers and cannot be reduced to acceptable levels in the feedwater.
This is a complicated subject and there are so many different operating conditions it is almost impossible to make hard and fast rules. This is why I don't try to shove 55 gallon drums down peoples' throats at this time. Any one can buy 1 quart, 1/2 gallon, 1 gallon or 5 gallons to try. I really appreciate the feedback. Also, I love old specifications. If you have an old Haughton's specification I would appreciate a copy. Also, where did their base oils come from?
If what I am making now doesn't work I can custom blend within limits. Let me know your needs.
In conclusion, I would pit Sapon-A-Min against the Mobil Extra Hecla Super Mineral any day. Furthermore, Skinner finally would not endorse any cylinder oil from major oil companies because they could not trust them. They would only recommend Sharvania of Memphis, Tennessee. Of course Sharvania went out of business a long time ago. The Mobil One oil will probably work even though these synthetics are actually poor lubricants. But it is very expensive and its characteristics are intended for gears. Again, this is a compromise that probably will show up some drawbacks in steam cylinder service. Also the viscosity is too low for really high pressure engines.
I hope this is helpful and doesn't contain too much plugola.
Bill Petitjean</HTML>
Re: New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: August 25, 2002 10:20AM
<HTML>Bill,
Thanks for your kind reply. I will see if Jerry Hackett will respond with his knowledge of and use of the synthetic Mobile One oil, he pushes his slide valve Stanley very hard and the oil has worked beautifully. He has been in personal contact with John Dabbs and some of the other engineers in the Oak Ridge group that form the Mobile Steam Society and their experiments with it have been very good. Jerry stated that Peter Barrett has been using it for many years with very high temperatures in his poppet valve engine and that when no oxygen is present has survived 1200F temporary steam temperatures. An additional advantage of synthetic Mobil One is its great ability to quickly separate from water. When Jerry first boiled out his boiler with water based brake part cleaner the amount of gunk and crap that came off the crown sheet was considerable---when he repeated this a few months ago, after using the synthetic, virtually no gunk or goop was present in the boiler drainings. Another oil to pursue is the pure "Duralube" additive. I ran some tests on it, albeit rather crude, and it is attracted to hotter surfaces and does on a moleculer level adhere to metal surfaces---if it is burned turns into a dry lubricating powder! Searched out the company that makes it for Duralube a few years ago and talked directly to the head chemist. He was very convincing on its unique qualities and told me about its ability to form a dry lubricating powder if burned, I did try this myself. This is no old fashioned oleic acid additive like in the "old" days. May the search for the ideal oil, or even better an oil free engine continue.
Best, George</HTML>
Thanks for your kind reply. I will see if Jerry Hackett will respond with his knowledge of and use of the synthetic Mobile One oil, he pushes his slide valve Stanley very hard and the oil has worked beautifully. He has been in personal contact with John Dabbs and some of the other engineers in the Oak Ridge group that form the Mobile Steam Society and their experiments with it have been very good. Jerry stated that Peter Barrett has been using it for many years with very high temperatures in his poppet valve engine and that when no oxygen is present has survived 1200F temporary steam temperatures. An additional advantage of synthetic Mobil One is its great ability to quickly separate from water. When Jerry first boiled out his boiler with water based brake part cleaner the amount of gunk and crap that came off the crown sheet was considerable---when he repeated this a few months ago, after using the synthetic, virtually no gunk or goop was present in the boiler drainings. Another oil to pursue is the pure "Duralube" additive. I ran some tests on it, albeit rather crude, and it is attracted to hotter surfaces and does on a moleculer level adhere to metal surfaces---if it is burned turns into a dry lubricating powder! Searched out the company that makes it for Duralube a few years ago and talked directly to the head chemist. He was very convincing on its unique qualities and told me about its ability to form a dry lubricating powder if burned, I did try this myself. This is no old fashioned oleic acid additive like in the "old" days. May the search for the ideal oil, or even better an oil free engine continue.
Best, George</HTML>
Re: New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: ronald parola (IP Logged)
Date: August 25, 2002 04:34PM
<HTML>I've been using the Hecla cylinder oil with no problems, lube wise, however separation in a condensing car is a problem. Even with 2 separators some oil still gets to the boiler, so something easier would help out. Carbon build up is noticable in the ports but does't seem to be too much of a issue for me. I've been using conventional and synthetic gear oil (50/50) in the crankcase, no problems and can't say that there has been any wasting of any copper parts. How well does the mobile 1 work in the cylinders? any drawbacks? And I don't mind the plugs, he is asking for help/ feedback, you can't really do that in a ad. Ron P</HTML>
Re: New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: Terry Williams (IP Logged)
Date: August 25, 2002 05:14PM
<HTML>George, do you know if Jerry Hackett is using regular Moble One or some of the batch that was made up some years ago just for high temperature steam use? Pete Barrett was using some of this but it may be all gone now.</HTML>
Re: New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: August 25, 2002 06:52PM
<HTML>Terry
Jerry and I am using Mobil SHC 634 Synthetic Gear & Bearing oil ISO 460
Be carefull they make the same number oil in a non Synthetic.
I am not sure how good it is for the engine, but there is no sigh of it in the boiler.</HTML>
Jerry and I am using Mobil SHC 634 Synthetic Gear & Bearing oil ISO 460
Be carefull they make the same number oil in a non Synthetic.
I am not sure how good it is for the engine, but there is no sigh of it in the boiler.</HTML>
Re: New Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: August 26, 2002 02:31AM
<HTML>William,
I have to question your statement that "these synthetics are actually poor lubricants". Synthetic oils have properties that are engineered into the molecule, a feature not available in the old fashioned goo comonly used for steam vehicles. The goos are composed of many different molecules, all reacting differently in operation and many of them breaking down and causing impurities in the remaining oil. There is no need for heavy oils to get great protection when using synthetic oils because viscosity stabilizers are not needed. Stabilizers are one of the first additatives to boil off with elevated temperatures. The synthetics have proven to be slightly superior in lubrication qualities than the best organic/mineral oils especially when used with elevated temperatures and in applications that might sheer the molecule. I believe more effort should be spent on the development of more suitable light synthetic oils for use with steam and this involves the abandonment of the traditional goo and looking foward.
Peter Heid</HTML>
I have to question your statement that "these synthetics are actually poor lubricants". Synthetic oils have properties that are engineered into the molecule, a feature not available in the old fashioned goo comonly used for steam vehicles. The goos are composed of many different molecules, all reacting differently in operation and many of them breaking down and causing impurities in the remaining oil. There is no need for heavy oils to get great protection when using synthetic oils because viscosity stabilizers are not needed. Stabilizers are one of the first additatives to boil off with elevated temperatures. The synthetics have proven to be slightly superior in lubrication qualities than the best organic/mineral oils especially when used with elevated temperatures and in applications that might sheer the molecule. I believe more effort should be spent on the development of more suitable light synthetic oils for use with steam and this involves the abandonment of the traditional goo and looking foward.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: New Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: August 26, 2002 02:40AM
<HTML>Home experimenters working on gas turbines, pulse combustion and pulse detonation engines recommend Amsoil Synthetics over the Exxon & Mobil products for the extreme temperatures and high thrust conditions. I believe Amsoil claims to be the first to produce a comerical synthetic oil and as a small company they will possably work with you on development. They were the first to produce a 100:1 synthetic 2 stroke cycle oil.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: New Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: William L. Petitjean, P.E. (IP Logged)
Date: August 27, 2002 12:18PM
<HTML>Thank you for all the good input. I especially appreciate the heads up on the Duralube and the Amsoil recommendations.
My initial conclusion is that there are a whole bunch of diverse solutions to the lubrication problem by individuals doing their own thing. While this works in practice, it does not help the steam car fraternity deal with any particular supplier in a cooperative manner. In other words, in unity there is strength. If all 700 or so?? steam car owners pooled their buying power they could work toward some common standards, hunt down a blender who recognizes this buying power and make it worth his while to supply their needs.
That is what I am all about. But, before I flood this forum with plugola and get filthy rich (just kidding) I must work with as many people as possible to understand the needs and then develop some standards that are acceptable to the widest range of car operators. This forum and other channels are a great way to do this.
I agree with Peter that the synthetics avenue is the best route to go, but this will require a lot of work that is hard to justify for a start up who has to commit a lot of resources just to set up for the best available petroleum base stocks. Nonetheless, Duralube and Amsoil sound like they are small enough that they will work with a pipsqueak like me. Most oil companies won't even talk with me. ARG in Bradford, Pennsylvania are wonderful exceptions to this rule. They will sell me one barrel of just about anything -- and they are gracious and helpful while they are filling the tiny order. This relationship is very, very important because, in my mind, they probably produce the best high viscosity paraffinic base oils for steam uses. At least, they have a full range product line that accessible in small quantities.
I need to look up my notes, but when I said synthetices are "poor lubricants" I was referring to a blender's reference to, I think, the original silicone based synthetics. These oils are more stable at high temperatures and extreme pressures than mineral oils, but they don't exhibit the same lubricity as the best equivalent mineral oils. The latest PAO synthetics have solved a lot of these earlier shortcomings and that is the direction I will head. After all, if the synthetics are so much better than mineral oils why haven't they completely replaced the mineral oils? The reason is their improved properties are not an order of magnitude better than the cheaper mineral oils. Therefore, they cannot completely justify their order of magnitude higher price on the open market.
Finally, I am very interested in working with the steam car fraternity, but there are literally thousands of recreational steam engine owners and operators. Most of them work at low pressures and temperatures. My focus is to blend and supply their needs. Outside of the steam car fraternity there are almost no high pressure/temperature operators. This limits my offering at this time to ARG Bright Stock based blends. By using ARG intermediate resin as a viscosity builder (630 degrees F. flash point) I can make up any viscosity you desire. I can supply straight mineral or a compounded grade. By adding some Polybutene I can "attach" little "balloons" to the oil so it will almost jump out of the hotwell tanks like a fish jumping for flies.
All of this may not be looking to the future as Peter mentioned, but it establishes a solid floor that we can use for a base to launch improved synthetics that are blended specifically for steam car use not too far down the road.</HTML>
My initial conclusion is that there are a whole bunch of diverse solutions to the lubrication problem by individuals doing their own thing. While this works in practice, it does not help the steam car fraternity deal with any particular supplier in a cooperative manner. In other words, in unity there is strength. If all 700 or so?? steam car owners pooled their buying power they could work toward some common standards, hunt down a blender who recognizes this buying power and make it worth his while to supply their needs.
That is what I am all about. But, before I flood this forum with plugola and get filthy rich (just kidding) I must work with as many people as possible to understand the needs and then develop some standards that are acceptable to the widest range of car operators. This forum and other channels are a great way to do this.
I agree with Peter that the synthetics avenue is the best route to go, but this will require a lot of work that is hard to justify for a start up who has to commit a lot of resources just to set up for the best available petroleum base stocks. Nonetheless, Duralube and Amsoil sound like they are small enough that they will work with a pipsqueak like me. Most oil companies won't even talk with me. ARG in Bradford, Pennsylvania are wonderful exceptions to this rule. They will sell me one barrel of just about anything -- and they are gracious and helpful while they are filling the tiny order. This relationship is very, very important because, in my mind, they probably produce the best high viscosity paraffinic base oils for steam uses. At least, they have a full range product line that accessible in small quantities.
I need to look up my notes, but when I said synthetices are "poor lubricants" I was referring to a blender's reference to, I think, the original silicone based synthetics. These oils are more stable at high temperatures and extreme pressures than mineral oils, but they don't exhibit the same lubricity as the best equivalent mineral oils. The latest PAO synthetics have solved a lot of these earlier shortcomings and that is the direction I will head. After all, if the synthetics are so much better than mineral oils why haven't they completely replaced the mineral oils? The reason is their improved properties are not an order of magnitude better than the cheaper mineral oils. Therefore, they cannot completely justify their order of magnitude higher price on the open market.
Finally, I am very interested in working with the steam car fraternity, but there are literally thousands of recreational steam engine owners and operators. Most of them work at low pressures and temperatures. My focus is to blend and supply their needs. Outside of the steam car fraternity there are almost no high pressure/temperature operators. This limits my offering at this time to ARG Bright Stock based blends. By using ARG intermediate resin as a viscosity builder (630 degrees F. flash point) I can make up any viscosity you desire. I can supply straight mineral or a compounded grade. By adding some Polybutene I can "attach" little "balloons" to the oil so it will almost jump out of the hotwell tanks like a fish jumping for flies.
All of this may not be looking to the future as Peter mentioned, but it establishes a solid floor that we can use for a base to launch improved synthetics that are blended specifically for steam car use not too far down the road.</HTML>
Re: New Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: Pat Farrell (IP Logged)
Date: August 27, 2002 02:06PM
<HTML>
I have found the most universal steam cylinder oil that is most easily found is Exxon Cylesstic TK 1000. TK 1000 is the reccomended oil for engines operating on saturated or slightly superheated steam at either high or low pressures. TK 1000 can be purchased at any Exxon bulk plant and purchased in the 55 gallon drum. It is a high quality steam cylinder and worm gear lubricant with excellent wear protection. It readily separates from condensate and it has good atomization characteristics. It's flash point is 550~F, boiling range is 610~f, and it's fire point is 640~F It is 4% compounded with acidless tallow and a tackiness agent to provide lubrication under wet conditions encounterd in saturated steam. Its pH is essentially neutral. The TK 1500 is a higher viscosity (ISO viscosity 1500) and is not compounded with the tallow and the tackiness agent. It's flash point is 595~F and it's fire point is 665~F. About a 50~F higher between the two oils. In tearing down my Stanley engines that have used the TK 1000, the tackiness agent is still clinging to the slide valves and has coated the entire inside of the engines. This initial lubrication provided by the tackiness agent has given me peace of mind, knowing that when I start from cold, the steam engine has lubrication. I also use TK 1000 in my crankcase. It does not splash out like 140 weight gear lube and it sticks to the moving parts like glue. TK 1000 has a ISO viscosity grade of 1000, hence is where it's 1000 name comes from. Yet, even with a viscosity so high, it can still seep through a loose case gasket as easily as a 30 weight oil. Our Stanley engines can sit idle all winter long and they have always been ready to roll in the spring. With TK 1000. their rings have never stuck to the cylinder walls. I believe that we should continue to support EXXON in buying their excellent TK 1000 steam cylinder oil, so they do not discontinue this steam cylinder oil, like so many others have. A 55 gallon barrel is too big? Go in with other steam buffs and share the cost.</HTML>
I have found the most universal steam cylinder oil that is most easily found is Exxon Cylesstic TK 1000. TK 1000 is the reccomended oil for engines operating on saturated or slightly superheated steam at either high or low pressures. TK 1000 can be purchased at any Exxon bulk plant and purchased in the 55 gallon drum. It is a high quality steam cylinder and worm gear lubricant with excellent wear protection. It readily separates from condensate and it has good atomization characteristics. It's flash point is 550~F, boiling range is 610~f, and it's fire point is 640~F It is 4% compounded with acidless tallow and a tackiness agent to provide lubrication under wet conditions encounterd in saturated steam. Its pH is essentially neutral. The TK 1500 is a higher viscosity (ISO viscosity 1500) and is not compounded with the tallow and the tackiness agent. It's flash point is 595~F and it's fire point is 665~F. About a 50~F higher between the two oils. In tearing down my Stanley engines that have used the TK 1000, the tackiness agent is still clinging to the slide valves and has coated the entire inside of the engines. This initial lubrication provided by the tackiness agent has given me peace of mind, knowing that when I start from cold, the steam engine has lubrication. I also use TK 1000 in my crankcase. It does not splash out like 140 weight gear lube and it sticks to the moving parts like glue. TK 1000 has a ISO viscosity grade of 1000, hence is where it's 1000 name comes from. Yet, even with a viscosity so high, it can still seep through a loose case gasket as easily as a 30 weight oil. Our Stanley engines can sit idle all winter long and they have always been ready to roll in the spring. With TK 1000. their rings have never stuck to the cylinder walls. I believe that we should continue to support EXXON in buying their excellent TK 1000 steam cylinder oil, so they do not discontinue this steam cylinder oil, like so many others have. A 55 gallon barrel is too big? Go in with other steam buffs and share the cost.</HTML>
Re: New Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: William L. Petitjean, P.E. (IP Logged)
Date: August 28, 2002 03:29AM
<HTML>Hi Pat:
I am just down the road in the Snoqualmie Valley. I would like to see some of your cars someday.
You have posted some very good info. on the Exxon Cylesstic products. David Nergaard likes the TK1500 best of all. You are the second Stanley owner who has championed the Exxon oils. They have a very nice web page at [www.essonet.nl] for those who want to read more about it.
I am curious about your statement that the TK1000 compounded oil separates easily from condensate. The Exxon literature states the tackiness agent does "....provide better separation from exhaust steam." I have suspected this even though there may be tallow mixed with the base oil. It sounds like your experience confirms this. My experience confirms that the tackiness agent (polybutene) does exactly as you say it does - it clings to the rubbing surfaces and creates a stubborn sheen that helps lubricate the parts no matter what. I know all about the polybutenes too, because that is a component of my compounding for the very same reasons Exxon states. In any case your report is encouraging and polybutene should be a component in any modern steam cylinder oil.
By all means buy the Exxon product because it is cheaper than my oil and probably always will be. If you can't quite use 55 gallons in the engine it will probably slick your hair down nicely so it won't fly away in the older open cars. That way you can use more of it. If you need quite a bit less you can buy the equivalent Sapon-A-Max in as small a quantity as 1 quart.
I have heard the TK1500 is being discontinued. I am trying to confirm this. I have not heard if TK1000 is endangered or not. While it is a good idea to concentrate all buying on the Cylesstic products it is important to note that the bare minimum blending quantity for oils like this is around 3,000 gallons. I doubt that if all the steam car people in the world bought two extra barrels you could even show up on the big boy's radar screen. My guess is that long term reliance on the major oil industry to supply a small fraternity's oil needs is a futile gesture.
Despite my pessimism, Exxon does have a nice website on the Cylesstic products. That makes things a little more optimistic, although its last print date is Oct. 1999.
Bill Petitjean</HTML>
I am just down the road in the Snoqualmie Valley. I would like to see some of your cars someday.
You have posted some very good info. on the Exxon Cylesstic products. David Nergaard likes the TK1500 best of all. You are the second Stanley owner who has championed the Exxon oils. They have a very nice web page at [www.essonet.nl] for those who want to read more about it.
I am curious about your statement that the TK1000 compounded oil separates easily from condensate. The Exxon literature states the tackiness agent does "....provide better separation from exhaust steam." I have suspected this even though there may be tallow mixed with the base oil. It sounds like your experience confirms this. My experience confirms that the tackiness agent (polybutene) does exactly as you say it does - it clings to the rubbing surfaces and creates a stubborn sheen that helps lubricate the parts no matter what. I know all about the polybutenes too, because that is a component of my compounding for the very same reasons Exxon states. In any case your report is encouraging and polybutene should be a component in any modern steam cylinder oil.
By all means buy the Exxon product because it is cheaper than my oil and probably always will be. If you can't quite use 55 gallons in the engine it will probably slick your hair down nicely so it won't fly away in the older open cars. That way you can use more of it. If you need quite a bit less you can buy the equivalent Sapon-A-Max in as small a quantity as 1 quart.
I have heard the TK1500 is being discontinued. I am trying to confirm this. I have not heard if TK1000 is endangered or not. While it is a good idea to concentrate all buying on the Cylesstic products it is important to note that the bare minimum blending quantity for oils like this is around 3,000 gallons. I doubt that if all the steam car people in the world bought two extra barrels you could even show up on the big boy's radar screen. My guess is that long term reliance on the major oil industry to supply a small fraternity's oil needs is a futile gesture.
Despite my pessimism, Exxon does have a nice website on the Cylesstic products. That makes things a little more optimistic, although its last print date is Oct. 1999.
Bill Petitjean</HTML>
Re: New Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: William L. Petitjean, P.E. (IP Logged)
Date: August 28, 2002 03:34AM
<HTML>Oops! the equivalent oil to Exxon Cylesstic TK1000 is Sapon-A-Min, not Sapon-A-Max. Sorry for the bloooper.
Bill Petitjean</HTML>
Bill Petitjean</HTML>
Re: New Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: August 28, 2002 04:51AM
<HTML>Pat and Bill,
Cylesstic and Green Velvet, with their tackiness additives, sound great for noncondensing cars. But do they gunk up the condensers in condensing cars? Even with an oil separator, it seems like this might happen eventually, especially with lots of light driving (cooler condenser). Avoiding condenser flushing might be an advantage of lighter oils, unless the flushing procedure with heavier oil is only needed at extremely long intervals.
Peter Barrett once noted that the 30W synthetic oil he uses goes straight through the condenser, no buildup. Doble claimed the same results with light oil in the Doble-Detroit, based on 40,000 miles of driving the prototype.
Bill, keep up the interesting and informative "plugola"! :)
Peter</HTML>
Cylesstic and Green Velvet, with their tackiness additives, sound great for noncondensing cars. But do they gunk up the condensers in condensing cars? Even with an oil separator, it seems like this might happen eventually, especially with lots of light driving (cooler condenser). Avoiding condenser flushing might be an advantage of lighter oils, unless the flushing procedure with heavier oil is only needed at extremely long intervals.
Peter Barrett once noted that the 30W synthetic oil he uses goes straight through the condenser, no buildup. Doble claimed the same results with light oil in the Doble-Detroit, based on 40,000 miles of driving the prototype.
Bill, keep up the interesting and informative "plugola"! :)
Peter</HTML>
Re: New Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: August 28, 2002 07:56PM
<HTML>It's too bad there is no new testing of existing oils in the varied conditions of the steam engine. I would be willing to bet that existing synthetics, derived for purposes other than steam, are far superior to the non-synthetic steam cylinder oils. Being mostly of a single molecule, these oils have very predictable properties in use including easier separation, exact pour points, exact points of vaporization and so forth. High vaporization point is critical for the complete separation of the oil from the steam. Synthetics are not self contaminating for the most part (weaker portions of the oil don't break down and contaminate the rest) and this will allow for the reuse of separated oils and lighter oils are easier to filter and other wise handle. In the condenser the synthetic oil is again a single molecule that exhibits very little ability to emulisfy and coat the surfaces needed for heat exchange and also provide for poor seperation.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: clemente (IP Logged)
Date: September 22, 2002 04:19PM
<HTML>Dear steam friend , Im now working on a steam motorcycle , carrying the boiler in the side-car , back of the passenger . I will use a two stroke parallel twin with the cranks at 180º and admission through a bash valve. I intend to start simple , without a condenser , and add a condenser and oil separator later . Crankshaft bearings will be sealed and connecting rod lubrication will be splashed with a suitable spoon at the connecting rod bottom end (The steam will not go into the crakcase) . The cylinder will be steel and the pistons your standard two stroke ones . Can you sell me some oil , say a gallon , for this particular cylinder/piston set ? . How much will cost sending it here to Spain ? . Do you know about customs ? . Thank you very much and keep up with the good work .</HTML>
Re: New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: clemente (IP Logged)
Date: September 24, 2002 06:58PM
<HTML>Dear steam friends , after perusing leisurely all the info you sent , and realizing that I'm severely outclassed and can't start understanding the first thing about steam lubrication and can't find adecuate oils anyway , I have decided :
FORGET LUBRIFICATION ENTIRELY
My engine will be lubricated by the same steam that makes it run .
I will start searching materials that can stand this use . And I will keep it simple , the fever parts the better , and will use IC engine parts when possible .
You'll see my motorcycle puttering soon . And it will not use any oil . So there ! .
High pressure steam to everybody and thanks .</HTML>
FORGET LUBRIFICATION ENTIRELY
My engine will be lubricated by the same steam that makes it run .
I will start searching materials that can stand this use . And I will keep it simple , the fever parts the better , and will use IC engine parts when possible .
You'll see my motorcycle puttering soon . And it will not use any oil . So there ! .
High pressure steam to everybody and thanks .</HTML>
Re: New Old Fashioned Lubricants for Steam Cars Now Available
Posted by: zarghami (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2005 09:27AM
<HTML>dear Bill
thank you for usefull artical but I would like to know if we can use polybutene as VII for engin oil 20 W 50 and SJCF4/CF or not your answer help us to save time and money
IPATCO GROUP
zarghami</HTML>
thank you for usefull artical but I would like to know if we can use polybutene as VII for engin oil 20 W 50 and SJCF4/CF or not your answer help us to save time and money
IPATCO GROUP
zarghami</HTML>
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