1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Cylinder Oil Report
Posted by: William L. Petitjean, P.E. (IP Logged)
Date: December 05, 2002 03:55AM
<HTML>Since I last posted about cylinder oils I had the pleasure of spending time with various SACA members at the Northwest Chapter's steam automobile meet in Monroe, Washington last Fall (September I believe). I gave out some of my literature and got a good look at and feel for the various Stanley's, White's and Locomobiles in attendance. I was Susan Davis' navigator on the trip up to Big 4 Resort and had a ball riding with her in the Stanley Museum's 1909 Stanley all day on that trip. I gave away my locomotive roots by suggesting she get a trailer and set it up as a tender so she doesn't have to take water so often.
My conclusions are that non-condensing cars should do fine with the Green Velvet Sapon-A-Min ISO1000 cylinder oil. Non-Condensing cars should be able to use a non-compounded version. However, I have learned more about synthetic oils and have begun to experiment with them. I feel a full synthetic, non-compounded oil is the ultimate for steam engine lubrication in the dry, superheated arena. I have sourced a polyalphaolefin lubricant and have compounded it with my other ingredients and the resulting oil is exactly like my mineral/resin blend, but has the following advantages.
1. Controlled synthesis means more purity with less undesirable contaminants like sulfur and nitrogen.
2. Excellent thermal stability means higher viscosities at high superheat temperatures where the oil must do its work.
3. Extra low pour points mean better lubrication at light loads where heavy mineral oils will not wet surfaces and build efficient films.
4. Negligible carbon residues mean no gummy or hard deposits because synthetic oil decomposes and evaproates with no residue.
5. Excellent lubricity combined with above features means less oil will do a better job, helping justify the higher costs of synthetics.
6. Synthetic base oil and tackiness additive ensure excellent separation from condensate in condenser hot wells.
I started working with the synthetics when I called the engineer on the old C&O car ferry "S.S. Badger". I am very familiar with this ship as she was built in 1952 with Skinner Compound Unaflow engines (2 four cylinder engines, 4,000 hp each). She is now an automobile ferry and operates every summer.
The engines on this ship gave trouble with cylinder lubrication from day one! They had to take the superheat from 740 deg. F. to about 680 deg. F. because they couldn't hold the rings (26" HP cylinder, 54" LP cylinder) in the HP cylinder. The current operators tried a modified synthetic gear lube and all the old problems disappeared. These engines operate at 440 psig and about 700 deg. F. They operate condensing with an exahaust vacuum around 29" Hg.
The new synthetic oil separates very nicely from the condensate in the hot well (they use a Davis Diomatacious Earth filter in the condensate returns to polish the feedwater).
This is a very good testimonial for synthetic base oils and I think the PAO based cylinder lubes will be a good fit for high performance, condensing steam automobiles.
I am very interested in custom blending synthetic concoctions for steam automobile operators. The synthetic base oils are very expensive, but they will provide vastly improved performance.
There is no question a properly blended synthetic oil will be far superior to the Exxon TK1500. Along these lines I tried to call Art Hart some time ago, but could not raise him. Does anyone know where he is? I would like to work with him to get Green Velvet Steam Cylinder Oil into the East Coast.
If anyone is interested in working with my oil let me know back channel.
Bill Petitjean
P.S. I can take Credit Cards (VISA and Mastercard) now</HTML>
My conclusions are that non-condensing cars should do fine with the Green Velvet Sapon-A-Min ISO1000 cylinder oil. Non-Condensing cars should be able to use a non-compounded version. However, I have learned more about synthetic oils and have begun to experiment with them. I feel a full synthetic, non-compounded oil is the ultimate for steam engine lubrication in the dry, superheated arena. I have sourced a polyalphaolefin lubricant and have compounded it with my other ingredients and the resulting oil is exactly like my mineral/resin blend, but has the following advantages.
1. Controlled synthesis means more purity with less undesirable contaminants like sulfur and nitrogen.
2. Excellent thermal stability means higher viscosities at high superheat temperatures where the oil must do its work.
3. Extra low pour points mean better lubrication at light loads where heavy mineral oils will not wet surfaces and build efficient films.
4. Negligible carbon residues mean no gummy or hard deposits because synthetic oil decomposes and evaproates with no residue.
5. Excellent lubricity combined with above features means less oil will do a better job, helping justify the higher costs of synthetics.
6. Synthetic base oil and tackiness additive ensure excellent separation from condensate in condenser hot wells.
I started working with the synthetics when I called the engineer on the old C&O car ferry "S.S. Badger". I am very familiar with this ship as she was built in 1952 with Skinner Compound Unaflow engines (2 four cylinder engines, 4,000 hp each). She is now an automobile ferry and operates every summer.
The engines on this ship gave trouble with cylinder lubrication from day one! They had to take the superheat from 740 deg. F. to about 680 deg. F. because they couldn't hold the rings (26" HP cylinder, 54" LP cylinder) in the HP cylinder. The current operators tried a modified synthetic gear lube and all the old problems disappeared. These engines operate at 440 psig and about 700 deg. F. They operate condensing with an exahaust vacuum around 29" Hg.
The new synthetic oil separates very nicely from the condensate in the hot well (they use a Davis Diomatacious Earth filter in the condensate returns to polish the feedwater).
This is a very good testimonial for synthetic base oils and I think the PAO based cylinder lubes will be a good fit for high performance, condensing steam automobiles.
I am very interested in custom blending synthetic concoctions for steam automobile operators. The synthetic base oils are very expensive, but they will provide vastly improved performance.
There is no question a properly blended synthetic oil will be far superior to the Exxon TK1500. Along these lines I tried to call Art Hart some time ago, but could not raise him. Does anyone know where he is? I would like to work with him to get Green Velvet Steam Cylinder Oil into the East Coast.
If anyone is interested in working with my oil let me know back channel.
Bill Petitjean
P.S. I can take Credit Cards (VISA and Mastercard) now</HTML>
Re: Cylinder Oil Report
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: December 06, 2002 12:21PM
<HTML>Art Hart, 396 North Road, Chester, N. J., 07930 'Phone 973-584-3319 E-mail: arthart@att.net This from a recent copy of his catalog.</HTML>
Re: Cylinder Oil Report
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: December 09, 2002 03:23PM
<HTML>Bill,
I tried to e-mail to your address in your posting; but it doesn't work.
Some have suggested using Mobile ONE gear oil, 140 wt; but as yet no one around here has tried it, so I do not know if it works well or not.
The questions are:
1) Does this synthetic work and stay together at 750-850°F?
2) What are the products of decomposition and at what temperature does it start to come apart?
3) What is the weight of the lubricant?
4) In the Doble, the cylinder oil is also used in the crankcase of the auxiliary unit with roller bearings. Any problem there?
5) Will it clog up the condenser or coat the inside of the tubes, or does it just flow through and wind up in the water tank?
6) In the Doble, which has no oil separator, the oil finally winds up floating on the top of the water in the tank. Easily flushed out when you next refill the tank. Would this synthetic do the same?
7) The number one problem with cylinder oil in the Doble and the Whites is that it forms carbon at the transition zone between the saturate and superheat sections, and is very hard to get out. Usually with an acid wash.
We use Mobile Super Extra Hecla Superheat oil, satisfactory; but the carbon problem remains with both their mineral and petrolium base versions.
8) When the car is parked for several months, does this oil stay on the walls of the cylinders or does it run off and leave the cylinders unprotected so they start rusting.
9) Do you have to flood the engine with oil, or is something like a pint in 1,000 miles adequate for ring protection.
The most vulnerable part of the Doble is the valve piston rings. They vanish with high temperature very rapidly.
If this stuff you are proposing is really superior by test, then I certainly want five gallons to try it out.
Jim Crank</HTML>
I tried to e-mail to your address in your posting; but it doesn't work.
Some have suggested using Mobile ONE gear oil, 140 wt; but as yet no one around here has tried it, so I do not know if it works well or not.
The questions are:
1) Does this synthetic work and stay together at 750-850°F?
2) What are the products of decomposition and at what temperature does it start to come apart?
3) What is the weight of the lubricant?
4) In the Doble, the cylinder oil is also used in the crankcase of the auxiliary unit with roller bearings. Any problem there?
5) Will it clog up the condenser or coat the inside of the tubes, or does it just flow through and wind up in the water tank?
6) In the Doble, which has no oil separator, the oil finally winds up floating on the top of the water in the tank. Easily flushed out when you next refill the tank. Would this synthetic do the same?
7) The number one problem with cylinder oil in the Doble and the Whites is that it forms carbon at the transition zone between the saturate and superheat sections, and is very hard to get out. Usually with an acid wash.
We use Mobile Super Extra Hecla Superheat oil, satisfactory; but the carbon problem remains with both their mineral and petrolium base versions.
8) When the car is parked for several months, does this oil stay on the walls of the cylinders or does it run off and leave the cylinders unprotected so they start rusting.
9) Do you have to flood the engine with oil, or is something like a pint in 1,000 miles adequate for ring protection.
The most vulnerable part of the Doble is the valve piston rings. They vanish with high temperature very rapidly.
If this stuff you are proposing is really superior by test, then I certainly want five gallons to try it out.
Jim Crank</HTML>
Re: Cylinder Oil Report
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: December 09, 2002 03:56PM
<HTML>Jim I have been using
Mobil One Synthetic Gear oil SHC 634 ISO 460 Stanley 735A. I can't say how the engine is, as I’ve never opened it up. I’ve been keeping my fingers crossed.
Rolly
[www.mbendi.co.za];
Mobil One Synthetic Gear oil SHC 634 ISO 460 Stanley 735A. I can't say how the engine is, as I’ve never opened it up. I’ve been keeping my fingers crossed.
Rolly
[www.mbendi.co.za];
Re: Cylinder Oil Report
Posted by: Howard Randall (IP Logged)
Date: December 10, 2002 11:59AM
<HTML>Bill,
The steam car hobby can sure use this kind of innovation as more and more condensing Stanleys seam to be coming out of the woodwork and making it back on the road.
My friend is re-boilering his 1917, 7 passenger, Stanley with a 30 hp copper tube boiler. The condenser will be cleaned. The car is fitted with a Madison-Kipp lubricator and home built oil separator. The car is driven approx. 2-3K miles/year. The last copper tube boiler lasted 12+ years and is being repalced because of a crack in the webb between a tube and a threaded fitting.
I mentioned your oil to the owner and he would be interested in the car being a test bed. Please contact me at steamin-yankee@att.net if this is of interest, and we can arrange details.</HTML>
The steam car hobby can sure use this kind of innovation as more and more condensing Stanleys seam to be coming out of the woodwork and making it back on the road.
My friend is re-boilering his 1917, 7 passenger, Stanley with a 30 hp copper tube boiler. The condenser will be cleaned. The car is fitted with a Madison-Kipp lubricator and home built oil separator. The car is driven approx. 2-3K miles/year. The last copper tube boiler lasted 12+ years and is being repalced because of a crack in the webb between a tube and a threaded fitting.
I mentioned your oil to the owner and he would be interested in the car being a test bed. Please contact me at steamin-yankee@att.net if this is of interest, and we can arrange details.</HTML>
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