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Steam aircraft
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 11, 2003 05:46PM
<HTML>In my search for information on LaMont boilers designed for aircraft use I have found little to go by. I noticed in an article on the Bessler and other steam aircraft that the Great Lakes Aircraft Corporation in conjunction with General Electric developed a prototype steam aircraft power plant. It was said to have an efficiency of 23% with steam at 1000 psi and 1000 degrees. I have yet to place this event on a timeline or find further information as to the design.
Is anyone familiar with this experimental design ?
It was interesting to note the article mentions the sale of the Bessler steam plane to the Japanese government in 1937 and after the war Bill Bessler could not relocate it. In the late 1950's a replica was built and tested in a 28 foot naval personal boat before ending up in the Smithsonian.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Is anyone familiar with this experimental design ?
It was interesting to note the article mentions the sale of the Bessler steam plane to the Japanese government in 1937 and after the war Bill Bessler could not relocate it. In the late 1950's a replica was built and tested in a 28 foot naval personal boat before ending up in the Smithsonian.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: March 11, 2003 06:16PM
<HTML>Another aircraft is being built now ....a steam blimp.
Steam runs the engine,then is exhausted to the envelope for lift.
Then the condensed water dripping to bottom of envelope. Is returned to the feedpump tank.Supposed to be cheaper than hot air ballooning.
Think it has a piston steam engine,instead of a turbine.</HTML>
Steam runs the engine,then is exhausted to the envelope for lift.
Then the condensed water dripping to bottom of envelope. Is returned to the feedpump tank.Supposed to be cheaper than hot air ballooning.
Think it has a piston steam engine,instead of a turbine.</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: March 14, 2003 06:55PM
<HTML>The web site www.flyingkettle.com covers this.
The airship idea is well into the future as the steam ballooning side needs to be achieved first.
I have some patent documents for a proposed aircraft steam turbine powerplant, if you would like a pdf drop me a line.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
The airship idea is well into the future as the steam ballooning side needs to be achieved first.
I have some patent documents for a proposed aircraft steam turbine powerplant, if you would like a pdf drop me a line.
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: March 15, 2003 11:23AM
<HTML>I suspect that a steam balloon would be nothing more than a large, flabby but effective condensor.</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft
Posted by: Dick Vennerbeck (IP Logged)
Date: March 15, 2003 03:27PM
<HTML> As the President of the ACME STEAM DIRIGIBLE WORKS Ltd., I can tell you that the smoke stack of the boiler is what goes into the envelope to provide the hot gas, not the steam. So far we have not had a problem with condensing the steam as it has not become a necessary part of our program. We are still working on the lift function of the hot air part. I'm sure the lack of lift can be overcome with just a little more time and money. We still have a few limited partnerships available for those who want to be part of this enormous money making potential method of transportation. I can show you my calculations for the F up! vector. (heat rises). I'll ask JW to put a image of the ACME STEAM DIRIGIBLE on the website.
SteamUp!
Dick Vennerbeck</HTML>
SteamUp!
Dick Vennerbeck</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: March 15, 2003 04:58PM
<HTML>Hi,,,For further news of HEAVIER than air progress look up Scientific American,, 1892--93 front page article on Hiram Maxim,,,180HP 2 prop aircraft,,,yes it did become airborne but that part wasnt planned ,,,so it goes in history as a failed project,,,,,,Col Pope hired him for his car projects,,,,,one of the 2 engines is in South Kensington Mus' ,,,The other is on its way to Smithsonian,as we speak,,,,,,who knows how long delivery will take,,,,by way of hms' Titanic,,,,,If U guys want to study light good size piston stuff,,,here is a absolutely fastenating design,,,,,There is a pic in Clymers somewhere ,,,,Maxim also wrote a book on aircraft theory about 1912 Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Ron Parola (IP Logged)
Date: March 15, 2003 11:50PM
<HTML>we're talking Major hot air here!!!RP</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Caleb Ramsby (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2003 04:19AM
<HTML>Benson,
Here is a link to some details about Maxims flying machine. What a superb contrivance! I would have loved to see Junkyard wars take this project on!
[www.railroadextra.com]
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Here is a link to some details about Maxims flying machine. What a superb contrivance! I would have loved to see Junkyard wars take this project on!
[www.railroadextra.com]
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: jim reed (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2003 04:56PM
<HTML>I have a ton of stuff on steam powered aircraft. If anyone wants copies all I ask is the provide the cost of postage. I get copying for free. Regards, Jim Reed</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2003 11:00PM
<HTML>Jim, just say how much and I will send it.</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Caleb Ramsby (IP Logged)
Date: March 16, 2003 11:47PM
<HTML>Jim, same here!</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 17, 2003 04:24PM
<HTML>Wow, while I've been off breaking my collar bone, information came in. I was given an article on the Great Lakes Aircraft corp with some insight to aircraft steam turbine development. The article is from the April 1932 issue of Aircraft Engineering, and though informative, it is incentive to dig further. The donor, to whom I am very thankful, is also researching the Besler engine bought by Japan in 1937.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: March 17, 2003 09:31PM
<HTML>Peter
If you look at the prior art section of the flying kettle web site, there is a review in pdf format of the Great Lakes proposal for a steam power plant to replace the engines in the ridgid airship Akron . The US Bureau of Aeronautics were not very complementary as they considered it a very optimistic proposal.
[www.flyingkettle.com]
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
If you look at the prior art section of the flying kettle web site, there is a review in pdf format of the Great Lakes proposal for a steam power plant to replace the engines in the ridgid airship Akron . The US Bureau of Aeronautics were not very complementary as they considered it a very optimistic proposal.
[www.flyingkettle.com]
Cheers
Mark Stacey</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: March 19, 2003 02:14PM
<HTML>Peter,
You broke your collerbone, fell off your tricycle, eh?
Have the researcher contact me. I have the engine blueprints, wiring diagram, plumbing diagram, etc. for Besler's airplane engine. And the film of it flying.
Let's see if we can assist in burying the nonsense about this engine.
Jim</HTML>
You broke your collerbone, fell off your tricycle, eh?
Have the researcher contact me. I have the engine blueprints, wiring diagram, plumbing diagram, etc. for Besler's airplane engine. And the film of it flying.
Let's see if we can assist in burying the nonsense about this engine.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 19, 2003 08:28PM
<HTML>Jim,
From the amount of research done, I would think the researcher has contacted you already but I left an email to contact you and share notes. I hope you both find more information of use.
Peter Heid</HTML>
From the amount of research done, I would think the researcher has contacted you already but I left an email to contact you and share notes. I hope you both find more information of use.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Jean Vezina (IP Logged)
Date: March 20, 2003 01:51AM
<HTML>Jim,
the "researcher" is myself. Peter Heid asked for documentation about
the Great Lakes aircraft project and I sent him an article I had about
it.
By the way, do you have ever heard of a company called
"Thermodynamics Systems" of Newport Beach, California? Their
vice president was R.G. Smith. At the end of the sixties they were
apparently working on a steam power plant for helicopters.
Thanks in advance and also many thanks for all the information
you supplied to me about the various Besler achievements.
Best regards,
Jean Vezina</HTML>
the "researcher" is myself. Peter Heid asked for documentation about
the Great Lakes aircraft project and I sent him an article I had about
it.
By the way, do you have ever heard of a company called
"Thermodynamics Systems" of Newport Beach, California? Their
vice president was R.G. Smith. At the end of the sixties they were
apparently working on a steam power plant for helicopters.
Thanks in advance and also many thanks for all the information
you supplied to me about the various Besler achievements.
Best regards,
Jean Vezina</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: March 20, 2003 03:55PM
<HTML>Yes,heard about it in aircraft mechanic school.
Garrett was working with them on a compound set-up with a gas turbine &an aux.power turbine that out performed a diesel on fuel economy......while the drive lasted.No problem with turbines just gearboxes getting cooked.</HTML>
Garrett was working with them on a compound set-up with a gas turbine &an aux.power turbine that out performed a diesel on fuel economy......while the drive lasted.No problem with turbines just gearboxes getting cooked.</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Jean Vezina (IP Logged)
Date: March 21, 2003 02:15AM
<HTML>
Thanks a lot for the useful information!
Has the helicopter flown ? If yes, I would like to obtain more information
in order to obtain reports or magazine articles.
There are also rumors about another steam powered airplane
that was built (and flown ?) in the sixties. The project was to develop
a steam engine for an agricultural airplane intended for crop dusting.
Here, unfortunately, the source doesn't give the engine manufacturer.
It is possible that this project existed only on paper, but I want to be
sure.
Officially, the 1933 Besler Travel Air is the only full sized steam powered
airplane that has successfully flown since the beginning of aviation. If
there is another, less known, but documented successful experiment, then this will be very interesting!
Best regards,
Jean Vezina</HTML>
Thanks a lot for the useful information!
Has the helicopter flown ? If yes, I would like to obtain more information
in order to obtain reports or magazine articles.
There are also rumors about another steam powered airplane
that was built (and flown ?) in the sixties. The project was to develop
a steam engine for an agricultural airplane intended for crop dusting.
Here, unfortunately, the source doesn't give the engine manufacturer.
It is possible that this project existed only on paper, but I want to be
sure.
Officially, the 1933 Besler Travel Air is the only full sized steam powered
airplane that has successfully flown since the beginning of aviation. If
there is another, less known, but documented successful experiment, then this will be very interesting!
Best regards,
Jean Vezina</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: March 21, 2003 02:15PM
<HTML>Does Maxim's ,,that flew by accident ,,,,,not intended to fly ,,[ but did ] 1893 [+ -] count,, the lift it generated was awesome,,,,pulled up a railroad track it was attached to! cheeers Ben</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: March 21, 2003 03:59PM
<HTML>Oop...the turbine was a diesel.Garrat actually wanted to run this thing in an Apache if they could get a grip on the heat problem.Supposed to put out more power than a turbine by itself...in the same amount of engine space.</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Jean Vezina (IP Logged)
Date: March 22, 2003 12:25AM
<HTML>
Well, no! The Hiram Maxim experiment is well documented in
aviation history textbooks and it is not considered a sustained and
controlled flight.
The same remark applies for the Clément Ader bat shaped steam
airplane.
The Maxim engine had certainly enough power to ensure flight, but
the airframe and the rails caused the failure.
The Besler airplane, on the contrary, flew very well and the reviews
published in the aviation magazines of that time were quite favorable. But, ironically,
the aviation history textbooks almost never mention it.
Regards,
Jean Vezina</HTML>
Well, no! The Hiram Maxim experiment is well documented in
aviation history textbooks and it is not considered a sustained and
controlled flight.
The same remark applies for the Clément Ader bat shaped steam
airplane.
The Maxim engine had certainly enough power to ensure flight, but
the airframe and the rails caused the failure.
The Besler airplane, on the contrary, flew very well and the reviews
published in the aviation magazines of that time were quite favorable. But, ironically,
the aviation history textbooks almost never mention it.
Regards,
Jean Vezina</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Jean Vezina (IP Logged)
Date: March 22, 2003 12:31AM
<HTML>
That's strange, since the article didn't mention the Diesel.
Here is a retranscription of the magazine article:
Air Progress, July 1969; Aeronews, p. 20
"Steamed Up Over Chopper Power
A steam power system for helicopters is being tested in a Hughes 300 by
Thermodynamic Systems, Inc., Newport Beach, California. R.G. Smith,
vice-president, said the rotor-wing craft is an ideal application for steam
systems since requirements are low output shaft speeds at high torque demand
with fast response time. One of the most important advantages of Steam
systems is their ability to store power in the form of high pressure, high
temperature water, then convert this power into reusable energy in event of
a failure in the steam generating portion of the system. The company is
building 25 prototype systems in the 150-shp range. Water is considered the
most practical fluid to use in present steam systems, which are 33 percent
cheaper to make than present internal combustion engines. They also are
silent and virtually nonpollutant to air."
Jean V.</HTML>
That's strange, since the article didn't mention the Diesel.
Here is a retranscription of the magazine article:
Air Progress, July 1969; Aeronews, p. 20
"Steamed Up Over Chopper Power
A steam power system for helicopters is being tested in a Hughes 300 by
Thermodynamic Systems, Inc., Newport Beach, California. R.G. Smith,
vice-president, said the rotor-wing craft is an ideal application for steam
systems since requirements are low output shaft speeds at high torque demand
with fast response time. One of the most important advantages of Steam
systems is their ability to store power in the form of high pressure, high
temperature water, then convert this power into reusable energy in event of
a failure in the steam generating portion of the system. The company is
building 25 prototype systems in the 150-shp range. Water is considered the
most practical fluid to use in present steam systems, which are 33 percent
cheaper to make than present internal combustion engines. They also are
silent and virtually nonpollutant to air."
Jean V.</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: March 22, 2003 08:52AM
<HTML>Appears garrett wasn't the only people messing with the idea of steam.
I know garret was a turbo compound,but your article appaers to be strictly steam.
Many turbines especially during the early days of jets used steam to double and in the case of first the water injected B-52's triple the horsepower.The B-52 would use half the tankage on board for water.4000 gallons in 10 minutes of takeoff and climb time.And gave more kick than rocket assist used before water injectionwas perfected.
As compressors improved fuel replaced water in wing tanks.</HTML>
I know garret was a turbo compound,but your article appaers to be strictly steam.
Many turbines especially during the early days of jets used steam to double and in the case of first the water injected B-52's triple the horsepower.The B-52 would use half the tankage on board for water.4000 gallons in 10 minutes of takeoff and climb time.And gave more kick than rocket assist used before water injectionwas perfected.
As compressors improved fuel replaced water in wing tanks.</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: March 23, 2003 03:28PM
<HTML>Ben,
The Maxim airplane did indeed lift its own weight; but didn't fly under complete, or any, control. It was restrained by rails from doing so. If there is any document that says the Ader Bat actually got off the ground under its own power, I have yet to see it. Bouncing down some field does not count, although the French love to revise history and extrapolate that into flight.
Besler took off, flew around the Oakland Airport under total control, as you would certainly expect with a Travelair biplane and landed. He repeated the process the next day. That was it and to date that was the only documented steam airplane flight, in spite of other rumors.
Jean, what are you doing with all this research? Writing it up or just using it for personal information?
Jim</HTML>
The Maxim airplane did indeed lift its own weight; but didn't fly under complete, or any, control. It was restrained by rails from doing so. If there is any document that says the Ader Bat actually got off the ground under its own power, I have yet to see it. Bouncing down some field does not count, although the French love to revise history and extrapolate that into flight.
Besler took off, flew around the Oakland Airport under total control, as you would certainly expect with a Travelair biplane and landed. He repeated the process the next day. That was it and to date that was the only documented steam airplane flight, in spite of other rumors.
Jean, what are you doing with all this research? Writing it up or just using it for personal information?
Jim</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 24, 2003 08:52PM
<HTML>Jean,
Ader's first plane was the Eole an was said to have flown 163 feet on Oct 9, 1890 on the grounds of the Chateau d'Amainvillers near Gretz France in front of 2 witnesses. In 1897 he flew the plane Avion 3 for 980 feet at the army camp at Satory, France, abit more than a hop. He had to cut off the power to avoid hitting the posts and barriers that surrounded the school of musketry near the trials. Avion 3 looked much like a modern monoplane with enclosed fuselage and cabin unlike his bat plane the Eole.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Ader's first plane was the Eole an was said to have flown 163 feet on Oct 9, 1890 on the grounds of the Chateau d'Amainvillers near Gretz France in front of 2 witnesses. In 1897 he flew the plane Avion 3 for 980 feet at the army camp at Satory, France, abit more than a hop. He had to cut off the power to avoid hitting the posts and barriers that surrounded the school of musketry near the trials. Avion 3 looked much like a modern monoplane with enclosed fuselage and cabin unlike his bat plane the Eole.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Jean Vezina (IP Logged)
Date: March 25, 2003 01:11AM
<HTML>> Jean, what are you doing with all this research? Writing it up or just >using it for personal information?
I am doing most of it for personal pleasure, as I find this subject
fascinating. But, eventually, I plan to write an article in an aviation
magazine. However, the article will not be merely a rehash of already published facts but will also cover little known facts such as the Besler second airplane project and, eventually, the projects of the sixties, if
these turn to be more than simply "paper projects".
Regards,
Jean Vezina</HTML>
I am doing most of it for personal pleasure, as I find this subject
fascinating. But, eventually, I plan to write an article in an aviation
magazine. However, the article will not be merely a rehash of already published facts but will also cover little known facts such as the Besler second airplane project and, eventually, the projects of the sixties, if
these turn to be more than simply "paper projects".
Regards,
Jean Vezina</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: Jean Vezina (IP Logged)
Date: March 25, 2003 02:11AM
<HTML>
But, the aviation textbooks don't consider the Ader experiments as "controlled, sustained" flights, even if the bat shaped plane left
the ground for a short moment.
See for example:
[aviation.about.com]
Regards,
Jean Vezina</HTML>
But, the aviation textbooks don't consider the Ader experiments as "controlled, sustained" flights, even if the bat shaped plane left
the ground for a short moment.
See for example:
[aviation.about.com]
Regards,
Jean Vezina</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft/dual prop
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: March 30, 2003 12:13PM
<HTML>I am reminded of French reaction to the Wright flyer. They were convinced France was greatly in the lead in heavier than air flight, some French machines had flown for nearly a minute. The first Wright flight over French soil lasted nearly an HOUR. A major Paris paper had front page headlines: the Wrights have come to teach us how to fly!</HTML>
Re: Steam aircraft
Posted by: Mr K Vieten (IP Logged)
Date: October 16, 2004 11:01AM
<HTML>I have heard that steam-powered aircraft were exerimented on and that one was still somewhere in existence, I'd love to see a picture of it. Steam-vehicle technology has never been truly perfected though the Doble brothers came VERY close with the Doble model E weighing 2 1/2 tons and reaching up to 93Mph with that 750psi monotube flash boiler. In the famous historic competition between Stephenson's Rocket and other engines at least one of them was too light-weight to pull that coal-trailer. This proves that it is POSSIBLE to build a small light-weight high-performance steam-engine (-piston-). I'd love to perfect that technology as I am convinced that thermal engines are the engine-technology of the future (I.C. engines just WASTE the heat) and as I have several imaginations on the subject such as a small multi-tube flash-boiler (75^ 2=5625 tubes @ 3mm outside dia, 1mm inside dia, 1mm spacing, made of stainless steel). Efficiency of steam-use has always been the effective use of steam-expansion but what about using part of the engine-force to circulate a cooling liquid between the (internal) radiator and pre-heating the feedwater, thereby reducing unneccessary heat-loss and reducing usage of fuel? Extreme insulations between the integrated cooling system, feedwater pre-heating and heat-chamber would be an absolute MUST, ofcourse. Any correspondence from you would be welcome. I am German and am using my mum's computer.
<a href="mailto:hihobmw@netheaven.com?subject=Steam aircraft">Peter Heid</a> wrote:
>
> In my search for information on LaMont boilers designed
> for aircraft use I have found little to go by. I noticed in
> an article on the Bessler and other steam aircraft that the
> Great Lakes Aircraft Corporation in conjunction with General
> Electric developed a prototype steam aircraft power plant.
> It was said to have an efficiency of 23% with steam at 1000
> psi and 1000 degrees. I have yet to place this event on a
> timeline or find further information as to the design.
>
> Is anyone familiar with this experimental design ?
>
> It was interesting to note the article mentions the sale of
> the Bessler steam plane to the Japanese government in 1937
> and after the war Bill Bessler could not relocate it. In
> the late 1950's a replica was built and tested in a 28 foot
> naval personal boat before ending up in the Smithsonian.
>
> Peter Heid</HTML>
<a href="mailto:hihobmw@netheaven.com?subject=Steam aircraft">Peter Heid</a> wrote:
>
> In my search for information on LaMont boilers designed
> for aircraft use I have found little to go by. I noticed in
> an article on the Bessler and other steam aircraft that the
> Great Lakes Aircraft Corporation in conjunction with General
> Electric developed a prototype steam aircraft power plant.
> It was said to have an efficiency of 23% with steam at 1000
> psi and 1000 degrees. I have yet to place this event on a
> timeline or find further information as to the design.
>
> Is anyone familiar with this experimental design ?
>
> It was interesting to note the article mentions the sale of
> the Bessler steam plane to the Japanese government in 1937
> and after the war Bill Bessler could not relocate it. In
> the late 1950's a replica was built and tested in a 28 foot
> naval personal boat before ending up in the Smithsonian.
>
> Peter Heid</HTML>
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