1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Boiler Plate
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 26, 2003 09:49AM
<HTML>Does anybody know a good source for 1/4" steel boiler plate? How much (approx) does this stuff cost per square foot?
I have an app (steam, but not a boiler shell) that I considered 1/4" cold-rolled steel flats for, but the cold-rolled is too expensive for this and hard to find in the right width. A friend told me that boiler plate is hot-rolled & cheaper -- is this true?
BTW, oil that shiny cold-rolled stuff before it goes in a storage bin. I put rusty fingerprints on a couple pieces recently -- a "learning experience". Guess my hands weren't greasy enough, and it was a hot day. Perspiration contains salt.
Peter</HTML>
I have an app (steam, but not a boiler shell) that I considered 1/4" cold-rolled steel flats for, but the cold-rolled is too expensive for this and hard to find in the right width. A friend told me that boiler plate is hot-rolled & cheaper -- is this true?
BTW, oil that shiny cold-rolled stuff before it goes in a storage bin. I put rusty fingerprints on a couple pieces recently -- a "learning experience". Guess my hands weren't greasy enough, and it was a hot day. Perspiration contains salt.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Plate
Posted by: Roland Evans (IP Logged)
Date: March 26, 2003 07:24PM
<HTML>
Peter
The most common boiler plate used is ASTM A516 and A285 See attached sheet. Go to the lower right side of the sheet. When you buy boiler plate make sure you get a mill spec sheet.
[www.highveldsteel.co.za]
Rolly</HTML>
Peter
The most common boiler plate used is ASTM A516 and A285 See attached sheet. Go to the lower right side of the sheet. When you buy boiler plate make sure you get a mill spec sheet.
[www.highveldsteel.co.za]
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Boiler Plate
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 27, 2003 05:05AM
<HTML>Hi Rolly,
Thanks for the info; duly entered in the notebook. There are a few local metal suppliers who probably have it, but I haven't checked them yet. Mainly wondering about the price range.
Peter</HTML>
Thanks for the info; duly entered in the notebook. There are a few local metal suppliers who probably have it, but I haven't checked them yet. Mainly wondering about the price range.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Plate
Posted by: Roland Evans (IP Logged)
Date: March 27, 2003 09:23AM
<HTML>Peter
Before you worry about the price of material you should consider a few good books, and their cost. These first three are only a start.
[www.asme.org]
[www.asme.org]
[www.asme.org]
Rolly</HTML>
Before you worry about the price of material you should consider a few good books, and their cost. These first three are only a start.
[www.asme.org]
[www.asme.org]
[www.asme.org]
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Boiler Plate
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 28, 2003 06:54AM
<HTML>Thanks Rolly, but the application in question is tie-rod cylinder heads, which don't need boiler-code steel. Steel plate (like old-fashioned "boiler plate", or cold-rolled flats) and conservative design are planned; Graham Baker and others have built very successful steam engines with layered steel-plate cylinder heads.
Current boiler design follows parameters from safe/successful boilers of the past, and is all-tube. No drums. Worst-case (control failure): a rip develops in the very small-diameter tubing, and steam vents inside the case, instantly extinguishing the fire and slowly/safely reducing pressure to zero.
Eventually I would like to get the set of boiler code books, but the price is a shocker. Few amateur steam builders, including the successful ones, seem to own these costly books. However, I do have a possible local source for a free used set. In the meantime, several other professional boiler design books are on hand, and I have obtained the current boiler code safe operating temperature/pressure specs for steel tubing of the diameter and wall thickness planned. The tubing & fittings exceed current code requirements for the design pressure/temperature (500 psi, 700°F). Pre-steaming state inspection and hydro-testing are planned.
Peter</HTML>
Current boiler design follows parameters from safe/successful boilers of the past, and is all-tube. No drums. Worst-case (control failure): a rip develops in the very small-diameter tubing, and steam vents inside the case, instantly extinguishing the fire and slowly/safely reducing pressure to zero.
Eventually I would like to get the set of boiler code books, but the price is a shocker. Few amateur steam builders, including the successful ones, seem to own these costly books. However, I do have a possible local source for a free used set. In the meantime, several other professional boiler design books are on hand, and I have obtained the current boiler code safe operating temperature/pressure specs for steel tubing of the diameter and wall thickness planned. The tubing & fittings exceed current code requirements for the design pressure/temperature (500 psi, 700°F). Pre-steaming state inspection and hydro-testing are planned.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Plate
Posted by: Roland Evans (IP Logged)
Date: March 28, 2003 10:37AM
<HTML>Good morning Peter
In my own experience designing my ASME code built boiler. All standard boiler Tube
A 178 or A106 IPS ect: you won’t have a problem with. What the Code boiler shops and insurance companies require are all the calculations sheets on each weld joint, ligament spacing, tube, plate and end plate calculations.
My boiler required thirty-six sheets of calculations and all the weld procedures for each joint, plus detailed drawings of total fabrication. It took me a year to complete all the paper work and drawings. It was more time consuming understanding what the acceptable practice was with the insurance companies. They control the industry.
As for engine fabrication, I have only used castings. Make a pattern and have it cast, saves a lot of time machining. If you build a working relationship with local foundries they will cast simple one of, parts by the pound cost.
Rolly</HTML>
In my own experience designing my ASME code built boiler. All standard boiler Tube
A 178 or A106 IPS ect: you won’t have a problem with. What the Code boiler shops and insurance companies require are all the calculations sheets on each weld joint, ligament spacing, tube, plate and end plate calculations.
My boiler required thirty-six sheets of calculations and all the weld procedures for each joint, plus detailed drawings of total fabrication. It took me a year to complete all the paper work and drawings. It was more time consuming understanding what the acceptable practice was with the insurance companies. They control the industry.
As for engine fabrication, I have only used castings. Make a pattern and have it cast, saves a lot of time machining. If you build a working relationship with local foundries they will cast simple one of, parts by the pound cost.
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Boiler Plate
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 30, 2003 06:29AM
<HTML>Hi Rolly,
Yowch! What type/size of boiler was this? Thanks for the heads-up on the insurance/regulatory hurdles. This sure points out the advantages of drumless boilers, and those with little or no welding or homebuilt jointing. Though I bet those have their own paperwork hassles, and they definitely have technical disadvantages relative to a Lamont or other type.
I have been told that some states exempt boilers below a certain size, and it is possible that a number of those units plumbed together, a la Andy Patterson's multi-boiler concept, would also be exempt. Only the boiler inspector knows for sure. Or at least his opinion is what counts. A steam car old-timer once told me that a state boiler inspector angrily refused to inspect his small high-pressure monotube -- "don't waste my time!" Laws and practices vary from one jurisdiction to the next.
I have been keeping an eye on custom iron castings, which definitely have advantages. The layered steel-plate heads currently on my drawing board would be heavier, and more costly in mass production, but easier & cheaper, I think, in the prototype stage and in possible pilot production. They also have a few technical advantages over cast-iron heads/blocks.
If I end up doing iron castings, I will seriously consider building a small cupola furnace a la Steve Chastain or Stewart Marshall's plans in the Lindsay catalog [www.lindsaybks.com] Some of those suckers can do serious iron pours, and they don't look too tough to build. From the foundry prices I've heard of, I think one of these would pay for itself with the first pour.
I have some experience with patterns, sand molds, and furnace operation, and have a circa 1980 Pyramid brand propane foundry set for pours of 10 lbs or so. Foundry work is not for the careless or faint of heart! I can do it, and it's real pride of workmanship when finished, but masses of glowing liquid metal, crucible handling, sand explosions, gas furnace flame-outs/backfires, etc still give me the willies. The hiss and grumble of a fresh-poured green sand mold have to be heard to be believed. Really satanic stuff.
I sure understand why most guys leave foundry work to the pro's. Legal disclaimer: I do not advise or advocate a home foundry for anyone -- "kids, don't try this at home".
Peter</HTML>
Yowch! What type/size of boiler was this? Thanks for the heads-up on the insurance/regulatory hurdles. This sure points out the advantages of drumless boilers, and those with little or no welding or homebuilt jointing. Though I bet those have their own paperwork hassles, and they definitely have technical disadvantages relative to a Lamont or other type.
I have been told that some states exempt boilers below a certain size, and it is possible that a number of those units plumbed together, a la Andy Patterson's multi-boiler concept, would also be exempt. Only the boiler inspector knows for sure. Or at least his opinion is what counts. A steam car old-timer once told me that a state boiler inspector angrily refused to inspect his small high-pressure monotube -- "don't waste my time!" Laws and practices vary from one jurisdiction to the next.
I have been keeping an eye on custom iron castings, which definitely have advantages. The layered steel-plate heads currently on my drawing board would be heavier, and more costly in mass production, but easier & cheaper, I think, in the prototype stage and in possible pilot production. They also have a few technical advantages over cast-iron heads/blocks.
If I end up doing iron castings, I will seriously consider building a small cupola furnace a la Steve Chastain or Stewart Marshall's plans in the Lindsay catalog [www.lindsaybks.com] Some of those suckers can do serious iron pours, and they don't look too tough to build. From the foundry prices I've heard of, I think one of these would pay for itself with the first pour.
I have some experience with patterns, sand molds, and furnace operation, and have a circa 1980 Pyramid brand propane foundry set for pours of 10 lbs or so. Foundry work is not for the careless or faint of heart! I can do it, and it's real pride of workmanship when finished, but masses of glowing liquid metal, crucible handling, sand explosions, gas furnace flame-outs/backfires, etc still give me the willies. The hiss and grumble of a fresh-poured green sand mold have to be heard to be believed. Really satanic stuff.
I sure understand why most guys leave foundry work to the pro's. Legal disclaimer: I do not advise or advocate a home foundry for anyone -- "kids, don't try this at home".
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Plate
Posted by: Roland Evans (IP Logged)
Date: March 30, 2003 09:24AM
<HTML>Peter
I have posted this before, but hear it as again.
ASME code Boiler. 300 PSI 385 Lb Per Hour. I am presently building a Derr boiler to replace my Stanley boiler. It has eighty Sq feet of hearing surface compared to the original Derr of only fifty Sq feet.
Rolly
[ourworld.cs.com];
I have posted this before, but hear it as again.
ASME code Boiler. 300 PSI 385 Lb Per Hour. I am presently building a Derr boiler to replace my Stanley boiler. It has eighty Sq feet of hearing surface compared to the original Derr of only fifty Sq feet.
Rolly
[ourworld.cs.com];
Re: Boiler Plate
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 30, 2003 08:26PM
<HTML>Thanks, Rolly; excellent work. Now that is a serious steam generator!
Please keep us posted on the Derr boiler. There is a good picture and description of one of these in "The Modern Steam Car And Its Background", by Thomas Derr, available (I think) from Lindsay <www.lindsaybks.com> page 70ff. The natural-circulation water-tube type is a big improvement over the Stanley, no drum, circulating pump, or carbon buildup, good stored energy, and simpler controls than a monotube. Weight/size are debatable, but run at proper steaming rates, blown off on schedule, and with controls in good order, should be bulletproof. What kind of burner and water-control are you planning? It is good to see the different types of boilers being built & road-tested.
Peter</HTML>
Please keep us posted on the Derr boiler. There is a good picture and description of one of these in "The Modern Steam Car And Its Background", by Thomas Derr, available (I think) from Lindsay <www.lindsaybks.com> page 70ff. The natural-circulation water-tube type is a big improvement over the Stanley, no drum, circulating pump, or carbon buildup, good stored energy, and simpler controls than a monotube. Weight/size are debatable, but run at proper steaming rates, blown off on schedule, and with controls in good order, should be bulletproof. What kind of burner and water-control are you planning? It is good to see the different types of boilers being built & road-tested.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Plate
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: April 12, 2003 02:45AM
<HTML>For what it is worth Thomas Derr's steamcar pictured in that book is for sale on Hemming Motors.Running a stanley engine.
Is the larger heated surface because of problems on that car?</HTML>
Is the larger heated surface because of problems on that car?</HTML>
Re: Boiler Plate
Posted by: Roland Evans (IP Logged)
Date: April 12, 2003 06:17PM
<HTML>Arnold
The original Derr did very well but like most condensing steam cars they all suffer from lack of steam on hills. More heating surface with the same amount of water and feed should perform a lot better on demand.
Rolly</HTML>
The original Derr did very well but like most condensing steam cars they all suffer from lack of steam on hills. More heating surface with the same amount of water and feed should perform a lot better on demand.
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Boiler Plate
Posted by: MOSTAFA HEMATIAN (IP Logged)
Date: February 26, 2004 08:15AM
<HTML>
<a href="mailto:ashenfern@webtv.net?subject=Re: Boiler Plate">Peter Brow</a> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Rolly; excellent work. Now that is a serious
> steam generator!
>
> Please keep us posted on the Derr boiler. There is a good
> picture and description of one of these in "The Modern Steam
> Car And Its Background", by Thomas Derr, available (I think)
> from Lindsay <www.lindsaybks.com> page 70ff. The
> natural-circulation water-tube type is a big improvement over
> the Stanley, no drum, circulating pump, or carbon buildup,
> good stored energy, and simpler controls than a monotube.
> Weight/size are debatable, but run at proper steaming rates,
> blown off on schedule, and with controls in good order,
> should be bulletproof. What kind of burner and water-control
> are you planning? It is good to see the different types of
> boilers being built & road-tested.
>
> Peter</HTML>
<a href="mailto:ashenfern@webtv.net?subject=Re: Boiler Plate">Peter Brow</a> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Rolly; excellent work. Now that is a serious
> steam generator!
>
> Please keep us posted on the Derr boiler. There is a good
> picture and description of one of these in "The Modern Steam
> Car And Its Background", by Thomas Derr, available (I think)
> from Lindsay <www.lindsaybks.com> page 70ff. The
> natural-circulation water-tube type is a big improvement over
> the Stanley, no drum, circulating pump, or carbon buildup,
> good stored energy, and simpler controls than a monotube.
> Weight/size are debatable, but run at proper steaming rates,
> blown off on schedule, and with controls in good order,
> should be bulletproof. What kind of burner and water-control
> are you planning? It is good to see the different types of
> boilers being built & road-tested.
>
> Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Plate
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 17, 2004 08:28AM
<HTML>Hi Mostafa,
Yep, that's what I wrote.
Peter</HTML>
Yep, that's what I wrote.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Steel Plate
Posted by: Nguyen Quoc Dat (IP Logged)
Date: July 03, 2004 06:47AM
<HTML>Dear Sir ,
We are boiler producer in Vietnam, have the inquiry of hot rolled steel plate for producing steam boiler , the sizes are :
- 2000 x 6000 x 12mm : 10 Mt
- 2000 x 6000 x 16mm : 10 Mt
- 2450 x 6000 x 12mm : 10 Mt
- 2450 x 6000 x 16mm : 10 Mt
Please give us the prices with term :</HTML>
We are boiler producer in Vietnam, have the inquiry of hot rolled steel plate for producing steam boiler , the sizes are :
- 2000 x 6000 x 12mm : 10 Mt
- 2000 x 6000 x 16mm : 10 Mt
- 2450 x 6000 x 12mm : 10 Mt
- 2450 x 6000 x 16mm : 10 Mt
Please give us the prices with term :</HTML>
Re: Boiler Steel Plate
Posted by: Nguyen Quoc Dat (IP Logged)
Date: July 03, 2004 06:51AM
<HTML>Dear Sir ,
We are boiler producer in Vietnam, have the inquiry of hot rolled steel plate for producing steam boiler , the sizes are :
- 2000 x 6000 x 12mm : 10 Mt
- 2000 x 6000 x 16mm : 10 Mt
- 2450 x 6000 x 12mm : 10 Mt
- 2450 x 6000 x 16mm : 10 Mt
Please give us the prices with term :
- CIF Hochiminh city port , Vietnam
- Payment term : L/C at sight
Look forwards to receiving your quotation .
Best regards,
Nguyen Quoc Dat ( Mr. )</HTML>
We are boiler producer in Vietnam, have the inquiry of hot rolled steel plate for producing steam boiler , the sizes are :
- 2000 x 6000 x 12mm : 10 Mt
- 2000 x 6000 x 16mm : 10 Mt
- 2450 x 6000 x 12mm : 10 Mt
- 2450 x 6000 x 16mm : 10 Mt
Please give us the prices with term :
- CIF Hochiminh city port , Vietnam
- Payment term : L/C at sight
Look forwards to receiving your quotation .
Best regards,
Nguyen Quoc Dat ( Mr. )</HTML>
Re: Boiler Steel Plate
Posted by: Nguyen Quoc Dat (IP Logged)
Date: July 03, 2004 06:53AM
<HTML>Dear Sir ,
We are boiler producer in Vietnam, have the inquiry of hot rolled steel plate for producing steam boiler , the sizes are :
- 2000 x 6000 x 12mm : 10 Mt
- 2000 x 6000 x 16mm : 10 Mt
- 2450 x 6000 x 12mm : 10 Mt
- 2450 x 6000 x 16mm : 10 Mt
Please give us the prices with term :
- CIF Hochiminh city port , Vietnam
- Payment term : L/C at sight
Look forwards to receiving your quotation .
Best regards,
Nguyen Quoc Dat ( Mr. )</HTML>
We are boiler producer in Vietnam, have the inquiry of hot rolled steel plate for producing steam boiler , the sizes are :
- 2000 x 6000 x 12mm : 10 Mt
- 2000 x 6000 x 16mm : 10 Mt
- 2450 x 6000 x 12mm : 10 Mt
- 2450 x 6000 x 16mm : 10 Mt
Please give us the prices with term :
- CIF Hochiminh city port , Vietnam
- Payment term : L/C at sight
Look forwards to receiving your quotation .
Best regards,
Nguyen Quoc Dat ( Mr. )</HTML>
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