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stanley engine knock
Posted by: Eric Gleason (IP Logged)
Date: May 29, 2003 01:07AM
<HTML>I have a slight, but noticable engine knock. I can mainly hear it at low speeds when I am not hooked up, as soon as I hook up it goes away, or at least becomes less audible. I took the engine cover off, spilling a lot of oil in the process. The car is a 1918 735 but it has a 740 engine judging from the number. Everything looks pretty good in there, the only loose thing I could find was one wrist pin. One of the wrist pins can be turned with finger pressure but does not seem to have any slop, the other feels really loose and can be moved in and out some. Another thing I noticed while I had things jacked up was that there is some binding between the ring gears, they rotate alright with no binding for most of a rotation but at one part of the gear they bind up some, must be slightly out of round. The teeth still look good so I don't think there has been any damage. I think I read that there is supposed to be a 1/32" gap between the gears, seems like it would be hard to measure. Anyway, looks like I will try and do some adjusting.
The other problem I have with the car is bad water and fuel mileage. I changed the heighth of the automatic because I think it was set too high, both my water level gauges showed that it was high and when I dropped the automatic a couple of inches it now looks like it is running in the normal range on both the kidney gauge and the thermocouple gauge. This seems to have helped some although things are still not great. The car does not have a feed water heater, I was thinking about putting a coil in the smoke hood and running the feed water through it, at least until I get the time to fabricate a feed water heater in the exhaust line.
One other question about lubrication, the steam cylinder oil on this car is injected into the line right at the engine, most cars I have seen have it injected near the dash, is one place better than the other?
While I am on lubrication, the rear wheel bearing have a grease cap, do I just put regular wheel bearing grease into the caps and screw them down, or do I put a heavy oil in?
Has anyone ever published a maintenance book for Stanleys? I have some back issues of the Steam Automobile and Light Steam Power and the Stanley Museum Newsletter that all have some articles in them, has anyone compiled it all?
Still having a bit of trouble with the empire burner, finally got the pilot to work OK, cleaned out all the pasagways and made new plugs for them, now it seems to like to be fired up at about 10 lbs of pressure, then when it warms it starts pulsing baddly, so increase the pressure to 25 and that goes away and it burns well, until I fire up the main burner (mostly when things are hot) and it blows out the pilot and starts to shot flame back down out of the air intake for the pilot. I am wondering if it is those 10 or so plugged tubes in the boiler limiting the flow through the boiler and making too much back draft? can I limit the flow of fuel and air into the burner to cut down on this problem without limiting performance too much?
Guess I am just still full of questions. Thanks, Eric</HTML>
The other problem I have with the car is bad water and fuel mileage. I changed the heighth of the automatic because I think it was set too high, both my water level gauges showed that it was high and when I dropped the automatic a couple of inches it now looks like it is running in the normal range on both the kidney gauge and the thermocouple gauge. This seems to have helped some although things are still not great. The car does not have a feed water heater, I was thinking about putting a coil in the smoke hood and running the feed water through it, at least until I get the time to fabricate a feed water heater in the exhaust line.
One other question about lubrication, the steam cylinder oil on this car is injected into the line right at the engine, most cars I have seen have it injected near the dash, is one place better than the other?
While I am on lubrication, the rear wheel bearing have a grease cap, do I just put regular wheel bearing grease into the caps and screw them down, or do I put a heavy oil in?
Has anyone ever published a maintenance book for Stanleys? I have some back issues of the Steam Automobile and Light Steam Power and the Stanley Museum Newsletter that all have some articles in them, has anyone compiled it all?
Still having a bit of trouble with the empire burner, finally got the pilot to work OK, cleaned out all the pasagways and made new plugs for them, now it seems to like to be fired up at about 10 lbs of pressure, then when it warms it starts pulsing baddly, so increase the pressure to 25 and that goes away and it burns well, until I fire up the main burner (mostly when things are hot) and it blows out the pilot and starts to shot flame back down out of the air intake for the pilot. I am wondering if it is those 10 or so plugged tubes in the boiler limiting the flow through the boiler and making too much back draft? can I limit the flow of fuel and air into the burner to cut down on this problem without limiting performance too much?
Guess I am just still full of questions. Thanks, Eric</HTML>
Re: stanley engine knock
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: May 29, 2003 09:53AM
<HTML>Stanley engines do not make a lot[ [or any] noise before explosive disassembly,,,,,,,one thing to think of is a piston loose on the piston rod threads,,,if you can get air pressure [avoids the burns]] on the engine and shift the links from fore to reverse[aft] ,,,,and see what moves,,,,,suggest to set the brake hard and jack up so you won't get caught up in the wheels,,,The wrist pins must have some play to allow for the misalignment of the engine when under a hard pull,,,,You are turning the bolt through the pin,,,NOT the pin itself of course,,,,details of this are pretty well coverd in Stanley Museum Bulitan quarterlys XXXXX To check clearence on gears,,,,run a piece of solid solder soft small stuff,,,through the mesh if the gears,,,it will get flattend to the clearence ! and now you can mike it to verify what the clearence actually is,,,,,on Gas engines we check the piston to valve clearence w/ window putty,,,much the same way,,,,old fashioned,,easy to do,,it works for me,,,Good luck,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: stanley engine knock
Posted by: Howard Randall (IP Logged)
Date: May 30, 2003 12:11PM
<HTML>C. B., you beat me to it!
Eric, do you know if the engine has been apart? Loose pistons can be a problem in engine rebuilding if the pistons have been first forced off the rods. It is particularly evident when replacing pistons on those designs where the rod end has been peened over, and the peening was not first removed before removing the piston. Clearly, in this situation, the thread interference is lost or destroyed and some provision needs to be made again to secure the piston(s) and prevent unscrewing.
A number of fixes exist including cleaning up the treads on the rod; inserting threaded steel inserts in the pistons, and tack welding them on.
I had a narrow escape on tour in Canada in a 1913-14, 20 HP touring (whose engine had been "fiddled with") on the final day, ½ mile from home base! Heard a slapping sound when accelerating from a stop light. Pulled over and SLOWLY moved the car back and forth under steam. Piston finally came of the end with a pop, locking the engine. Get the trailer! End of fun! NO other damage when inspected.
C.B. is right; noises in a normally quiet Stanley engine, more often than not, spell imminent failure with often-disastrous results.
Better to check it out than have to replace the cylinder block and more!</HTML>
Eric, do you know if the engine has been apart? Loose pistons can be a problem in engine rebuilding if the pistons have been first forced off the rods. It is particularly evident when replacing pistons on those designs where the rod end has been peened over, and the peening was not first removed before removing the piston. Clearly, in this situation, the thread interference is lost or destroyed and some provision needs to be made again to secure the piston(s) and prevent unscrewing.
A number of fixes exist including cleaning up the treads on the rod; inserting threaded steel inserts in the pistons, and tack welding them on.
I had a narrow escape on tour in Canada in a 1913-14, 20 HP touring (whose engine had been "fiddled with") on the final day, ½ mile from home base! Heard a slapping sound when accelerating from a stop light. Pulled over and SLOWLY moved the car back and forth under steam. Piston finally came of the end with a pop, locking the engine. Get the trailer! End of fun! NO other damage when inspected.
C.B. is right; noises in a normally quiet Stanley engine, more often than not, spell imminent failure with often-disastrous results.
Better to check it out than have to replace the cylinder block and more!</HTML>
Re: stanley engine knock
Posted by: Eric Gleason (IP Logged)
Date: May 31, 2003 02:12AM
<HTML>Well, jacked things up and filled the boiler with air and ran the engine some, the only knock I got so far at least was from the gear bind in the differential. Ran a piece of 1/16th Inch diameter solder through the gears and it came out basicly unsmashed, will try again on other places and see what happens. The binding is most pronounced at low RPM, and basicly not noticable when the engine is turning over at a good clip. Will try sitting in the car and switching from forward to reverse a few times to see if I can get it to make any other noises. The only other sound from the engine is a bit of a squeak in the right connecting rod. While I had air in the boiler at one point I had the brakes set, the cap on the condenser, and the gauge out of the water tank. I opened up the throttle ane, because the brake was set the engine did not turn but I did feel a draft coming out of the water tank. Does this mean I have leaky valves or pistons, or is some bypass normal. Thanks, Eric</HTML>
Re: stanley engine knock
Posted by: David K Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: June 01, 2003 11:46AM
<HTML>I suspect the looser wrist pin is too loose. George Monroe, onetime Stanley factory employee, told me the following for wrist pin adjustment:
Tighten the inner nut so the pin is solid. Tighten the outer nut with the fingers, then back it off until you can insert the cotter pin, but AT LEAST an eighth of a turn (45 deg). Then, turn the inner nut back HARD against the outer nut. It should be possible to turn the bolt in the rod with the fingers when you are done.
I calculate this technique results in a wrist pin clearance of about 0.001-0.0015 inches under load.
Sadly, it is quite normal for Stanley differentials to be slightly out of round. I suggest adjusting it so there is some slight back lash at every point of rotation. You will have to check it for several turns of each wheel to be sure of things. Also, tighten the axle nuts FIRMLY before you check. I found that getting things turning nicely, then doing the final tightening, resulted in "grinding" gears!</HTML>
Tighten the inner nut so the pin is solid. Tighten the outer nut with the fingers, then back it off until you can insert the cotter pin, but AT LEAST an eighth of a turn (45 deg). Then, turn the inner nut back HARD against the outer nut. It should be possible to turn the bolt in the rod with the fingers when you are done.
I calculate this technique results in a wrist pin clearance of about 0.001-0.0015 inches under load.
Sadly, it is quite normal for Stanley differentials to be slightly out of round. I suggest adjusting it so there is some slight back lash at every point of rotation. You will have to check it for several turns of each wheel to be sure of things. Also, tighten the axle nuts FIRMLY before you check. I found that getting things turning nicely, then doing the final tightening, resulted in "grinding" gears!</HTML>
Re: stanley engine knock
Posted by: Eric Gleason (IP Logged)
Date: June 01, 2003 06:31PM
<HTML>I will try that technique for wrist pin tightening, I think I now have it a bit tight, can only barely turn it with my fingers at one point in its rotation. That crank has a bit of a squeek, not just at the wrist pin. Ran it for a while, 2-3 minites, on air and nothing got warm. How long should it run to check on the clearances? I played with the engine/differential adjustment some, those bolts were tight! What should they be tightened to? Moved the engine back some, I did have a 1/16th inch gap, now have about a 32nd and it seems to bind less, only when starting off at one point in the gear. Will play around with it some more just to see if I can get it better. Any hints on how to line it all up so that the engine is square to the differential? I have not taken the hub caps off to look at the axles or played with any of that adjustment yet.</HTML>
Re: stanley engine knock
Posted by: Alan Woolf (IP Logged)
Date: June 02, 2003 01:17AM
<HTML>Eric,
If some of the other tricks don't solve the problem you might want to check and make sure you don't a piston that has unscrewed itself enough to be hitting the cylinder head. That might explain the tight spot you are feeling when you roll the engine over. We had this very probem with our 1917. The fix was to screw the piston back in the right location and peen the end of the rod to keep it from moving.
Alan</HTML>
If some of the other tricks don't solve the problem you might want to check and make sure you don't a piston that has unscrewed itself enough to be hitting the cylinder head. That might explain the tight spot you are feeling when you roll the engine over. We had this very probem with our 1917. The fix was to screw the piston back in the right location and peen the end of the rod to keep it from moving.
Alan</HTML>
Re: stanley engine knock
Posted by: Christopher W. Roberts (IP Logged)
Date: June 04, 2003 04:23AM
<HTML> Eric:
The wrist pin should not be able to be moved back and fourth. In setting it up, if you are not useing shims between the cones, the wrist pin should be able to be turned with your fingers easily. This is probally where your knock is.
As to the rear end, 1/32 is the correct adjustment. Too tight will wear the gear, and possible move the gear from the hub on the rear axle.
As to the oil, the further you are from the engine, the better. It will make the oil into more of a mist and cover valves much better.</HTML>
The wrist pin should not be able to be moved back and fourth. In setting it up, if you are not useing shims between the cones, the wrist pin should be able to be turned with your fingers easily. This is probally where your knock is.
As to the rear end, 1/32 is the correct adjustment. Too tight will wear the gear, and possible move the gear from the hub on the rear axle.
As to the oil, the further you are from the engine, the better. It will make the oil into more of a mist and cover valves much better.</HTML>
Re: Lining up of engine
Posted by: Kobus van Jaarsveld (IP Logged)
Date: June 18, 2003 05:42PM
<HTML>
Eric,
To get the engine square to the long axis of the back axle see it as an even-sided triangle with the axle as base. Measure to the the front of each cylinder on either side to a clearly definable piont near the end of the axle just before the brake shoe. If the brake shoes and drums have been removed, do not measure from the end of the sideshafts as these, on my cars anyway, do not protrude exactly the same distance from the ends of the axle housing.
Cheers, Kobus</HTML>
Eric,
To get the engine square to the long axis of the back axle see it as an even-sided triangle with the axle as base. Measure to the the front of each cylinder on either side to a clearly definable piont near the end of the axle just before the brake shoe. If the brake shoes and drums have been removed, do not measure from the end of the sideshafts as these, on my cars anyway, do not protrude exactly the same distance from the ends of the axle housing.
Cheers, Kobus</HTML>
Re: Lining up of engine
Posted by: Eric Gleason (IP Logged)
Date: June 22, 2003 03:03PM
<HTML>Hi,
I seem to have had some success lining up the engine using a square lined up on the frame cross member that is above the engine. I could see that the engine frame rods were not perpendicular to the cross member and adjusted things until they were. Then used the piece of solder trick to make sure the gear clearence was good. Now things seem to run smoothly, with none of the binding and popping I had before.</HTML>
I seem to have had some success lining up the engine using a square lined up on the frame cross member that is above the engine. I could see that the engine frame rods were not perpendicular to the cross member and adjusted things until they were. Then used the piece of solder trick to make sure the gear clearence was good. Now things seem to run smoothly, with none of the binding and popping I had before.</HTML>
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