1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 19, 2003 06:18AM
<HTML>I noticed on an air chart that air is much thinner at high altitudes -- eg, at 6,000 feet it is only ~80% as dense as at sea level. Do steam cars need burner adjustments when driving from low altitudes to high altitudes? Are there any problems or changes in performance when operating burners at higher altitudes?
Looks like the steam engine would love high altitude -- adding a few pounds to the indicator card via reduced back pressure. Condenser might not be so happy, though.
Peter</HTML>
Looks like the steam engine would love high altitude -- adding a few pounds to the indicator card via reduced back pressure. Condenser might not be so happy, though.
Peter</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: September 19, 2003 01:17PM
<HTML>When one goes from sea leavel to Denver or Albuquerque NM it requires changing jets in steamer or gas car,,,Main st of Abq is just a mile high around 2nd st I think,,,If you are just passing through power is down BOTH from lo air pressure as well as being over rich,,,,Riding bicycle can be a thrill for a few weeks,,,Marshill and Amsley both made the coast to coast run several years ago,,,Hardy men both,,,Some reccomendations for repeat of this are coverd in museum bulitan as I recall,,,Oh yeh ,,Diezel,no problem,,ditto cars w/O2 sensor/brain etc,,,Backissues AND complete set of issues are available,,,GREAT source,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: Mike Clark (IP Logged)
Date: September 20, 2003 06:42PM
<HTML>6 years ago I drove my 1925 Salmson (french 67cubic inch) sports car over the Loveland Pass after visiting Estes Park. Unexpectedly for me, but obvious when you think about it, I found that the engine has almost no compression when you wind the handle to start at 12000 feet - gives about half normal horsepower I would guess but runs very sweetly and starts quite normally. Got a bit fed up with slow going up I 70 in second gear so turned off and over Loveland. I tried a weaker needle in the SU carburettor (you need less juice because the weight of air going in is reduced) but couldn't notice any difference. Great trip though. I would think a steamer would need smaller jets for the same reason.
Mike</HTML>
Mike</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 20, 2003 11:15PM
<HTML>Interesting. I've seen noticeable power reduction (incl torque) in my '69 Vw Bug even with the engine cool and at only 4,000 feet in the Laguna Mountains (S. California). It would probably do 20 over Loveland Pass, and leave a smoke trail with the wrong jet. Went through there in a modern pickup truck a few months ago, no problems. I have heard that some people carry assorted jets for mountain driving in older cars, maybe I should too to keep the plugs clean up there.
Fortunately, jet swaps (gas or steam) are pretty easy, and rarely needed.
The Stanley Museum Quarterly is indeed a great source for all kinds of info. I have a complete set up to a couple years ago; need to renew membership.
Peter</HTML>
Fortunately, jet swaps (gas or steam) are pretty easy, and rarely needed.
The Stanley Museum Quarterly is indeed a great source for all kinds of info. I have a complete set up to a couple years ago; need to renew membership.
Peter</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: September 21, 2003 11:57AM
<HTML>I found no change in jet needed for my climb of Mt. Washington (6200 ft), but I usually run on the lean side to keep the howling in check. I would probably have gone one size smaller over 8000 feet.</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 21, 2003 07:18PM
<HTML>Excess air is a good idea. Howling seems associated with rich mixtures, and some extra air also automatically compensates for humidity and small barometric variations. Gas cars don't have this luxury.
Has anyone taken a steamer up Pike's Peak yet? I seeem to recall an article on this somewhere, but can't locate it now. @ 14,110 feet, air is about 59% of its sea level density (vs ~80% @ 6000) -- jets several drill number sizes smaller?
Is the ideal jet aperture area directly proportional to air density, for a given mix ratio, vapor pressure and mixtube area?
Peter</HTML>
Has anyone taken a steamer up Pike's Peak yet? I seeem to recall an article on this somewhere, but can't locate it now. @ 14,110 feet, air is about 59% of its sea level density (vs ~80% @ 6000) -- jets several drill number sizes smaller?
Is the ideal jet aperture area directly proportional to air density, for a given mix ratio, vapor pressure and mixtube area?
Peter</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: September 21, 2003 08:57PM
<HTML>Yep,,,Fellow by name of YONT drove a Locomobile up there too,,,around 1900 Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: September 22, 2003 03:36AM
<HTML>Our last tour through the Pikes peak region, Art Hart drove his model 70 up Pikes peak. Another model 70, I believe it might have been Craig Craddock? drove his model 70 up there also. Art did change out his jets to a smaller jet size. At about 10,000 feet I passed Art with our 606 while Art was flooding out with his larger jets. After he change to the smaller jets, as he drove on ahead of our 606 and we couldn't keep him in sight. It was interesting as both model 70 cars were set up the same but with different gearing. They both climbed the mountain just as quickly, but the one with the taller gearing had to stop to jack up his car to pump water more often. At the higher elevations, most Stanleys had to cut their kerosene with unleaded gas to get proper burning. It could be because they didn't carry the smaller jets to lean out the kerosene mixture.</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 22, 2003 09:34AM
<HTML>Wow! I've seen pictures of that road, multi-thousand-foot dropoffs w/o guard rails, not sure I'd have the nerve to take any vehicle up there, let alone an antique car. Well done!
Looking at various ideas for quick-change and variable jets. Just came up with a radical new(?) self-cleaning variable-opening jet design. Just what I need, another thing to patent. Tempted to jump ahead to building the pilot light to test it. Great retrofit for the classics ... if it works.
Peter</HTML>
Looking at various ideas for quick-change and variable jets. Just came up with a radical new(?) self-cleaning variable-opening jet design. Just what I need, another thing to patent. Tempted to jump ahead to building the pilot light to test it. Great retrofit for the classics ... if it works.
Peter</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: Caleb Ramsby (IP Logged)
Date: September 22, 2003 01:07PM
<HTML>If one were using forced air induction on a steamer. One could have the fan running at higher speed at higher altitudes or just have an air gate that can be opened up. Thus instead of decreasing the amount of fuel admited to the boiler one would just increase the amount of air admited. This would keep the same capacity for power availible to the driver, no power loss.
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Caleb Ramsby</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 22, 2003 09:10PM
<HTML>The variable inlet air gate on a fan burner sounds workable to me. Blower amps would increase at higher altitude. Has anybody tried this?</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude mixture
Posted by: C Benson (IP Logged)
Date: September 22, 2003 11:06PM
<HTML>How many models of WHITE had the air shutter??? Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: Dick Vennerbeck (IP Logged)
Date: September 23, 2003 12:07AM
<HTML>We put an air amplifier in the exhaust of Bud Leutza's 1910 Model 70 and with just a crack of the valve on the steam supply can get a nice negative pressure on the burner causing more air to flow through the venturi's. This might work well on Pikes Peak also. This past weekend we returned from a tour to Swanton California (about 14 miles) at a measured 50 MPH and maintained 600# PSI on Kerosene with a Baker Burner (and without moaning! ...not sure why...changed the jet venturi spacing recently as and experiment). Air amplifiers are available from many manufacturers including some that will take high temperatures. Checkthemout on "Google:
Steam's Up
Dick</HTML>
Steam's Up
Dick</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: Mike Clark (IP Logged)
Date: September 23, 2003 07:07PM
<HTML>Dick
What size and model is the air amplifier? Does it just sit in the exhaust flue or does it need to be big enough to fill the full bore of the flue? Does it do anything good or bad to the pilot?
As you may remember from earlier posts I think one of the contributory factors which makes pilots go out is that the air forced in by the main venturis makes enough internal pressure to stop the pilot from pulling enough air so it goes smokey and cools down. Sometimes a bit of stack blower helps but it is also possible that the problem is not pressure inside the burner but a depression just outside the venturis which sucks air back from the pilot intake. I can easily demonstrate this on my car by holding a strip of paper in front of the venturis when the burner is on and the car stationary. Either way a bit more flue suction may help.
Mike</HTML>
What size and model is the air amplifier? Does it just sit in the exhaust flue or does it need to be big enough to fill the full bore of the flue? Does it do anything good or bad to the pilot?
As you may remember from earlier posts I think one of the contributory factors which makes pilots go out is that the air forced in by the main venturis makes enough internal pressure to stop the pilot from pulling enough air so it goes smokey and cools down. Sometimes a bit of stack blower helps but it is also possible that the problem is not pressure inside the burner but a depression just outside the venturis which sucks air back from the pilot intake. I can easily demonstrate this on my car by holding a strip of paper in front of the venturis when the burner is on and the car stationary. Either way a bit more flue suction may help.
Mike</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: September 24, 2003 02:54AM
<HTML>Mike,
A duct or flow guide around the pilot jet & mixing tube, arranged to draw air from further away, might tell if main mixing tube suction is a factor in pilot die-back. It should be possible to set up the pilot to give the same pressure at the slots as the max in the main burner, despite the lower pilot fuel pressure. Seems like they should have been designed this way originally, but maybe a little pilot die-back was considered acceptable.
-----
Increasing pressure differential at exhaust or air intake end of boiler, are effective ways to compensate for altitude. Inlet air shutters are good for fan burners if fan motor is oversized for low altitude, but with vaporizing burners, using a shutter to do all compensating up to high altitude w/o drop in max fuel rate, requires much larger flowpath areas through mixtubes, flameholder, tube stack, and exhaust flue. With vaporizing burners, the gas flowpath area already adds a large volume to steam generator. System water loss is a consideration with air amplifiers, but acceptable in many applications.
Loss of peak steam car HP at high altitudes from reducing fuel rate would be the same as in equivalent IC cars. Any steamer has the advantage that the low-end torque is not reduced at high altitudes. For continuous or high-performance service at high altitudes, a larger steam system can be selected, just as larger IC engines are now selected for those conditions.
While I was writing this, some poor guy outside spent 10 minutes cranking his late-model gas car before it started. Inspiring sound effects for "steam vs. gas car" writing. :)
Peter</HTML>
A duct or flow guide around the pilot jet & mixing tube, arranged to draw air from further away, might tell if main mixing tube suction is a factor in pilot die-back. It should be possible to set up the pilot to give the same pressure at the slots as the max in the main burner, despite the lower pilot fuel pressure. Seems like they should have been designed this way originally, but maybe a little pilot die-back was considered acceptable.
-----
Increasing pressure differential at exhaust or air intake end of boiler, are effective ways to compensate for altitude. Inlet air shutters are good for fan burners if fan motor is oversized for low altitude, but with vaporizing burners, using a shutter to do all compensating up to high altitude w/o drop in max fuel rate, requires much larger flowpath areas through mixtubes, flameholder, tube stack, and exhaust flue. With vaporizing burners, the gas flowpath area already adds a large volume to steam generator. System water loss is a consideration with air amplifiers, but acceptable in many applications.
Loss of peak steam car HP at high altitudes from reducing fuel rate would be the same as in equivalent IC cars. Any steamer has the advantage that the low-end torque is not reduced at high altitudes. For continuous or high-performance service at high altitudes, a larger steam system can be selected, just as larger IC engines are now selected for those conditions.
While I was writing this, some poor guy outside spent 10 minutes cranking his late-model gas car before it started. Inspiring sound effects for "steam vs. gas car" writing. :)
Peter</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: john fehn (IP Logged)
Date: November 19, 2003 10:32PM
<HTML>I'd love to know what an air amplifier is. tks.</HTML>
Re: High-Altitude Steaming?
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: November 20, 2003 10:45AM
<HTML>Air amplifier ....steam vaccuum eductor is the more common name you would it know by.Used a lot on steamboats and locomotives to improve the draft.
I have to admit I use an electric blower on my tractor,but have looked at that as an option at a later date.Along with steampowered blowers
like the turbo chargoer mentioned in other threads about the Doble ....which uses both an electric blower for low speed and a turbo for high.
So many ways to do the same thing...</HTML>
I have to admit I use an electric blower on my tractor,but have looked at that as an option at a later date.Along with steampowered blowers
like the turbo chargoer mentioned in other threads about the Doble ....which uses both an electric blower for low speed and a turbo for high.
So many ways to do the same thing...</HTML>
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