1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Doble high speed run
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2004 06:55PM
<HTML>Jim could you please please tell us the detailed story on your high speed run. This sounds as exciting / fun / interesting as it gets in steam cars. What did it feel like, technical details, preparation etc. I'm sure there are a lot of readers on this forum who'd love to read the story.
Cheers
Mark
PS I'd pay good money to to have a ride like that!
If the car, like my Doble, and E-14, is equipped with a draft booster turbine, AND it is set up correctly, when you put your foot down there is absolutely no drop in pressure, nor is there any hesitation in the boiler's keeping up with everything the engine will take, right up to terminal speed. That was 126 mph and that is certainly as fast as I am going to push some old crate on a public highway.
Jim</HTML>
Cheers
Mark
PS I'd pay good money to to have a ride like that!
If the car, like my Doble, and E-14, is equipped with a draft booster turbine, AND it is set up correctly, when you put your foot down there is absolutely no drop in pressure, nor is there any hesitation in the boiler's keeping up with everything the engine will take, right up to terminal speed. That was 126 mph and that is certainly as fast as I am going to push some old crate on a public highway.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2004 07:10PM
<HTML>Mark,
We were driving from Reno up to Lake Tahoe and between West Reno and Carson City, there is a long stretch of good highway.
No preparation at all, I just put my foot in it. Sounded like a jet on takeoff and really a loud burner roar. Pressure gauge was quivering at 1200 and the temperature rock steady at 750°F.
At that speed the nasty idea of ancient tires, unknown wheel bearing condition and such things came to mind. At 126 I backed off to a more reasonable 70 mph.
Barney Becker and I were playing around on the freeway one early morning, when he wondered just how much draft E-14 would produce if the condenser relief valve was removed, so there was no backpressure on the booster, just right out the pipe. At 133 we quit and the draft was 22" pressure at 1500 psi.
Draft boosters give you that kind of performance.
Jim</HTML>
We were driving from Reno up to Lake Tahoe and between West Reno and Carson City, there is a long stretch of good highway.
No preparation at all, I just put my foot in it. Sounded like a jet on takeoff and really a loud burner roar. Pressure gauge was quivering at 1200 and the temperature rock steady at 750°F.
At that speed the nasty idea of ancient tires, unknown wheel bearing condition and such things came to mind. At 126 I backed off to a more reasonable 70 mph.
Barney Becker and I were playing around on the freeway one early morning, when he wondered just how much draft E-14 would produce if the condenser relief valve was removed, so there was no backpressure on the booster, just right out the pipe. At 133 we quit and the draft was 22" pressure at 1500 psi.
Draft boosters give you that kind of performance.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: george Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: April 09, 2004 10:09AM
<HTML>Jim,
Thats the kind of stuff that gets the steam juices flowing after a long, cold winter. The boiler tubing must be glowing a dull red at these excessive firing rates. To think a big, blockish 6000# car could do that! What is the update on the release date for your book?
George</HTML>
Thats the kind of stuff that gets the steam juices flowing after a long, cold winter. The boiler tubing must be glowing a dull red at these excessive firing rates. To think a big, blockish 6000# car could do that! What is the update on the release date for your book?
George</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: April 09, 2004 01:35PM
<HTML>George,
Phil still says that we start the publication process in June or July.
Just found over fifty factory original drawings from 1921-23. Didn't know I had them, until I cleaned out a closet and collected all my drawings in one place for the first time, in preparation for selecting drawings for the book.
Frame and suspension stuff, original dashboard layout, the first auxiliary unit, first E engine cylinder drawings, etc. Neat and very early stuff.
All as fragile as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Have to consult with the Stanford Library archivist about the right way to get moisture into them so they can be unrolled without damage and copied.
Also found the original layout for the 1933 airplane engine, the G.M. Chevy engine, more steam pumps, draft boosters, Mudd's quad engine, the Hill's triple, and all sorts of fascinating Doble developments. Including a couple of concept layouts of a Doble locomotive and a street car. The scope of their work just amazes me, even now.
Nope, the temperature was staying at 750°F all the time. This was the same trip when that hot Pontiac Bonneville couldn't catch the car going up the Mt. Rose road.
Using your figure of 200 hp and the known water rate hooked up of 13 lbs/hp/hr, we get 2600 lbs/hr evaporation rate. Which very closely matches the Doble tests in the lab where they got 26 lbs/hr/ sq/ft. The booster can double the evaporation rate, so the car didn't do so badly with a 100 sq/ ft coil stack. Sort of verifies their tests under actual road conditions.
E-14 then had a 110 sq/ ft area, E-23 was 100 sq/ft.
Even 80 years later, no one has yet even equalled a Doble.
Jim</HTML>
Phil still says that we start the publication process in June or July.
Just found over fifty factory original drawings from 1921-23. Didn't know I had them, until I cleaned out a closet and collected all my drawings in one place for the first time, in preparation for selecting drawings for the book.
Frame and suspension stuff, original dashboard layout, the first auxiliary unit, first E engine cylinder drawings, etc. Neat and very early stuff.
All as fragile as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Have to consult with the Stanford Library archivist about the right way to get moisture into them so they can be unrolled without damage and copied.
Also found the original layout for the 1933 airplane engine, the G.M. Chevy engine, more steam pumps, draft boosters, Mudd's quad engine, the Hill's triple, and all sorts of fascinating Doble developments. Including a couple of concept layouts of a Doble locomotive and a street car. The scope of their work just amazes me, even now.
Nope, the temperature was staying at 750°F all the time. This was the same trip when that hot Pontiac Bonneville couldn't catch the car going up the Mt. Rose road.
Using your figure of 200 hp and the known water rate hooked up of 13 lbs/hp/hr, we get 2600 lbs/hr evaporation rate. Which very closely matches the Doble tests in the lab where they got 26 lbs/hr/ sq/ft. The booster can double the evaporation rate, so the car didn't do so badly with a 100 sq/ ft coil stack. Sort of verifies their tests under actual road conditions.
E-14 then had a 110 sq/ ft area, E-23 was 100 sq/ft.
Even 80 years later, no one has yet even equalled a Doble.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: george Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: April 09, 2004 05:13PM
<HTML>Jim,
One thing that puzzles me using the draft booster with your Monarch fuel nozzles is how do you keef the air/fuel ratio correct as the draftbooster starts taking over? I think that is why Abner always preferred the carburator in that it was always self regulating. How do you do this with your Doble? Did Barney Beckers "Betsy" use the carb burner?
George</HTML>
One thing that puzzles me using the draft booster with your Monarch fuel nozzles is how do you keef the air/fuel ratio correct as the draftbooster starts taking over? I think that is why Abner always preferred the carburator in that it was always self regulating. How do you do this with your Doble? Did Barney Beckers "Betsy" use the carb burner?
George</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: April 09, 2004 07:04PM
<HTML>George,
E-23 has a hand fuel bypass under the dash and next to the steering column.
In town you just set it for zero visable smoke and leave it. You have to adjust it for freeway driving. Forget to do that after leaving town driving, and the mixture goes lean and BANG.
E-14 is exactly the same setup. In practice you would be surprised at how wide the clean burning range really is.
Carbs are better and since I have a brand new F type, I just may install it in E-23 and forget the problem.
Jim</HTML>
E-23 has a hand fuel bypass under the dash and next to the steering column.
In town you just set it for zero visable smoke and leave it. You have to adjust it for freeway driving. Forget to do that after leaving town driving, and the mixture goes lean and BANG.
E-14 is exactly the same setup. In practice you would be surprised at how wide the clean burning range really is.
Carbs are better and since I have a brand new F type, I just may install it in E-23 and forget the problem.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: Mark Stacey (IP Logged)
Date: April 12, 2004 06:00AM
<HTML>Thanks Jim for the description and George for the questions this is a real inspiration to keep progressing. What size is the monarch nozzle you have in E24? I assume it's pressure atomizing?
Those drawings you mentioned if you can copy them onto archival paper I'd buy a set for framing and display.
Cheers
Mark Stacey
PS I still want a copy of the next book you should write "All Jim Crank's steam car knowledge and experiences" but only after you've completed the steam vette. 150mph has me grinning just thinking about it.</HTML>
Those drawings you mentioned if you can copy them onto archival paper I'd buy a set for framing and display.
Cheers
Mark Stacey
PS I still want a copy of the next book you should write "All Jim Crank's steam car knowledge and experiences" but only after you've completed the steam vette. 150mph has me grinning just thinking about it.</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: george Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: April 12, 2004 09:26AM
<HTML>Mark,
Jim should tell the story about Howard Hughes and his two Dobles, Howard had one of them timed by the Texas state police of something like 120+mph, just think if the big Doble "E" powerplant had been put in something streamlined it probably would have been the best advertisement for this steam system.
George</HTML>
Jim should tell the story about Howard Hughes and his two Dobles, Howard had one of them timed by the Texas state police of something like 120+mph, just think if the big Doble "E" powerplant had been put in something streamlined it probably would have been the best advertisement for this steam system.
George</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: April 12, 2004 12:45PM
<HTML>Hi Mark,
The Monarch nozzle in E-23 is stamped 13.5 gph. Yes, it is a standard house heating pressure atomizing nozzle, 45° solid cone pattern. However, Monarch nozzles are rated at 100 psig. In town and usually on the road just cruising along, the nozzle pressure is about 50-80 psig. I have had it up to 125 psig when really going fast. Double the pressure and you get 1-1/2 times the rated flow.
I actually don't like this burner all that much. I am going to really look at putting the F carburetor burner back on and taking out all the plumbing and the belt driven fuel pump Besler put in the Doble, and use an electric fuel pump. They did this with several of the cars in the 1930's so they could burn #2 Diesel oil, which the carburetor doesn't atomize very well.
The drawings have to be moisturized and then unrolled and copied. I don't even know what all of them are yet. When the getting was good, I got!!
Jim</HTML>
The Monarch nozzle in E-23 is stamped 13.5 gph. Yes, it is a standard house heating pressure atomizing nozzle, 45° solid cone pattern. However, Monarch nozzles are rated at 100 psig. In town and usually on the road just cruising along, the nozzle pressure is about 50-80 psig. I have had it up to 125 psig when really going fast. Double the pressure and you get 1-1/2 times the rated flow.
I actually don't like this burner all that much. I am going to really look at putting the F carburetor burner back on and taking out all the plumbing and the belt driven fuel pump Besler put in the Doble, and use an electric fuel pump. They did this with several of the cars in the 1930's so they could burn #2 Diesel oil, which the carburetor doesn't atomize very well.
The drawings have to be moisturized and then unrolled and copied. I don't even know what all of them are yet. When the getting was good, I got!!
Jim</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: April 12, 2004 12:50PM
<HTML>George,
According to the often told story around the plant, Hughes was timed by the Texas State Police at 133 mph. This was with E-20, with the pressure jacked up to 2,000 psi. No draft booster either.
What we don't know is if Hughes removed the fenders and windshield to make this speed run. My guess is that he did remove everything he could to cut down the wind resistance.
Jim</HTML>
According to the often told story around the plant, Hughes was timed by the Texas State Police at 133 mph. This was with E-20, with the pressure jacked up to 2,000 psi. No draft booster either.
What we don't know is if Hughes removed the fenders and windshield to make this speed run. My guess is that he did remove everything he could to cut down the wind resistance.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: James Collins (IP Logged)
Date: June 10, 2004 11:07PM
<HTML>Hi, I am dating a great grandaughter of Abner Doble. She told me about the Doble and of course I did not beleive it. Is it true that Howard Hughes owned three?, and if so does anyone have any pictures of the "C"model?</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: James Collins (IP Logged)
Date: June 10, 2004 11:07PM
<HTML>Hi, I am dating a great grandaughter of Abner Doble. She told me about the Doble and of course I did not beleive it. Is it true that Howard Hughes owned three?, and if so does anyone have any pictures of the "C"model?</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: James Collins (IP Logged)
Date: June 10, 2004 11:15PM
<HTML>Sorry did not mean to reply to you, but who is Phil?How do I get on the list?</HTML>
Re: Doble high speed run
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: June 11, 2004 08:18PM
<HTML>James Crank may correct me on this, I believe the "C" type is a Doble Detroit. If so many pictures and catalog reprints are available. Try SACA Stores for one.</HTML>
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