1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Steam Fitting
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: February 28, 2002 08:47PM
<HTML>
Early in my steam studies, a steam-car oldtimer told me that he simply screwed together unfired high-pressure (500-600 psi) steam bits with schedule 80 steel pipe and forged steel fittings. He was adamant about schedule 80 & _forged_ fittings -- "no cast iron, that stuff will let go!" I didn't ask whether this had been learned the hard way. More recently, I have seen welded or hi-tech fittings recommended -- ONLY. Later on, a well-known steam car personality (I won't call him an "oldtimer" as he may be reading -- though "Old School" is a compliment among the kids, and I've gotten that one from kids gawking at my antique push mower) said that "there are plumbers, and then there are steam fitters". Another of those gold-nugget aphorisms.
From the pictures in old Cruban & Ofeldt catalogs and other old steam car literature, schedule 80 steel pipe ("black iron") & forged fittings seem to have been widely used. This heavy-duty pre-threaded stuff seems to have been popular in the ~1890-1930 era -- even in house plumbing -- perhaps because it can be put together quickly like Tinkertoys. Similar "galvo" water pipe can be fun in older houses. I remember one hot water line in my previous home (an Art-Deco Spanish casita), probably part of the original 1927 plumbing. This long pipe got into the habit of springing a new leak about twice a year. I asked ye olde family plumber about it, and he suppressed a grin and said eventually it would have to be replaced as it had about 20 Adams clamps on it! It is still used for gas pipe, I think it is Code, at least in California.
Anyway, I have a question about this type of Cruban/Ofeldt/Stanley era steam fitting. I figure it is okay for these applications (? -- I wouldn't use it for 1000psi/1000°F or like that) as McMaster lists it for 3000 psi, but I wonder about the joints. In gas plumbing, the threads need pipe dope unless you dig house fires. Do these kinds of joints need any special dope for high-pressure steam/water use? Or do you just Tinkertoy it together? Perhaps a bit of graphite like aircooled-VW spark plugs (or maybe "definitely not, that stuff will let go!"?)
Also, what about torque? I figure tight, but is it hand-tight, tight, tight-tight, tight-tight-TIGHT, or "stand on a four foot cheater" tight? Under and over torque might be equally unwise. For all I know, there may be special torque wrenches for steam fitting, though I've never seen any.
Any and all comments appreciated. I bet there's several centuries worth of combined practical steam experience among the guys here, and us newcomers to steam fitting would be most interested in this obscure but essential nuts-and-bolts stuff, especially us safety nuts.
Peter</HTML>
Early in my steam studies, a steam-car oldtimer told me that he simply screwed together unfired high-pressure (500-600 psi) steam bits with schedule 80 steel pipe and forged steel fittings. He was adamant about schedule 80 & _forged_ fittings -- "no cast iron, that stuff will let go!" I didn't ask whether this had been learned the hard way. More recently, I have seen welded or hi-tech fittings recommended -- ONLY. Later on, a well-known steam car personality (I won't call him an "oldtimer" as he may be reading -- though "Old School" is a compliment among the kids, and I've gotten that one from kids gawking at my antique push mower) said that "there are plumbers, and then there are steam fitters". Another of those gold-nugget aphorisms.
From the pictures in old Cruban & Ofeldt catalogs and other old steam car literature, schedule 80 steel pipe ("black iron") & forged fittings seem to have been widely used. This heavy-duty pre-threaded stuff seems to have been popular in the ~1890-1930 era -- even in house plumbing -- perhaps because it can be put together quickly like Tinkertoys. Similar "galvo" water pipe can be fun in older houses. I remember one hot water line in my previous home (an Art-Deco Spanish casita), probably part of the original 1927 plumbing. This long pipe got into the habit of springing a new leak about twice a year. I asked ye olde family plumber about it, and he suppressed a grin and said eventually it would have to be replaced as it had about 20 Adams clamps on it! It is still used for gas pipe, I think it is Code, at least in California.
Anyway, I have a question about this type of Cruban/Ofeldt/Stanley era steam fitting. I figure it is okay for these applications (? -- I wouldn't use it for 1000psi/1000°F or like that) as McMaster lists it for 3000 psi, but I wonder about the joints. In gas plumbing, the threads need pipe dope unless you dig house fires. Do these kinds of joints need any special dope for high-pressure steam/water use? Or do you just Tinkertoy it together? Perhaps a bit of graphite like aircooled-VW spark plugs (or maybe "definitely not, that stuff will let go!"?)
Also, what about torque? I figure tight, but is it hand-tight, tight, tight-tight, tight-tight-TIGHT, or "stand on a four foot cheater" tight? Under and over torque might be equally unwise. For all I know, there may be special torque wrenches for steam fitting, though I've never seen any.
Any and all comments appreciated. I bet there's several centuries worth of combined practical steam experience among the guys here, and us newcomers to steam fitting would be most interested in this obscure but essential nuts-and-bolts stuff, especially us safety nuts.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: coburn benson (IP Logged)
Date: March 01, 2002 01:47AM
<HTML>We should get some milage out of this one,,ha ha ha ,,Get a bag of fittings an pipe, an turn em together til the pipe goes flat from the wrench,,you'll get the feel easily I think,,,a old blacksmith I knew as a teenager saved a bucket of bolts w/nuts on,kept it under the raingutter,,,every new apprentice got his turn at taking nuts off,,,some broke of course,but it is experiance gained an useful Yes I did my turn too,,Wendall Phillips was selling Harleys in Cambridge by the time it was my turn!! XXXXGenerally ,, after it seems tight enough,,,Needs 1/2 turn more XXX Stay away from cast iron...While we are on pip'n,,,COPPER work hardens,,always,, REPLACE the copper from the oil pump to the steam line at regular intervals,,,Just DO it,,,You can buy a MILE of copper for the price of 1 block,,,[Part # 7-101] Just a note of humor?? The important pipe are the ones at the boiler,,w/no valve,,so a failure cant be shut off,,, Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: March 01, 2002 09:39AM
<HTML>Any old pipe will do? Not really. Black iron pipe was made in two ways, BUTT-welded and LAP welded, BUTT-welded. A120 black iron pipe Sch 40, is rated at 750 PSI, Lap welded is rated at 900 PSI. A lot of pipe is now made out side the US and GOD is the only one who knows what you’re getting. The pipe to use is A106 AB seamless.
Grade Sch 40 is rated 2500 PSI. Forged fittings welded is the only way to go. If you can’t weld in some places then use Sch 80. Thinner seamless boiler tube is OK as well, used in the right appellation. The material to use should be based on the overall design. I always use Sch 80 nipples on threaded fitting with a good pipe dope. My latest project is my ASME designed marine boiler. [ourworld.cs.com]
Rolly</HTML>
Grade Sch 40 is rated 2500 PSI. Forged fittings welded is the only way to go. If you can’t weld in some places then use Sch 80. Thinner seamless boiler tube is OK as well, used in the right appellation. The material to use should be based on the overall design. I always use Sch 80 nipples on threaded fitting with a good pipe dope. My latest project is my ASME designed marine boiler. [ourworld.cs.com]
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: March 01, 2002 12:37PM
<HTML>I have read that threaded pipe should assembled hand tight then tightened a specific number of turns. Sadly, I can't remember the number or where I read it. Probably 1 1/2 or 2 turns is enough.
Always use a pipe dope to lubricate and seal the threads, especially if you ever want to unscrew them in the future.
As Rolly said, use lap welded pipe. Butt welded pipe usually has a visible bulge along the weld on the inside of the pipe. If the inside is smooth and round, it is probably lap welded.
On the few places where pipe, rather than tube, is used on my Stanley, I have used schedule 40 pipe without problems. However, I do make it point to buy steel fittings from a hydraulic supply house as they are both stronger and more open to flow than the typical plumbing supply house fittings.</HTML>
Always use a pipe dope to lubricate and seal the threads, especially if you ever want to unscrew them in the future.
As Rolly said, use lap welded pipe. Butt welded pipe usually has a visible bulge along the weld on the inside of the pipe. If the inside is smooth and round, it is probably lap welded.
On the few places where pipe, rather than tube, is used on my Stanley, I have used schedule 40 pipe without problems. However, I do make it point to buy steel fittings from a hydraulic supply house as they are both stronger and more open to flow than the typical plumbing supply house fittings.</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 01, 2002 02:36PM
<HTML>Hanson Whitney company and others make NPTF taps that are called Dryseal Taper. They are a precision ground taps and a 1 inch NPTF may cost about $75.00. I'm not sure of any application specifications but I have seen their use in hydraulic circuits with no sealer on the assembled threads.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: coburn benson (IP Logged)
Date: March 01, 2002 03:07PM
<HTML>For those of us that spend on the car AND also eat almost regular'''''I have found you can polish the threads w/ valve grinding compound,,,,just back 'n forth for a short while,,,The ole lead compounds are out'' now,,,can we hear what is good,,bad ,, horrid ,,etc ,,,amongst the new stuff,,,, XXXX Those direct water guages,,,NO SHUT OFF,,W/a life expentcy' on the glass,,, How many hobbyists consider the HOURS the guage is under steam,,,,Stanley had a VERY good solution,,,[ except the bronz bottle w/the counter weight]] XXXX This topic [pipe/dope]is good to help get these cars on the road again,,,AND leave a trail for others to follow,,,,my spellin not whithsandin,,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: March 01, 2002 04:10PM
<HTML>Clark reliance, Penberthy & Earinst will not rate their reflex glass for steam over 300 PSI. They want you to use flat glass with mica behind it and the water. The PH can etch the glass. I guess there Liability insurance is getting high. They also recommend replacing the glass every year, torque at 32-inch ounce. I hate to think of how many years the glass has been on my Stanley & no shutoff valves. And it is sitting right in front of your legs.
Rolly</HTML>
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: Howard Randall (IP Logged)
Date: March 01, 2002 06:25PM
<HTML>Hello Gentlemen, I'm new to the trade. Is not "pipe dope" the guy on the end of any high pressure fitting that is not forged or seamless Sch. 40 up to 1/4" an Sch. 80 pipe above?
Keep your legs crossed Rolly!</HTML>
Keep your legs crossed Rolly!</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: Rolly Evans (IP Logged)
Date: March 01, 2002 06:40PM
<HTML>Good to hear from you Howard. I noticed on your 1910 the glass in on the passenger side. Smart move.
Rolly</HTML>
Rolly</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: John Mahler (IP Logged)
Date: March 01, 2002 06:48PM
<HTML>I am a newcomer to steam cars and this list. This is my first post.I have repaired many threaded connections in building steam distribution systems over many years. Firstly, I realize the comparison to steam distribution systems for steam cars does not fit. However, I think the topic I wish to address may.
Namely the cutting and corrosion that may occur with threaded connections of any description. Because steam and condensate can contain certain harmful corrosives, any leakage can cause erosion of the thread fit. When that has developed sufficiently, a steam leak can develop that will cut the remainder of the joint until it must be repaired.
I have often wondered why connections are not made by the swage and weld method. I do realize it would be prohibitively expensive in building steam distribution systems. However, in steam car boilers, it may not be. I think it would be easy to manufacture a swaging block and plug by amateurs who only want to build "one off" evaporators. Such a device used in conjunction with a rosebud torch could quickly make swaged ends on pipe to be joined. When pipes are then fit together, running a bead about the circumpherence of the joint should make a strong and leak free joint. Alternatively, if the coil is to be filled with water at all times, I think brazing would be sufficient.
John Mahler
<a href="mailto:steamin-yankee@att.net?subject=Re: Steam Fitting">Howard Randall</a> wrote:
>
> Hello Gentlemen, I'm new to the trade. Is not "pipe
> dope" the guy on the end of any high pressure fitting that
> is not forged or seamless Sch. 40 up to 1/4" an Sch. 80 pipe
> above?
>
> Keep your legs crossed Rolly!</HTML>
Namely the cutting and corrosion that may occur with threaded connections of any description. Because steam and condensate can contain certain harmful corrosives, any leakage can cause erosion of the thread fit. When that has developed sufficiently, a steam leak can develop that will cut the remainder of the joint until it must be repaired.
I have often wondered why connections are not made by the swage and weld method. I do realize it would be prohibitively expensive in building steam distribution systems. However, in steam car boilers, it may not be. I think it would be easy to manufacture a swaging block and plug by amateurs who only want to build "one off" evaporators. Such a device used in conjunction with a rosebud torch could quickly make swaged ends on pipe to be joined. When pipes are then fit together, running a bead about the circumpherence of the joint should make a strong and leak free joint. Alternatively, if the coil is to be filled with water at all times, I think brazing would be sufficient.
John Mahler
<a href="mailto:steamin-yankee@att.net?subject=Re: Steam Fitting">Howard Randall</a> wrote:
>
> Hello Gentlemen, I'm new to the trade. Is not "pipe
> dope" the guy on the end of any high pressure fitting that
> is not forged or seamless Sch. 40 up to 1/4" an Sch. 80 pipe
> above?
>
> Keep your legs crossed Rolly!</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: George K. Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: March 01, 2002 06:55PM
<HTML>Howard,
There are many "pipe dopes" of us out there and many in a "pinch" will use hardware store schedule 40 stuff to test a setup where the piping is not under fire. The complexities of all the regulations make it confusing as to what is usable. For example the ASME code for miniature boilers does not require inspection of welds but that the system be pressure tested at 3 times the working pressure, not the regular 1.5 times. Uninspected/x-rayed welds are to be derated by a factor of .6 although good welds done by a certified welder are stronger than the base material.
As an example to the confusion abounding around us consider the .6X weld factor mentioned on a 32,000 psi tensile strength material in the form of 1/2" Schedule 40 butt welded pipe---the maximum allowable pressure would be 7,700psi and with a 3/1 miniature boiler code involved would mean that 2,570psi would be allowable.
Babcox& Wilcox would allow 12,000psi tensile strength(factor of safety of 4) that would allow 4,800psi steam pressure using 1/2" Schedule40 SA-53 pipe. SA-53 pipe may be butt welded or seamless and Rolly's mention of SA-106 is the better seamless, gets rid of the weld factor but costs more. Old engineers like me may use a factor of safety of 4/1 after derating the material---that would give me a maximum of 1900psi within the pipe . Guess none of us have the $5500 compleat set of ASME codes in front of us!!! It is true that a lot of cheap imported pipe and fittings are flooding the market and who knows what it is made of or its yield and tensile strength. Although the above examples all allow for a good margin of safety your idea of using the heavier Schedule 80 does have merit. I doubt that this discussion has pressures much in excess of 600psig in mind however. Isn't it amazing that some of the Stanley copper tube boilers are running .035" wall and are fired as well!! Think the good old days of ragged edge factor of safety are gone for good.
George</HTML>
There are many "pipe dopes" of us out there and many in a "pinch" will use hardware store schedule 40 stuff to test a setup where the piping is not under fire. The complexities of all the regulations make it confusing as to what is usable. For example the ASME code for miniature boilers does not require inspection of welds but that the system be pressure tested at 3 times the working pressure, not the regular 1.5 times. Uninspected/x-rayed welds are to be derated by a factor of .6 although good welds done by a certified welder are stronger than the base material.
As an example to the confusion abounding around us consider the .6X weld factor mentioned on a 32,000 psi tensile strength material in the form of 1/2" Schedule 40 butt welded pipe---the maximum allowable pressure would be 7,700psi and with a 3/1 miniature boiler code involved would mean that 2,570psi would be allowable.
Babcox& Wilcox would allow 12,000psi tensile strength(factor of safety of 4) that would allow 4,800psi steam pressure using 1/2" Schedule40 SA-53 pipe. SA-53 pipe may be butt welded or seamless and Rolly's mention of SA-106 is the better seamless, gets rid of the weld factor but costs more. Old engineers like me may use a factor of safety of 4/1 after derating the material---that would give me a maximum of 1900psi within the pipe . Guess none of us have the $5500 compleat set of ASME codes in front of us!!! It is true that a lot of cheap imported pipe and fittings are flooding the market and who knows what it is made of or its yield and tensile strength. Although the above examples all allow for a good margin of safety your idea of using the heavier Schedule 80 does have merit. I doubt that this discussion has pressures much in excess of 600psig in mind however. Isn't it amazing that some of the Stanley copper tube boilers are running .035" wall and are fired as well!! Think the good old days of ragged edge factor of safety are gone for good.
George</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 02, 2002 12:11PM
<HTML>Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the great info, comments, ideas, & "LOL" humor. Too much good stuff to reply to individually. What brand/type of pipe do... uh, sealant are folks using? I have some of the stuff for gas pipe, but HP water/steam seem to be very different applications. Instead of dope for pipes, I'd rather use Prince Albert. But he's in the can.
Peter</HTML>
Thanks for all the great info, comments, ideas, & "LOL" humor. Too much good stuff to reply to individually. What brand/type of pipe do... uh, sealant are folks using? I have some of the stuff for gas pipe, but HP water/steam seem to be very different applications. Instead of dope for pipes, I'd rather use Prince Albert. But he's in the can.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: Jeff Theobald (IP Logged)
Date: March 02, 2002 11:31PM
<HTML>Hi Peter,
I am in the UK, and here we have a jointing compound called "Heldite" with all joints I find a careful clean two turns of thin PTFE tape and a thin coat of compound and screw together, pull up tight with pipe wrench or gripps tight but not overtight, I use this on all joints including any in the fire box, and they never give any trouble, and when necessary, I have always been able to get them undone.
The company here that makes the compound is called.... Heldite Ltd, Heldite Centre, Bristow Road, Hounslow, Middlesex, TW3 1UP. U.K. Their telephone number is...0181-577-9157 Fax 0181-577-9057, and I find their 250 ml tin lasts a long time, hope this helps, Jeff.</HTML>
I am in the UK, and here we have a jointing compound called "Heldite" with all joints I find a careful clean two turns of thin PTFE tape and a thin coat of compound and screw together, pull up tight with pipe wrench or gripps tight but not overtight, I use this on all joints including any in the fire box, and they never give any trouble, and when necessary, I have always been able to get them undone.
The company here that makes the compound is called.... Heldite Ltd, Heldite Centre, Bristow Road, Hounslow, Middlesex, TW3 1UP. U.K. Their telephone number is...0181-577-9157 Fax 0181-577-9057, and I find their 250 ml tin lasts a long time, hope this helps, Jeff.</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: coburn benson (IP Logged)
Date: March 03, 2002 01:24AM
<HTML>Hey,,Hey,,,Is this the stuff in a tooth paste tube,,the red stuff was the best,,we used it in the Triumph shop in 1970,,,now if iI can only find a old box it came in......While U'r up,,,,,,How about a word about Edward Joy & co,,,,Made Link Life for chains,,,an' Graphite greese for whatever ails y'a,,,Also provided the oil for Stevensons ROCKET [[1827]],,,,,They made the best chain greese ever,,,Are they still in business,,,did someone take over their trade,,,,After 175 years I would hope they are still in business,,but i have not been able to find a contact,,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 04, 2002 08:59AM
<HTML>Hi Jeff,
Thanks! I did some web searching, found a place in England which lists Heldite & does international mail order, and another reference which said that Heldite is widely used for sealing in large commercial steam equipment like locomotives, etc.. Sounds like great stuff.
I found that there is quite a bit of disagreement on what is best for sealing steam system pipe threads. Some people like A, others say A is junk, use B instead, then believers in Product C join the fray, etc.. There are also quite a few products out there.
Somebody recommended "Keytite", and I checked and found this in the McMaster-Carr catalog. This is said to be good for water & good to 450°F. Next to it was listed "Key Graphite Paste", good for high-pressure petroleum products & steam to 750°F but not for water. So maybe Keytite for water fittings & Key Graphite for steam? I don't want something that welds the threads or rattles loose/leaky. Has anyone here tried Keytite or Key Graphite?
Peter</HTML>
Thanks! I did some web searching, found a place in England which lists Heldite & does international mail order, and another reference which said that Heldite is widely used for sealing in large commercial steam equipment like locomotives, etc.. Sounds like great stuff.
I found that there is quite a bit of disagreement on what is best for sealing steam system pipe threads. Some people like A, others say A is junk, use B instead, then believers in Product C join the fray, etc.. There are also quite a few products out there.
Somebody recommended "Keytite", and I checked and found this in the McMaster-Carr catalog. This is said to be good for water & good to 450°F. Next to it was listed "Key Graphite Paste", good for high-pressure petroleum products & steam to 750°F but not for water. So maybe Keytite for water fittings & Key Graphite for steam? I don't want something that welds the threads or rattles loose/leaky. Has anyone here tried Keytite or Key Graphite?
Peter</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: Jeff Theobald (IP Logged)
Date: March 04, 2002 09:39PM
<HTML>Hi Coburn,
No, this stuff comes in a tin and is black in colour, it has a lovely smell ( sort of old fastioned ) which I seem to remember is the same smell as "Red Hermitite" which did come in a tube, maybe this is the stuff you are talking about, all the best, Jeff.</HTML>
No, this stuff comes in a tin and is black in colour, it has a lovely smell ( sort of old fastioned ) which I seem to remember is the same smell as "Red Hermitite" which did come in a tube, maybe this is the stuff you are talking about, all the best, Jeff.</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: coburn benson (IP Logged)
Date: March 05, 2002 12:06AM
<HTML>Yes,Yes, Hermatite,,thats the stuff,,,DOES it still exist???Ditto,Linklife,,Ed Joy& co Oil supliers for THE Rocket1827 ?? The Red stuff would even hold the Caster bean racing oil we used '' Castrol R'' ,,Does anyone here go to The island for race week??Any thots of a 100yr aniv' celebration?? Could we field a Stanley + Napier {K5 is in Holland],,,Just dreamig again,,,[For the guys that dont know ,,1904 Napier ,,Bore6.5 Stroke 6=796cid]</HTML>
Re: Steam Fitting
Posted by: andrew Lee (IP Logged)
Date: August 31, 2005 03:45AM
<HTML>Please give me information PRICES about
PPE 14 INCH WELDY END SCH 40 SEAMLESS WE NEED 160 PCS
PIPE 6 INCH WELDY END SCH 40 SEAMLESS WE NEED 170 PCS
Please explain to us,how can I buy from you, for all items.
Thank u for your attention.
My best regard,
Andrew Lee</HTML>
PPE 14 INCH WELDY END SCH 40 SEAMLESS WE NEED 160 PCS
PIPE 6 INCH WELDY END SCH 40 SEAMLESS WE NEED 170 PCS
Please explain to us,how can I buy from you, for all items.
Thank u for your attention.
My best regard,
Andrew Lee</HTML>
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