1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Paxton Phoenix
Posted by: raffi minasian (IP Logged)
Date: July 22, 2004 06:43AM
<HTML>I saw that some time ago Myron Vernis was looking for information on the steam powered Paxton car built in the 50's. I purchased it in 1977 from Paxton and owned the car for more than 15 years until I sold it to Brooks Stevens. If someone knows his email, please forward mine to him as I would be pleased to assist him with any information on the car.
rgds,Raffi</HTML>
rgds,Raffi</HTML>
Re: Paxton Phoenix
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: July 22, 2004 10:23AM
<HTML>Raffi,
Thanks so much for letting us know about the Paxton. Many of us thought after McCollough put the project in dead storage that the car was in deep forever dead storage or scrapped itself. It was a magnificient effort and most modern in every way, there is much SAE and other information on it with a lot of engineering data as well. A car ahead of its time.
George</HTML>
Thanks so much for letting us know about the Paxton. Many of us thought after McCollough put the project in dead storage that the car was in deep forever dead storage or scrapped itself. It was a magnificient effort and most modern in every way, there is much SAE and other information on it with a lot of engineering data as well. A car ahead of its time.
George</HTML>
Re: Paxton Phoenix-story
Posted by: raffi minasian (IP Logged)
Date: July 22, 2004 07:49PM
<HTML>I bought the car in 1977 for $6000.00 at the auction. In hindsight, I should have bought more of the Paxton items, but at that time, the car was all I could afford. I drove it only a few times as it had a bot over 600 miles logged on the odometer. It had a unique retractable roof which slid down tracks along the upper portion of the rear fenders and nested onto the trunk...clever, but as the engine was in the rear, you needed to raise the roof to open the trunk.
In the early 90's my brother and I restored the engine and general mechanicals that were used on the car (Porsche) and prepared it for sale. We sold the car to Brooks Stevens (the original body designer) who was very pleased to have it in the collection. After his death, they sold the car for roughly the same price to a private collector. Driving it was fun and it got a great deal of , attention, however, after the initial purchase, I had planned to locate the engine (which I was told was still available from a surplus Navy yard in So Cal) and have it installed into the car as intended by Paxton. I gained the confidence of several engineers and car enthusiasts that we could accomplish this feat, however, the mysterious engine refused to surface.
Another private collector also purchased the rolling body buck which was painted and detailed very well and I do not know what came of that car other than the person who owned it also owned a gun shop in LA. It was a marvel of engineering and HUGE money was spent to create it. Best wishes to the new owner and send him my way if you can. I still have some old data on the car.</HTML>
In the early 90's my brother and I restored the engine and general mechanicals that were used on the car (Porsche) and prepared it for sale. We sold the car to Brooks Stevens (the original body designer) who was very pleased to have it in the collection. After his death, they sold the car for roughly the same price to a private collector. Driving it was fun and it got a great deal of , attention, however, after the initial purchase, I had planned to locate the engine (which I was told was still available from a surplus Navy yard in So Cal) and have it installed into the car as intended by Paxton. I gained the confidence of several engineers and car enthusiasts that we could accomplish this feat, however, the mysterious engine refused to surface.
Another private collector also purchased the rolling body buck which was painted and detailed very well and I do not know what came of that car other than the person who owned it also owned a gun shop in LA. It was a marvel of engineering and HUGE money was spent to create it. Best wishes to the new owner and send him my way if you can. I still have some old data on the car.</HTML>
Re: Paxton Phoenix-story
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: July 23, 2004 02:46PM
<HTML>Raffi,
Thanks for such valuable information. A few things are unclear to me and possibly you could clarify on them. You mention trying to locate the engine in a Navy Yard, was that the triple steeple steam compound?? If so the car you bought had a different engine or system in it? It sounds like you bought the car with the Brooks Stevens body on it as it had a retractable roof, is this correct? If the car did not have the test mini-boiler and steam engine in it what did it have(with 600 miles on it). Your information is a missing piece of very important history on what Robert McCollough did with the car.
I do not know what a "rolling body buck" is, you mention it was a marvel of engineering and a HUGE amount of money spent on it---would this be the test chassis with the steam plant??
Thanks so much for starting this topic, many of us consider athe Paxton lproject as one of the most serious and technically advanced efforts made in modern steam.
Thank You, George</HTML>
Thanks for such valuable information. A few things are unclear to me and possibly you could clarify on them. You mention trying to locate the engine in a Navy Yard, was that the triple steeple steam compound?? If so the car you bought had a different engine or system in it? It sounds like you bought the car with the Brooks Stevens body on it as it had a retractable roof, is this correct? If the car did not have the test mini-boiler and steam engine in it what did it have(with 600 miles on it). Your information is a missing piece of very important history on what Robert McCollough did with the car.
I do not know what a "rolling body buck" is, you mention it was a marvel of engineering and a HUGE amount of money spent on it---would this be the test chassis with the steam plant??
Thanks so much for starting this topic, many of us consider athe Paxton lproject as one of the most serious and technically advanced efforts made in modern steam.
Thank You, George</HTML>
Re: Paxton Phoenix-story
Posted by: raffi minasian (IP Logged)
Date: July 23, 2004 10:27PM
<HTML>Forgive my assumptions in this story, I had assumed that many knew the history of the car beyond my ownership. Let me further expand:
The car that I owned was a complete and running prototype that demonstrated to investors and to the engineering staff all the aspects of a working automobile. It was quite well developed in that it had production castings for the unique suspension, handmade trim in several areas, sophisticated stampings in the platform and framework, and complete unique bodywork.
The engine that was used in the car and in fact, the only engine to ever power a Paxton was a Porsche engine. This engine was a rare Hirth crank motor taken directly from a 356. The car was bought and driven to So Cal by a staff member and the motor was removed. Other parts were used, including the gearbox and some suspension components, however the majority of the cars features were handmade.
The interior of the car was mostly leather and featured a two tone blue scheme with the most striking feature being the central instrument "pod" of circular design. The steering wheel "floated" within the circular design. Under the hood there was ample room for luggage and spare tire. The car was made of fiberglass (yes, 1953 concurrent with LA area customs like the Kaiser Darrin, Woodhill Wildfire, etc FG was starting to make its way into production), including the vac. metalized bumpers and other trim.
Regarding the engines, I searched for some years as best as I could and even worked with the possibility of devising a variation of the proposed steam plant to put into the "body buck" as a second car. Which brings me to that subject...
The body buck is the term car designers (I am one of them) use to describe a car that looks like the eventual car. It is done in full size to give mgmt. a chance to review the "look" and agree to move ahead. It also is a working tool for the design and build team to start checking measurements and proportions. Paxton built the buck and spent a lot of money dolling it up with an interior, glass, and trim details. The idea at the time, was for me to purchase the buck and recreate the chassis with the engineering data for the steam engine and then build the fully realized steam powered Paxton while still maintaining the Porsche powered original. This did not happen.
In a nice twist of fate, some years later in 1988 I was working with DesignWorks (now BMW design in Thousand Oaks) on a car project. In discussion one day with the project manager, I found out that his first project was as a builder on the Paxton! He was the youngest member and in fact the only surviving one I knew of at the time. He and I shared stories about the car and he ended up assisting in the restoration as well.</HTML>
The car that I owned was a complete and running prototype that demonstrated to investors and to the engineering staff all the aspects of a working automobile. It was quite well developed in that it had production castings for the unique suspension, handmade trim in several areas, sophisticated stampings in the platform and framework, and complete unique bodywork.
The engine that was used in the car and in fact, the only engine to ever power a Paxton was a Porsche engine. This engine was a rare Hirth crank motor taken directly from a 356. The car was bought and driven to So Cal by a staff member and the motor was removed. Other parts were used, including the gearbox and some suspension components, however the majority of the cars features were handmade.
The interior of the car was mostly leather and featured a two tone blue scheme with the most striking feature being the central instrument "pod" of circular design. The steering wheel "floated" within the circular design. Under the hood there was ample room for luggage and spare tire. The car was made of fiberglass (yes, 1953 concurrent with LA area customs like the Kaiser Darrin, Woodhill Wildfire, etc FG was starting to make its way into production), including the vac. metalized bumpers and other trim.
Regarding the engines, I searched for some years as best as I could and even worked with the possibility of devising a variation of the proposed steam plant to put into the "body buck" as a second car. Which brings me to that subject...
The body buck is the term car designers (I am one of them) use to describe a car that looks like the eventual car. It is done in full size to give mgmt. a chance to review the "look" and agree to move ahead. It also is a working tool for the design and build team to start checking measurements and proportions. Paxton built the buck and spent a lot of money dolling it up with an interior, glass, and trim details. The idea at the time, was for me to purchase the buck and recreate the chassis with the engineering data for the steam engine and then build the fully realized steam powered Paxton while still maintaining the Porsche powered original. This did not happen.
In a nice twist of fate, some years later in 1988 I was working with DesignWorks (now BMW design in Thousand Oaks) on a car project. In discussion one day with the project manager, I found out that his first project was as a builder on the Paxton! He was the youngest member and in fact the only surviving one I knew of at the time. He and I shared stories about the car and he ended up assisting in the restoration as well.</HTML>
Re: Paxton Phoenix-story
Posted by: George Nutz (IP Logged)
Date: July 24, 2004 09:51AM
<HTML>Raffi,
A most interesting story, I wonder if Jim Crank is going to include any of the Paxton story in his new hardbound book on the Doble story, as you might remember Abner Doble was the chief steam consultant and he designed the boiler and the steeple compound engine. I "sorta" remember the pictures of the boiler and engine mounted in a test chassis for dyno testing, believe it was a ford chassis. This is what I thought you might be referring to as the "buck". Was the steam plant ever rediscovered? The engine, although running at almost impossible temperatures had an extremely low steam rate, that is very high thermal efficiency. Remember the car was to have outstanding performance better than any gasoline car of its time including the Olds 88.
About 25 years ago did a complete thermodynamic study of the boiler and engine which was a great exercise in seeing if my theoretical computations had any basis in reality compared to the published data, thankfully they came out quite close, sort of a self imposed engineering exam. Have always been thrilled about the Paxton project but once again the fabled Pheonix did not end up flying but remained a pile of ashes.
Thanks so much for your posts, George</HTML>
A most interesting story, I wonder if Jim Crank is going to include any of the Paxton story in his new hardbound book on the Doble story, as you might remember Abner Doble was the chief steam consultant and he designed the boiler and the steeple compound engine. I "sorta" remember the pictures of the boiler and engine mounted in a test chassis for dyno testing, believe it was a ford chassis. This is what I thought you might be referring to as the "buck". Was the steam plant ever rediscovered? The engine, although running at almost impossible temperatures had an extremely low steam rate, that is very high thermal efficiency. Remember the car was to have outstanding performance better than any gasoline car of its time including the Olds 88.
About 25 years ago did a complete thermodynamic study of the boiler and engine which was a great exercise in seeing if my theoretical computations had any basis in reality compared to the published data, thankfully they came out quite close, sort of a self imposed engineering exam. Have always been thrilled about the Paxton project but once again the fabled Pheonix did not end up flying but remained a pile of ashes.
Thanks so much for your posts, George</HTML>
Re: Paxton Phoenix-story
Posted by: Myron Vernis (IP Logged)
Date: August 04, 2004 07:23PM
<HTML>Raffi,
I purchased the Paxton from the Brooks Stevens estate several years ago and it holds an honored position in my "collection". It was shown for the first time last year at the inaugural Cranbrook Concours in Detroit and was honored with an award. I've spent a fair amount of time researching the car and gathering material, but would love to talk to you about it.
Regards,
Myron
PS: Did anyone see the amazing Doble at MeadowBrook this past weekend?</HTML>
I purchased the Paxton from the Brooks Stevens estate several years ago and it holds an honored position in my "collection". It was shown for the first time last year at the inaugural Cranbrook Concours in Detroit and was honored with an award. I've spent a fair amount of time researching the car and gathering material, but would love to talk to you about it.
Regards,
Myron
PS: Did anyone see the amazing Doble at MeadowBrook this past weekend?</HTML>
Re: Paxton Phoenix-story
Posted by: Bill Vance (IP Logged)
Date: August 23, 2004 07:49PM
<HTML>Hello Myron
I was excited to read that the Paxton Phoenix still exists. I read the original story by John Bond in Road & Track, and have always been intrigued by the car.
I am an automotive historian/writer, and I write a weekly automotive history column that we syndicate to newspapers across Canada. I would like to write a story on the PP, but I need a photo. I have not attended Cranbrook (it's quite new, as you know), and now I am sorry I didn't get there to see your PP. We do get to Meadow Brook each year, and yes, that Doble steamer was really something.
Do you plan to show the PP at any other shows over the next year? I am about 40 miles west of Toronto, so Michigan shows are not a problem. Failing that, would you be willing to sell me a nice, colour 3/4 front view photo of the PP (in print form, not on the net)?
As you probably know, John Bond was a suspension engineer on this project.
Glad to hear that the Phoenix still lives, even with a Porsche engine.
Bill Vance</HTML>
I was excited to read that the Paxton Phoenix still exists. I read the original story by John Bond in Road & Track, and have always been intrigued by the car.
I am an automotive historian/writer, and I write a weekly automotive history column that we syndicate to newspapers across Canada. I would like to write a story on the PP, but I need a photo. I have not attended Cranbrook (it's quite new, as you know), and now I am sorry I didn't get there to see your PP. We do get to Meadow Brook each year, and yes, that Doble steamer was really something.
Do you plan to show the PP at any other shows over the next year? I am about 40 miles west of Toronto, so Michigan shows are not a problem. Failing that, would you be willing to sell me a nice, colour 3/4 front view photo of the PP (in print form, not on the net)?
As you probably know, John Bond was a suspension engineer on this project.
Glad to hear that the Phoenix still lives, even with a Porsche engine.
Bill Vance</HTML>
Re: Paxton Phoenix-story
Posted by: Myron Vernis (IP Logged)
Date: September 21, 2004 08:20PM
<HTML>Bill,
I'll be happy to help in any way I can. Feel free to contact me at mtv@neo.rr.com.
Myron</HTML>
I'll be happy to help in any way I can. Feel free to contact me at mtv@neo.rr.com.
Myron</HTML>
Re: Paxton Phoenix-story
Posted by: Jim Bell (IP Logged)
Date: September 02, 2005 08:29AM
<HTML>Just got my Aug 29,05 AutoWeek and was delighted to see that the Phoenix is still arround.
My dad, Allan F. Bell, an engineer (University of Michigan) worked on that project at Mc Culloch. As a Kid, I spent many hours at the Mc Culloch plant on Century Bl. in L.A, pretending to drive the Phoenix.
I always found the Phoenix to be a little odd. Maybe it was because I could not understand how such a small, plain looking engine could power such a beautiful car. The ONLY engine to ever power it was the four cylinder Porsche. The ONLY engine design that I ever heard of that was intended to become the future power plant was a Steam engine.
There was a working Paxton prototype steam powered rolling chassis. As I remember it, it had a perimiter frame and the steam power plant took up the front, with tubes, pipes and stuff running everywhere. There was no body. It's been a long time, but I remember that the first drive shaft twisted due to the high torque at low RPM. I know because I was the passenger, my dad the driver.
Abner Doble was brought in as a consultant on the project. Aber did not come alone, he brought one of his Steam cars. Sitting on my dad's lap, I got to drive the streets of Westchester in a Doble. Abner and my father became great friends and both knew that the Steam powered Phoenix was not the future. My dad explained it to me in engineering terms that as I remember came down to something this. In a Steam engine, Oil and Water should not mix, but it cannot be stopped. However, Robert Paxton Mc Culloch, who was also quite an engineer did not give up easy, or cheaply. I know that at least one million dollars was spent on the project.
When the project ended, the Phoenix was moved across the street to what was Mc Culloch's version of Skunk Works. Years later, Mc Culloch sold his company to Black & Decker. He asked my dad to come with him and run his new Skunk Works a few miles away. There my dad assembled a team that could design and build just about anything. The Phoenix also made the trip, but I do not remember that the prototype chassis was brought there. Among the secret projects there, was a electric car. The boss with the initials, RPM, liked cars.
My dad worked on the motor controller design, which is probably the second most important part of a electric car. He also worked on the most important part, the battery design. Again, my dad knew that electric was not the future, at least not until a major break thru in battery technology, which he and his team could not accomplish.
When Bob Mc Culloch died, his family gave my dad first pick of anything that was up for auction. I wish he would have taken the Phoenix. My dad was interviewed by the L.A. Times for a story on the auction. The article included a photo of my dad and the Phoenix.
My dad passed away over a year ago. Till the end, his memory was incredible. I wish he could have been the one to give you more history on the Phoenix. I am sure that he still had many of the plans and photos of the Phoenix. His widow has a mental problem and will not show or give up anything.
I would sure like to sit in that car one more time, and pretend to drive.
Jim Bell</HTML>
My dad, Allan F. Bell, an engineer (University of Michigan) worked on that project at Mc Culloch. As a Kid, I spent many hours at the Mc Culloch plant on Century Bl. in L.A, pretending to drive the Phoenix.
I always found the Phoenix to be a little odd. Maybe it was because I could not understand how such a small, plain looking engine could power such a beautiful car. The ONLY engine to ever power it was the four cylinder Porsche. The ONLY engine design that I ever heard of that was intended to become the future power plant was a Steam engine.
There was a working Paxton prototype steam powered rolling chassis. As I remember it, it had a perimiter frame and the steam power plant took up the front, with tubes, pipes and stuff running everywhere. There was no body. It's been a long time, but I remember that the first drive shaft twisted due to the high torque at low RPM. I know because I was the passenger, my dad the driver.
Abner Doble was brought in as a consultant on the project. Aber did not come alone, he brought one of his Steam cars. Sitting on my dad's lap, I got to drive the streets of Westchester in a Doble. Abner and my father became great friends and both knew that the Steam powered Phoenix was not the future. My dad explained it to me in engineering terms that as I remember came down to something this. In a Steam engine, Oil and Water should not mix, but it cannot be stopped. However, Robert Paxton Mc Culloch, who was also quite an engineer did not give up easy, or cheaply. I know that at least one million dollars was spent on the project.
When the project ended, the Phoenix was moved across the street to what was Mc Culloch's version of Skunk Works. Years later, Mc Culloch sold his company to Black & Decker. He asked my dad to come with him and run his new Skunk Works a few miles away. There my dad assembled a team that could design and build just about anything. The Phoenix also made the trip, but I do not remember that the prototype chassis was brought there. Among the secret projects there, was a electric car. The boss with the initials, RPM, liked cars.
My dad worked on the motor controller design, which is probably the second most important part of a electric car. He also worked on the most important part, the battery design. Again, my dad knew that electric was not the future, at least not until a major break thru in battery technology, which he and his team could not accomplish.
When Bob Mc Culloch died, his family gave my dad first pick of anything that was up for auction. I wish he would have taken the Phoenix. My dad was interviewed by the L.A. Times for a story on the auction. The article included a photo of my dad and the Phoenix.
My dad passed away over a year ago. Till the end, his memory was incredible. I wish he could have been the one to give you more history on the Phoenix. I am sure that he still had many of the plans and photos of the Phoenix. His widow has a mental problem and will not show or give up anything.
I would sure like to sit in that car one more time, and pretend to drive.
Jim Bell</HTML>
Re: Paxton Phoenix-story
Posted by: Myron Vernis (IP Logged)
Date: September 02, 2005 09:32AM
<HTML>Jim,
Thanks for your great post. Your history adds a great deal to what I have learned about the Phoenix. In my documentation, I have some correspondence signed by your father.
If you ever find yourself in the Northeast Ohio arae, you are welcome to come and drive the car.
Regards,
Myron</HTML>
Thanks for your great post. Your history adds a great deal to what I have learned about the Phoenix. In my documentation, I have some correspondence signed by your father.
If you ever find yourself in the Northeast Ohio arae, you are welcome to come and drive the car.
Regards,
Myron</HTML>
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