1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: Damijan Ruzic (IP Logged)
Date: August 12, 2004 03:33PM
<HTML>Dear gentlemen,
I am relatively new in this phorum, but I am not new in engineering. To be honest, I learned a lot from you, reading articles and answers.
I am working on C.R.M. - Centrycal rotary engine with foldable fins, the engine what could be realised in I.C. or E.C. variations, so steam or stirling inclooded. The fact is that I can certainly say, undersign and defend some facts :
- 1. EVERY internal combustion engine (together with exhaust system) is nothing but a boiler or heater for external combustion engine.
- 2. Conseqvently every combination of internal combustion engine and external combustion engine will work more efficiently than any of them separately. Energy efficiency eqvation is a result of income energy multiplied by energy efficiency factor of I.C. engine plus rest of energy multiplied by energy efficiency of E.C. engine in seccond stage...
- 3. The best way for recycling waste energy from I.C. engine is to capture this energy in liqvid and expand this liqvid to get propeling power.
These 3 facts are postulates in my opinion.
However, we can still build steam engines and let " those other guys" build
I.C. engines, but the fact is that we need each other badly and the best way is to make compound engines. Even I.C. - steam - electro engine combinations of many kinds could be build to increase efficiency and there are many feasible ways and combinations.
Let me ask you a qvestion- How strong is a small steam engine comunity today? Presuming there is a will and honesty - can we put all of our money and brains together and ask for some financial suport and produce some worthwile model to show it to the world and say- here it is and we are wright. Tomorrow we will have combined I.C. - steam engines running in our cars, trains and boats if we wish to drive on one gallon per 60 miles consumption. The fact is that we have in one wehichle 3 engines running -
one is main engine propeling the wehichle, another is eqvaly strong engine- the cooling system, working hard to heat our globe and the third is exhaust system - eqvaly strong and working eqvaly hard on same wain task. Only thing we have to do is to convert one of these 2 remaining engines in one propeling engine and steam is seemingly the only way to do it. So, gentlemen, approx. 50% fosil fuel consumption reduction is in our hands, lett we do see what we can do.
Damijan Ruzic</HTML>
I am relatively new in this phorum, but I am not new in engineering. To be honest, I learned a lot from you, reading articles and answers.
I am working on C.R.M. - Centrycal rotary engine with foldable fins, the engine what could be realised in I.C. or E.C. variations, so steam or stirling inclooded. The fact is that I can certainly say, undersign and defend some facts :
- 1. EVERY internal combustion engine (together with exhaust system) is nothing but a boiler or heater for external combustion engine.
- 2. Conseqvently every combination of internal combustion engine and external combustion engine will work more efficiently than any of them separately. Energy efficiency eqvation is a result of income energy multiplied by energy efficiency factor of I.C. engine plus rest of energy multiplied by energy efficiency of E.C. engine in seccond stage...
- 3. The best way for recycling waste energy from I.C. engine is to capture this energy in liqvid and expand this liqvid to get propeling power.
These 3 facts are postulates in my opinion.
However, we can still build steam engines and let " those other guys" build
I.C. engines, but the fact is that we need each other badly and the best way is to make compound engines. Even I.C. - steam - electro engine combinations of many kinds could be build to increase efficiency and there are many feasible ways and combinations.
Let me ask you a qvestion- How strong is a small steam engine comunity today? Presuming there is a will and honesty - can we put all of our money and brains together and ask for some financial suport and produce some worthwile model to show it to the world and say- here it is and we are wright. Tomorrow we will have combined I.C. - steam engines running in our cars, trains and boats if we wish to drive on one gallon per 60 miles consumption. The fact is that we have in one wehichle 3 engines running -
one is main engine propeling the wehichle, another is eqvaly strong engine- the cooling system, working hard to heat our globe and the third is exhaust system - eqvaly strong and working eqvaly hard on same wain task. Only thing we have to do is to convert one of these 2 remaining engines in one propeling engine and steam is seemingly the only way to do it. So, gentlemen, approx. 50% fosil fuel consumption reduction is in our hands, lett we do see what we can do.
Damijan Ruzic</HTML>
Re: Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: August 12, 2004 06:52PM
<HTML>There 2 problems I see with hybred IC - Steam systems.
IC engines combustin generates more poloution. The IC part would still need all the wizbang contraptions to control poloution.
Performance. Most people wont performance in their vehicals. Hybreds generally take a lot more space and add weight that reduces performance. One could get very high efficiency out of a steam engine given enough space. I am not so sure that a steam engine can not equal or better a hybred in efficiency if both take equal space.
Andy</HTML>
IC engines combustin generates more poloution. The IC part would still need all the wizbang contraptions to control poloution.
Performance. Most people wont performance in their vehicals. Hybreds generally take a lot more space and add weight that reduces performance. One could get very high efficiency out of a steam engine given enough space. I am not so sure that a steam engine can not equal or better a hybred in efficiency if both take equal space.
Andy</HTML>
Re: Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: Graeme Vagg (IP Logged)
Date: August 13, 2004 03:25AM
<HTML>Damijan,
Bottom cycle steam engines or turbines have been built to run on waste heat from internal combustion engines or gas turbines and do improve overall efficiency. Use has mainly been for ship propulsion where the fuel savings can be a significant amount. With a private car, the savings may only be marginal in dollar terms and the break even period would depend on the extra cost of the additional parts. Large trucks and buses could be a better target market.
An inventor capable of working out a viable system would also need to be able to build a demonstrate unit to verify the theory and measure the improvements. It would then need to be compared with all the other available technologies on the road or waiting in research labs for a market opportunity determined by rising fuel costs, world fuel supply problems, manufacturing costs and consumer demand. Picking an outright winner in a world that has an oversupply of car engines of all types is no mean challenge.
A target fuel economy of the equivalent to 60 miles per US gallon is a realistic starting point but expect plenty of competition around this level.
I don't think the steam hobby people can focus on a single goal to do as you suggest. There are too many different ways to do something and you won't get agreement. Time and money will also beat them. You need a lot of resources to be able to work faster and smarter that the big auto makers and achieve a significant advantage. If you come up with something workable and they like it, someone will outspend you and beat you in the market place with something marginally better (say smaller, lighter, cheaper, prettier etc.)
If you have a rich relative, or won a big heap of money in a lottery, just go for it.
Graeme</HTML>
Bottom cycle steam engines or turbines have been built to run on waste heat from internal combustion engines or gas turbines and do improve overall efficiency. Use has mainly been for ship propulsion where the fuel savings can be a significant amount. With a private car, the savings may only be marginal in dollar terms and the break even period would depend on the extra cost of the additional parts. Large trucks and buses could be a better target market.
An inventor capable of working out a viable system would also need to be able to build a demonstrate unit to verify the theory and measure the improvements. It would then need to be compared with all the other available technologies on the road or waiting in research labs for a market opportunity determined by rising fuel costs, world fuel supply problems, manufacturing costs and consumer demand. Picking an outright winner in a world that has an oversupply of car engines of all types is no mean challenge.
A target fuel economy of the equivalent to 60 miles per US gallon is a realistic starting point but expect plenty of competition around this level.
I don't think the steam hobby people can focus on a single goal to do as you suggest. There are too many different ways to do something and you won't get agreement. Time and money will also beat them. You need a lot of resources to be able to work faster and smarter that the big auto makers and achieve a significant advantage. If you come up with something workable and they like it, someone will outspend you and beat you in the market place with something marginally better (say smaller, lighter, cheaper, prettier etc.)
If you have a rich relative, or won a big heap of money in a lottery, just go for it.
Graeme</HTML>
Re: Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: Damijan Ruzic (IP Logged)
Date: August 13, 2004 03:28AM
<HTML>Dear Andy,
I solved myny problems regarding this qvestion before I decided to show up in these sides.
1. Polution of engine depends on 3 factors - 1. fuel used, 2. qvantity of fuel used and 3. the way this fuel burns.
I.C. engine is problematic only in factor 3., otherwise it is. O.K., ading steam engine to it makes it more efficient, so less fuel is consumpted and lower consumption opens new feasibilities, so for instance ethanol or other clean fuel...
2. Hybrids do not need more space if they are designed properly. For instance you can opem my side www.drustvo-crm.si and you will see me with 100 PS model of 3 stroke engine, eqvaly strong steam C.R.M. is double smaller, so 100 PS engine could be designed within shoebox size.
One single engine can not eqval properly build hybrid, becouse things go this way -
You put 300.000 J/s (equals 300.000W) into system. presuming 33,3%
system efficiency (solid car diesel or fine steam small system), you will get
100.000 W power output. In the steam engine you can capture, say, 30.000 J/S and use them in air heating and fuel heating, so you finaly have
330.000 J/s income and 110.000 W output, but if you use a hybrid you will have- 100.000 W main engine output, 66.000 W steam engine output and perhaps, some 10.000 W in the 3 rd stage, plus some car heating feasibility, so in the end of the day you finish up with more than 180.000 W, so number uneqvaled by any other engine. Well, if we improove one system efficiency, even better we improove al of the system efficiency.
I am working hard to produce steam engine in small steam system, working with more than 50% efficiency, but I would not hesitate to use it in both ways, alone and in connection with I.C. engine, knowing that hybrid would have superior efficiency.
Damijan</HTML>
I solved myny problems regarding this qvestion before I decided to show up in these sides.
1. Polution of engine depends on 3 factors - 1. fuel used, 2. qvantity of fuel used and 3. the way this fuel burns.
I.C. engine is problematic only in factor 3., otherwise it is. O.K., ading steam engine to it makes it more efficient, so less fuel is consumpted and lower consumption opens new feasibilities, so for instance ethanol or other clean fuel...
2. Hybrids do not need more space if they are designed properly. For instance you can opem my side www.drustvo-crm.si and you will see me with 100 PS model of 3 stroke engine, eqvaly strong steam C.R.M. is double smaller, so 100 PS engine could be designed within shoebox size.
One single engine can not eqval properly build hybrid, becouse things go this way -
You put 300.000 J/s (equals 300.000W) into system. presuming 33,3%
system efficiency (solid car diesel or fine steam small system), you will get
100.000 W power output. In the steam engine you can capture, say, 30.000 J/S and use them in air heating and fuel heating, so you finaly have
330.000 J/s income and 110.000 W output, but if you use a hybrid you will have- 100.000 W main engine output, 66.000 W steam engine output and perhaps, some 10.000 W in the 3 rd stage, plus some car heating feasibility, so in the end of the day you finish up with more than 180.000 W, so number uneqvaled by any other engine. Well, if we improove one system efficiency, even better we improove al of the system efficiency.
I am working hard to produce steam engine in small steam system, working with more than 50% efficiency, but I would not hesitate to use it in both ways, alone and in connection with I.C. engine, knowing that hybrid would have superior efficiency.
Damijan</HTML>
Re: Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: August 13, 2004 04:22AM
<HTML> In an automotive steam engine you are limited as to the exhaust pressure. Generally atmosphereic. You simply do not have enough room for a large enough condenser to pull a vacume. So your low side is fixed. To get the max efficiency out of a steam engine you must go to as high a pressure and temperature as meterials can stand. Or is pratical money wise. Utilizing the rejected heat from an IC engine limits the efficiency of a steam engines to maybe 8 to 10 percent. You can improve over all efficiency but not in the ratios you think. It is very hard if not impossable to even get the 33.3% you sugest.
Ic engines do not get anyware near their max efficiency under normal road conditions. MAX IC engine efficiency is only achieved at high power levels and in a very nerow band. At low power were most of your driving is occuring an IC's efficiency is 1/3 to 1/2 it's peak. A steam engine on the other hand is jus the opsite. At low power you run short cutoff and the efficiency is much higher then at long cutoff that you use starting from a stop and accelerating.
A good atationary steam plant can achieve as high as 60% efficiency. It takes up a lot of space. In an automobile you are doing good to get 15% peak efficiency out of a steam plant. You are just space limited.
Your best bet as a Hybred IC electric system. That way you can run the IC at it best efficiency generating electricity and electric moters will turn better then 90% of it into useful work.
Andy</HTML>
Ic engines do not get anyware near their max efficiency under normal road conditions. MAX IC engine efficiency is only achieved at high power levels and in a very nerow band. At low power were most of your driving is occuring an IC's efficiency is 1/3 to 1/2 it's peak. A steam engine on the other hand is jus the opsite. At low power you run short cutoff and the efficiency is much higher then at long cutoff that you use starting from a stop and accelerating.
A good atationary steam plant can achieve as high as 60% efficiency. It takes up a lot of space. In an automobile you are doing good to get 15% peak efficiency out of a steam plant. You are just space limited.
Your best bet as a Hybred IC electric system. That way you can run the IC at it best efficiency generating electricity and electric moters will turn better then 90% of it into useful work.
Andy</HTML>
Re: Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: August 13, 2004 04:22AM
<HTML> In an automotive steam engine you are limited as to the exhaust pressure. Generally atmosphereic. You simply do not have enough room for a large enough condenser to pull a vacume. So your low side is fixed. To get the max efficiency out of a steam engine you must go to as high a pressure and temperature as meterials can stand. Or is pratical money wise. Utilizing the rejected heat from an IC engine limits the efficiency of a steam engines to maybe 8 to 10 percent. You can improve over all efficiency but not in the ratios you think. It is very hard if not impossable to even get the 33.3% you sugest.
Ic engines do not get anyware near their max efficiency under normal road conditions. MAX IC engine efficiency is only achieved at high power levels and in a very nerow band. At low power were most of your driving is occuring an IC's efficiency is 1/3 to 1/2 it's peak. A steam engine on the other hand is jus the opsite. At low power you run short cutoff and the efficiency is much higher then at long cutoff that you use starting from a stop and accelerating.
A good atationary steam plant can achieve as high as 60% efficiency. It takes up a lot of space. In an automobile you are doing good to get 15% peak efficiency out of a steam plant. You are just space limited.
Your best bet as a Hybred IC electric system. That way you can run the IC at it best efficiency generating electricity and electric moters will turn better then 90% of it into useful work.
Andy</HTML>
Ic engines do not get anyware near their max efficiency under normal road conditions. MAX IC engine efficiency is only achieved at high power levels and in a very nerow band. At low power were most of your driving is occuring an IC's efficiency is 1/3 to 1/2 it's peak. A steam engine on the other hand is jus the opsite. At low power you run short cutoff and the efficiency is much higher then at long cutoff that you use starting from a stop and accelerating.
A good atationary steam plant can achieve as high as 60% efficiency. It takes up a lot of space. In an automobile you are doing good to get 15% peak efficiency out of a steam plant. You are just space limited.
Your best bet as a Hybred IC electric system. That way you can run the IC at it best efficiency generating electricity and electric moters will turn better then 90% of it into useful work.
Andy</HTML>
Re: Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: Damijan Ruzic (IP Logged)
Date: August 13, 2004 12:32PM
<HTML>Well, Andy,
It is important to realise that we all have knowledge, ideas, information but also prejudice. However, we started to talk and we are talking now.
The main reason for low owerall I.C. engine effectivity is low loading ratio in general. If engine is highly loaded in low revolution regime its efficiency is high just like in high revolution ratio with similar high load. Solid Diesel can exceed 33.3 %efficiency. However steam system efficiency depends on boiler efficiency, steam engine efficiency and energy recycling. Here we have an I.C. engine and exhaust system for a boiler. Burning temperature is fantastic in I.C. engine, so we have fantastic heat exchange due to high thermal difference, We can estimate steam engine efficiency also by observing steam income heat level, and steam here could be very hot, yes and last but not least, the condenser. Condenser is nothing but a radiator, with skilfull design we can make something not much bigger than current car radiator and we can even use waste heat to heat our car in vinter, you can bid that we can. The system of steam boiler, steam engine and steam condenser can be relatively small with high flow or it could be big and steam steady, it has not much to do with efficiency, we must observe heat and pressure difference of steam in one side of steam engine and another to get efficiency estimation, plus we must see how we design steam engine.
Electro engine is very important part of such hybrid engine as well, it is responsible for qvick cold start and energy management, even more it can replace gearbox, so go on with it.
Weight estimation is following - I.C. engine for one half of current I.C. engine, steam system for another half of I.C. engine, Condenser for heat exchanger, el. engine for manual gearbox, 2 extra batteries for half of fuel tank. We are in the same weight level.
Yes, and another thing, C.R.M. with adjustable chamber size have similar efficiency as the best 2 or 3 stage steam engine, so multiply boiler efficiency (approx.85% with solid steam engine efficiency and you can see
result of steam part efficiency).
Best regards,
Damijan Ruzic</HTML>
It is important to realise that we all have knowledge, ideas, information but also prejudice. However, we started to talk and we are talking now.
The main reason for low owerall I.C. engine effectivity is low loading ratio in general. If engine is highly loaded in low revolution regime its efficiency is high just like in high revolution ratio with similar high load. Solid Diesel can exceed 33.3 %efficiency. However steam system efficiency depends on boiler efficiency, steam engine efficiency and energy recycling. Here we have an I.C. engine and exhaust system for a boiler. Burning temperature is fantastic in I.C. engine, so we have fantastic heat exchange due to high thermal difference, We can estimate steam engine efficiency also by observing steam income heat level, and steam here could be very hot, yes and last but not least, the condenser. Condenser is nothing but a radiator, with skilfull design we can make something not much bigger than current car radiator and we can even use waste heat to heat our car in vinter, you can bid that we can. The system of steam boiler, steam engine and steam condenser can be relatively small with high flow or it could be big and steam steady, it has not much to do with efficiency, we must observe heat and pressure difference of steam in one side of steam engine and another to get efficiency estimation, plus we must see how we design steam engine.
Electro engine is very important part of such hybrid engine as well, it is responsible for qvick cold start and energy management, even more it can replace gearbox, so go on with it.
Weight estimation is following - I.C. engine for one half of current I.C. engine, steam system for another half of I.C. engine, Condenser for heat exchanger, el. engine for manual gearbox, 2 extra batteries for half of fuel tank. We are in the same weight level.
Yes, and another thing, C.R.M. with adjustable chamber size have similar efficiency as the best 2 or 3 stage steam engine, so multiply boiler efficiency (approx.85% with solid steam engine efficiency and you can see
result of steam part efficiency).
Best regards,
Damijan Ruzic</HTML>
Re: Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: August 13, 2004 09:09PM
<HTML>Hi Damijan
Can you give more information on you C.R.M. ?
The point I was making is that the exhaust from an IC engine is fairly low temperature. You get heat from the water jacket as well. So far I have not heard of any one being able to run an IC engine with out cooling. Know of several attempts to design an IC engine that could run with out cylander cooling. It's efficiency would be much improved.
You still need a boiler of some sort to generate the steam. Running off the exhaust of an IC engine means that it is entirley convection heat transfer. A convection only boiler would be much larger then one using radiant heat from a burner. You will need to include that in your estimate. There are some stationary hybred IC steam power generating system already in use.
It is the space requirments that makes automotive power plants so hard to design. The IC engine has been king so long it is hard to get to it's stage of development.
Andy</HTML>
Can you give more information on you C.R.M. ?
The point I was making is that the exhaust from an IC engine is fairly low temperature. You get heat from the water jacket as well. So far I have not heard of any one being able to run an IC engine with out cooling. Know of several attempts to design an IC engine that could run with out cylander cooling. It's efficiency would be much improved.
You still need a boiler of some sort to generate the steam. Running off the exhaust of an IC engine means that it is entirley convection heat transfer. A convection only boiler would be much larger then one using radiant heat from a burner. You will need to include that in your estimate. There are some stationary hybred IC steam power generating system already in use.
It is the space requirments that makes automotive power plants so hard to design. The IC engine has been king so long it is hard to get to it's stage of development.
Andy</HTML>
Re: Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: Damijan Ruzic (IP Logged)
Date: August 14, 2004 03:45AM
<HTML>Dear Andy, C.R.M. is centrycal rotary engine with centrycaly running rotor and foldable vanes disposed in eqval distances. 4. vanes for 3 stroke I.C engine and 5 vanes for 4 stroke C.R.M., steam C.R.M. could have variable number of vanes, depending on construction and way of functioning. I can give you more information, but I am afraid that this space is too limited. If you give me your e.mail I can mail some drawings and descriptions to you.
C.R.M. in a Slovenian patent aplication, weiting for international patent aplication.
There we have a beauty of I.C. engine. It aloneself is a steam boiler and a radiator is energy consumer, if we use an engine body as water heater (what it realy is), exhaust system as steam owerheater (exhaust temperature is high, in some cases ower 900 degres C) we have all we need. The size of C.R.M. is realy small, actualy 100 PS device is smaller than a shoe box. If we have productive energy consumer instead of wasting one we have energy profit. Well, even I.C. engines could be much smaller, if you visit my side www.drustvo-crm.si you will see me holding 100PS 3 stroke engine model in front page and in picture gallery a body of 200 PS U.S.S piston engine. size is really small. Even I.C. engines are the victims of the state of the art and they could be much smaller. If we use I.C. C.R.M. as a first stage, steam C.R.M. as a seccond stage and el. engine in connection with them, we have a size of the tube, 1 m long and ,say, maximaly 12 inch in diametr, all together, say, 120 PS and no gearbox needed any longer. Do you like it in your car, after, say, 10 years and only one gallon ethanol per 60 miles?
Hybrids working in powerplants and ships make me feel even more secure that I am right.
Polites,
Damijan</HTML>
C.R.M. in a Slovenian patent aplication, weiting for international patent aplication.
There we have a beauty of I.C. engine. It aloneself is a steam boiler and a radiator is energy consumer, if we use an engine body as water heater (what it realy is), exhaust system as steam owerheater (exhaust temperature is high, in some cases ower 900 degres C) we have all we need. The size of C.R.M. is realy small, actualy 100 PS device is smaller than a shoe box. If we have productive energy consumer instead of wasting one we have energy profit. Well, even I.C. engines could be much smaller, if you visit my side www.drustvo-crm.si you will see me holding 100PS 3 stroke engine model in front page and in picture gallery a body of 200 PS U.S.S piston engine. size is really small. Even I.C. engines are the victims of the state of the art and they could be much smaller. If we use I.C. C.R.M. as a first stage, steam C.R.M. as a seccond stage and el. engine in connection with them, we have a size of the tube, 1 m long and ,say, maximaly 12 inch in diametr, all together, say, 120 PS and no gearbox needed any longer. Do you like it in your car, after, say, 10 years and only one gallon ethanol per 60 miles?
Hybrids working in powerplants and ships make me feel even more secure that I am right.
Polites,
Damijan</HTML>
Re: Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: August 16, 2004 12:30PM
<HTML>IC-Steam hybrid: look up Still engine, 1917. Reported efficiencies greater than 40%. Small number of these engines were built for marine and locomotive use as late as 1928.</HTML>
Re: Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: Damijan Ruzic (IP Logged)
Date: August 16, 2004 02:34PM
<HTML>Thanks a lot for this note, fellow, it is exactly what I wish to do, just in a little bit more modern way. There is arealy no stone unturned in steam engineering.
Best polites,
Damijan</HTML>
Best polites,
Damijan</HTML>
Re: Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: August 16, 2004 03:27PM
<HTML>Damijan
Hello, I too have thought through a lot on this idea of using the waste heat from a diesel to power a steam engine.
It's an attractive idea and does have possibilities, but for an automobile it's a long shot. The diesel cycle is inherently an efficient one because the combustion process takes place at 4,000 to 6,000 degrees F. A well designed diesel can get around 40% carnot efficiency running at full power. The exhaust from this engine is close to 1200 degrees F.
That is just about the maximum temperature needed to run a steam engine with 1,000 degree F inlet steam. If the condenser is at 200 degrees F and full expansion as a rotary could do the carnot efficiency would be in the area of 30%
So, we end up overall with an engine combination of 40% for the diesel plus 60% waste heat from the diesel times 30% from the steam engine, for a combined efficiency of 40% + 18% = 58%
58%! It sounds intreguing and it will drive a person crazy. We know that in a big stationary power plant we could probably pull it off. We probably could in an automobile also but the size of the condenser and the size of the boiler tubing would be prohibitive. Also the connection both mechanically and dynamically of the two separate engines that have very different torque and efficiency curves at varying throttle can get messy.
Overall the size and cost start to get way out of proportion. With innovative and expensive engineering we could lower the size of condenser and boiler and raise the cost of the automobile out of the market. Or we can use oversized boiler and condenser and a small trailer on the back of the car.
These are all the kind of tradeoffs that have to be considered in a total design and it seems not impossible but very difficult to put this particular combination of IC and steam engine together effectivly.
I'm not saying it can't be done but the design reaches a place where expensive building and testing has to be done in so many places that an average person, regardless of how much talent they have, has not the time and certainly not the money to pull it off.
Investors with their capital want to see a return on their investment and time constrants get in the way. Government funds become politics and innovation gets interfered with. Politicians make promises they never intend to keep. They, here at least, are totally run by the big corporations with a big investment to make sure you don't succeed.
Somewhere through all of this maze there may be a path, and if some of us join together we may find it. Remember the great Northwest Passage was only recently found by a small flotilla of rubber ducks, after hundreds of years looking for it. A shipping container full of rubber ducks went overboard in the north Pacific and quite a few of them ended up in the north Atlantic having found the Northwest Passage.
So enough small people swimming together may accomplish more than even we thought possible.
Please see the thread on rotarys in the other phorum.
What part of Ireland are you from Damijan?
Wishing you well-------------Bill G.</HTML>
Hello, I too have thought through a lot on this idea of using the waste heat from a diesel to power a steam engine.
It's an attractive idea and does have possibilities, but for an automobile it's a long shot. The diesel cycle is inherently an efficient one because the combustion process takes place at 4,000 to 6,000 degrees F. A well designed diesel can get around 40% carnot efficiency running at full power. The exhaust from this engine is close to 1200 degrees F.
That is just about the maximum temperature needed to run a steam engine with 1,000 degree F inlet steam. If the condenser is at 200 degrees F and full expansion as a rotary could do the carnot efficiency would be in the area of 30%
So, we end up overall with an engine combination of 40% for the diesel plus 60% waste heat from the diesel times 30% from the steam engine, for a combined efficiency of 40% + 18% = 58%
58%! It sounds intreguing and it will drive a person crazy. We know that in a big stationary power plant we could probably pull it off. We probably could in an automobile also but the size of the condenser and the size of the boiler tubing would be prohibitive. Also the connection both mechanically and dynamically of the two separate engines that have very different torque and efficiency curves at varying throttle can get messy.
Overall the size and cost start to get way out of proportion. With innovative and expensive engineering we could lower the size of condenser and boiler and raise the cost of the automobile out of the market. Or we can use oversized boiler and condenser and a small trailer on the back of the car.
These are all the kind of tradeoffs that have to be considered in a total design and it seems not impossible but very difficult to put this particular combination of IC and steam engine together effectivly.
I'm not saying it can't be done but the design reaches a place where expensive building and testing has to be done in so many places that an average person, regardless of how much talent they have, has not the time and certainly not the money to pull it off.
Investors with their capital want to see a return on their investment and time constrants get in the way. Government funds become politics and innovation gets interfered with. Politicians make promises they never intend to keep. They, here at least, are totally run by the big corporations with a big investment to make sure you don't succeed.
Somewhere through all of this maze there may be a path, and if some of us join together we may find it. Remember the great Northwest Passage was only recently found by a small flotilla of rubber ducks, after hundreds of years looking for it. A shipping container full of rubber ducks went overboard in the north Pacific and quite a few of them ended up in the north Atlantic having found the Northwest Passage.
So enough small people swimming together may accomplish more than even we thought possible.
Please see the thread on rotarys in the other phorum.
What part of Ireland are you from Damijan?
Wishing you well-------------Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Steam, concepts, cooperation.
Posted by: Damijan Ruzic (IP Logged)
Date: August 16, 2004 04:44PM
<HTML>Thank you Bill,
your consideration is reasonable, intelectual and sensitive. I must say I am not from Ireland, I am from Slovenia, ex part of northern Yugoslavia, very close to Austrian border.
Yes, you are right about many things, first of all, we can do a lot together and for sore there is a way. Enzo Ferari was a man of few words- Where is a problem? and How we are going to solve it? Only people of this kind can progres properly.
Dear Bill, the problems you have mentioned all have solutions, perhaps just everything can not be desplayed in public, but for sore remaining 60% can be used by more than 30%, my maximal estimation is approx. 50%, in real life call it 40, but they are here to be used one day. In any case Diesels, just like all other I.C. engines must be cooled and they have exhaust. Effectivenes of Diesel engine is high becouse of high compression ratio. If you see my web side www.drustvo-crm.si you can see me holding 100 PS + 3 stroke engine model in my hands (natural size), small basical engines are part of complete solution, lower number of parts means lower price. There is a place for simple steam C.R.M. in price calculation. Big industry is not suposed to be enemy, we should turn them into friends, it is not imposible. Just imagine for instance that you are runing electro motor producing company and you hear that in 10 years all cars will have 30 KW electro engines instead of gearboxes if you help one invent get viable? Well, a lot of thinks to talk about, and it will be enough time,
thank you for your sugestions,
Damijan</HTML>
your consideration is reasonable, intelectual and sensitive. I must say I am not from Ireland, I am from Slovenia, ex part of northern Yugoslavia, very close to Austrian border.
Yes, you are right about many things, first of all, we can do a lot together and for sore there is a way. Enzo Ferari was a man of few words- Where is a problem? and How we are going to solve it? Only people of this kind can progres properly.
Dear Bill, the problems you have mentioned all have solutions, perhaps just everything can not be desplayed in public, but for sore remaining 60% can be used by more than 30%, my maximal estimation is approx. 50%, in real life call it 40, but they are here to be used one day. In any case Diesels, just like all other I.C. engines must be cooled and they have exhaust. Effectivenes of Diesel engine is high becouse of high compression ratio. If you see my web side www.drustvo-crm.si you can see me holding 100 PS + 3 stroke engine model in my hands (natural size), small basical engines are part of complete solution, lower number of parts means lower price. There is a place for simple steam C.R.M. in price calculation. Big industry is not suposed to be enemy, we should turn them into friends, it is not imposible. Just imagine for instance that you are runing electro motor producing company and you hear that in 10 years all cars will have 30 KW electro engines instead of gearboxes if you help one invent get viable? Well, a lot of thinks to talk about, and it will be enough time,
thank you for your sugestions,
Damijan</HTML>
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