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More on 10HP ringless pistons
Posted by: Gary Hoonsbeen (IP Logged)
Date: February 24, 2005 01:57AM
<HTML>As I reported earlier, the pistons in my 10 HP Stanley Engine, #0 685, did not have rings or grooves in which rings could be installed. There were four slots cut into the pistions at 0.190" and 0.465" from each end which were 0.030" wide and about 0.075" deep.
There was no evidence that the two pistons had been "home-made."
As everyone knows, the pistons themself are hollow, being made in two parts. The seam between these two halfs was faintly visable. Because the pistons were hollow, there was a concern about cutting proper depth grooves in which rings could be fitted.
The first task was to find rings. Paul Weaver's Garage, a well known antique car ring supplier, came up with a perfect set for this engine: 3" diameter, Step-gaps, 0.123" wide and a thickness of the same 0.123".
With some simple arithmatic it was determined the rings could be fitted to the pistions as close as 0.090" from the top (or bottom) of the pistons and come up to the cylinder steam ports without overlapping the ports. The thought was that the closer to the edge of the piston the more likely there would be enough iron for the needed ring depth without breaking through.
In this case I cut the grooves 0.130" in from the top and bottom edges of each piston, to the close edge of each ring groove. The grooves were cut 0.1245" wide and 0.135" deep. The metal WAS thick enough to accept the depth.
Because, apparently, nobody has ever seen a 10 HP Stanley engine without piston rings, this report may not help anyone, but I think a few of you might find it interesting. In another year the "E2" Stanley may be on the road and the results should determine if there are any flaws.
Any comments?</HTML>
There was no evidence that the two pistons had been "home-made."
As everyone knows, the pistons themself are hollow, being made in two parts. The seam between these two halfs was faintly visable. Because the pistons were hollow, there was a concern about cutting proper depth grooves in which rings could be fitted.
The first task was to find rings. Paul Weaver's Garage, a well known antique car ring supplier, came up with a perfect set for this engine: 3" diameter, Step-gaps, 0.123" wide and a thickness of the same 0.123".
With some simple arithmatic it was determined the rings could be fitted to the pistions as close as 0.090" from the top (or bottom) of the pistons and come up to the cylinder steam ports without overlapping the ports. The thought was that the closer to the edge of the piston the more likely there would be enough iron for the needed ring depth without breaking through.
In this case I cut the grooves 0.130" in from the top and bottom edges of each piston, to the close edge of each ring groove. The grooves were cut 0.1245" wide and 0.135" deep. The metal WAS thick enough to accept the depth.
Because, apparently, nobody has ever seen a 10 HP Stanley engine without piston rings, this report may not help anyone, but I think a few of you might find it interesting. In another year the "E2" Stanley may be on the road and the results should determine if there are any flaws.
Any comments?</HTML>
Re: More on 10HP ringless pistons
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: February 24, 2005 12:03PM
<HTML>Hi Gary,,,Just curious,, do your cylender heads { caps] have a flat filed to line up with the ports,,Good to hear you have found success w/ fitting rings,,The more you get familiar wite these early fragile engines,,you get to appreciate the fine line Stanley Bros followed to keep the cars light,,no doubt they rememberd Sylvester Roper's very lightweight examples,,and the lightness was a secret of their success,,Hope its warmer over there,,Its a big O here at 7am,,and ocean temp is 38f,,,Hi George,,just thot you'd like to know 80 '' snow so far,and season is headed for 100+ says the morning forecast just now,, ,,haha Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re:10 HP piston
Posted by: Gary Hoonsbeen (IP Logged)
Date: February 24, 2005 04:02PM
<HTML>Ben: Good to hear from you. I still plan on calling you one of these days.
The pistons are flat, top and bottom. The cylinder screw-on head plates do, however, have a chamfer. I expect some shimming must be done to make sure this chamfer is located over the port when tightened. Is there a gasket that nomrally fitted to these covers? What about a sealing compond for the threads?
Gary</HTML>
The pistons are flat, top and bottom. The cylinder screw-on head plates do, however, have a chamfer. I expect some shimming must be done to make sure this chamfer is located over the port when tightened. Is there a gasket that nomrally fitted to these covers? What about a sealing compond for the threads?
Gary</HTML>
Re:10 HP piston
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: February 24, 2005 04:35PM
<HTML>There isn't a flat gasket fitted to the cylinder end caps. A packing is used in the grooves in the caps. Read on... Jim Keith writes: For a number of years I searched for a packing which would replace the old asbestos type laced with inconel wire to use in Stanley cylinder caps. Dan Strubel, engineer at John Crane, recommended a variety of packings. I tried them all. None withstood temperatures and pressures in my Stanley engine’s end caps- the ones which did resist having a section blow out soon leaked a fair amount of steam. Yes, I tried Kevlar which I do use in drive rod and valve packings. Then when again speaking with Mr. Strubel, he suggested trying the packing listed below which seems to do the job very well. JNO Crane Packing style item 3871, 0.125 PRT#0125RSP777 Packing, Braided Square Braid 3871, 0.125” inconel wire inserted “S2” contains chopped S2 fibers – Highly Lubricated sealing surface. Good to +1200 degree Fahrenheit and steam pressure to 4,300 psi. The cost is about $1 a foot. Contact John Crane, Inc., 6500 Morton Grove, Ill. 60053-0805 Telephone 800-732-5464
The grooves in the end caps are approximately 1/8”, but in places the threads continue into the groove interfering a bit with seating of the packing. I machined all end caps to have a full, clean 1/8” all the way around. This did improve the seating of the packing, but whether or not it was needed in the end when the #3871 packing was used is not yet known. Cut the ends of the packing on the bias for a better seal.</HTML>
The grooves in the end caps are approximately 1/8”, but in places the threads continue into the groove interfering a bit with seating of the packing. I machined all end caps to have a full, clean 1/8” all the way around. This did improve the seating of the packing, but whether or not it was needed in the end when the #3871 packing was used is not yet known. Cut the ends of the packing on the bias for a better seal.</HTML>
Re:10 HP piston
Posted by: Tim Senior (IP Logged)
Date: February 24, 2005 06:36PM
<HTML>Whilst at a rally some time ago I got a leaky end cap, 10HP type 63.
To keep me running I resealed it with hemp and manganese dioxide high temperature compo. No problems at all and I have not bothered to replace the seal. My only problem at the moment is will I be able to unscrew the cover at a later date?</HTML>
To keep me running I resealed it with hemp and manganese dioxide high temperature compo. No problems at all and I have not bothered to replace the seal. My only problem at the moment is will I be able to unscrew the cover at a later date?</HTML>
Re: piston / head -- seal
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: February 25, 2005 12:31AM
<HTML>IF,,,IF the thread and ,, the end of the cylender surface are at right angle and smooth, ,they should fit as a gas engine VALVE,,,,no packing req'd, Packing is needed only when the work is not perfect. Prefer doing thread and seal surface in one setup,,,be careful of goo,,as it may set up solid on the thread !!! nott nice at all ,,,There is a hi temp silicone rubber??? stuff sold at auto stores.that stands a LOT of heat,, Color ORANGE,,, I have used it on the BURNER of the racer around the pilot !!! IF you need a gasket to get by,,.040 roofing copper is a good source,, theres also a thinner .010 ,, but sometimes its got a plastic coating on it,,dont forget copper may need to be annealed if it's been worked much,, and the stuff can be dangerous to cut,, be careful,,, Fun in springtime is comming I can tell ',',',' '' ,, '' '''' '' ,The mood is Richard Zimmmerman playing Joplin ,,,1895 was a good year for Joplin ,, Who wouldd '''a guessed ,, Has annyone found a pedal Harpsichord for me [ yet] ,, Now where did I leave off,,, C h ee r s , B e n , 'dum dum ta ta dn'n' ta' ta' [ragg] [</HTML>
<b>Re: piston / head -- seal + harpsichord news</b>
Posted by: JW (IP Logged)
Date: February 25, 2005 06:13AM
<HTML>Ben-
Here is a link to a harpsichord 4 sale cheap!
[www.craigslist.org]
Here is the contact info:
Alan 925 639-4677 1900 Camino Verde apartments, Walnut Creek, 94597
JW
</HTML>
Here is a link to a harpsichord 4 sale cheap!
[www.craigslist.org]
Here is the contact info:
Alan 925 639-4677 1900 Camino Verde apartments, Walnut Creek, 94597
JW
</HTML>
Re: piston / head -- seal
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: February 25, 2005 01:20PM
<HTML>Thanks John,,Your site never fails to amaize me for what info can be found here,,as well as what friends find a common interest in, Amongst these pages are a very special group of technical people, called our friends ,,,Thanks again,,Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: More on 10HP ringless pistons
Posted by: (IP Logged)
Date: February 25, 2005 06:01PM
<HTML>Dear Gary, you are writing that Paul Weaver's Garage is a well known supplier for piston rings. I am looking for piston rings in the old shape for my Locomobile.with 2 1/2" OD and in an eccentric form with overlapping ends.
Please send his address to me.
Thanks, Peter Wueringer from Vienna, Austria, Europe</HTML>
Please send his address to me.
Thanks, Peter Wueringer from Vienna, Austria, Europe</HTML>
Re: Weaver Garage
Posted by: Gary Hoonsbeen (IP Logged)
Date: February 26, 2005 07:01PM
<HTML>Herr Wuringer:
Paul Weaver has been suppling rings for engines as long as I have been in the hobby. I am sure there are several other sources but he is very easy to deal with and has lots of knowledge.
Paul Weaver Garage
680 Sylvan Way
Bremerton WA 98310
phone 360-373-7870
Das est allis.
Gary</HTML>
Paul Weaver has been suppling rings for engines as long as I have been in the hobby. I am sure there are several other sources but he is very easy to deal with and has lots of knowledge.
Paul Weaver Garage
680 Sylvan Way
Bremerton WA 98310
phone 360-373-7870
Das est allis.
Gary</HTML>
Re: Head packing
Posted by: David K. Nergaard (IP Logged)
Date: February 27, 2005 03:32PM
<HTML>I have been using Viton O-rings to seal the cylinder heads on my engine for about a decade. They are not rated for the temperature, but stay flexible until they are seated. After that, it doesn't matter if they ossify, they stay tight.</HTML>
Re: Weaver Garage
Posted by: (IP Logged)
Date: March 11, 2005 07:06AM
<HTML>Thanks for the address, I also got an e-mail-adress but there is no reüly, please help again.
Greatings from Vienna, Austria, Europe, Peter</HTML>
Greatings from Vienna, Austria, Europe, Peter</HTML>
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