1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Boiler Veins
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 25, 2002 12:36AM
<HTML>Boiler health, I found, is related to human health when it comes to blockages to flow and their remedies. Chelation (Kee-lay-shun) is the incorporation of a metal or other substance in to a heterocyclic ring. The chelating agent is normally a colloid, a tiny particles that forms a colloidal with water, not a true solution. Starch is the colloid most people are familar with, even if not familar with the term. A chelating agent floats around in the form of an incomplete cyclic ring waiting to be electrochemically satisified by incorpating a metal into its structure an acheiving a neutral charge while completing the ring. When incorporation forms a closed ring, the incorporated metal looses its properties and assumes those of the ring it is now part of. The ring , being neutral, will not easily bond to similar metals or its containing vessel. Human chelation procedures were developed in Russia for the treatment of toxic metal poisioning in 1931 using EDTA. EDTA (ethylene diamine tetraacetic acid), a non toxic amino acid often used as a food preservative, was the first successful treatment for lead poisioning of any sort. Since then EDTA has been used for the effective removal of radiation and calcium deposits such as kidney stones, prosthetic calcinosis and clacific bursitis. The most common use is for the removal of atherosclerotic plaques, the goo that blocks blood vessels and is the cause of occlusive vascular diease. Though not officially recognized by our cash cow medical system, many countries use EDTA chelation for the treatment of stroke, senility, blood vessel diease, kidney trouble and other degenerative dieases with great success.
Yes I know, you don't run steam through your veins and you can't blow down your kidneys so why on the steam forum you ask ? Well way back in the early days of steam, some workers tending Watts steam machine were in the habit of cooking potatos in the boiler. One day they apparently were interupted from their dinner and forgot the potatos in the boiler. Two weeks hence, they discovered to their amasement, the potatoes kept the boiler much cleaner and any deposits were mushy and easily removed. This was the first use of a chelating agent, discovered by accident, the most common method of discovery. By 1820 it was common to add 1 to 2% of potatos to feed water. The most frequently used colloids for boiler theropy are tannins, starch and casein. The use of chelating colloids for boiler water treatment may not prevent the accumulation of deposits but it will slow the process and make the deposits easier to remove during cleaning.
Again I must wonder about the use of a cathodic treatment to provide boiler protection. The accumulation of deposits, as with metalic corrosion, requires ion availability to occurr and a cathodic devise can prevent this.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Yes I know, you don't run steam through your veins and you can't blow down your kidneys so why on the steam forum you ask ? Well way back in the early days of steam, some workers tending Watts steam machine were in the habit of cooking potatos in the boiler. One day they apparently were interupted from their dinner and forgot the potatos in the boiler. Two weeks hence, they discovered to their amasement, the potatoes kept the boiler much cleaner and any deposits were mushy and easily removed. This was the first use of a chelating agent, discovered by accident, the most common method of discovery. By 1820 it was common to add 1 to 2% of potatos to feed water. The most frequently used colloids for boiler theropy are tannins, starch and casein. The use of chelating colloids for boiler water treatment may not prevent the accumulation of deposits but it will slow the process and make the deposits easier to remove during cleaning.
Again I must wonder about the use of a cathodic treatment to provide boiler protection. The accumulation of deposits, as with metalic corrosion, requires ion availability to occurr and a cathodic devise can prevent this.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Boiler Veins
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 25, 2002 06:47AM
<HTML>Hi Peter,
Somewhere I read about a cathodic device, from Enertec I think, which was tried on at least one light steam system. Reportedly this was as simple as clamping something onto the outside of the boiler feed water inlet pipe. This was claimed to keep the boiler sparkling clean inside, and reportedly scale came out as white flecks _in the engine exhaust_! Now personally I don't want to think of what scale flecks would do to an engine! Better to catch them, along with water slugs and what have you, in a cyclonic scale trap between right at the boiler outlet. Then set up the trap for blowdown -- in fact, do the whole-boiler blowdown (at least from top) thru this. A few monotube users have recommended this approach; evidently all kinds of "what have you" can blow out of a tube stack, and no es el funno in el engino, as they say in "tourist spanish".
Peter</HTML>
Somewhere I read about a cathodic device, from Enertec I think, which was tried on at least one light steam system. Reportedly this was as simple as clamping something onto the outside of the boiler feed water inlet pipe. This was claimed to keep the boiler sparkling clean inside, and reportedly scale came out as white flecks _in the engine exhaust_! Now personally I don't want to think of what scale flecks would do to an engine! Better to catch them, along with water slugs and what have you, in a cyclonic scale trap between right at the boiler outlet. Then set up the trap for blowdown -- in fact, do the whole-boiler blowdown (at least from top) thru this. A few monotube users have recommended this approach; evidently all kinds of "what have you" can blow out of a tube stack, and no es el funno in el engino, as they say in "tourist spanish".
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Veins
Posted by: Peter Heid (IP Logged)
Date: March 25, 2002 01:54PM
<HTML>Peter,
Thanx for the name, I will have to research it more. Your right, I was thinking of preventing any chunks from getting to the engine, sounds kind of messy otherwise. Just blowing it down would be fine. Sure would be nice to not have to worry about corrosion or scale by just making an electrical circuit out of your steam system. It works in theroy, and with little current draw !
Nothing like low cholosterol in the tubes.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Thanx for the name, I will have to research it more. Your right, I was thinking of preventing any chunks from getting to the engine, sounds kind of messy otherwise. Just blowing it down would be fine. Sure would be nice to not have to worry about corrosion or scale by just making an electrical circuit out of your steam system. It works in theroy, and with little current draw !
Nothing like low cholosterol in the tubes.
Peter Heid</HTML>
Re: Boiler Veins
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: March 26, 2002 11:11AM
<HTML>Hi Peter,
Then again, some scale (traces, like oil) may be a good thing after all -- note Pat's comments. I have a sign in kitchen: "My house is clean enough to be healthy, and dirty enough to be happy", seems to apply to steam cars too, except a little dirty=healthy. Enertec if they're still around, and there are a bunch of others too, I forget what the generic name for this stuff is. Ionic something or other, maybe GB remembers as he got me started researching this (and a million other things; I know he reads every post here, Hey GB).
BTW, long as I'm here (everybody), finished engine/axle/springs/pump drive/frame mockup and pump drive motion tests Friday. Woo hoo, finally. Extra pump cylinder clearance (for max suspension travel) is 9/16", rounding it up to 3/4 for safety (thank goodness for external pump priming). Now finalizing pump drawings; may redraw for billet instead of composite, steel may be fine with oily water & oil bath pump box. Finishing mockup got me into Serious Shop Mode, so should be building the real thing soon. Article for Steam Automobile Bulletin written tonite; photographer buddy with macro lens & digicam coming today/Wed for mockup pix with article, so hopefully next issue (join SACA now so you get it, nag, nag) :)
Peter</HTML>
Then again, some scale (traces, like oil) may be a good thing after all -- note Pat's comments. I have a sign in kitchen: "My house is clean enough to be healthy, and dirty enough to be happy", seems to apply to steam cars too, except a little dirty=healthy. Enertec if they're still around, and there are a bunch of others too, I forget what the generic name for this stuff is. Ionic something or other, maybe GB remembers as he got me started researching this (and a million other things; I know he reads every post here, Hey GB).
BTW, long as I'm here (everybody), finished engine/axle/springs/pump drive/frame mockup and pump drive motion tests Friday. Woo hoo, finally. Extra pump cylinder clearance (for max suspension travel) is 9/16", rounding it up to 3/4 for safety (thank goodness for external pump priming). Now finalizing pump drawings; may redraw for billet instead of composite, steel may be fine with oily water & oil bath pump box. Finishing mockup got me into Serious Shop Mode, so should be building the real thing soon. Article for Steam Automobile Bulletin written tonite; photographer buddy with macro lens & digicam coming today/Wed for mockup pix with article, so hopefully next issue (join SACA now so you get it, nag, nag) :)
Peter</HTML>
Re: Boiler Veins
Posted by: safwat dawood mehawse (IP Logged)
Date: December 09, 2004 08:56AM
<HTML>i want to take your support in cp works in boiler in hotels and shippment. i am elect. and cp eng. and have enough experience in this field.pls, answer to me</HTML>
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